[Raid] Condition Build

[Raid] Condition Build

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

Out of luck or pity or maybe both, I got a spot as a condi DD in a Raid.

Using a bit of my brains and using my build we got a nice DPS as a whole, which resulted in getting to the first splitphase by 6:50 and ending the splitphase completly by 6:00.

As I want to encourage Raids taking a Thief along, I made a build on Metabattle so for promoting and fine tune the build I want to share the link here.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Bleeding_Venom_Share

On a side note: This was more or less a random group, not a permanent constellation (neither in players, nor classes)

(edited by Rai.9625)

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

I’ll recommend Deadly arts over trickery, the 33% poison damage increase is too good to pass.

Here’s a thread I’ve made some time ago: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Optimal-Venomshare-Raid-Critique-needed/first#post5812429

And here’s the build. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-TxSAQBRU9nLpEMaPAABu/Q6MHkRlfBUfQ/OEAA4EAANTOe4IAQKAYWWB-e

+100% poison duration, +87% bleed duration

This might be as high as you can get for a condition thief, until Asc Viper amulets come out, but take my claim with a grain of salt.

But honestly, berserker staff Daredevil outdamages condi-DD. The numbers we can do with Zerk Staff is insane, with roughly 20-25k DPS with 0 downtime if played correctly.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Blackhat.4016

Blackhat.4016

Did you kill Gorseval with that build yet? I’m not trying to be rude but Vale Guardian is rather easy and therefore a bad target to truly test your build. I know MightyTeapot was running a similar build for the raid which seemed to work well.

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Posted by: Molch.2078

Molch.2078

But honestly, berserker staff Daredevil outdamages condi-DD. The numbers we can do with Zerk Staff is insane, with roughly 20-25k DPS with 0 downtime if played correctly.

Do you have any numbers/guides/spreadsheeds/whatever as proof?

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

So I made some Spreadsheets for my condi build and the one of EazyPanda.
Of course highly idealistic, assuming 25stacks of might and 25 stacks of vuln.

My build can get around 11,4k dps

EazyPanda around 12k dps

Both without the burning with whirling thru firefields! And in my raidgroup I’ve seen 4-6k burning ticks every now and then, so it shouldn’t be underestimated.

BUT EazyPandas Build would only have that DPS, if he maintained Lotus Training… which he can’t properly (though it will get better if he switches the healing Skill to channeled vigor)

If we switch the Trinkets from Viper to Sinister the DPS will drop down to 11,6k

Still with the problem of maintaining lotus training to possibly drop down below 11k in the long run

[s}If we swap the trinkets on my build to viper, it will go up to 11,7k dps[/s]

If I swap Malice Sigil for Agony…. it will go up to 12k

Though Agony won’t buff burning… so I would say: Both builds are quite similar in DPS, though the maintaining could be alot more easier on my build. And… I didn’t implemented the multiplier of Lead Attacks into my Sheet…
and of course I can Burst more often, which means if something went a bit out of perfect, my Burst should help me to get a higher DPS in a true fight.

:D

Maybe doing D/D sheet and Staff sheet next ^^

Sheets:
my build
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mqrT62_JYSo5Lm_jFmr7Ar3zsJI99TnXQyC9OiSv1Ys/edit?usp=sharing

EazyPanda
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CvWUFk4Bsg7VJo_9dlZ74K8SmfcDG0sObBIm1lu00Ng/edit?usp=sharing

(edited by Rai.9625)

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Posted by: Serious Thought.5394

Serious Thought.5394

If everyone in your group holds 7k dps, VG isn’t a problem theoretically. Just saying =P

Worst Thief in the world, yes I am.

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

xD so tired I forgot the most valuable effect of Venom Share… the Share.

That was my initial error in thinking ^^"

so Updated

my Build around 13,5k DPS (without burning, without moving damage from torment)

EazyPanda around 15,3k (switch to channeled vigor needed), without Lotus Training DPS will go down to ~14.1k.

With Torment on moving Damage you’ll get around 17k DPS… and with the Fire/Confusion thru whirling you may get 17,5 to 18k.

