Guild Wars 2

There’s far too much mindless attack spam and AoE in the game. Allow properly traited thieves to punish bad play by removing ICD’s from traits that trigger on successful evade.

It’s not a huge change, but it’s a step in the right direction.

Because thieves should be able to zerg surf and heal 500 and remove a condition anywhere from 3-15 times per evade.

No. That just would not work.

At very VERY MOST if it were to be buffed it would be 1 per enemy per second. But even then that’s very overdoing it…

I think it needs to be 1sec cd because skills like hundred blades, pistol whip, etc will proc multiple evades with just one dodge roll. Happens quite often where you’ll see ‘Evade’ pop up several times on a roll. Skills like those aren’t really mindless spam, they’re just skills. Would be too OP if each one of those evades proc’d an ‘on evade’ trait.

I think removing two conditions per evade would be feasilble, since dodging would now also proc confusion.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Because thieves should be able to zerg surf and heal 500 and remove a condition anywhere from 3-15 times per evade.

The game is balanced around 5v5 PvP, not WvW. How good this would be in a WvW zerg has no place in a discussion about balance.

YOUNGaz.5690:

I think it needs to be 1sec cd because skills like hundred blades, pistol whip, etc will proc multiple evades with just one dodge roll. Happens quite often where you’ll see ‘Evade’ pop up several times on a roll. Skills like those aren’t really mindless spam, they’re just skills. Would be too OP if each one of those evades proc’d an ‘on evade’ trait.

But against thieves, those skills are just “mindless spam” – you can just throw kitten at the wall and see what stick. Against any other class in the game, to be effective you actually have to plan out your RF/HunBlades/PW – using the skill without setup and only landing a few swings is bad play. Against a thief landing just a few hits is fine – it works. Removing CD’s from “on evade” traits fixes this.

The effects don’t have to happen immediately – each evade could give you a stack of “Driven Fortitude”, “Escapists absolution” or “upper hand”, which tick in interval with their current listed CD. Regardless, thief needs better defensive and sustain options, and this is one way to accomplish that.

that’s a crazy suggestion… That means if you dodge 50 things in 3 seconds (like Ranger arrows and 3 AoE zone) , you may heal back to full HP with Driven Fortitude.

Kocoff.7582:

that’s a crazy suggestion… That means if you dodge 50 things in 3 seconds (like Ranger arrows and 3 AoE zone) , you may heal back to full HP with Driven Fortitude.

makes a good counter to these skills, against whom blocks and aegis are pretty crap. counterplay to the counterplay.

(multi-hit skills can’t have all the advantages of multiple hits and expect none of the drawbacks)

Kocoff.7582:

that’s a crazy suggestion… That means if you dodge 50 things in 3 seconds (like Ranger arrows and 3 AoE zone) , you may heal back to full HP with Driven Fortitude.

A) Your numbers are ridiculously hyperbolic – Even if we’re talking AoE’s that Pulse every .25s (I cant think of an AoE that pulses that quickly), dodging through three of those AoE’s wouldn’t even trigger 10 times.

B) The suggestion above your post mentioned that the benefits don’t have to necessarily be applied immediately – the effects could simply stack like a buff.

It pretty difficult to get more than three evades off any one attack. It is not a dodge , it is an evade. If someone did have “50 evades in 3 seconds” the consequences of having missed that “evade” will result in two things.

One you will simply dodge the attack and get a much smaller number of evades.

two you will be dead.

I think removing the ICD is a good idea and to address the concerns of it being OP rather than stacks what could be added is a limit of 3 procs per evade. Thus on a very successful evade either three heal procs or three conditions cleansed as an upper limit (or both).

This will add that sustain which is still lacking in the build.

while i like that idea of removing that 1s icd on the condi remove trait, i think it would be too strong for the minor trait which heals on evade. you would be on full health in group fights the whole time. you would have the healing capabilites of an d/d ele :>

knyy.6427:

while i like that idea of removing that 1s icd on the condi remove trait, i think it would be too strong for the minor trait which heals on evade. you would be on full health in group fights the whole time. you would have the healing capabilites of an d/d ele :>

I do not think so. In a group fight a thief will be taking damage from multiple sources. As example a backstab , a necro well , a eviscerate will down you instantly . If you manage to evade all the attacks at full health the evade does nothing, if right after that evade you hit again you are dead.

That said they could cap the upper limit of procs as I suggested.

To cap the proc limit would do enough i guess, didnt see that.

evilapprentice.6379:

The game is balanced around 5v5 PvP, not WvW. How good this would be in a WvW zerg has no place in a discussion about balance.

My mistake, I forgot that wvw wasn’t a part of this game and that no one should care what happens outside of a very narrow scope.

No cooldowns, limit on how many conds/hp you can heal per proc will suffice.

Ghotistyx.6942:

evilapprentice.6379:

The game is balanced around 5v5 PvP, not WvW. How good this would be in a WvW zerg has no place in a discussion about balance.

My mistake, I forgot that wvw wasn’t a part of this game and that no one should care what happens outside of a very narrow scope.

You can be kitten about it if you want, but WvW just isn’t the part of the game the balance team considers when making changes. It’s not as if I’m guessing, or I made the decision, they’ve come out and unambiguously stated that the game is balanced around 5v5 sPvP with standardized gear.

If it makes you feel better though, Babazhook made a good suggestion in a overall “per dodge activation” hardcap, which I think would be fair at 5 – it wouldn’t really matter for PvP, and would just be a WvW concession.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

No cooldowns, limit on how many conds/hp you can heal per proc will suffice.

