Guild Wars 2

Hello,

I’ve noticed that a lot of the feedback on this forum has a negative twist to it, my own included. Therefore, I’ve started this thread with the intention of communicating to the devs ways to improve our class in a neutral tone. The idea is that we keep this thread clean of any negative/emotional rants, and focus solely on legitimate thief improvements with as close to objective reasoning as possible explaining why we should get it.

As I’ve browsed this board the past few weeks, I’ve noticed that requests tend to be broken down into specific “fix x feature about y skill” requests and general “we need help with ____” requests. So we’ll do the same in this thread. The specific requests aren’t intended to be overwhelming amounts of work. Just point out a problem and a concise solution. If you want a more generic change, or don’t have a specific solution the general requests are more open ended. However, they should be more specific than “redesign everything”. If you think of something that isn’t on either of these lists and should be, please feel free to respond. I intend to keep this thread up to date.

Specific requests

• Pistol – increase range to 1050 – courtesy of Amante.8109
  Reasoning: Thieves are the only class in the game without a 1200 range weapon – and will continue to be so when HoT is released. Many of us were hoping for a rifle/sniper action with our e-spec, but that didn’t happen. I don’t think there’s a reasonable explanation for this. Several encounters in all aspects of the game are designed around 1200 ranged capability and I’m sure the new content in HoT will be no exception. Please rectify this situation by making pistols baseline 1200 range.
  UPDATE: 1050 seems like a fair compromise if 1200 is too much for whatever reason.

• Buff withdraw heal – courtesy of Amante.8109
  Reasoning: You said you would months ago when you nerfed its cooldown. You still haven’t. Please do what you told us you would do, or explain why you won’t.

• Fix scorpion wire
  Reasoning: The skill is broken with the exact same problem engineers had with Magnet. Please fix our identical problem.

• Buff Venomous aura to 600 range
  Reasoning: Elementalists put thieves to shame with the amount of party support they can put out, yet still received a Powerful Aura trait buff in the latest balance patch. Please provide a similar buff to our last remaining unique group utility – more on this in the general request section.

• Revisit our weapon combo S/D
  Reasoning: It is clear that the state of the game that once required the nerfs to S and S/D is long gone. The HoT expansion will feature the necromancer corrupting 2 boons into conditions once every 5 seconds and revenants with far better shadow step capabilities than thieves ever had. To keep us in line with the power creep I suggest the following changes:
  Larcenous Strike – back to 2 boons stolen (reverted nerf).
  Infiltrator’s return – Once again instant cast (reverted nerf).
  Infiltrator’s strike – increase range to 900 (from 600).
  IIRC these nerfs were primarily focused on PvP when they were implemented, so if such changes would cause PvP balance issues then please split the skill functionality in PvE and PvP. I know you have the tech to do this and it sucks being held back in PvE because of PvP balance issues – this applies to all requests in this thread, specific and general.

• death blossom gets a better evasion courtesy of BrunoBRS.5178
  Reasoning: either 1/2 or 3/4 (up from 1/4), leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit courtesy of BrunoBRS.5178
  Reasoning: Up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces, to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison courtesy of BrunoBRS.5178
  Reasoning: maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

• Pistol 2 should have a short evade like staff 3 courtesy of Zodryn.4216
  Reasoning: to help with survivability and distancing if you get jumped (which is easy for people to do since we only have 900 range)

• +3 max initiative should be baseline courtesy of PopeUrban.2578
  Reasoning: This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line.

General Requests

1. Give us survivability that isn’t tied to dodge and stealth. A stealthed thief is not a contributing thief (not to mention the revealed debuff being handed out to several e-specs), and we have a dev on record saying that dodge will not be enough to survive most HoT content. Our easy access to blind and weakness does nothing to raid bosses. We have the lowest health pool and medium armor so surviving is definitely an issue.

2. Give us more party support. Rangers and Engineers are getting easy access to group stealth, mesmers will be able to mass veil twice, so our “unique” capabilities are going away. It seems like every class in the game has something unique to contribute to groups, and thieves don’t. We can’t really help with might or vuln stacking compared to ele’s & engi’s, and we don’t have a unique mechanic like the warrior discipline flag or guardian aegis or mesmer alacrity. We need something on the table to make thieves a valuable contributor to the team. I suggested a buff to venemous aura above. Perhaps further buffs to leeching venoms or to the base venoms themselves, or adding 3 stacks of might to regen in the shadow protector trait would be the way to go. I’m not sure what, but something needs to change or thieves are going to be completely undesirable in HoT PvE groups.