On EazyPandas Build: If you switch to sinister trinkets and using malice instead of agony, you’ll get 15k DPS, again without moving Torment damage and whirl finisher

Which means in my opinion you don’t have to craft the quite expensive Viper exotic trinkets, if you have the Sinister Ascended though it is an increase of 2,7%

Updated Version:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-TRSAQBRU9nLpEEbK/i2DAQg7PEQ9B97QAAgTAgHOCAkCAmlVA-e

~400DPS more:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-TxSAQBRU9nLpEMaPAABu/Q6MHkRlfBUfQ/OEAA4EAANTOe4IAQKAYWWB-e

(edited by Rai.9625)

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

But honestly, berserker staff Daredevil outdamages condi-DD. The numbers we can do with Zerk Staff is insane, with roughly 20-25k DPS with 0 downtime if played correctly.

Do you have any numbers/guides/spreadsheeds/whatever as proof?

I’d take a video of me raiding, but since i’m using a 3-year old laptop to play, my framerates drops to 12 fps when I’m recording. I’ll take some screenshots when my guildmates and I raid within these few days.

But I’m gonna estimate a lot here and give you some numbers.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAWVn8lCFOhNOBWmCkmiFaCbLPNc2TzVwN4IULAMhiAA-TBSBABP8AAoU9HzUCe1+jyv8PEA4pLQjjAAAXAASBMwyI-e
This is the build I’m using. I might switch the heal to SoM, or swap No Quarter for Invigoration Precision for more heals.

Considering all this takes place in an optimal situation,
25 stack of might,
25 stacks of vulnerability,
Warrior Banners and Empower Allies,
+10% damage food,
Druid Frost Spirit +10% and Glyph and Grace of the Land,
Revenant’s Assassin’s Presence,

all our modifiers working :
bound dodge +10%, (after dodging)
Scholar bonus +10% (us at +90% hp),
Flawless strikes +7%, (us at +90% hp),
Ferocious Strkes +10% (enemy above 50%) or Executioner +20% (enemy below 50%),
Exposed weakness +10%, (enemy with a condition, which is 100% of the time)
Havoc Mastery +7%, (in melee, duh)
Staff master +10%, (in staff, duh)
occasionally popping Assassin’s Signet +15% when Mesmers are calling out Alacraty.
(yes, it’s a lot of modifiers)

The following situation is in a non-burst situation (no coordination with druids popping their glyphs)
Note, I’m using Exotic armor (swapped my ascended to Vipers), but with Asc trinkets and Weapon, so the numbers I’ve put forward should be 2-3% less then it would be in ascended gear (with makes little difference tbh).

I was able to deal around 10+k per hit of Weakening charge (without Executioner), which deals x3 hits.
That is around roughly 30k per Weakening Charge, or 10k damage per initiative.
A Weakening Charge cast time is 1/2 a second.
Our bound dodge deals roughly 18k damage per dodge. The dodge is 3/4 seconds long.
Our Auto-attack chain deals roughly 36k damage per chain, and takes around 2.5 seconds to complete the chain.

My damage rotation for the Vale guardian is Bound > Weakening Charge x3 > Auto-attack chain x1.5 (skip halfway) > Bound ~repeat. (This is NOT the optimum damage rotation, but the optimum dmg rotation gets me killed in Vale. This rotation is tailored for VG alone)

The whole rotation takes around 3/4s + (3 × 1/2s) +(1.5 × 2.5s) = 6 seconds, so lets say 7 seconds to pull off, with the possibility of non-optimal rotations.
By the end of 7 seconds, we would have regenerated 7 initiative, hence allowing us to pull off the rotation again without much loss of initiative, and unless you are landing perfect dps rotations without any wasted time, your initiative will last you for a more then 4-5 rotations.
We will have plentiful Dodges, as our staff skills refills endurance, and we can always steal when we really need more dodges, as well as having SoA.

Total damage dealt over 6 seconds is around 18k+ (3 × 30k) + (1.5 × 36k) = 162k

Total DPS = (162k / 7s) = 23k DPS

Note, this is just from numbers on the top of my head, during the FIRST phase of Vale (the one I did the most, in full disclosure), which means no Executioner Buff (+20% dmg).
And these numbers might be slightly higher then usual, as i do not have 100% +10% dmg modifier from Bound.
And note that these numbers are not in a coordinated burst rotation, but rather in a stable phase, and we can keep up this DPS for a very long time, long enough to last through boss phases.

So until i DO get a better PC to record, or have time to play in the coming weekend to take screenshots, you’ll unfortunately have to take my word for it.

-snip-

To be honest, I’m actually using Rabid Trinkets, because I’m cheap

But the build I made is supposed to be optimal, so eh. :P

Nice going making the sheets. Personally I don’t really ever use Excel, so spreadsheets are beyond me =)

Edit: Spelling =X

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

(edited by EazyPanda.6419)

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Posted by: Oxygen.5918

Oxygen.5918

Screenshots or video, please.

