Guild Wars 2

While many topics have been created on this , I think another warranted as this line, next to Acro has the most issues. It not so much the traits themselves as it is the placement of the same wherein wherein it pretty hard to select anything BUT a single trait at any given spot outside a few niche builds. As such there is more just a reshuffling going on. If traits remain underwhelming they can be looked at some other time.

Shadows Embrace is quite obviously the single largest example of this as it remains the go to trait in this line for virtually every build. There are some few that do not use it but diversity in builds suffers. As such.

Minor adept. Remove merciful Ambush. Replace with Meld with Shadows.

Major Adept.

Shadows Embrace is removed it replaced with merciful Ambush. Merciful ambush has deception skills recharge 20 percent faster added.

Concealed defeat is removed entirely. It is replaced with Cloaked in Shadows. Cloaked in Shadows becomes . On stealth blind nearby opponents.

Last refuge remains as is , no changes.

Minor Master. Meld with shadows has been moved. It is replaced with Shadows Embrace.

Major master all remain the same.

Grandmaster.

Shadows rejuvenation and Venomous Aura remain as is no changes.

CIS. This becomes Stealths Survivor. The trait maintains its falling trait. Added to the skill is Fleet shadow with while stealthed gain 50 percent movement speed.

I believe this will create greater synergy inside the line without reworking the line in its entirety. It will help those with deception based builds get lower cooldowns on those utilities. It will help those that feel the need for stealth on blind. It can add greatly to survival at GM with the choice of speed in stealth for escapes or Rejuv for health gain and INI in battle.

Builds that do not overly rely on stealth and go that route for other reasons (ie Venom builds) garner more benefit. Nothing outside the smokescreen on being downed is lost and I doubt any took that trait in any case.

I would argue that Critical Strikes in a worse position than SA. That said, your suggestions are pretty sound and much more level-headed than what most people are proposing for SA to give.

With these changes, CiS + S.Embrace S.Protector + S.Rejuv will still be the pick no matter what, which means these changes failed to offer diversity.

If the goal is diversity, trash traits like Last Refuge, Concealed Defeat, and Hidden Thief needs to be deleted and make Venom Aura as an innate ability of venoms — reduced cooldown and party share.

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

Example; Shadow Leash — Your next attack while in combat has shadow step. 3s ICD. (this ability will teleport the Thief before the attack hits)

This trait will grant other melee weapons an ability to close the gap. It’s not as good as D/P but it’s good enough trait to compete in a GM slot if Venom Aura would go away and become an innate venom ability.

Another trait that would be better than Last Refuge is Shadow Form. This will grant the Thief invulnerability for 2s when their health drops to 25%. The Thief in this form will neither receive or deal damage. This does not stealth the Thief, just making them intangible.

These traits will definitely open up other none stealth-based builds.

Edit: typo

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

I’m going to ignore the balance concern with 3s teleports because it’s very, very, very overpowered. What makes D/P strong is Shadow Shot, and basically giving out one for free so rapidly is a huge balance concern.

Thing is, this would just still be used by D/P, and still make D/P even better than it is now, on the principle is basically saves D/P four initiative to engage for a backstab. Other weapon sets would still require additional setup, despite the free teleport being “nice”.

The only way to fix other weapons is through the other weapons themselves. No adjustments to traits, unless awkwardly specific, would do anything, in which case, those traits are either front-loaded and accelerate one set too much, or are strictly worse, making the set even worse than it was before due to stacking extra dependencies.

SA is meant for stealthy play almost exclusively. Don’t like/use stealth? Don’t play SA. It really is that easy, and if other styles of play aren’t considered or aren’t as good, then other trait lines for those styles (CS/Acro) need adjustments accordingly, rather than just making SA more generic, as then sub-builds within SA can be identified as superior and balancing just becomes even more difficult and the trait line just becomes even more of a dependency than it already is.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

I’m going to ignore the balance concern with 3s teleports because it’s very, very, very overpowered. What makes D/P strong is Shadow Shot, and basically giving out one for free so rapidly is a huge balance concern.

Numbers are tweakable.

Thing is, this would just still be used by D/P, and still make D/P even better than it is now, on the principle is basically saves D/P four initiative to engage for a backstab. Other weapon sets would still require additional setup, despite the free teleport being “nice”.

But you have to look at what D/P has to sacrifice to get this. D/P will have to give S.Rejuv for this…which I don’t believe will be a good tradeoff. Thus as I’ve mentioned, this trait will be appealing to non-stealth builds.

