Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone

I am sorry if this has been discussed before, also i never participated in Betas.

I just turned 80, so now i have all traits in my disposal to play with.
Yet, what i don’t really understand and makes me wonder is the fact that there are traits in specific lines, where they should not be. I don’t know if this is intentionally or just bad design/poor positioning…

Let me explain:
Venomous Aura, 30 point trait in Shadow Arts line.Really?
A line which boosts Toughness/Vitality and supports Stealth, needs a trait for venom sharing? A damage dealing trait? Couldn’t that trait be in Deadly Arts, where someone actually might use it?
Same goes for Hastened Replenishment, 30 point trait in Trickery line.
Why would i specc for that on a line that supports Condition Dmg/Steal Recharge?
Flanking Strikes In Trickery? Shouldnt that fit better in Critical strike Line?
There are maybe other traits that suit better in other lines but I haven’t try all lines, so cant judge on the usefulness of all traits…

(one last thing : First strike, 25 trait in Critical Strike line…Are you serious? You reward me for NOT using my initiative, NOT using my skills, while i am a Thief, a burst damage profession?Please replace that…)

Discuss please

Sorry for my bad English, not my native language

I can’t give you a lengthy reply right now (on a break at work), but just for the sake of pointing it out, your English is better than that of most native English speakers. There’s no need to apologise for well written and easy to understand posts. Thumbs up to you for being so fluent, even if you do make an odd mistake here and there.

Incurafy.6329:

I can’t give you a lengthy reply right now (on a break at work), but just for the sake of pointing it out, your English is better than that of most native English speakers. There’s no need to apologise for well written and easy to understand posts. Thumbs up to you for being so fluent, even if you do make an odd mistake here and there.

Useless reply, please delete.

The Venom Strike is in the right place in my eyes. That is because that line is somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill. Its pretty much in the right place.

First strike is not rewarding you as you dont using your skills, but gives you a bit boost over 6 ini points what is great, better than nothing. Actually you can’t wait to modify it like, you deal 10% dmg more once u have no ini points, or all the time, I don’t see it has any problem.

Flanking strike is also in a good place, since you can use it from the first trait (10 points). What basicly most build contains I believe due the ini point regen from stealing and at 15 points u gain 3 more ini points for ur total 12 points. But if it happens that you aren’t, there are traits on critical line also what gives +7%.

This is my opinion.

I believe it is intentional so that you’re not completely sacrificing damage traits if you go with a support or defensive trait line. Or maybe they just ran out of space on Deadly Arts and Crit Strikes.

As the name suggests, First Strike is all about buffing your opening attack. You can use it with a dual dagger build quite well by opening with cloak and dagger and then backstab while your initiative is still over 6. Combine with the 25 point Deadly Arts trait and you’ve got a 20% damage bonus on backstab, since cloak and dagger causes vulnerability.

Kouta.5239:

The Venom Strike is in the right place in my eyes. That is because that line is somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill. Its pretty much in the right place.

Venom Strike? Where is that? I said Venomous Aura, don’t know if you mean the same trait. Anyway if you do, my point again is : why a damage dealing trait in a “somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill” line?

Kouta.5239:

First strike is not rewarding you as you dont using your skills, but gives you a bit boost over 6 ini points what is great, better than nothing.

“Better than nothing” is not good enough for a 25point trait in my eyes

bwillb.2165:

I believe it is intentional so that you’re not completely sacrificing damage traits if you go with a support or defensive trait line. Or maybe they just ran out of space on Deadly Arts and Crit Strikes.

As the name suggests, First Strike is all about buffing your opening attack. You can use it with a dual dagger build quite well by opening with cloak and dagger and then backstab while your initiative is still over 6. Combine with the 25 point Deadly Arts trait and you’ve got a 20% damage bonus on backstab, since cloak and dagger causes vulnerability.