I was the best at burning things. Especially bosses that
didn’t move.

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Posted by: Molch.2078

Molch.2078

No needs to do screens or videos, those numbers are believable. But there is a bit of a problem.

All dps calculation from guilds like DnT are done against targets with 2600 armor. Maybe Vale has less than 2.6k armor. And I’m pretty sure they dont assume all of the ranger buffs all the time.

Now, I dont know exactly what assumptions DnT’s number people use, but I know what I use and I get roughly the same results as they do. And with your rotation, against a raidboss with 2600 Armor, I calculated ~14.8k DPS. That’s more than a revenant autoattackig on sword, without quickness. But quickness is a thing, and rev can do a lot more that autoattacking, actually.

(edited by Molch.2078)

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

a revenant autoattackig on sword, without quickness

I think that anyone who gives a kitten has seen the youtube videos with revs AA-ing for 7-10k while providing great group utility.

Thief is not the only profession that has this problem.
Maybe the future balance patch will address some of this… features.

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

No needs to do screens or videos, those numbers are believable. But there is a bit of a problem.

All dps calculation from guilds like DnT are done against targets with 2600 armor. Maybe Vale has less than 2.6k armor. And I’m pretty sure they dont assume all of the ranger buffs all the time.

Now, I dont know exactly what assumptions DnT’s number people use, but I know what I use and I get the same results as they do. And with your rotation, against a raidboss with 2600 Armor, I calculated ~14.8k DPS. That’s a revenant autoattackig on sword, without quickness. And rev can do a lot more that autoattacking, actually.

I’m not sure I follow. =/

The numbers I’ve used are the numbers I’m seeing in the raid itself, not a target golem.
I’m hitting a solid 30k per weakening charge on the Vale guardian itself.
So technically, the numbers I’ve put up are the actual DPS numbers on the Vale Guardian.
I personally do not know how much toughness VG has, nor does it matter.
And the numbers I’m using are not with Druid’s Buffs, its the steady damage I’m getting with passive buffs alone.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

@EazyPanda: your build was almost optimal, only the healing skill was suboptimal. Channeled Vigor gives you endurance (upkeep Lotus Training) and has a shorter cd, more needle trap because of the cd reduction.

As I designed my build, I really actually forgot to put the shared venoms into the equotation… xD and in that case the dmg was close enough.

I did Vale on Zerker D/D and got a rota including bounding dodger and got 30k+ backstabs easily. Which gets roughly 20k DPS.

Staff is roughly 15-20% higher in DPS, which I concluded by a short test on dummies in Silverwastes and seems to match infield/inraid.

Probably going to make some spreadsheets xD

And yea: Valeguardian probably has around 1900k armor (light armor). Made a fast spreadsheet and tinkered with the numbers and multipliers to get to similar stats when I was zerker in the raid. to get a over 30k backstab I had to lower the armor to this level (though as i made that quick it may be highly inacurate).

(edited by Rai.9625)

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

@EazyPanda: your build was almost optimal, only the healing skill was suboptimal. Channeled Vigor gives you endurance (upkeep Lotus Training) and has a shorter cd, more needle trap because of the cd reduction.

As I designed my build, I really actually forgot to put the shared venoms into the equotation… xD and in that case the dmg was close enough.

I did Vale on Zerker D/D and got a rota including bounding dodger and got 30k+ backstabs easily. Which gets roughly 20k DPS.

Staff is roughly 15-20% higher in DPS, which I concluded by a short test on dummies in Silverwastes and seems to match infield/inraid.

Probably going to make some spreadsheets xD

And yea: Valeguardian probably has around 1900k armor (light armor). Made a fast spreadsheet and tinkered with the numbers and multipliers to get to similar stats when I was zerker in the raid. to get a over 30k backstab I had to lower the armor to this level (though as i made that quick it may be highly inacurate).