The only way to fix other weapons is through the other weapons themselves. No adjustments to traits, unless awkwardly specific, would do anything, in which case, those traits are either front-loaded and accelerate one set too much, or are strictly worse, making the set even worse than it was before due to stacking extra dependencies.

“Fixing” the weapon skills will not create diversity. SA will always be a stealth trait line unless they stop making it so.

SA is meant for stealthy play almost exclusively. Don’t like/use stealth? Don’t play SA.

The diversity goal is tossed out the window and the 3 traits I listed above will always be picked no matter what. Why pick Venom Aura if SA is stealth exclusive? Why pick “Stealth Survivor” over S. Rejuv? Why pick Leeching venom over Shadow Protector?

Shadow Arts should not be stealth exclusive. It should give traits for both stealth and non-stealth builds. As of right now, the only non-stealth build going SA is venom share — which is out of place since venom has no correlation with Shadow Arts…it is more of a Deadly Arts than Shadow Arts. Shadow Art should support both stealth and shadowstep for non-stealth.

D/P never picked CiS – they don’t need it. They go for hidden thief which makes more sense for them anyway. It’s only P/D and D/D who might have picked CiS and who needed it.

In general: I think the traitline is really bad, boring and doesn’t give what it’s supposed to give = sustain. I don’t like the redesign at all. And no, I don’t have any ideas how to redesign the traits as I either want the old line back or something smart new.

Jana.6831:

D/P never picked CiS – they don’t need it. They go for hidden thief which makes more sense for them anyway. It’s only P/D and D/D who might have picked CiS and who needed it.

I was actually thinking about the weapon sets that would normally pick it — S/D and D/D, but yes you’re right, D/P don’t need it.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

I’m going to ignore the balance concern with 3s teleports because it’s very, very, very overpowered. What makes D/P strong is Shadow Shot, and basically giving out one for free so rapidly is a huge balance concern.

Numbers are tweakable.

Thing is, this would just still be used by D/P, and still make D/P even better than it is now, on the principle is basically saves D/P four initiative to engage for a backstab. Other weapon sets would still require additional setup, despite the free teleport being “nice”.

But you have to look at what D/P has to sacrifice to get this. D/P will have to give S.Rejuv for this…which I don’t believe will be a good tradeoff. Thus as I’ve mentioned, this trait will be appealing to non-stealth builds.

The only way to fix other weapons is through the other weapons themselves. No adjustments to traits, unless awkwardly specific, would do anything, in which case, those traits are either front-loaded and accelerate one set too much, or are strictly worse, making the set even worse than it was before due to stacking extra dependencies.

“Fixing” the weapon skills will not create diversity. SA will always be a stealth trait line unless they stop making it so.

SA is meant for stealthy play almost exclusively. Don’t like/use stealth? Don’t play SA.

The diversity goal is tossed out the window and the 3 traits I listed above will always be picked no matter what. Why pick Venom Aura if SA is stealth exclusive? Why pick “Stealth Survivor” over S. Rejuv? Why pick Leeching venom over Shadow Protector?

Shadow Arts should not be stealth exclusive. It should give traits for both stealth and non-stealth builds. As of right now, the only non-stealth build going SA is venom share — which is out of place since venom has no correlation with Shadow Arts…it is more of a Deadly Arts than Shadow Arts. Shadow Art should support both stealth and shadowstep for non-stealth.

Despite D/P sacrificing Rejuv, so does every other thief using the ability. D/P already has the best synergy with the SA line as a whole. Okay, so maybe this trait can let D/D hard engage, but it still has stealth access reliability problems which D/P doesn’t, and D/P’s weapon set abilities are innately still better while not in stealth, which is what really matters if playing a stealth-based build, unless you’re never actually leaving stealth to begin with.

SA will only be “required” (it isn’t so much anymore with DD) so long as D/P is the best weapon set and trait lines like CS and Acro are bad, as well as if the concepts behind the styles of play behind sheer +1 against a lot of pressure-based builds are hard-countered aggressively. DA/Tr/DD and DA/SA/Tr are considered the best because Trickery is a required trait line that even builds using CS and Acro need, DD is just power-creep on every trait line and offers similar utility capacity to SA except with more evasion and damage, and DA provides a lot of much-needed damage and control to compensate and round-off the other lines. Putting more power in SA and more dependency here will not resolve build diversity on a greater level – all it does is let the same trait lines function slightly differently, and frankly, the meta will evolve to favor one of these builds in the end, anyways, leaving not only other trait lines, but traits within those lines as being unnecessary, leading to the same potential diversity we basically have now, except on the same weapons and trait lines.

