Guild Wars 2

There is now absolutely zero reason to run this trait line or these utilities from the single build path it had prior. The line now offers less burst than DA and DrD. Fixed-bonus power is terrible on CS except for AA’ing in PvE and crit-chance increases are entirely redundant with HK and NQ basically doing the same thing.

Assassin’s signet and really the entire concept behind SoP is now worthless.

NJ ANet, you’ve managed to totally kill off the single most underpowered thief build and make it even less-rewarding and weaker than it was.

HF on Deadeye, which is now re-hashed Crit Strikes, lol. I’m done with thief.

I use Crit Strikes far more often than I use DA, Acro, or SA. These changes don’t effect me what-so-ever, soooo…maybe there’s no reason for you to run Crit Strikes with whatever build you were running. D/D, was it? I don’t see that changing very much from this…unless! Oh! Were you running the all signets Basilisk Venom → CnD → Backstab 1HKO build? Oh nooooooo, but that build was so engaging and full of skillful plays! What ever will you do now!?

Bye. HF with whatever next 1HKO build you feel like trying to champion.

“I’m done with thief.”

We’ll see. I remember you claiming similar things in the past, yet… Here you are.

LMAO SoP is now entirely useless. All of these idiotic bonuses “on kill” — are you kittening kidding me? Why not just delete the trait entirely?

I still use crit strikes line and have never used it for the Signets. IP is a beauty trait if in staff or P/P. The ferocity add from practiced tolerance an excellent trait. I have yet to test the new traits however I do use trickster with haste so I think I can generate 6~10 Might stacks constant with the new Assassins fury on an ongoing basis.

(haste utility will now get me 3 stacks might , fury , quickness and swiftness remove a condition and break stun on a 24 second cooldown. not bad at all)

That’s one less illogical nerd rager in this subforum…hopefully.

Turk.5460:

I use Crit Strikes far more often than I use DA, Acro, or SA. These changes don’t effect me what-so-ever, soooo…maybe there’s no reason for you to run Crit Strikes with whatever build you were running. D/D, was it? I don’t see that changing very much from this…unless! Oh! Were you running the all signets Basilisk Venom -> CnD -> Backstab 1HKO build? Oh nooooooo, but that build was so engaging and full of skillful plays! What ever will you do now!?

Bye. HF with whatever next 1HKO build you feel like trying to champion.

I mean yeah if you only gank when outnumbering the build is boring, but I frontline zergs so it’s extremely engaging because one mistake kills you. Popping all signets is a bad way to play the build as it was unless you knew you had the kill, anyways. Granted I wouldn’t expect anyone who doesn’t play it to really know how to make it work in most fights.

TwiceDead.1963:

“I’m done with thief.”

We’ll see. I remember you claiming similar things in the past, yet… Here you are.

I actually quit the game instead for like eight months, then played power reaper because it’s more fun.

I picked up thief maybe a few days ago for shiggles and good times, but at this point I’m definitely gone from it.

Tricks and signets are also receiving several changes to help them compete with the very powerful utility skills offered by deceptions and physicals

It’s funny that they mention a buff to Signets in the summary, and then nerf the Signets of Power trait. The trait was much more useful with might instead of the PVE oriented on-kill effects.

Luckily, I play S/D which was buffed pretty heavily in this patch.

I’m feeling a D/P critical strikes, shadow arts, VALKYRIE daredevil. Who’s with me?

Youre acting like we got the necros treatment

I co main a thief and a necros

Can you guess which one is getting put on the shelf because of the patch?

Stop whining

They had to nerf signets at some point. Even I was two shotting others while I didn’t play signets. I don’t really get why side strikes was nerfed though, but alas.
The problem in wvw still remains the same – the damage is too high and has been ever since they removed the stats from the traitlines.

Lord Velar.1509:

I co main a thief and a necros

Deceiver does as well and D/P is pretty much unaffected by this patch whereas D/D took another hit.

crit strikes is insane with pp. perma 25 might stacks with sigil and strength runes.