Oh the reason I used skelk venom is becasue of the extra damage from life siphon (around 10k damage?) , as well as some team healing properties.
And the needle trap on heal has an internal cooldown of 30s, 32 sec cd doesn;t make much of a difference i think. :P

And I agree, I’ve tested all our weapon sets in PvP. In terms of pure DPS, staff is the way to go. If only we have infusion of shadows like back in the day, Dagger/Dagger might stand a better chance against staff.
What surprised me was how low S/P’s DPS really is. Staff deals roughly 33% more dps compared to S/P.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

10k damage all 32 seconds doesn’t amout to much dps (312)
You forgot that the CD reduction on Traps via Traits works on Trait laid traps as well.
Same as haste on trickery trait and reduction

So it is 8 seconds or 1 additional Trap in 96 seconds ^^ AND the upkeep of Lotus Training is easier which amounts roughly 10% more DPS (in reallity it can be much higher or lower, as the conditions have their bursts. think about missing 4 seconds lotustraining when popping the venoms)

And healing shouldn’t be required of/from the thief

But mainly it is the advantage of maintaining Lotus Training, which seems to be an actual multiplier, and not an increase in condition damage which most x% sources do (like sigil of bursting, rune of the berserker etc)

S/P has advantages: you can stay static, evade and do damage at the same time + breakbar/interrupt + blind field.
For raid irrelevant, but in fractals it still is more valuable than the staff, with trash mobs

(edited by Rai.9625)

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Posted by: Molch.2078

Molch.2078

No needs to do screens or videos, those numbers are believable. But there is a bit of a problem.

All dps calculation from guilds like DnT are done against targets with 2600 armor. Maybe Vale has less than 2.6k armor. And I’m pretty sure they dont assume all of the ranger buffs all the time.

Now, I dont know exactly what assumptions DnT’s number people use, but I know what I use and I get the same results as they do. And with your rotation, against a raidboss with 2600 Armor, I calculated ~14.8k DPS. That’s a revenant autoattackig on sword, without quickness. And rev can do a lot more that autoattacking, actually.

I’m not sure I follow. =/

The numbers I’ve used are the numbers I’m seeing in the raid itself, not a target golem.
I’m hitting a solid 30k per weakening charge on the Vale guardian itself.
So technically, the numbers I’ve put up are the actual DPS numbers on the Vale Guardian.
I personally do not know how much toughness VG has, nor does it matter.
And the numbers I’m using are not with Druid’s Buffs, its the steady damage I’m getting with passive buffs alone.

All those numbers only have value, if you can compare them. Just saying “Thief has 23k DPS” is not very usefull without comparison, and those comparison have to happen under the same conditions. Now I want to compare thieves to revenants. You have done your thief calculations for the vale guardian fight, I have done mine for rev against a target golem. Can’t compare the two. I looked at your build under mine conditions, if you don’t like that, you can look at the rev under yours. But then you will see revenants dealing 10-12k autohits on the VG, with quickness, and then 23k isn’t that much. It’s still good, but not that good.

Zerk Thieves don’t have low damage, but they also don’t have high damage, and that’s their problem, because they don’t offer anything else.

But we’re kinda off topic here.

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

The best or optimal condi / venom share build for PvE / Raids has been debated enough:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Optimal-Venomshare-Raid-Critique-needed/first#post5812429
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/PvE-Condi-setup-Trait-lines-Synergy/first#post5731215
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Optimal-Venomshare-Raid-Critique-needed/first#post5812429

The thing is, if you played that and also a zerk build you will see a difference in numbers (dps output).

Raids = challenging content where you have to smack a bullet sponge & his adds as fast as you can; we can agree that survival even with 12k HP is not an issue.

I have been at the Vale Guardian with a venom share build. Me and an engi were able to bring the Red boss down every time with zero issues. This is burst damage; Condi DD is ok for that. For the rest of the fight, IMO, condi DD lacks a ‘high-enough’ constant dps.

This is Vale guardian, remember? For the following fights it will be much harder to get a spot as Condi DD, IMO.

I have seen and tested what a Condi War and Condi necro can do… and they are way ahead of Thief unfortunately.

In order to get clear picture you should at least test / try with Thief condi / zerk.
Then you can compare.
If you are fortunate(and rich) enough to also try with other professions then your comparison… picture will only get better.

(edited by rogerwilko.6895)

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

Thats what we all said and agreed on o.o so I don’t understand your post there

It’s just that Condi thief is viable enough for raid. That zerk thief is better is out of the question.

And fortunately enough I own 3 complete ascended sets on my thief Zerker, Viper/Sinister and PVT
^^

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

For ‘raids’ in general can be a stretch. It’s ok-ish for VG because it’s not that tight of a DPS race and there are no adds that you have to pewpew.
Gorseval is another story.

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Posted by: Rai.9625

Rai.9625

Thing is I can condi on VG and go Zerk Staff on Gorsi ^^ Both went well