Yeah, a 5 trigger hardcap per dodge seems fair.

The condi removal trait is already bordering at OP with a 1 sec ICD. I imagine post release that’s going to be nerfed to like 3 seconds.

Kadin.2356:

The condi removal trait is already bordering at OP with a 1 sec ICD. I imagine post release that’s going to be nerfed to like 3 seconds.

Please, elaborate. Just saying that it’s “Bordering on OP” provides nothing.

Please explain exactly how removing 1 condition on successful evade is “borderline OP”.

I’d rather see a cool down implementation of “remove a condition for each attack evaded up to 3 times. This trait recharges every 3 seconds.”

evilapprentice.6379:

Kadin.2356:

The condi removal trait is already bordering at OP with a 1 sec ICD. I imagine post release that’s going to be nerfed to like 3 seconds.

Please, elaborate. Just saying that it’s “Bordering on OP” provides nothing.

Please explain exactly how removing 1 condition on successful evade is “borderline OP”.

The condi removal potential on this ability is already very high compared to most other class’ options in that department. The only reason that even this much is justifiable is due to our low HP pool. I’d love for this to do more but I doubt it would pass any kind of balance check.

This needs to be based on a limit to how many condi/heals you get in 1s.

Something like max of 3 condi/3 heals per second or something. As to punish players spamming abilities during dodge but also not make it OP.

Current implementation of this is rather useless.

Kadin.2356:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kadin.2356:

The condi removal trait is already bordering at OP with a 1 sec ICD. I imagine post release that’s going to be nerfed to like 3 seconds.

Please, elaborate. Just saying that it’s “Bordering on OP” provides nothing.

Please explain exactly how removing 1 condition on successful evade is “borderline OP”.

The condi removal potential on this ability is already very high compared to most other class’ options in that department. The only reason that even this much is justifiable is due to our low HP pool. I’d love for this to do more but I doubt it would pass any kind of balance check.

LOL.
Yea, that’s why Revenant’s get a straight remove on dodge already.

They balance the game based on all game modes. Spvp might be affected the most by changes, but they aren’t going to allow ridiculous things to run rampant. No limit to healing and condition removal on evade fits exactly into that category. Even not in wvw, being able to remove 5 conditions and heal 2500 health isn’t unreasonable, and with dash dodge removing cripple and chill, staff 3 removing immobilize, and an 8-10 second stun break, when would a thief ever die?

Kadin.2356:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kadin.2356:

The condi removal trait is already bordering at OP with a 1 sec ICD. I imagine post release that’s going to be nerfed to like 3 seconds.

Please, elaborate. Just saying that it’s “Bordering on OP” provides nothing.

Please explain exactly how removing 1 condition on successful evade is “borderline OP”.

The condi removal potential on this ability is already very high compared to most other class’ options in that department. The only reason that even this much is justifiable is due to our low HP pool. I’d love for this to do more but I doubt it would pass any kind of balance check.

That’s your argument? What other classes get?
Where’s thief’s stability? resistance? protection? damage immunities? complete invulnerabilities? Hell, we only just now got a single block skill, and that’s already seeing a 50% increase in CD. More importantly, where’s thief’s competent condition cleansing? If you eat 3 damaging conditions as a thief, your options are to blow SS just to cleanse them, or eat damage from them as you slowly find a way to cleanse them off.

Thieves, to this day, still lack competent condition cleansing. Remember when Warrior was described as the class that “has some problem cleansing conditions”? Now they get a complete immunity skill and braindead condition cleansing options.

What I’ve suggested is a skill based condition cleanse – if you don’t want thieves cleansing more than 1 condition per dodge, then don’t mindlessly spam attacks hoping to see what sticks. It’s probably not “perfectly balanced”, but it’s absolutely nowhere near OP. In its current form, it’s ridiculously UP for a Master trait.

Ghotistyx.6942:

They balance the game based on all game modes. Spvp might be affected the most by changes, but they aren’t going to allow ridiculous things to run rampant. No limit to healing and condition removal on evade fits exactly into that category. Even not in wvw, being able to remove 5 conditions and heal 2500 health isn’t unreasonable, and with dash dodge removing cripple and chill, staff 3 removing immobilize, and an 8-10 second stun break, when would a thief ever die?

3-5 activations per trait per dodge hardcap seems fair to me – it’d still be useful in PvP without being insane in WvW.

Ghotistyx.6942:

They balance the game based on all game modes. Spvp might be affected the most by changes, but they aren’t going to allow ridiculous things to run rampant. No limit to healing and condition removal on evade fits exactly into that category. Even not in wvw, being able to remove 5 conditions and heal 2500 health isn’t unreasonable, and with dash dodge removing cripple and chill, staff 3 removing immobilize, and an 8-10 second stun break, when would a thief ever die?

as soon as we get any sort of Hard CC. or when we get hit at range. or when we get hit up close (which we need to be to do damage)

Kadin.2356:

The condi removal potential on this ability is already very high compared to most other class’ options in that department. The only reason that even this much is justifiable is due to our low HP pool. I’d love for this to do more but I doubt it would pass any kind of balance check.

Thief is among the worst in the game at removing harmful conditions. Not only is Escapist’s Absolution not overpowered, but you have to trait to get what should ultimately be a minor. It’s fine as is — if anything, it isn’t enough. One trait does not suddenly fix a dearth of core durability.

Even were the Condition removal capped at 3 per proc on an evade , the warrior can still clean more conditions in a 20 second period AND has resistance. This will go higher in HOT.

Elementalists also have oodles of condition removal. Necro just throws them all back at you.