I would be okay with changing DA to include poison and venom builds, but I fear it might make the trait line too strong. I think ANet’s balance ideology here was to offset venomshare with stealth, because team-wide venom application scaling with the thief’s condition damage where the thief never needs to engage in combat/be seen is kind of broken as a concept.

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

DeceiverX.8361:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

I’m going to ignore the balance concern with 3s teleports because it’s very, very, very overpowered. What makes D/P strong is Shadow Shot, and basically giving out one for free so rapidly is a huge balance concern.

Numbers are tweakable.

Thing is, this would just still be used by D/P, and still make D/P even better than it is now, on the principle is basically saves D/P four initiative to engage for a backstab. Other weapon sets would still require additional setup, despite the free teleport being “nice”.

But you have to look at what D/P has to sacrifice to get this. D/P will have to give S.Rejuv for this…which I don’t believe will be a good tradeoff. Thus as I’ve mentioned, this trait will be appealing to non-stealth builds.

The only way to fix other weapons is through the other weapons themselves. No adjustments to traits, unless awkwardly specific, would do anything, in which case, those traits are either front-loaded and accelerate one set too much, or are strictly worse, making the set even worse than it was before due to stacking extra dependencies.

“Fixing” the weapon skills will not create diversity. SA will always be a stealth trait line unless they stop making it so.

SA is meant for stealthy play almost exclusively. Don’t like/use stealth? Don’t play SA.

The diversity goal is tossed out the window and the 3 traits I listed above will always be picked no matter what. Why pick Venom Aura if SA is stealth exclusive? Why pick “Stealth Survivor” over S. Rejuv? Why pick Leeching venom over Shadow Protector?

Shadow Arts should not be stealth exclusive. It should give traits for both stealth and non-stealth builds. As of right now, the only non-stealth build going SA is venom share — which is out of place since venom has no correlation with Shadow Arts…it is more of a Deadly Arts than Shadow Arts. Shadow Art should support both stealth and shadowstep for non-stealth.

Despite D/P sacrificing Rejuv, so does every other thief using the ability. D/P already has the best synergy with the SA line as a whole. Okay, so maybe this trait can let D/D hard engage, but it still has stealth access reliability problems which D/P doesn’t, and D/P’s weapon set abilities are innately still better while not in stealth, which is what really matters if playing a stealth-based build, unless you’re never actually leaving stealth to begin with.

If D/P is willing to play without stealth and sacrificing Rejuv, then that would be a bad decision to pick D/P in the first place — might as well use D/D and S/D if that would be the case. The fact of the matter is, Rejuv is part of the D/P play style so it’s very unlikely that players who run D/P will pick “Shadow Leash” over Rejuv.

SA will only be “required” (it isn’t so much anymore with DD) so long as D/P is the best weapon set and trait lines like CS and Acro are bad, as well as if the concepts behind the styles of play behind sheer +1 against a lot of pressure-based builds are hard-countered aggressively.

It’s not so much about CS and Acro being bad, rather SA has nothing to offer non-stealth other than venom share. That is the main issue. So to open build diversity with SA, it needs to also give something to non-stealth and get rid of the venom traits and make Venom Aura innate to venom.

DA/Tr/DD and DA/SA/Tr are considered the best because Trickery is a required trait line that even builds using CS and Acro need, DD is just power-creep on every trait line and offers similar utility capacity to SA except with more evasion and damage, and DA provides a lot of much-needed damage and control to compensate and round-off the other lines. Putting more power in SA and more dependency here will not resolve build diversity on a greater level – all it does is let the same trait lines function slightly differently, and frankly, the meta will evolve to favor one of these builds in the end, anyways, leaving not only other trait lines, but traits within those lines as being unnecessary, leading to the same potential diversity we basically have now, except on the same weapons and trait lines.

It’s not putting more power to SA, rather giving it traits that it can offer to non-stealth. If SA can offer traits that improve a non-stealth playstyle centered on shadowstep, then it has something to give to a more aggressive build that dislike hiding in shadows. SA should be competing with Acro in regards of elusiveness. Giving Thief a way to shadowstep in combat is no different than giving them evasion.

I would be okay with changing DA to include poison and venom builds, but I fear it might make the trait line too strong. I think ANet’s balance ideology here was to offset venomshare with stealth, because team-wide venom application scaling with the thief’s condition damage where the thief never needs to engage in combat/be seen is kind of broken as a concept.