I am afraid you confused more.
Buffing my first attack (only) is understandable well enough.
If i use CnD, i will consume 6 initiative. If i backstab immediately, First strike doesn’t apply since it says “10% increased damage when initiative is OVER 6” and my initiative is exactly 6? Or do i need the Preparedness or Infusion of Shadow traits so i will be sure it will work? Meh…
If i understood it wrong and you re right about it, a 25 point trait for use, maybe once in a fight, looks like a waste to me…What about large fights or Boss fights?

Kund.1096:

Kouta.5239:

The Venom Strike is in the right place in my eyes. That is because that line is somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill. Its pretty much in the right place.

Venom Strike? Where is that? I said Venomous Aura, don’t know if you mean the same trait. Anyway if you do, my point again is : why a damage dealing trait in a “somekind of supportish if you read everything. That line adds boons and such to YOUR ALLIES once you used a given skill” line?

Pretty much what someone mentioned above me, that since we are meant to be a burst char, even if you are willing to be a support, still be able to deal some damage?

Kund.1096:

bwillb.2165:

I believe it is intentional so that you’re not completely sacrificing damage traits if you go with a support or defensive trait line. Or maybe they just ran out of space on Deadly Arts and Crit Strikes.

As the name suggests, First Strike is all about buffing your opening attack. You can use it with a dual dagger build quite well by opening with cloak and dagger and then backstab while your initiative is still over 6. Combine with the 25 point Deadly Arts trait and you’ve got a 20% damage bonus on backstab, since cloak and dagger causes vulnerability.

I am afraid you confused more.
Buffing my first attack (only) is understandable well enough.
If i use CnD, i will consume 6 initiative. If i backstab immediately, First strike doesn’t apply since it says “10% increased damage when initiative is OVER 6” and my initiative is exactly 6? Or do i need the Preparedness or Infusion of Shadow traits so i will be sure it will work? Meh…
If i understood it wrong and you re right about it, a 25 point trait for use, maybe once in a fight, looks like a waste to me…What about large fights or Boss fights?

if you trait preparedness (+3 ini point), then you have 9 initiative points after a CnD.

And if i take Infusion of shadow too, i will have 11 initiative left after CnD…
So i need 1 or 2 more traits to make the First strike work…?
And all that for just once in a fight?

I can accept your explanation about being supportive and be able to deal some damage too. Seems logical, that’s what i am trying to understand, if traits are intentionally placed as they are and for what reason…

I see your point, but I’m so far fine with it, Im not used to burn down all my initiative points in 1 second (begining of hte fight). Therefore its usefull for me. However if this is hte case, either a bit boost on the given % would be rly handy, or lower the initiative point requirements on it. Or simply as u said to put to another place.

I’ve previously made note of the basic concept you’re pointing out here.

Some amount of your build for your role is locked in to the trait lines. I don’t like this. I feel that traits could still be organized like they are, but would make far more sense if you had two tabs, one for stat points and one for minor & major trait tree.

The reason that’s better than how it is now is to improve the amount of choice you have to pick the stats that boost your playstyle as well as the special traits that go with your idea. Hybrid build is already heavily encouraged so I honestly find it completely strange that traits and stat points are linked up in this way.

For one thing, the number of trees doesn’t make perfect sense to me. Could the number of trees be reduced and then more of the traits that make sense together? You don’t get a choice of minor traits currently, making some builds work out with 15/25 point allocations. The unlinking of stat builds and trait capabilities would allow the design process to more strongly clarify the choice players have and ensure balance of the trait options themselves.

Kund.1096:

Hello everyone

Venomous Aura, 30 point trait in Shadow Arts line.Really?
A line which boosts Toughness/Vitality and supports Stealth, needs a trait for venom sharing? A damage dealing trait? Couldn’t that trait be in Deadly Arts, where someone actually might use it?

Venomous Aura is not a damage dealing trait. There is only one Venom that actually deals damage actually (spider venom), and it isn’t even a very efficient damage source. The venoms are debuffs. They are controlling and debilitating conditions inflicted on the opponent. The Shadow Arts trait line focuses on both Stealth and the control and support roles for group play. Considering that Venomous Aura is the strongest control and support trait in the entire class, doesn’t it make sense that its in the control and support trait line?