Jana.6831:

Lord Velar.1509:

I co main a thief and a necros

Deceiver does as well and D/P is pretty much unaffected by this patch whereas D/D took another hit.

my point was that op is sitting here acting like they ruined the class, necros players have a right to kitten right now, I hopped on me thief and it felt the exact same as it did yesterday

Lord Velar.1509:

Jana.6831:

Lord Velar.1509:

I co main a thief and a necros

Deceiver does as well and D/P is pretty much unaffected by this patch whereas D/D took another hit.

my point was that op is sitting here acting like they ruined the class, necros players have a right to kitten right now, I hopped on me thief and it felt the exact same as it did yesterday

If you didn’t play CS signets it was all buffs.
I played berserker SoS power reaper as a primary since HoT. Power necro is equally dead from the nerfs from inadequacy or in this case, downright removal from the game.

im actually really liking my valkyrie, shadow, crit, trickery D/P build

If you want to main Necro…

slowly points at Vital Persistence nerf

they changed the power signet to give 540 power on active, so they basically allowed us still get tons of damage without having to run the signet might build. I personally really like the changes since 7% crit chance/damage on a single passive and 2 seconds of 100% crit after leaving stealth is fun

Ramoth.9064:

I’m feeling a D/P critical strikes, shadow arts, VALKYRIE daredevil. Who’s with me?

And i’ve tried this but used D/D. Sad to say it has a lot of issues since trickery is king and needs to be used in almost every build. 30 second cd on steal, no daze, 3 less initiative, no initiative gain on steal, no lead attacks for 15% extra damage is a pretty big hindrance.
However if you’re a god at initiative management you might be able to get away with less.

I will tell you the same thing I tell my QQ guild mates when their builds get nerfed/changed…

“It sucks having a build get nerfed. Some people remember my scrapper build that was far from meta but was my build… no else that I have ever seen in WvW or PvP ran it so it was my baby, but it was nerfed. I was devastated as I poured a lot of time/energy/gold in gear/food…etc. Instead of crying/venting on the forums, I did what any smart gamer does and I Adapted. I made new builds for my toons and found love in a few classes I threw away before. Learn to adapt. Stuff changes. Git gud with another build or class and you will find something else you will enjoy. It may take time so patience is vital, but it will happen…now…WHO WANTS BACON?”

CreedOfGod.9764:

they changed the power signet to give 540 power on active, so they basically allowed us still get tons of damage without having to run the signet might build. I personally really like the changes since 7% crit chance/damage on a single passive and 2 seconds of 100% crit after leaving stealth is fun

Ramoth.9064:

I’m feeling a D/P critical strikes, shadow arts, VALKYRIE daredevil. Who’s with me?

And i’ve tried this but used D/D. Sad to say it has a lot of issues since trickery is king and needs to be used in almost every build. 30 second cd on steal, no daze, 3 less initiative, no initiative gain on steal, no lead attacks for 15% extra damage is a pretty big hindrance.
However if you’re a god at initiative management you might be able to get away with less.

All it would take to open up a world of new possibilities is to get rid of preparedness and give Thieves +3 initiative permanently.

Use a different variant

Shadow trap (traited) 15 stacks of might.
The new fury trait (which is sick) will replace Signet’s of power (which is now useless).
There is your 25 stacks, plus fury.

If you didn’t play since the patch it’s not surprising you would think the change to Daggerstorm and Signet’s are garbage. before i tested them i would of agreed with you.
(The signet change is horrible yes, but like i said, it’s replaceable now)

s/d thief’s are going to be monster’s if this new traitline has boontheft like the rumors say. count yourself lucky that most s/d thiefs are running some ridiculously condition spec atm.

*Edit had 20 instead of 15

Turk.5460:

All it would take to open up a world of new possibilities is to get rid of preparedness and give Thieves +3 initiative permanently.

YUP. could change preparedness to initiative regen/10 seconds to compensate

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I will tell you the same thing I tell my QQ guild mates when their builds get nerfed/changed…

“It sucks having a build get nerfed. Some people remember my scrapper build that was far from meta but was my build… no else that I have ever seen in WvW or PvP ran it so it was my baby, but it was nerfed. I was devastated as I poured a lot of time/energy/gold in gear/food…etc. Instead of crying/venting on the forums, I did what any smart gamer does and I Adapted. I made new builds for my toons and found love in a few classes I threw away before. Learn to adapt. Stuff changes. Git gud with another build or class and you will find something else you will enjoy. It may take time so patience is vital, but it will happen…now…WHO WANTS BACON?”

I was dual maining into power reaper. Those are honestly really the only two builds I enjoy.

The latter this patch basically got removed from the game, so yeah. I’ve run pretty much every possible build in the game and prior to yesterday I only really enjoyed at most three of them. I’d rather actually just not play than adapt at this point because there’s actually nothing left to adapt to.