3. Serious daredevil changes. We know that you gutted acrobatics to make way for your idea for our elite spec and it’s not a good feeling. Having our elite specialization profession mechanic being something we already had access to for the past 3 years is not ideal. Having to give up our grandmaster traits to improve our this controversial profession mechanic is even worse. So, I know I’ve seen this requested a lot, but it bears repeating.

• Please give us access to our enhanced dodges without making us use grandmaster traits on them. F3-F5 could work, but if you feel that’s too powerful then simply giving us a pop up to let us change the current dodge would be acceptable too. Lock it in combat like you lock the utility skills.

• Design new grandmaster traits. Here is a killer idea courtesy of Nike.2631

Flitting Shadows — Your dodge ability now either removes ‘Revealed’ or places you in stealth for 2 seconds.

4. Pistol 5 needs more synergy with P/ and S/. Courtesy of Gallant Pigeon.5807

The interaction with pistol #5 also needs to change to provide more functionality for s/p and p/p. 20% projectile chance rng on p/p unload means its near useless as a defensive mechanism.
I would go as far as saying reduce pistol #5 to 5 initiative.
Then how about a blast finisher on infiltrator’s strike for s/p (stealth access) and making unload 100% chance for the first projectile? Would also suggest pistol #2 is changed.

5. Ankle Shots is now a terrible trait that is never worth taking courtesy of ThrynDrakarian.3179
Please give us a pistol enhancing trait that is worth taking. Perhaps a modified form of ricochet? Lots of discussion in this thread and others on this topic.

I don’t think that everything on these lists would be a final and conclusive fix to the issues our class & e-spec have, but it would be an excellent start.

Thanks, that’s all I’ve got for now. As I mentioned, I intend to keep this thread up to date and add/remove/adjust the lists as you guys see fit. Please respond with your ideas.

Edit: I’m seeing a handful of “rebalance” suggestions which involve pretty hard nerfs (such as raising the initiative cost of heartseeker or reducing the passive heal from signet of malice). I’m going to leave these out for now. This thread is intended for direct buffs, that don’t involve corresponding nerfs which could possibly leave us in a worse place. Plenty of great ideas on that line, please keep them coming.

For any devs reading: this is basically a summary of what’s been posted multiple times for the past few months, and in some cases years. If you need a good place to get your bearings on Thief feedback from Thief players, this is the place to do it.

wolfpaq.7354:

We know that you gutted acrobatics to make way for your idea for our elite spec and it’s not a good feeling.

power of inertia -> evasive empowerment ( gutted and nerfed for specialization)

feline grace -> extra dodge bar (nerfed for specialization)

fleet of foot -> unhindered combatant (replaced weakness with chilled and removed the icd. gutted for specialization)

assassin’s retreat ( great trait for pve) -> unhindered combatant (gutted for specialization)

unhindered combatant = combination of improved traits assassin’s retreat and fleet of foot

Fluid strikes -> staff master (gutted for specialization)

The interaction with pistol #5 also needs to change to provide more functionality for s/p and p/p. 20% projectile chance rng on p/p unload means its near useless as a defensive mechanism.

I would go as far as saying reduce pistol #5 to 5 initiative. Increase dagger heartseeker to 4 initiative to compensate.

Then how about a blast finisher on infiltrator’s strike for s/p (stealth access) and making unload 100% chance for the first projectile? Would also suggest pistol #2 is changed.

am i the only one that doesn’t think withdraw needs buffing? i mean, it still heals a solid amount on a decent cooldown, especially when you consider it’s the only instant-cast, un-interruptable heal in the game, and doubles as a panic button, as it flings you away from any danger.

my dream list of changes are mostly tied to my very first build, D/D condi (and i realize this is the third thread in a row i ask for those changes, i just happened to land on 3 threads in a row that talked about it):

• death blossom gets a better evasion (either 1/2 or 3/4, leaving the very end of the animation, which already roots you, as the vulnerable spot)

• dancing dagger applies a single stack of torment on hit (so up to 2 stacks depending on how it bounces), to keep in line with its movement-impairing theme.

• dagger training should be merged with potent poison, and maybe buff the chance to 50%, or at least have the poison duration increased to 3-4 seconds.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

The interaction with pistol #5 also needs to change to provide more functionality for s/p and p/p. 20% projectile chance rng on p/p unload means its near useless as a defensive mechanism.

I would go as far as saying reduce pistol #5 to 5 initiative. Increase dagger heartseeker to 4 initiative to compensate.