My idea about Venom Aura is to give it to each venom skill. Much like Warrior’s Banner, Thief’s venom will be automatically shared when activated. No need to jam the trait into DA. Leeching Venom, on the other hand, can replace Trappers Respite.

Honestly with the changes to rezzing I’m pretty sure the old shadow arts meta build is going to be brought back into the limelight and there’s going to be a lot of play between thief rez and rev/engi’s revealing the rez’s.

Shadow Arts the way it is will be strong after the upcoming changes.

Honestly: I hate rezzing traits – rezzing used to be an extra, now we’re pushed into the trinity.

Rejuv isn’t part of the D/P play style. It’s a cornerstone to SA as a whole because it’s one of the few actually good ( and I mean absolutely amazing) traits the line has. Yes, D/P has some initiative concerns, but in the scope of the incoming changes and the nature of Daredevil, it needs just as much initiative to gain stealth as D/D, except it can do so out of range, out of combat, and simply, it can always gain the stealth.

D/D isn’t an option unless you play conditions. CnD is so objectively bad in the current state of the game through invuln and blind spamming (not even including blocks because let’s just assume the thief can overcome a CnD via BV) that it’s not even worth the initiative to cast; better run Blinding Powder or Smoke Screen for the reliable stealth.

And crit strikes has use for anything not used for crits? Is Acrobatics useful for a stealth-based or crit style of play? CS/Acro/SA cover different bases and handle diversity through picking a line and then allow for customization tweaks within it. That’s the purpose of trait lines; they revolve around a common theme and style, and there are some different options within.

Should some of these options overlap? Certainly. But only to the extent of basic concepts, like curing a condition through different means, or enabling more damage or different types of utility. We already have a huge issue where Trickery and even DD are considered “mandatory” for basic functionality. The trait lines are this way because there is too much variety and too many objectively good things in these trait lines. DD and Trickery can be traited and built in many different ways with a very distinct style in each one. Almost all of them are high-performance and offer a lot of completeness to the thief. Putting strictly more styles into one trait line will not help the thief but ultimately cut diversity even more, or result in the same exact identity crisis we have now. Yes, we need some overlap, but simply adding better/more effects to trait lines way out of their element in style of play won’t help resolve the weapon identity or trait identity crises we have. If this occurs for all trait lines, then the ones with the best stacking potential will simply be selected, and D/P will pretty much remain the chosen set because its weapon skills are unanimously the best the thief has on a given set.

I can say now that as a D/D player, I would never take the proposed suggestion over Rejuv if I was intending to play so aggressively. I’d instead just run Rejuv and play D/P because it would be objectively superior. D/P, and SA as a whole have synergy together due to capitalizing on high stealth uptime. D/D is much more aggressive in nature and focuses on bursts of stealth for short durations while in melee combat. If I want to be aggressive, I’m going to go in with a bang or pick a trait line concept that rewards aggressive play – like Crit Strikes or DA – rather than bunker stealth as per what SA pushes for with intermittent periods of non-stealth. Teleporting follow-up is better on a short cooldown for D/P because it could BP + leap = (3s) → Leash-Backstab for free → disengage BP → leap (3s) and do it again without ever needing to use initiative for Shadow Shot, whereas to gain stealth on D/D, you’d need to sustain for that re-stealth or disengage and sit around doing nothing for several seconds waiting on a free gap close. Plus, then if the target does teleport after the free leash, D/D gets screwed and D/P can just Shadow Shot to double-up on closing the gap. Actually, I’d argue this buffs D/P even more than D/D or any variant, because it could just universally double-up on gap-closing to a point where it’d be next to impossible to escape D/P, making it offensively and defensively superior to D/D.

Passive VA is too strong. The build is already very scary in the right hands for fight-based builds rather than point-sustain ones (you see this in WvW a ton and saw it in courtyard in the past). Again, AOE sharing with attached sustain and sustain from leeching venoms is just too much from how safe the build would be and how much damage it would contribute. Maybe if they made the venoms apply damage based on the condition damage of the person applied as it used to be, but this really shuts down condi venoms hard, which I think is a more fun and interesting builds to play as and against. Passive stealth-sharing-sustain-DPS out of one trait line seems like too much, which is why I raised the concern about it above. The split to DA is to make people commit for such a build, but my concern about its strength and safety of play still stands. Particularly since BV is being made to make the next incoming attacks unblockable.

Wait, you want to increase the diversity of Shadow Arts by taking out one of the diversity traits of Shadow Arts, Venomous Aura? What you want is more traits like Venomous Aura that provides alternatives to pure stealth styles but still complement using stealth.