Again, i’m not sure why you think this is a damage dealing trait. You simply have the wrong impression.

Kund.1096:

Same goes for Hastened Replenishment, 30 point trait in Trickery line.
Why would i specc for that on a line that supports Condition Dmg/Steal Recharge?

Again, you seem to just not really understand what the Trait lines are actually focused on. You seem very confused based on some superficial causes. Please read through the other traits in the Trickery line again and notice there is a heavy emphasis on Initiative Recovery throughout this trait line. Hastened Replenishment is the most powerful Initiative Recovery trait, so it is sensible that it should be at the end of the most Initiative Recovery focused trait line.

Kund.1096:

Flanking Strikes In Trickery? Shouldnt that fit better in Critical strike Line?

Why would it fit better in the Critical Strike line? Critical Strikes already has Side Strike.

I think I know what you’re complaining about. You want to take both Side Strike and Flanking Strikes, because you are trying to min/max around the idea of attacking from behind. You’re using all Power/Precision/Crit Damage equipment and don’t have any condition damage. So you have managed to convince yourself that it is bad to take points in Trickery because that trait line gives condition damage.

I would suggest that instead of complaining, you should actually just figure out how to use the trait lines.

Kund.1096:

First strike, 25 trait in Critical Strike line…Are you serious? You reward me for NOT using my initiative, NOT using my skills, while i am a Thief, a burst damage profession?

The trait is called FIRST STRIKE. it is clearly intended to be a bonus for the FIRST STRIKES OF A FIGHT. why is that not obvious? its right in the name! this trait increases damage on your opening hits, before you have spend your initiative down below 6.

As an alternative you can also try to think of real contexts where this trait is optimized. You seem to complain because you have imagined some playstyle you want to do, and the find that the traits don’t match it perfectly, so you think the traits are badly designed. The truth is its the other way around. The traits are elegantly designed to encourage diverse playstyles and exploration of the Trait lines.

You seem to think that it would be good if you could cherry pick everything you wanted all the time and have a build that gives maximum bonuses to one specific playstyle that you have in mind. This would be bad design though. Instead, we have a well designed system that forces players to think more and make interesting tradeoffs and decisions.

You should start thinking more about those tradeoffs and decisions. You don’t get to fully support a 1-dimensional build of the class with your traits. You have to build a more multi-dimensional character.

metaphorm.6904:

Venomous Aura is not a damage dealing trait. There is only one Venom that actually deals damage actually (spider venom), and it isn’t even a very efficient damage source. The venoms are debuffs. They are controlling and debilitating conditions inflicted on the opponent. The Shadow Arts trait line focuses on both Stealth and the control and support roles for group play. Considering that Venomous Aura is the strongest control and support trait in the entire class, doesn’t it make sense that its in the control and support trait line?

Again, i’m not sure why you think this is a damage dealing trait. You simply have the wrong impression.

You might have a point there. I had mostly Spider Venom in my mind, thats what i have used sometimes…(i feel the Venoms are substandard, i rarely used them anyway)

metaphorm.6904:

Again, you seem to just not really understand what the Trait lines are actually focused on. You seem very confused based on some superficial causes. Please read through the other traits in the Trickery line again and notice there is a heavy emphasis on Initiative Recovery throughout this trait line. Hastened Replenishment is the most powerful Initiative Recovery trait, so it is sensible that it should be at the end of the most Initiative Recovery focused trait line.

So i should emphasize in the +initiative part and forget it is apllied through our heal skill? Understandable…

metaphorm.6904:

Why would it fit better in the Critical Strike line? Critical Strikes already has Side Strike.