Then how about a blast finisher on infiltrator’s strike for s/p (stealth access) and making unload 100% chance for the first projectile? Would also suggest pistol #2 is changed.

i like S/P as it is. it’s one of those sets that don’t really need stealth (but since everyone running S/P will probably run daredevil, will get anyway), and where every skill has its use. BP’s pulsing changing to every other second kinda screwed it a bit, but i’d argue for a slight radius increase before dropping its initiative cost (and heartseeker costing 4 ini would just break thief forever).

wolfpaq.7354:

• Pistol – increase range to 1200 – courtesy of Amante.8109
  Reasoning: Thieves are the only class in the game without a 1200 range weapon – and will continue to be so when HoT is released. Many of us were hoping for a rifle/sniper action with our e-spec, but that didn’t happen. I don’t think there’s a reasonable explanation for this. Several encounters in all aspects of the game are designed around 1200 ranged capability and I’m sure the new content in HoT will be no exception. Please rectify this situation by making pistols baseline 1200 range.

As much as I’d love for Thief to have a 1200 range weapon, it doesn’t seem in the cards anytime soon. My request is actually for Pistol to have 1050 range baseline, which is what it had with Ankle Shots before today. This would make it a bit less punishing than it is at 900 range right now, which is pretty rough to be honest. It also only seems fair, given how the other range traits in the game had some of their benefits rolled into baseline when they were removed.

Ah my apologies for misrepresenting your view. I’ll update to 1050.

I see no convincing reason for thieves to be the only class in the game without a 1200 range option though.

wolfpaq.7354:

Ah my apologies for misrepresenting your view. I’ll update to 1050.

I see no convincing reason for thieves to be the only class in the game without a 1200 range option though.

none of our weapons fit it, sadly.

much as i want 1200 range and some ranged AoE, i don’t think shoehorning it into our current weapons is the solution. yes, it means we’d have to wait for another elite spec, one that gave us a rifle or longbow (or something stupid and out there like mainhand torches with 1200 range), to get those things.

still holding out hope for a rifle with AoE on impact (like engi’s pistol AA mixed with mortar kit, only more thief-themed), instead of the “OMG SNIPER 360 NOSCOPE HEADSHOT” thing everyone wants (tip: run a killshot warrior on full zerk).

BrunoBRS.5178:

none of our weapons fit it, sadly.

Range is just number made up by arenanet. If they wanted pistols to have 1200 range, they could. Mesmer pistol does.

We’re just used to 900 range because it’s always been that way therefore it “should” always be that way, which is just circular reasoning. It fits 1200 range just as well as 900. There’s nothing inherent to the kit that would make 1200 range devestatingly overpowered, IMO.

Pistol 2 should have a short evade like staff 3 to help with survivability and distancing if you get jumped (which is easy for people to do since we only have 900 range)

Signet of Malice:
Lower base passive healing and raise healing power coefficient to increase build variety and make healing power good for something in thief builds.

Add a condition cleanse or stunbreak to the active. Currently the active is a lackluster heal (which is fine given the potential power of the passive) but it needs a more compelling active. Currently there are virtually no situations in which anyone would actually use the active on SoM, as you’re virtually guaranteed more health if you simply keep attacking.

If you want to keep the aggressive theme, perhaps give it a ranged instacast daze in stead, which has a similar compelling defensive function but might be more “on theme” for the skill.

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line.

Change functionality to “Using an initiative based attack from stealth refunds 100% of its initiative if it hits a foe (5s ICD)” to be both thematic (it’s a trick, using a non-sneak attack from stealth) and make trickery more situationally initiative friendly without being so good it feels required.

PopeUrban.2578:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line.

Change functionality to “Using an initiative based attack from stealth refunds 100% of its initiative if it hits a foe (5s ICD)” to be both thematic (it’s a trick, using a non-sneak attack from stealth) and make trickery more situationally initiative friendly without being so good it feels required.

I like the idea of making preparedness baseline, as it would get us out of the pigeonhole that is trickery, but I don’t really see anyone taking the your version of the new trait. All of the stealth attacks are almost always worth it. The only situation I see it being useful is getting a free pistol whip as thats better than the daze on sword, but then again s/p rarely stealths, same with s/d. D/P is the big stealther and backstab will always be better than any other skill on dagger.

wolfpaq.7354:

• Pistol – increase range to 1050 – courtesy of Amante.8109

I have a suspicion on why this won’t happen. I’m thinking that a future Elite Spec will include rifle with a 1200 range.

So instead, I have a different suggestion…

Pistol-2
1200 range. Fires an immobilizing shot. If target is between 900-1200, leap forward 300. If target is between 1-600, leap backward 300.
*can be used to chase or kite.