DeceiverX.8361:

Rejuv isn’t part of the D/P play style. It’s a cornerstone to SA as a whole because it’s one of the few actually good ( and I mean absolutely amazing) traits the line has. Yes, D/P has some initiative concerns, but in the scope of the incoming changes and the nature of Daredevil, it needs just as much initiative to gain stealth as D/D, except it can do so out of range, out of combat, and simply, it can always gain the stealth.

The difference is, D/D has a survivability built into the weapon set which they are less inclined to go on stealth. D/P, on the other, has a nerfed, and an unreliable source of blind, BP and no access to evade within the weapon set, thus SA and Rejuv is a perfect fit for D/P because D/P has no other defensive capability other than the nerfed BP.

D/D isn’t an option unless you play conditions. CnD is so objectively bad in the current state of the game through invuln and blind spamming (not even including blocks because let’s just assume the thief can overcome a CnD via BV) that it’s not even worth the initiative to cast; better run Blinding Powder or Smoke Screen for the reliable stealth.

Well, yes, this set has a major problem of its own. However, if the SA trait line offers a shadowstep trait like “Shadow Leash”, D/D and other melee weapons can be as aggressive as D/P. CnD would not be too unreliable if it comes with a shadowstep ability.

And crit strikes has use for anything not used for crits? Is Acrobatics useful for a stealth-based or crit style of play? CS/Acro/SA cover different bases and handle diversity through picking a line and then allow for customization tweaks within it. That’s the purpose of trait lines; they revolve around a common theme and style, and there are some different options within.

Acro is not like SA. Thief’s main abilities are Stealth and Shadowstep, however lately it is focusing too much on evasion. So naturally, SA should provide traits for both stealth and shadowstep rather than making it a stealth exclusive. Acrobatics is an odd traitline that was newly introduced to GW2. GW1 Assassin, for which most of the Thief’s trait lines comes from, doesn’t even have Acrobatics. So yeah, it’s an odd traitline that the Devs are trying to fit into the Thief profession.

Should some of these options overlap? Certainly. But only to the extent of basic concepts, like curing a condition through different means, or enabling more damage or different types of utility. We already have a huge issue where Trickery and even DD are considered “mandatory” for basic functionality. The trait lines are this way because there is too much variety and too many objectively good things in these trait lines. DD and Trickery can be traited and built in many different ways with a very distinct style in each one. Almost all of them are high-performance and offer a lot of completeness to the thief. Putting strictly more styles into one trait line will not help the thief but ultimately cut diversity even more, or result in the same exact identity crisis we have now. Yes, we need some overlap, but simply adding better/more effects to trait lines way out of their element in style of play won’t help resolve the weapon identity or trait identity crises we have. If this occurs for all trait lines, then the ones with the best stacking potential will simply be selected, and D/P will pretty much remain the chosen set because its weapon skills are unanimously the best the thief has on a given set.

DD stole a lot of traits that would improve the Core traits and most of them would have improved Acrobatics.

- Weakening Strike obviously belongs in CS and can easily replace Flawless Strikes.
- Extra dodge, Driven Fortitude, Escapist absolution, Endurance Thief, and Dash are all good for Acrobatics. They can then trash Fleet of Shadow, Guarded, Swindler, and Upper Hand then add those abilities from DD.

And the fact that all these traits are in DD is the root of the Acrobatics problem, that’s why DD seems to be a big partner of Trick. If these traits are given to Acro, the Core specs will be more diversified. Even more so when partnered with a shadowstep SA traits — such Thief will be both elusive and evasive, a completely new playstyle.

I can say now that as a D/D player, I would never take the proposed suggestion over Rejuv if I was intending to play so aggressively. I’d instead just run Rejuv and play D/P because it would be objectively superior. D/P, and SA as a whole have synergy together due to capitalizing on high stealth uptime. D/D is much more aggressive in nature and focuses on bursts of stealth for short durations while in melee combat. If I want to be aggressive, I’m going to go in with a bang or pick a trait line concept that rewards aggressive play – like Crit Strikes or DA – rather than bunker stealth as per what SA pushes for with intermittent periods of non-stealth. Teleporting follow-up is better on a short cooldown for D/P because it could BP + leap = (3s) -> Leash-Backstab for free -> disengage BP -> leap (3s) and do it again without ever needing to use initiative for Shadow Shot, whereas to gain stealth on D/D, you’d need to sustain for that re-stealth or disengage and sit around doing nothing for several seconds waiting on a free gap close. Plus, then if the target does teleport after the free leash, D/D gets screwed and D/P can just Shadow Shot to double-up on closing the gap. Actually, I’d argue this buffs D/P even more than D/D or any variant, because it could just universally double-up on gap-closing to a point where it’d be next to impossible to escape D/P, making it offensively and defensively superior to D/D.