I think I know what you’re complaining about. You want to take both Side Strike and Flanking Strikes, because you are trying to min/max around the idea of attacking from behind. You’re using all Power/Precision/Crit Damage equipment and don’t have any condition damage. So you have managed to convince yourself that it is bad to take points in Trickery because that trait line gives condition damage.

I would suggest that instead of complaining, you should actually just figure out how to use the trait lines.

Actually i am not complaining. And the fact that you can easily get Flanking strike from another line because its a low point trait doesn’t mean it is positioned properly there. You convinced me that Hastened Replenishment is correctly where it is because it actually gives initiative above else. How are you gonna convince me that Flanking strike is properly there? What it contributes to a trait line that gives condition damage(your words)?
And why should i spend point in Trickery from the first place if i dont want +condition damage at all? You say its not bad. And I say its not good either. Because you dont care spending points in Trickery, that doesn’t mean a direct damage trait belong to a +condition damage trait line…

metaphorm.6904:

The trait is called FIRST STRIKE. it is clearly intended to be a bonus for the FIRST STRIKES OF A FIGHT. why is that not obvious? its right in the name! this trait increases damage on your opening hits, before you have spend your initiative down below 6.

Sure, sure. I gave an example in a post above. Lets say I have NOT take Preparedness or Infusion of Shadows traits. I use CnD (with the intention to Backstab, 6 initiative spend, 6 initiative left) and then i backstab immediately. Will First strike work ONLY for CnD or not?
What about PvE? I might hit hard on my opening ability and then what? I dont use any ability until my iniative goes above 6 and only then i use another?

If thats the intention, then thats fine. Dont expect me though not to think this trait needs rework.

And for you last paragraphs:
Of course i have imagined and use a specific, favorite play-style.
When i want apples I take them from Apple line.
When i want Bananas i take them from Bananas line.
and when i want Cucumbers, i take them from Cucumber line.
Making me chase the apples through the B and C line isn’t “creative” nor “elegant”.

After all, IF i want to be “multi-dimensional”, i should do it cause i want it, not because you force me, right?

Thanks for your help understanding the way trait lines are intended to work though…

i definitely disagree with you that you ought to be able to easily specialize in “apples” and not have to “chase the apples through the B and C line”. you should have to chase them. absolutely 100% it is good design to make you chase them. bad design would be “here is apples on a silver platter”.

the point of the trait lines is not to facilitate creation of the most efficient, specialized builds of your class. the point of the trait lines is to present a game system that players get to interact with. you see the difference? this is not industrial design, this is game design. the objective is not efficiency and specialization. the objective is something with depth and diversity that forces strategic tradeoffs and decisions.

metaphorm.6904:

i definitely disagree with you that you ought to be able to easily specialize in “apples” and not have to “chase the apples through the B and C line”. you should have to chase them. absolutely 100% it is good design to make you chase them. bad design would be “here is apples on a silver platter”.

the point of the trait lines is not to facilitate creation of the most efficient, specialized builds of your class. the point of the trait lines is to present a game system that players get to interact with. you see the difference? this is not industrial design, this is game design. the objective is not efficiency and specialization. the objective is something with depth and diversity that forces strategic tradeoffs and decisions.

We can agree that we definitely disagree.
I disagree with everything you said.
If i want apples and bananas, i should be able to pick only apples and bananas, and not cucumbers if i dont want them. If you want apples and cucumbers, you should be able to pick up only those and not some bananas too, “because you have to”!

“the objective is not efficiency and specialization” EXCUSE ME????
Then why i should put any point to any line from the beginning?

“something with depth and diversity that forces strategic tradeoffs and decisions”? Who decides that? Who knows better than me what is strategic or not in my play-style? Why somebody else must decide how depth and diversity my play-style must have?
And where is the depth and the diversity if the system it self FORCES YOU to do those tradeoffs and decisions?
Depth and diversity FOR ME, means that it gives ME the choice to do it, MY way…

you’re just missing the fundamental point of view i’m trying to communicate here.