Also, Pistol-1 & Pistol-3 should pierce

I don’t think they’d let us remove reveal and get stealth on dodge, so here’s a change to the flitting shadows suggested trait:

Dodging extends the duration of stealth by 2 seconds and reduces the duration of reveal by 2 seconds.

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line
^
If they did this, would anyone invest in trickery ever?

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line
^
If they did this, would anyone invest in trickery ever?

I still think so. It’s our only real team support line. 50% swiftness uptime, 50% fury uptime. Along with clutch interrupts via Sleight of Hand + Bountiful Theft fits our role perfectly (at least for spvp).

I’d repost it in here, but might get yelled at for doing so, so instead have a permalink to other post (was in there as Karl has posted in there).

Basically a justification for just removing Ankle Shots as a trait and replacing it with a toned down/altered Ricochet-lite that has 2 guaranteed bounces and always divides the current single target damage between 3 targets (even if there’s only one), given the objection doesn’t seem to be random targets, just RNG number of bounces based on other skills still in the game.

The trait would then be a case of letting people choose between having a weaker per target AoE pistol set for 3 targets that also lets D/P multi shadow step on 3 again (with reduced damage), multi headshot (again reduced damage) etc or to take Practiced Tolerance for increased single target pistol for burst damage, which is currently the no-brainer option anyway…..

It might however require Pistol 2 to be reworked for balance, but I don’t think many people are a fan of it as is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-the-Pistol-wasn-t-buffed/first#post5548907

ThrynDrakarian.3179:

I’d repost it in here, but might get yelled at for doing so, so instead have a permalink to other post (was in there as Karl has posted in there).

Basically a justification for just removing Ankle Shots as a trait and replacing it with a toned down/altered Ricochet-lite that has 2 guaranteed bounces and always divides the current single target damage between 3 targets (even if there’s only one), given the objection doesn’t seem to be random targets, just RNG number of bounces based on other skills still in the game.

The trait would then be a case of letting people choose between having a weaker per target AoE pistol set for 3 targets that also lets D/P multi shadow step on 3 again (with reduced damage), multi headshot (again reduced damage) etc or to take Practiced Tolerance for increased single target pistol for burst damage, which is currently the no-brainer option anyway…..

It might however require Pistol 2 to be reworked for balance, but I don’t think many people are a fan of it as is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-the-Pistol-wasn-t-buffed/first#post5548907

What in the world? Why should we get our damage reduced 66% vs single targets just so it can bounce? Make it deal 100% to first target and 50% on bounces. That makes it similar to old ricochet without rng. Compared to other class AoE abilities, it’s definitely not overpowered. Certainly not enough to warrant dealing 33% damage to each target and hitting like a wet noodle.

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

Zodryn.4216:

ThrynDrakarian.3179:

I’d repost it in here, but might get yelled at for doing so, so instead have a permalink to other post (was in there as Karl has posted in there).

Basically a justification for just removing Ankle Shots as a trait and replacing it with a toned down/altered Ricochet-lite that has 2 guaranteed bounces and always divides the current single target damage between 3 targets (even if there’s only one), given the objection doesn’t seem to be random targets, just RNG number of bounces based on other skills still in the game.

The trait would then be a case of letting people choose between having a weaker per target AoE pistol set for 3 targets that also lets D/P multi shadow step on 3 again (with reduced damage), multi headshot (again reduced damage) etc or to take Practiced Tolerance for increased single target pistol for burst damage, which is currently the no-brainer option anyway…..

It might however require Pistol 2 to be reworked for balance, but I don’t think many people are a fan of it as is.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/So-the-Pistol-wasn-t-buffed/first#post5548907

What in the world? Why should we get our damage reduced 66% vs single targets just so it can bounce? Make it deal 100% to first target and 50% on bounces. That makes it similar to old ricochet without rng. Compared to other class AoE abilities, it’s definitely not overpowered. Certainly not enough to warrant dealing 33% damage to each target and hitting like a wet noodle.

I’m all for discussing what those splits should be, but it should NOT be as high as previous Ricochet because it clearly won’t fly – an entire Initiative bar dump gives about 4 Unloads with the regen (assuming you’ve taken trickery) leading to upwards of 40k, which split between 3 targets over 4.5-6s comes in at around 24k, 12k and 6k and that’s assuming no other trait procs, venoms, other utilities, sigil procs, etc, which would just take it even higher.