I doubt that since D/P relies on stealth and Rejuv for defensive purposes. D/D has evade, D/P has only a nerfed blind AoE. “Shadow Leash” will not be exclusive to D/D rather it will be a good pick for non-stealth builds like S/P, P/P and S/B. If you build D/P or D/D to rely on stealth, then of course SR is the right pick, otherwise SA has something to offer for non-stealth.

Passive VA is too strong. The build is already very scary in the right hands for fight-based builds rather than point-sustain ones (you see this in WvW a ton and saw it in courtyard in the past). Again, AOE sharing with attached sustain and sustain from leeching venoms is just too much from how safe the build would be and how much damage it would contribute. Maybe if they made the venoms apply damage based on the condition damage of the person applied as it used to be, but this really shuts down condi venoms hard, which I think is a more fun and interesting builds to play as and against. Passive stealth-sharing-sustain-DPS out of one trait line seems like too much, which is why I raised the concern about it above. The split to DA is to make people commit for such a build, but my concern about its strength and safety of play still stands. Particularly since BV is being made to make the next incoming attacks unblockable.

I really don’t see the reasoning behind the fear of making VA innate to venom when other professions have something far worst (i.e. Banner, Spirits, Virtue of Justice, etc.) Keep in mind that Venom has an insane long cooldown of 32s (if VA is innate and CDR is baseline). Virtue of Justice, for example, is on a 25s CD untraited and even nastier when traited with extended burning on a 21s CD. Banner of Might has a passive 6 stacks of might for everyone. And so on. So yeah, I don’t see why innate VA it perceived to be “too strong”.

Proven.2854:

Wait, you want to increase the diversity of Shadow Arts by taking out one of the diversity traits of Shadow Arts, Venomous Aura? What you want is more traits like Venomous Aura that provides alternatives to pure stealth styles but still complement using stealth.

That would pigeon hole builds to build around stealth. What I propose if to replace VA with something about shadowstep to give non-stealth build a choice in SA trait line. Va will then function like any other party sharing skills other professions have.

Shadow Shot is the most efficient skill in the game, the most reliable blind in the game, and offers huge damage on basically no cast time. Shadow Shot against a single-hit skill is always objectively better to use than Death Blossom. Black Powder also has niche defenses, and if you run P/P, the projectile finishers can permablind people. The nerf to BP needed to happen. It used to be border-line invuln when you positioned properly. I played a P/P healing power bunker build concept briefly and could out-blind a Hundred Blades the way it used to be. The skill is potent for its mobile/re-castable smoke field, anyways. Rejuv is amazing on literally any thief build using any amount of stealth. It’s free initiative and massive healing. There is no downside and frankly this and SE alone pretty much justify the entire SA line. Rejuv counters damage already taken and incoming condition ticks, and being in stealth helps mitigate future damage via not being targeted if you properly disengage. Evades are not retroactive fixes for incoming damage. Since DB also deals damage, it can’t be used for disengages and damage avoidance, either.

Again, we have two entirely different concepts at play here: SA is anti-sustained damage, Acro is anti-burst. Daredevil is both. Just like how CS is critical damage, DA isn’t. Daredevil is also both. Acrobatics is a new concept because of the active defense/re-positioning and evades in combat that GW1 lacked. Again, SA is sustained damage mitigation and recovery and Acrobatics is preventative anti-burst. We can’t compare the traits from GW1 to GW2 because the entire class is intended to be functionally different. ANet’s own words include making the thief different from GW1’s Assassin. We’re inspired to fit the archetype, but that is not in our core design philosophy.

No other traitline until DD modified dodges and evasion so heavily. I wouldn’t call it odd. I’d call it the recognition of why we have low base health pools and the initial understanding of the power behind dodge rolls and evasion. No other class is supposed to be as agile. But since DD does this as well, they gutted it for balance reasons since ANet was inept at coming up with a better concept. Old Acro + DD would be way overpowered.

Weakening Strike already exists in DA through Serpent’s Touch and Lotus Training. DA is the debilitating conditions line. Again, this is just DD being better versions of what we have now.

