Guild Wars 2

As topic says. Inftract me, ban me, w/e. Remove this kittening trait.

Karolis.4261:

As topic says. Inftract me, ban me, w/e. Remove this kittening trait.

Or replace it with something useful, like…

“Lowers (Revealed.) by one second.” :P

or even just “Does absolutely nothing” cos then at least it wouldn’t actively contribute to deaths.

/sign

That kitten is killing me 20 times more often than it saves me.

My health has never dropped below 90%.

They just need to reword the tooltip for the trait to “gain revealed buff at 25%”
working as intended + fixed

Make it an Adept trait at 25% HP like Mesmer in the Dueling line. That’s right, they can choose to kitten their stealth!

As for what replaces it…a big fat slab of nothing would be just fine, but I suppose IoS could thematically fit the slot.

Or, you know, they could fix it so it’s always useful.

Just have it grant a 4s revealed immunity when it triggers. That way if it pops mid-fight and you insta-waste the stealth it doesn’t hurt you, but if it pops while you’re already under revelaed you still get the stealth and you can actually use it for something useful like escaping with your life.

I am sure noone disagrees that the trait needs fixing.

Can we please have it COMPLETELY REMOVED from the game while anet works on that fix?

Just make it do NOTHING at all till you fix it. Just take it out. Remove it. Make it disappear.

And then when and if you manage to make a decent version of it put it back in.

it works fine for me, and really turn into life saver a lot of times.

Brassnautilus.2941:

it works fine for me, and really turn into life saver a lot of times.

IF you dont use X/D stealth based build then yeah .. it works fine for you.

that is one of the best trait in the game.

Taobella.6597:

that is one of the best trait in the game.

…For your enemy.

Daecollo.9578:

Karolis.4261:

As topic says. Inftract me, ban me, w/e. Remove this kittening trait.

Or replace it with something useful, like…

“Lowers (Revealed.) by one second.” :P

Agreed. +1

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

The problem is that thief stealth is the primary defensive mechanic for the class. Even if you’re a p/p unload spamming build (which, by the way, can be countered in 12 different ways by 12 different things that people hardly even have to try to do) you still use stealth as a panic button. When your health drops below 25%, you’ll probably be in a fight, or on top of people, and pressing buttons to get out. If something spikes you below 25%, it is highly likely you’ll be pressing buttons already for whatever you were doing. In either of these situations, last refuge will simply cause you to lose your ability to stealth, as the button pressing that happened before last refuge triggered will have instantly revealed you.

Daecollo.9578:

Karolis.4261:

As topic says. Inftract me, ban me, w/e. Remove this kittening trait.

Or replace it with something useful, like…

“Lowers Revealed by one second.”

+1, /signed, and agreed.

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

If you aren’t really using Stealth, why do you spec into Shadow Arts?

If you want to use a lot of Stealth, you have to spec into Shadow Arts and then the trait gets annoying.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

The problem is that thief stealth is the primary defensive mechanic for the class. Even if you’re a p/p unload spamming build (which, by the way, can be countered in 12 different ways by 12 different things that people hardly even have to try to do) you still use stealth as a panic button. When your health drops below 25%, you’ll probably be in a fight, or on top of people, and pressing buttons to get out. If something spikes you below 25%, it is highly likely you’ll be pressing buttons already for whatever you were doing. In either of these situations, last refuge will simply cause you to lose your ability to stealth, as the button pressing that happened before last refuge triggered will have instantly revealed you.

And 99 % of time when u use x/d that button is CnD.

Would make me sad to lose my last refuge/svanir rune combo, can’t count the amount of times it has saved me

please do, it’s horrible

Doesn’t pose a problem for me I have to say. Pyroatheist has got the jist of it I think.
Maybe not spamming buttons could be an answer.

Elmuerto.9840:

Doesn’t pose a problem for me I have to say. Pyroatheist has got the jist of it I think.
Maybe not spamming buttons could be an answer.

You do not have to spam to get killed due to this hideous trait. If your health is approaching 25%, you are more than likely going to hit C+D if you are in melee range to get away and recover, which is not something you can spam. In fact, if you are in the middle of any attack when this triggers, you have no option but to wait out Revealed to use your stealth escape mechanisms, which can then get you killed. This trait impedes on your survival instinct in the very same tree that encourages you to use stealth skills for condition removals, healing, blinding etc. and hence is a terrible trait that should be either removed immediately or made exempt from the effects of Revealed.

Not spamming buttons is easier said than done when you’re PvPing. A second is all it takes to lose a fight at 25% health.