If you can’t see why that’s an issue, I’m not really sure what to say – with the other damage boost pistol recently received, we’d get shrieked about and then heavy nerf batted yet again, as increasing a boosted Pistol output by a further guaranteed constant 75% is ridiculous and wouldn’t even be considered whatsoever at the dev end, otherwise we’d already have that instead of the frankly rubbish Ankle Shots

Also I permalinked the other post I made because it includes the maths on why Ankle Shots currently shouldn’t ever be taken instead of Practiced Precision and why it needs replacing with a Ricochet-lite, my suggested splits (50, 30 and 20) and why it shouldn’t be a straight upgrade –
a) because then it’s 100% mandatory trait for taking that weapon in any weapon set, rather than an alternate option which is something thief (and the game) sorely needs full stop
b) I don’t see the problem trading some straight damage equivalent out for utility
c) it would cause massive balance problems with running both Signet of Malice and Invigorating Precision.

I should note I could see a split of say 75%, 50% and 25% when traited into my proposed Ricochet-lite working well, but I’d rather foster good reasonable discussion with starting at a reasonable point and debating it than requesting something outright broken and then being surprised the answer is just “no”.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line
^
If they did this, would anyone invest in trickery ever?

Yes. You still have boon strip and daze on steal to get. In fact, I think the CD reduction should be moved from SoH to baseline to allow you to have more variety in thief builds. Changing steal to a 25 second CD and then having leadattacks increase recharge rate by 15% still would narrow the gap between traited and untraited steal.

Furthermore, bountiful theft could be moved into the minor master spot after preparedness is made baseline, but have the boon share removed. Then put a trait in so that whenever you steal a boon, you share it with your allies in a 240 radius(Including theft from larcenous strike). You could actually choose between supporting the team or selfishly taking trickster. Right now BT is virtually mandatory and should get the boon on attunment swap treatment that ele did.

Trickery would still be taken because of the utility and damage, but wouldn’t be mandatory.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line
^
If they did this, would anyone invest in trickery ever?

I mean, if a minor trait is the only reason people select a spec, isn’t that a clear indicator of an imbalance? Your post seems to be supporting this notion.

wolfpaq.7354:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line
^
If they did this, would anyone invest in trickery ever?

I mean, if a minor trait is the only reason people select a spec, isn’t that a clear indicator of an imbalance? Your post seems to be supporting this notion.

Except we all know we take that line for bountiful theft + sleight of hand.

i would like to see my boon steal on interrupt trait idea added in if possible,
i think it was well received on here, and would be good addition to this list.

FeelsAlright.5860:

PopeUrban.2578:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line.

Change functionality to “Using an initiative based attack from stealth refunds 100% of its initiative if it hits a foe (5s ICD)” to be both thematic (it’s a trick, using a non-sneak attack from stealth) and make trickery more situationally initiative friendly without being so good it feels required.

I like the idea of making preparedness baseline, as it would get us out of the pigeonhole that is trickery, but I don’t really see anyone taking the your version of the new trait. All of the stealth attacks are almost always worth it. The only situation I see it being useful is getting a free pistol whip as thats better than the daze on sword, but then again s/p rarely stealths, same with s/d. D/P is the big stealther and backstab will always be better than any other skill on dagger.

It’s a minor meant to replace the flat +3 init. It’s not really a choice. It’s the extra thing you get when you decide to pick up trickery for “real traits”

The trait is meant to add initiative efficiency like what it’s replacing, but not such great efficiency that it feels like a line you have to have.

Stealth focused builds will have less use for it, but it’s meant to give stealth some additional utility in more brawler builds that don’t take SA. You know, so you can do something useful with stealth on builds that don’t benefit as much from their sneak attacks. It also allows the user to pull a little extra oomph out of their stealth even if they can’t position properly from a legit stealth attack.

It’s quite useful for:

condi deathblossom (backstab isn’t all that great, but a free heartseeker to close or an additional free deathblossom is)

P/P unload (sneak attack is a poor move for non-condi builds, but getting a free unload off a stealth would be good.)

S/* (more free closers, free pistolwhip)

Staff (free vault from stealth)

And other builds that, in general, don’t focus on stealth, but probably have at least one stealth ability because they’re still thieves.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Except we all know we take that line for bountiful theft + sleight of hand.

Yeah i personally feel trickery would be just fine if +3 initiative was made baseline.

I was just saying, if people feel that trickery is only useful for the +3 init, then that confirms that the minor trait is too important to just be sitting there in one spec.

What’s important regarding Pistols – Vital Shot needs to function as the set’s staple DPS. Unload needs to be reworked into a supplementary role.

The main reason P/P is terrible is because its main source of damage competes with all of its utility for resources. No other set in the game is designed this way. Vital Shot needs to do more DPS, and Unload needs to be utilitarian. My recommendation is to give it an AoE.