Comparing the benefits of Rejuv on D/P to Death Blossom on D/D doesn’t make sense. Rejuv offers sustained damage mitigation, damage recovery, and condition damage negation all while allowing for the setup or burst or unnoticeable re-positions and target breaking while Death Blossom is counter-burst via an evade and nothing else, and in the instance of a trap like Maw/area denial skills, actually hurts the thief more upon use. These are two completely different types of defense with two substantially different purposes. It is for this reason we have two offensive trait lines – DA and CS – and two defensive ones – SA and Acro – because the types of offensive and defensive strategies employed are substantially different.

SA works fine for x/D and is not at all unique or particularly conducive to any shortcomings of D/P. The problem with x/D is that x/D itself is strictly worse than D/P in regards to its stealth reliability, and since SA is stronger than Acro, (especially now with DD covering Acro and offering plenty of damage close to DA and CS), and stealth is a strong mechanic, it’s just intrinsically optimal to play D/P over all other weapons.

Yes, the thief lacks build diversity, but it’s not because the traits in SA are not expansive enough – it’s because the traits in CS and Acro are horrible and simply not as good, and the weapon skills on D/P are also objectively better than the rest, and D/P coincidentally offers very good synergy with both lines. As I mentioned above, if you want a different style of play, pick a different trait line or weapon set. S/D offers such engage potential; you can engage off of S/D and swap into whatever other weapon desired. If the other weapons and trait lines aren’t as appealing, the responsibility lies in buffing those under-performing weapons and trait lines. And you’re right; DD killed diversity due to ANet’s ineptness at coming up with a new idea. That said, Acro/SA was used in the past on more resilient builds. This proposal simply doesn’t fit within what SA is supposed to offer – sustained damage mitigation/sustained fight suppoty with an emphasis on stealth and deception – and due to the very aggressive nature of the concept and my aforementioned explanation as to why the ability does nothing unique for other weapons and potentially reduces build diversity, I would argue the concept belongs in an entirely new trait line/Elite specialization.

As far as shared venoms being baseline, it’d just be too strong to make baseline. Trust me there. The notion of Poisons and Venoms is more applicable to DA than SA, and is why I suggested it, as it would allow a venomshare build to use stealth for the investment of DA utilizing the support of SA. Picking trait lines should come with apparent drawbacks. Obviously then it misses out on Tr and DD combined, but this is reasonable for what a build is trying to accomplish if it is trying to fulfill a niche. I am still concerned it would be too strong, however, but that’s another topic.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With these changes, CiS + S.Embrace S.Protector + S.Rejuv will still be the pick no matter what, which means these changes failed to offer diversity.

If the goal is diversity, trash traits like Last Refuge, Concealed Defeat, and Hidden Thief needs to be deleted and make Venom Aura as an innate ability of venoms — reduced cooldown and party share.

Shadow Arts is more than just stealth, they can add traits that takes advantage of shadow step. D/P’s advantage over other melee weapon set is its ability to stick to the target. What if we get a trait that grants shadow step on our attacks every 3s?

Example; Shadow Leash — Your next attack while in combat has shadow step. 3s ICD. (this ability will teleport the Thief before the attack hits)

This trait will grant other melee weapons an ability to close the gap. It’s not as good as D/P but it’s good enough trait to compete in a GM slot if Venom Aura would go away and become an innate venom ability.

Another trait that would be better than Last Refuge is Shadow Form. This will grant the Thief invulnerability for 2s when their health drops to 25%. The Thief in this form will neither receive or deal damage. This does not stealth the Thief, just making them intangible.

These traits will definitely open up other none stealth-based builds.

Edit: typo

I disagree entirely with your assessment here of CIS/ Sp? and Sr being the only things used.. I have a wealth of builds that would not use these three.

I will give examples.

D/D condition. Yes the DB spam. With leeching venoms traited this build has tremendous sustain and a high amount of condition damage. It does not rely on stealth for sustain at all so would never take Rejuv or Shadow protector.

If roaming in a group it would likely use Aura and share it with teamates. if roaming alone the build would likely prefer Basi venom as the elite as it much better against single targets then the other two choices. As such Venomous Aura would be turned off and the new Stealth survivor taken. D/D has mobility issues but will often trait SR as an escape mechanism. With Survivors they can use SR and then move across the map quickly at no ini cost or get out of danger if need be. In the Major adept, CIS would be of no use. One can either take Merciful and get a lower cooldown on deception skills or use Last refuge as a sort of get out of jail free card if in trouble. Ie your health drops you stealth and cleanse two conditions.

Staff builds with SA.

Yes I use one of these in WvW and it works very well. It adds greatly to survival not because of Refuge but because of condition cleanse on stealth along with the ability to force the enemy to lose his target.