Highlie.7641:

Use a different variant

Shadow trap (traited) 15 stacks of might.
The new fury trait (which is sick) will replace Signet’s of power (which is now useless).
There is your 25 stacks, plus fury.

If you didn’t play since the patch it’s not surprising you would think the change to Daggerstorm and Signet’s are garbage. before i tested them i would of agreed with you.
(The signet change is horrible yes, but like i said, it’s replaceable now)

s/d thief’s are going to be monster’s if this new traitline has boontheft like the rumors say. count yourself lucky that most s/d thiefs are running some ridiculously condition spec atm.

*Edit had 20 instead of 15

The might is regained but ASignet is lost which negates most of the gained damage from this activation. I was already running 3.3k power without might so the bonus power is basically pointless as it accounts for only a small portion of outgoing damage via power.

I tried running shadow trap a long time ago. It’s a trash utility and only procs might on trigger and has much too large of a cast time which unless you’re in sPvP doesn’t happen and sucks for playing a nuke build, especially when frontlining WvW zergs without stability.

There really is no replacement unless I play to optimize further into a one-trick which negates the ability for thr build to function outside of ganking which I dislike doing and find boring. D/P can get the same performance but I absolutely hate playing the set – which is why I moved to reaper to begin with.

ANet is completely and totally clueless in their balancing. Really aside from the thief things that were intended to be improved got net-nerfed HARD.

DeceiverX.8361:

ANet is completely and totally clueless in their balancing. Really aside from the thief things that were intended to be improved got net-nerfed HARD.

Wrong. The correct items were buffed, and gimmick items were nerfed.

If my message wasn’t clear in my first reply, let me expand: 1HKO builds are toxic and unhealthy for this game. They are non-interactive and even less interesting to fight (if you can even call it a “fight”) than full dire/tb s/sh chronomancers. The only thing wrong with these changes is that the 1HKO build still exists, albeit less able to stack 25might on its own.

CS is hardly useless.It performs better now then it did before and In fact I might pull more of my power thief builds out of DA and into CS.

I do think the SOP trait is subpar even though I had not used it any any case. It was very much like a venom build in that it took up too many utility slots which could be used for skills better suited a given build.

On kill stuff just does not work all that well in game terms and what they gave for on kill is just not worth it. The on kill benefits have to increase significantly or those listed should kick in on use along with the other actives along with a smaller increase in listed befits.

As example ON kill Assassins should be 10 stacks might. On KILL Infiltrators 6 Ini.

Or On use Assassins 5 stacks might. On use Infiltrators 3 ini. That they broke them up to each provide a different benefit is IMHO a good thing.

DeceiverX.8361:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I will tell you the same thing I tell my QQ guild mates when their builds get nerfed/changed…

“It sucks having a build get nerfed. Some people remember my scrapper build that was far from meta but was my build… no else that I have ever seen in WvW or PvP ran it so it was my baby, but it was nerfed. I was devastated as I poured a lot of time/energy/gold in gear/food…etc. Instead of crying/venting on the forums, I did what any smart gamer does and I Adapted. I made new builds for my toons and found love in a few classes I threw away before. Learn to adapt. Stuff changes. Git gud with another build or class and you will find something else you will enjoy. It may take time so patience is vital, but it will happen…now…WHO WANTS BACON?”

I was dual maining into power reaper. Those are honestly really the only two builds I enjoy.

The latter this patch basically got removed from the game, so yeah. I’ve run pretty much every possible build in the game and prior to yesterday I only really enjoyed at most three of them. I’d rather actually just not play than adapt at this point because there’s actually nothing left to adapt to.

With all changes, there is always something different to adapt to, however your refusal to acknowledge this, already indicates you don’t care either way and maybe you just need a break.

Hell, I went through every adaptations twice before I opened my eyes to thief. Your mentality to want/need to adapt plays a big part. If you are not mentally ready, you will continue to feel the same way you do.

Either way, bacon helps.

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

Ive always used DA< however a guildie uses CS…how did DA help more than CS so I can relay it to him?

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

Ive always used DA< however a guildie uses CS…how did DA help more than CS so I can relay it to him?

Not my question and my question was directed to babazook who wanted to switch from DA to CS.