PopeUrban.2578:

FeelsAlright.5860:

PopeUrban.2578:

Trickery – Preparedness
+3 max initiative should be baseline. This minor makes trickery, very much like pre-nerf critical stikes, too much of a ‘must have’ line.

Change functionality to “Using an initiative based attack from stealth refunds 100% of its initiative if it hits a foe (5s ICD)” to be both thematic (it’s a trick, using a non-sneak attack from stealth) and make trickery more situationally initiative friendly without being so good it feels required.

I like the idea of making preparedness baseline, as it would get us out of the pigeonhole that is trickery, but I don’t really see anyone taking the your version of the new trait. All of the stealth attacks are almost always worth it. The only situation I see it being useful is getting a free pistol whip as thats better than the daze on sword, but then again s/p rarely stealths, same with s/d. D/P is the big stealther and backstab will always be better than any other skill on dagger.

It’s a minor meant to replace the flat +3 init. It’s not really a choice. It’s the extra thing you get when you decide to pick up trickery for “real traits”

Gotchya I misunderstood.

Ravoku.1852:

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).

side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Ravoku.1852:

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).

side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.

I respectfully disagree. I’m also not against removing the root from similar skills on the same principle, the first of which comes to mind is mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy. As for the Guardian skill (assuming Sword #3?), it doesn’t really stand to gain much from removal of the root on account of it being a ranged attack, so I’d be content either way.

Does pistol whip hit hard? Sure, I don’t think there’s any need to adjust the damage. However, it only hits hard assuming all hits connect:

• Even with the 1/2 second stun, it’s surprisingly easy to simply walk out of range to avoid a considerable amount of the damage, which suddenly becomes not so high anymore. That’s just assuming we precasted pistol whip.

• Instead, let’s assume we chose to set up using the immob on Infiltrator’s Strike. That’s a 1 second immobilize. Assuming we go immediately into the pistol whip, we need to subtract 3/4 seconds to account for the windup. With 1/4 seconds left on the immobilize, we connect with the stun portion of pistol whip. The immobilize will wear off before the stun does, meaning using Infiltrator’s Strike as a means of securing most of the actual damage is ineffective.

Lastly, we can take a look at a similar skill, Unrelenting Assault. Compared to Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy. All 3 of these are very similar in what they aim to achieve: high damage that depends on multiple strikes connecting whilst evading.

• Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy both require that you initiate the attack in melee range, with the only difference being that Thief is vulnerable for just a hair longer due to the windup, but this is fair between the two because you get a stun (albeit short) out of it.

• Unrelenting Assault, on the other hand, may be activated outside of melee range, evades for a considerably longer period of time than the other two skills, and requires no further or prior action to stay on the target. This is without accounting for the might it grants, or the likelihood that a number of UA’s strikes will be unblockable as well.

My point is, there’s a skill that accomplishes the same thing as at least two other skills where the only reliable methods of damage mitigation are dodging and invuln while said skills are avoidable by all forms of mitigation (dodge, invuln, block, blind, waddling out of the way). I’m only asking that skills receive similar rewards for similar risk.

ThrynDrakarian.3179:

I should note I could see a split of say 75%, 50% and 25% when traited into my proposed Ricochet-lite working well, but I’d rather foster good reasonable discussion with starting at a reasonable point and debating it than requesting something outright broken and then being surprised the answer is just “no”.

I agree we should ask for reasonable changes, but ricochet is not at all unreasonable. Here’s why:

I just spent awhile testing the limits of unload in PVP. Zerk, scholar, force, starting from maximum initiative for lead attacks, executioner, all ferocity boosts in CS, signet for bonus power. No fire sigils etc. as I’m just interesting in the raw damage from unload itself. After hundreds of tests, the best unload I got was 14186 damage against a light golem. Usually it was closer to 10k. According to the wiki, they have 14k hp, but somehow it still had an invisible sliver of health left and took one auto to kill it.

If ricochet always bounced to three targets and dealt 50% to each extra target, in the absolute best case possible (all bullets hit everyone and every single one crits) that’s:

14186 + ( 7093 * 3 ) = 35465 damage total vs 4 targets

A lot, right? Well, now let’s look at another skill. I ran the same set up to test mind wrack. Zerk, scholar etc. with mental anguish and compounding power. Second try mind wrack destroyed the light golem, or about 14k. It consistently did around 12k. This can hit 5 targets, so absolute best case that’s:

14k * 5 = 70k damage total vs 5 targets

They each have advantages and disadvantages. Mind wrack is harder to hit the maximum amount of targets with, but it has twice the damage potential in a single use and can be instantaneous if set up right, so it’s harder to dodge or react to. Unload has no cooldown, and can be cast 3 times plus 1 per five seconds if initiative is full to start. To keep the maximum damage potential per unload, though, you need to use it once per 5 seconds. It’s also very easy to react to and dodge, block or what have you to mitigate the damage.