Yes, obviously it would have been possible to create trait lines that facilitate peak efficiency. They could have put in a trait line that looks like this:

hypothetical non-existing peak efficiency trait line

Sword Mastery: (increases power by 10 per point and crit damage by 1 per point)
5 point minor trait – Sword Expert – deal 5% more damage when wielding a sword
10 point traits:
– Damaging Sword Expert- deal an additional 5% more damage when wielding a sword
– Flanking Sword Expert – deal 10% more damage when striking from behind with a sword
– Envenomed Sword Expert – deal 10% more damage when striking with a sword that has had Venom applied to it
– Critical Sword Expert – +5% chance to critical strike when wielding a sword
– Sword Defense Expert – gain (20 + level) toughness when wielding a sword
– Crippling Sword Strikes – gain +50% duration of cripple and weakness condition inflicted by sword attacks
15 point minor trait – Really Good Sword Expert – deal an additional 10% more damage when wielding a sword
20 point traits:
– Mighty Sword – gain a 10% chance per auto-attack to gain a stack of Might (10 seconds duration) when attacking with a Sword
– Efficient Swordsman – Initiative cost of Infiltrator Strike, Flanking Strike, and Pistol Whip reduced by 1
– Hardy Swordsman – condition on you have their duration -20% while wielding a sword
– Leeching Sword Strikes – gain a 10% chance per auto-attack to drain life when wielding a sword
25 point minor trait – Really Really Good Sword Expert – gain an additional 10% chance to crit when wielding a sword
30 point traits:
– Executioner’s Sword – Gain +20% critical hit rate and +50% critical damage against opponents that are at 50% life or lower
– Miraculous Swordsman – gain a 10% chance per auto-attack to convert a condition on yourself into a boon when wielding a sword

there’s an example of an “all apples” trait line. do you think this trait line is an example of good game design or bad game design? obviously it allows players to create hyper-efficient, specialized sword wielding characters. that seems to be something along the lines of what you want.

My point is that while this would be good for allowing efficiency, it is bad for the game. It leads to one dimensional characters who are good (too good possibly) at the thing they have decided to be good at but don’t have any enhancements to things they did not decided to be good at. But that’s not really why its bad game design. Its bad game design because its BORING. Its not fun. Its not interesting. There are no meaningful decisions or tradeoffs for a player to make here. You just get everything you want in the most straightforward way possible. This has the illusion of choice (choosing between 5% damage or 5% crit accomplishes the same thing, it is an illusory choice) but there is no choice to make that makes any kind of difference. There is no way to distinguish between players who are skillful at constructing trait builds and those who aren’t here. Every choice is too obvious and not very different from whatever other options you might choose. There are no constraints in place to prevent you from min/maxing your way to the most efficient build possible.

You talk alot about feeling forced into something by the devs and not being able to get it “FOR ME”. you have the entirely wrong point of view on this. If the trait lines were the way you want them to be you’d be ACTUALLY forced into something because there would be no meaningful choices. The way trait lines are now you have many choices to make. The way trait lines would be under your preference would reduce a diverse set of choices into a single choice (take this trait line, yes or no). You get your efficiency. You lose your choices, your character customization, your ability to develop an individual playstyle.

Good game design is not about facilitating industrial efficiency. It is about creating interesting and multi-faceted choices for players. It is the very fact that you can’t have it all that makes the current trait system a well designed one.

“There are no constraints in place to prevent you from min/maxing your way to the most efficient build possible.”
You keep saying the exact same thing, using different words every time, as if the goal here is NOT to achieve the best build for your character and the playstyle you desire.
Please explain me why not. Because you might find it boring?

“It is the very fact that you can’t have it all that makes the current trait system a well designed one.”
Again, i disagree. Keeping me away form all the “good stuff” is by no means, not now, not ever, well design…Reminds of the pay-to-play mentality of other games…

No point continue arguing about it…i find flaws in this trait system for my reasons, you dont for your own reasons. Lets end this debate here.

Thank you for sharing your opinion though, was … interesting