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

As stated I did not use signets of power prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

The new trait stacks might whenever you apply fury. If you trait up multiple sources of fury (this including no quarter and unrelenting strikes out of same line) you can generate might stacking and the amount not insignificant if your build has some boon duration.

Now I have not used d/d power in a long time but the change to hidden killer should be much for useful to those builds as you not only get that initial 100 percent crit from stealth , but it lingers an added two seconds for followups. I think you well know that after a backstab a d/d thief generally does an AA chain and this means all of that chain and more will crit.

babazhook.6805:

As stated I did not use signets prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

I honestly didn’t realize this I thought they were replaced by the might trait. Changed my gear because I though side strikes was gone – oh my. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I’m not really sure if it’s really better than DA – I’ll probably test it for a bit. If the wvw queue lets me that is.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

As stated I did not use signets prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

I honestly didn’t realize this I thought they were replaced by the might trait. Changed my gear because I though side strikes was gone – oh my. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
I’m not really sure if it’s really better than DA – I’ll probably test it for a bit. If the wvw queue lets me that is.

I think when it comes to a which is better, a lot depends on weapons chosen either hand, how long you stick to them and the rest of your build.

IE I have a build with some added boon duration and because he gets fury (and now might) out of CS while there no boons in DA (unless he takes deadly trapper)he does better using CS.

if you still in d/d power you MIGHT want to try the new hidden killer

I should test this. Ive always tried to push as much damage as I could, but also giving myself some vit to survive. DA was stronger than CS for me, however if it lingers for a few seconds, that would be deadly (I also take Revealed Training from DA which really helps)

babazhook.6805:

I think when it comes to a which is better, a lot depends on weapons chosen either hand, how long you stick to them and the rest of your build.

IE I have a build with some added boon duration and because he gets fury (and now might) out of CS while there no boons in DA (unless he takes deadly trapper)he does better using CS.

if you still in d/d power you MIGHT want to try the new hidden killer

I’m so used to CnD and steal that it’s hard to get away from it.
Yesterday EU was shut out of the game and I was: “Why did they nerf CiS, did they finally put it in master and just forgot to announce it” – so I’m somehow still stuck at that and it’ll take a while until I realized all that’s new. I’m using thrill of the crime, that’s where I got fury from but the trait was rather underwhelming – the damage modifiers in DA are way more than CS could ever bring.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I should test this. Ive always tried to push as much damage as I could, but also giving myself some vit to survive. DA was stronger than CS for me, however if it lingers for a few seconds, that would be deadly (I also take Revealed Training from DA which really helps)

I really think the biggest loss out of DA is the poison on steal specifically if a given build has no other poison access. That said with my p/p staff build, CS is a no brainer as in that one I take IP and IP is so functional in that build.

I do not PvP but in WvW IP makes a world of difference. You can live long enough to get that damage in.

babazhook.6805:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I should test this. Ive always tried to push as much damage as I could, but also giving myself some vit to survive. DA was stronger than CS for me, however if it lingers for a few seconds, that would be deadly (I also take Revealed Training from DA which really helps)

I really think the biggest loss out of DA is the poison on steal specifically if a given build has no other poison access. That said with my p/p staff build, CS is a no brainer as in that one I take IP and IP is so functional in that build.

I do not PvP but in WvW IP makes a world of difference. You can live long enough to get that damage in.

Damage wise (this is where the math nerd comes out of me), it seems that DA is still better than CS (math was used using full marauder and full zerk). CS does offer some nice sustain and decent pressure if you are using pistols (which I am…im currently doing the math to see if the CS line is stronger (again damage wise) when using pistols over DA.)

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

babazhook.6805:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

I should test this. Ive always tried to push as much damage as I could, but also giving myself some vit to survive. DA was stronger than CS for me, however if it lingers for a few seconds, that would be deadly (I also take Revealed Training from DA which really helps)

I really think the biggest loss out of DA is the poison on steal specifically if a given build has no other poison access. That said with my p/p staff build, CS is a no brainer as in that one I take IP and IP is so functional in that build.

I do not PvP but in WvW IP makes a world of difference. You can live long enough to get that damage in.

Damage wise (this is where the math nerd comes out of me), it seems that DA is still better than CS (math was used using full marauder and full zerk). CS does offer some nice sustain and decent pressure if you are using pistols (which I am…im currently doing the math to see if the CS line is stronger (again damage wise) when using pistols over DA.)