Many other AoE skills could also be looked at for comparison. A lot of classes have great 1v1 damage, but can also pressure whole groups because most of that damage is AoE. I don’t really see how ricochet is any different. We keep good single target damage, while gaining decent team fight pressure. If it’s really too strong, you can just reduce the damage on the bounces until it’s reasonable. You don’t need to also take away the single target damage.

/End rant

Ravoku.1852:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Ravoku.1852:

Pistol Whip – Remove the root from this attack. With all the changes to the game since launch as well as the coming of things like Unrelenting Assault, this is a more than reasonable request.

Just look at Guardian Shield. I hadn’t seen anyone really using that since around launch until last night because removing the root on #5 makes a world of difference.

i disagree. pistol whip is already a pretty kitten strong skill, even with the root. it shares its rooting property with a bunch of other, equally good skills (and one meh guardian skill). plus, it comes built-in with mechanics to ensure you land the hit (stun that can be precast, immob on sword 2, etc).

side note, a moment of appreciation for a thief balance thread that is actually as reasonable as the title implies, unlike some threads we see around the forum.

I respectfully disagree. I’m also not against removing the root from similar skills on the same principle, the first of which comes to mind is mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy. As for the Guardian skill (assuming Sword #3?), it doesn’t really stand to gain much from removal of the root on account of it being a ranged attack, so I’d be content either way.

Does pistol whip hit hard? Sure, I don’t think there’s any need to adjust the damage. However, it only hits hard assuming all hits connect:

• Even with the 1/2 second stun, it’s surprisingly easy to simply walk out of range to avoid a considerable amount of the damage, which suddenly becomes not so high anymore. That’s just assuming we precasted pistol whip.

• Instead, let’s assume we chose to set up using the immob on Infiltrator’s Strike. That’s a 1 second immobilize. Assuming we go immediately into the pistol whip, we need to subtract 3/4 seconds to account for the windup. With 1/4 seconds left on the immobilize, we connect with the stun portion of pistol whip. The immobilize will wear off before the stun does, meaning using Infiltrator’s Strike as a means of securing most of the actual damage is ineffective.

Lastly, we can take a look at a similar skill, Unrelenting Assault. Compared to Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy. All 3 of these are very similar in what they aim to achieve: high damage that depends on multiple strikes connecting whilst evading.

• Pistol Whip and Blurred Frenzy both require that you initiate the attack in melee range, with the only difference being that Thief is vulnerable for just a hair longer due to the windup, but this is fair between the two because you get a stun (albeit short) out of it.

• Unrelenting Assault, on the other hand, may be activated outside of melee range, evades for a considerably longer period of time than the other two skills, and requires no further or prior action to stay on the target. This is without accounting for the might it grants, or the likelihood that a number of UA’s strikes will be unblockable as well.

My point is, there’s a skill that accomplishes the same thing as at least two other skills where the only reliable methods of damage mitigation are dodging and invuln while said skills are avoidable by all forms of mitigation (dodge, invuln, block, blind, waddling out of the way). I’m only asking that skills receive similar rewards for similar risk.

honestly, i think that’s more of a problem with how stupid strong UA is, although it has no cleave that i know of, while PW cleaves 3 targets.

does cleaving make it any better at 1v1/spiking down scenarios? no, not really. but we have daggers for that. S/P is a more PvE-oriented set, and an incredibly good one at that, especially paired with SoM and IP for pseudo lifeleech builds. i don’t think we should have all skills in the game suddenly not require any sort of CC setup to deal damage. hundred blades remains a rooted skill, and every now and then it shows up again in the meta, coupled with whatever new strong CC warrior got. heck, S/P was meta for a few weeks when its damage-to-ini was ridiculously strong.

Zodryn.4216:

ThrynDrakarian.3179:

I should note I could see a split of say 75%, 50% and 25% when traited into my proposed Ricochet-lite working well, but I’d rather foster good reasonable discussion with starting at a reasonable point and debating it than requesting something outright broken and then being surprised the answer is just “no”.