My Staff build is based on interrupts and the use of knockdown using PI for extra damage. Hook strike is a tremendous skill and using SA I can get stealth without burning INI and swapping weapon sets.

In GM I would take Stealth Survivor. This so that I can rapidly puruse an enemy while stealthed so as to get that knockdown. This also works very well with the falling trait as you take half damage and get an immediate stealth. Any that follow in a chase can be hook striked down followed by a vault or impact strike.

In the major master I definitely take hidden thief. On steal this will rapidly close me to an enemy and allow an immediate hook strike. If trickery traited this can be done every 21 seconds with a potential to interrupt twice and trigger that PI.

In major adept CIS does little good as I already have blind in the staff. I would much prefer the Merciful ambush as this will lower the cooldown on deception utilties. In deception Shadowstep is often traited as the Stun Break and the lowered cooldown will make this skill much more usable. HIS becomes very competitive here as on a 24 second cooldown I can now stealth and clear off 5 conditions allowing me to immediately hookstrike with staff after a heal.

Last refuge is also a choice as the build is not structured around stealth for damage mitigation but rather evades. With this traited I can get another hook strike in or rapidly relocate on the map with the Fleet shadow component to setup an attack.

Often the enemy is just out of reach of a vault. I can use HIS or BP to gain stealth, dash towards the enemy at 50 percent higher speed and then vault into him. he will not see what is coming.

D/D power. Hidden Thief IMO is vastly superior here over shadow protector. I can couple this with Merciful for lower cooldown on my decpetions (HIS , Shadowstep) or take the CIS. Traiting the New BV and CIS I can use hidden thief at range to close on an enemy rapidly which blinds the enemy and get off a backstab. Use the more damaging AA attacks on the dagger in quick succession and then load BV. Timed right I can then Cloak and dagger which can not be blocked followed by an immediate backstab.

S/d see above. Use hidden thief at range after swapping to a weapon with sigil of intel. Load up BV prior. The three attacks from sword AA are then used in rapid succession with the first inflicting blind or daze from stealth.

s/d does not spend a lot of time in stealth but SR will work nicely as an Out and use either the rejuv to get back health or the speed from fleet shadow to rapidly relocate on map.

I really like the idea of making Shadow’s Embrace an Adept trait. If I were king for a day, here’s how I would change Shadow Arts:

Minor Adept – Meld With Shadows

• Major Adept – Master of Deception (Deception abilities recharge faster, no Smoke Screen)
• Major Adept – Last Refuge
• Major Adept – Merciful Ambush

Master Adept – Resilience of Shadows

• Major Master – Hidden Thief
• Major Master – Leaching Venoms
• Major Master – Cloaked in Shadow

Minor Grandmaster – Shadow’s Embrace

• Major Grandmaster – Infusion of Shadows (Gain 2 initiative when entering stealth)
• Major Grandmaster – Shadow’s Rejuvenation (Regenerate health only)
• Major Grandmaster – Venomous Aura

Maybe also move the fall damage portion of Cloaked in Shadow to Hidden Thief…

From my thread.

Kicker.8203:

—Shadow Arts

• Shadow’s Embrace: Switches places with Merciful Ambush(has a wrong, 20% revive speed according to wiki).
  Reasoning: leaving this as a choice going to lower build diversity because of its
  usefulness.
• Concealed defeat: trait removed. Smoke Screen doesn’t help in downed state. It only draws more attention to you and you cannot combo with it.
• Starving Spider(new Adept): apply Spider Venom when you hit a foe with under 75% health(I believe venom take up too many utility spots thus leaving no room for defensive utilities that’s why they are unused)
• Last Refuge: Blinding powder proc can kill you almost half the time by revealing you just before you want to go into stealth by yourself, so I didn’t add deception recharge reduction here. Some people might like it so I left it as an option.
• Shadow Protector: Now gets 20% deception recharge rate coming from Concealed Defeat. (3 deception skills are stealth related anyway and this trait needed it)
• Cloaked in Shadows: Gaining stealth blinds nearby foes for 5 seconds. you move 50% faster while in stealth.(merged with an acrobatics trait)
• Shadow Rejuvenation: This trait is incentivizing very unhealthy gameplay(stealth camping). Rework: Revealing yourself from stealth by attacking heals you for ~2k base and grants 2 initiative.
  (If no rework: currently bugged, heals an extra tick every 3 ticks when stealth is reapplied before it ends.)

Then you should probably reorder the minor traits in Dagger.2035’s order, which is: Meld With Shadows, Resilience of Shadows, Shadow’s Embrace.