I think there too much to factor in when it comes to making a direct comparison to CONCLUSIVELY claim DA does more damage. IE taking the best case scenario out of DA (opponent under 50 percent health) for executioner distrots the calculations.

What the relative crit rate and ferocity is factors in as well, how fast your attacks come in and the like. I know a lot of poeple use Golems for tests , but these are hardly reflections as to what really happens in the game when facing a live opponent.

I tend to rely on going back and forth back and forth and back and forth to arrive at the conclsuion as to what works best for my build and style.

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

As stated I did not use signets of power prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

The new trait stacks might whenever you apply fury. If you trait up multiple sources of fury (this including no quarter and unrelenting strikes out of same line) you can generate might stacking and the amount not insignificant if your build has some boon duration.

Now I have not used d/d power in a long time but the change to hidden killer should be much for useful to those builds as you not only get that initial 100 percent crit from stealth , but it lingers an added two seconds for followups. I think you well know that after a backstab a d/d thief generally does an AA chain and this means all of that chain and more will crit.

@Jana when you run the numbers DA is still better burst-wise and largely always has been via Mug. CS only accelerated damage via signets or from sustained damage from crits. The line is otherwise not good, particularly given DA’s utility and defense bonuses from Lotus.

@Baba D/D doesn’t benefit from HK any more than it used to, really. Unlike D/P the target should be finished off with the backstab due to CnD’s high damage. An AA or two would have otherwise been made crits from ToTC/Fury and Flanking Strikes, boosted by extra prec from SoA that a lot of people run. NQ is pretty nuch always better, especially now that marauder closes this power gap much quicker now than before due to the reworked sharpening stones scaling precision.

The food changes also nerfs Valkyrie indirectly as Furious Oil is no longer a thing which further plays into NQ and Marauder over anything core. PT is now a no-gain/no-equal for non-precision builds which again makes HK rather pointless.

DrD on the top end with AS in marauder will out-damage CS valkyrie ij both sustained and burst damage. CS actually has little use outside of PvE.

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

As stated I did not use signets of power prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

The new trait stacks might whenever you apply fury. If you trait up multiple sources of fury (this including no quarter and unrelenting strikes out of same line) you can generate might stacking and the amount not insignificant if your build has some boon duration.

Now I have not used d/d power in a long time but the change to hidden killer should be much for useful to those builds as you not only get that initial 100 percent crit from stealth , but it lingers an added two seconds for followups. I think you well know that after a backstab a d/d thief generally does an AA chain and this means all of that chain and more will crit.

@Jana when you run the numbers DA is still better burst-wise and largely always has been via Mug. CS only accelerated damage via signets or from sustained damage from crits. The line is otherwise not good, particularly given DA’s utility and defense bonuses from Lotus.

@Baba D/D doesn’t benefit from HK any more than it used to, really. Unlike D/P the target should be finished off with the backstab due to CnD’s high damage. An AA or two would have otherwise been made crits from ToTC/Fury and Flanking Strikes, boosted by extra prec from SoA that a lot of people run. NQ is pretty nuch always better, especially now that marauder closes this power gap much quicker now than before due to the reworked sharpening stones scaling precision.

The food changes also nerfs Valkyrie indirectly as Furious Oil is no longer a thing which further plays into NQ and Marauder over anything core. PT is now a no-gain/no-equal for non-precision builds which again makes HK rather pointless.

DrD on the top end with AS in marauder will out-damage CS valkyrie ij both sustained and burst damage. CS actually has little use outside of PvE.

DeceiverX.8361:

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

I just switched to DA and am amazed that it works better than CS – how does it work better than before the patch and better than DA?

As stated I did not use signets of power prior. in old CS Flawless stikes and side strikes were separate. There are now combined into one meaning you get the benefits of both in one trait. This is definitely an improvement as one or the other was weak on its own in old system.

The new trait stacks might whenever you apply fury. If you trait up multiple sources of fury (this including no quarter and unrelenting strikes out of same line) you can generate might stacking and the amount not insignificant if your build has some boon duration.

Now I have not used d/d power in a long time but the change to hidden killer should be much for useful to those builds as you not only get that initial 100 percent crit from stealth , but it lingers an added two seconds for followups. I think you well know that after a backstab a d/d thief generally does an AA chain and this means all of that chain and more will crit.

@Jana when you run the numbers DA is still better burst-wise and largely always has been via Mug. CS only accelerated damage via signets or from sustained damage from crits. The line is otherwise not good, particularly given DA’s utility and defense bonuses from Lotus.