If ricochet always bounced to three targets and dealt 50% to each extra target, in the absolute best case possible (all bullets hit everyone and every single one crits) that’s:

14186 + ( 7093 * 3 ) = 35465 damage total vs 4 targets

A lot, right? Well, now let’s look at another skill. I ran the same set up to test mind wrack. Zerk, scholar etc. with mental anguish and compounding power. Second try mind wrack destroyed the light golem, or about 14k. It consistently did around 12k. This can hit 5 targets, so absolute best case that’s:

14k * 5 = 70k damage total vs 5 targets

They each have advantages and disadvantages. Mind wrack is harder to hit the maximum amount of targets with, but it has twice the damage potential in a single use and can be instantaneous if set up right, so it’s harder to dodge or react to. Unload has no cooldown, and can be cast 3 times plus 1 per five seconds if initiative is full to start. To keep the maximum damage potential per unload, though, you need to use it once per 5 seconds. It’s also very easy to react to and dodge, block or what have you to mitigate the damage.

Many other AoE skills could also be looked at for comparison. A lot of classes have great 1v1 damage, but can also pressure whole groups because most of that damage is AoE. I don’t really see how ricochet is any different. We keep good single target damage, while gaining decent team fight pressure. If it’s really too strong, you can just reduce the damage on the bounces until it’s reasonable. You don’t need to also take away the single target damage.

/End rant

The problem is with other classes AoEs in comparison to Ricochet is those are often ‘circles’ around whatever target, Ricochet never was and could go in weird ways due to this, potentially hitting targets up to 450 range in any direction from the initial target (assuming for having 2 near enough for the first 2 bounces) .

The original version was 50% chance of bounce per target hit, up to 4 targets hit total – effectively modifiers of 100%, 50%, 25% & 12.5% for a total of 187.5%, as opposed to your 250% suggestion for 4 targets on a weapon set that’s recently had a near 20% flat output boost.

Using your scenario and best case damage numbers you can dump out around the following:
- 140k damage in 6 secs (assuming no interrupts/death), 56k of that to the initial target, and 28k each to 3 other targets
- 14k Healing if you took Invigorating Precision,
- 17.5k healing if you take Signet of Malice (mine does 137 per attack – 32 * 137 = 4384 per Ricochet Unload) .

That is what – 9k dps to initial target, 4.7k dps to each bounced one, PLUS 5.25k self heal-per-second? Effectively 4 dead players in PvP in 3 seconds, tonnes of dead stuff in PvE, and a very hard to kill thief due to the regen unless you design things high enough to outright oneshot a thief. Way WAY too high to be considered acceptable at range, especially if you opened with a Sneak Attack that bounced and bleeds all 4 targets first.

At that point, why would you bother taking any other weapon set as your main at all? Less risk, high output for much less effort than melee choices, way more survivability due to the ridiculous level of regen.

A 250% constantly on boost in output vs 4 targets is just not going to get greenlit as a dev choice. It also means the trait would no longer really be optional as opposed to mandatory – ‘optimal’ rotation is of course not the same as ‘can be done’ rotation which is what things need to be balanced around, especially given thief weapon skills running on Initiative not hard CD like other classes.

The highest amount you can get away without issue is a total split of 187.5%, as otherwise it interacts very poorly from a balance perspective (and even then you get 75% of the figures I listed above, using only 1 skill repeatedly and zero utilities/elites) leading to a snowballing of rebalances, nerfs and breaking of other options which is something we haven’t had much luck with

if you have any constructive ideas ive started a post to compile them all

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/lets-be-so-constructive-it-actually-hurts/first#post5553726

Actually, if ricochet allowed a bounce it always went to the maximum number of targets. The chance didn’t reset per bounce. Crit chance is separate though. The trade off for easier multitarget hits compared to AoE is the 250% cap vs 500% of AoE. Original ricochet could sometimes give 400% though if you were lucky.

Edit: also do you wonder why P/P wasn’t meta even when ricochet was available? Because it’s really not as good as you make it seem on paper. It does a lot of damage, but one dodge or block mitigates a huge amount of your dps and prevents bouncing. Also in a realistic scenario you don’t hit 14k on every unload. More like 7-9k depending on your target.

Edit 2: you mention that ricochet would be mandatory if it existed. Well, you’re absolutely right, which is why so many people are bummed that it’s gone. It wasn’t an auto win trait, it was necessary to make any kind of contribution on P/P. It was also fun. For this reason, I support making it baseline, BUT I want to be able to choose the trait so I can decide whether to have shadow shot bounce or not.

I agree 100% with these updates to thief, but let’s not forget bringing back the original Feline’s Grace. I miss my endurance gain on dodge! (Even if it had to be a selected trait)

Luto.1938:

I agree 100% with these updates to thief, but let’s not forget bringing back the original Feline’s Grace. I miss my endurance gain on dodge! (Even if it had to be a selected trait)

Agreed. I doubt it’ll happen though. They should at least give us some natural vigor (like ranger) in acro that stacks with normal vigor.