@Baba D/D doesn’t benefit from HK any more than it used to, really. Unlike D/P the target should be finished off with the backstab due to CnD’s high damage. An AA or two would have otherwise been made crits from ToTC/Fury and Flanking Strikes, boosted by extra prec from SoA that a lot of people run. NQ is pretty nuch always better, especially now that marauder closes this power gap much quicker now than before due to the reworked sharpening stones scaling precision.

The food changes also nerfs Valkyrie indirectly as Furious Oil is no longer a thing which further plays into NQ and Marauder over anything core. PT is now a no-gain/no-equal for non-precision builds which again makes HK rather pointless.

DrD on the top end with AS in marauder will out-damage CS valkyrie ij both sustained and burst damage. CS actually has little use outside of PvE.

I rarely play in Pve. I am not going to take your word for it when I can test the relative merits of each on my own builds used in WvW each and every day.

To your comments on Lotus just as example. This is on a 10 second cooldown predicated upon applying Poison. If your weaponset does not have access to poison it much less useful trait as you will get 4 seconds weakness on at best a 21 second cooldown. Staff and p/p do not have poison and Staff has much better access to weakness via the Drd line. as such lotus is of no real benefit.

Lotus also does not benefit s/x as much as that set has no poison access outside the steal. 4 seconds of weakness on an opponent is not going to mitigate a lot of damage or cause a lot of endurance loss. Added to that if in DrD you can have much better and reliable access to weakness. Sword also has weakness added in one of its attacks so I fail to see why Lotus poion all thet beneficial.

To the damage on Mug. Again this is a 21 second cooldown. This is not sustained added damage anymore then is the executioner trait which only works at opponets under 50 percent. Attacking faster with high crit rate for ferocity procs is sustained damage. If you get a 4k hit from the mug , that akin to 200 added damage per second, not a heck of a lot in the great scheme of things.Mug is in fact idle for 20+ seconds and not usable during that time. Very few traits in CS shut down for 21 seconds. None in fact. It has always been my opinion that the more traits you have on long cooldowns, the weaker your overall build. (this hardly means they should never be taken . it means the total number have to be minimized)

That said it is very nice as a finisher for people low in health and fleeing.

To Backstab and CnD combo. You do not finish all builds with such. I have faced a pile of those in my time here on various builds and survived a good many of them. The linger effect works on any reveal meaning on reveal you get 2 seconds of 100 percent crits. So compare it to Revealed training , a similar skill out of DA.

3 seconds of +200 power or 2 seconds of 100 percent crit is not cut and dried in Rts favor , especially when one considers all of the on crit traits and sigils that are available.

Lotus benefits all builds. Weakness is 50% reduced incoming damage. It’s free opportunity to make trades and subsequently win without needing to dodge or burn resources when not necessary. It also cuts endurance regen which makes outgoing hits more consistent. The rest of DA is also just bettter.

Again, I already said CS is better sustained damage. More than once. That much is obvious. But last I checked outside of condi builds and old s/x with old acro, tempo and sustained damage were not the thief’s viable means of killing opponents, especially now with defensive powercreep.

Yes it’s a 20s cooldown. But BV is 40s and nobody complains that it doesn’t enable enough damage for a kill. PvP is not a DPS race. It’s about mixing burst when your opponent can’t retaliate. This even includes condi play.

Again, CS doesn’t need the critical chance in HK. It’s redundant. Take NQ, have basically the same rate, and deal substantially more damage.

I’m not even sure ehy you’d argue RT. The trait is bad outside of PvE or ganking, especially on D/D which doesn’t have the AA freedom you think it does unlike D/P when playing against skilled opponents.

I know you want to tell me it’s all fine but I’ve never not played without CS outside of testing other builds or on my troll condi thief. I’ve calculated everything hundreds of times. In the PvP context, DA is and has always been substantially better and CS a DPS PvE traitline outside of acting as a crit-fixer, which again these days is rather pointless.

Assassin’s fury with no quater synergises nicely with strength runes and the added boon duration now found in acrobatics. Now when you’re done shortbowing, you can jump in with 25 stacks of might. It’s a nice change. It makes critical strikes more worth it for sword, whereas deadly arts always favoured DP with its 10% modifer requiring a condition to be applied.

The 200ms removal from infiltrator’s return is unnoticeable. When they made it have a cast time they said it would not be noticeable for usage, and is only there to prevent use while cc’d. There is still a noticeable delay. At least they made flanking strikes unblockable so larcenous can be used as it was before they split the skill. Swiftness no longer affecting flanking strikes still hurts a lot, though.

Another try: You’re both (Deceiver and Babazook) right. It doesn’t only depend on the set but also the playstyle – if you’re used to switch weapons quite a lot and use utility, then DA is probably better. If you rely on a few timed hits, then CS is. The new trait is a beauty and wheras I’ve had ~9k backstabs on glassy necros I’ve now got higher than 10k. So it is a very nice buff and actually stresses the playstyle it’s ‘designed’ for.

So after doing math, I found CS is better for quick power bursts from stealth due to Hidden Killer, however if you don’t stealth often enough, DA reigns DPS supreme.

Unfortunately I do not know how long Hidden Killer lingers for, however the overall damage output between DA and CS shows DA as more reliable. Where I take Revealed Training myself, the damage difference pulls a bit more in DA’s favor overall.

Both traitlines have great abilities that can greatly help

DA = heal on steal, steal does damage, poison on steal and extra damage on conditioned enemies

CS = Extra fero means more damage, heal when you crit (if you choose that) or guaranteed crits from stealth and extra crit chance outside stealth

With my playstyle, what DA brings is better than what CS does, although that initial BS burst is better with CS, what happens after (if they didnt down) DA is a bit better for the after fight.

Math was based on Full Marauder stats, Scholar runes and no food to make it as fair as possible. Also other traits were used in these trait lines, however this is based on max DPS. Obv different stat sets will make this vary, and playstyle will make a difference as well, however looking at every aspect and what each brings for every situation, DA provides a bit better overall damage/utility the longer the fight goes.

Jana.6831:

Another try: You’re both (Deceiver and Babazook) right. It doesn’t only depend on the set but also the playstyle – if you’re used to switch weapons quite a lot and use utility, then DA is probably better. If you rely on a few timed hits, then CS is. The new trait is a beauty and wheras I’ve had ~9k backstabs on glassy necros I’ve now got higher than 10k. So it is a very nice buff and actually stresses the playstyle it’s ‘designed’ for.

Which new one Jana? I am curious as to what you have tried again. Currently I am going back and forth between the new Might Stacker (assassins fury) and the new and improved combined one which now called twin fangs and hard to decide which I prefer.

Assuming you run high power, Twin Fangs will be substantially better than Assassin’s Fury unless you’re partied with a Herald pooping out fury.

Impact.2780:

Assassin’s fury with no quater synergises nicely with strength runes and the added boon duration now found in acrobatics. Now when you’re done shortbowing, you can jump in with 25 stacks of might. It’s a nice change. It makes critical strikes more worth it for sword, whereas deadly arts always favoured DP with its 10% modifer requiring a condition to be applied.

The 200ms removal from infiltrator’s return is unnoticeable. When they made it have a cast time they said it would not be noticeable for usage, and is only there to prevent use while cc’d. There is still a noticeable delay. At least they made flanking strikes unblockable so larcenous can be used as it was before they split the skill. Swiftness no longer affecting flanking strikes still hurts a lot, though.

Yes my own boon duration build can go into Acro and get boon durations to 72 percent. Using a sigil of concentration pushes this over 100 percent on swap. This gives significant fury and might out of the CS line.

THAT said In order to do that I have to drop DrD or TR meaning no staff.

Right now it not an easy call but I am certainly enjoying trying the builds out as there seems to be a few more options for core than before.

DeceiverX.8361:

Assuming you run high power, Twin Fangs will be substantially better than Assassin’s Fury unless you’re partied with a Herald pooping out fury.

If I had zero boon duration in build I would agree but my test build high boon duration and and can get a lot of those might stacks on in short order.

If you have boon duration AF isn’t worth it because your base power or other modifier-accrued (or really lack thereof) damage isn’t worth ramping with the modifiers.

Especially since AF only applies to critical hits.

Actually I’d suggest to drop CS entirely because you won’t get that much good stuff from scaling crits; DA will be miles better.

babazhook.6805:

Which new one Jana? I am curious as to what you have tried again. Currently I am going back and forth between the new Might Stacker (assassins fury) and the new and improved combined one which now called twin fangs and hard to decide which I prefer.

Twin fangs with D/D.