But then the revealed mechanic is a kittening joke regardless and it’s the most worthless and terrible implementation of anti-stealth mechanic in any MMO… especially considering they advertise with “play the game, not the UI”. Every melee thief is looking at the bottom of his screen nowadays. Even a cooldown on C&D would’ve worked out better.

That trait saved me billion times. It’s completely fine. If you are spammin buttons knowing that you have that trait then it’s your own fault.

And I am X/D thief using CnD.
Another L2P problem for me.

people seem to think you need to be spamming buttons for the trait to begger you, but you don’t even if your fighting slowly pressing buttons one at a time, if it triggers in the middle of an attack your done for regardless wether your “spamming” or just having pressed it once to start that attack.

either way something that can get in the way of your actual skills should not be a forced passive.

I can see what you are saying, I tend to use shadowsteps, RFI and dodge to get out of trouble. So therefore my stealth comes at moments I’m away from anyone I’d attack so this may be proccing and not bothering me in some situations and others saving my skin visibly.

You don’t have to be spamming to have this trait screw you over.

With the low base health of a thief it means it doesn’t take a lot of damage to get you down to 25% health to proc this (Especially if you don’t have Shadow’s Embrace + Hide in Shadows to remove conditions)

If you’re getting low on health and decide to CnD, or are in the middle of and attack (Say, Unload for P/P, Pistol Whip for S/P, Cluster Bomb for SB etc) and you fall below 25% health to have this skill proc then you get insta-revealed which leaves you with 4 seconds where you can’t stealth.

This skill can be helpful if you’re running away/stunned/CC’d etc since there’s no chance of immediately removing the stealth at that point, but with how easy it is to fall below 25% health (Especially if using Stealth as a defensive and offensive mechanism) it doesn’t happen all the time.

Kenmei.7138:

That trait saved me billion times. It’s completely fine. If you are spammin buttons knowing that you have that trait then it’s your own fault.

And I am X/D thief using CnD.
Another L2P problem for me.

So if you get knocked below 25% just before you hit CnD it’s your own fault?

I believe dealing with the kittenty revealed mechanic is bad enough without having to calculate what the 25% health line is and whether the enemy might trigger it while also keeping an eye on endurance, initiative, position, enemy position/cooldowns and other enemies… Just because I like the other traits in SA.

No thanks, please remove this kittenty trait.

stof.9341:

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

If you aren’t really using Stealth, why do you spec into Shadow Arts?

If you want to use a lot of Stealth, you have to spec into Shadow Arts and then the trait gets annoying.

Because:

1)This trait is powerfull if not massively using stealth
2)reducing the cd of deception by 20% is powerfull regardless of using a stealth build or not.

The trait is good but i agree it shouldn’t fork you if you rely massively on stealth, it simply needs to be modified slightly.

Solution is simple really, swap the trait with IoS or one of the other first tier traits, so everyone gets a trait thats worthwhile at 5, and the people that for some reason like this passive trait can choose it for 10

Sounds reasonable ^^

Puru.4217:

stof.9341:

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

If you aren’t really using Stealth, why do you spec into Shadow Arts?

If you want to use a lot of Stealth, you have to spec into Shadow Arts and then the trait gets annoying.

Because:

1)This trait is powerfull if not massively using stealth
2)reducing the cd of deception by 20% is powerfull regardless of using a stealth build or not.

The trait is good but i agree it shouldn’t fork you if you rely massively on stealth, it simply needs to be modified slightly.

Indeed, I only have 10 into SA for the Deception CD. Acro > SA! Also, a thief’s main defense is his evades and mobility. Stealth is just a crutch.

Iove.3902:

Puru.4217:

stof.9341:

Iove.3902:

I quite like the trait. I don’t see a problem with it, and have not experienced a problem with it. If anyone wants to enlighten me, please do so. Though, the reason I might not have problems is because I’m not a stealth spamming Thief — I use Evades.

Regardless, what are the problems you are having with it?

If you aren’t really using Stealth, why do you spec into Shadow Arts?

If you want to use a lot of Stealth, you have to spec into Shadow Arts and then the trait gets annoying.

Because:

1)This trait is powerfull if not massively using stealth
2)reducing the cd of deception by 20% is powerfull regardless of using a stealth build or not.

The trait is good but i agree it shouldn’t fork you if you rely massively on stealth, it simply needs to be modified slightly.

Indeed, I only have 10 into SA for the Deception CD. Acro > SA! Also, a thief’s main defense is his evades and mobility. Stealth is just a crutch.

actually its both, using just one or the other is when it becomes a crutch either way.

Thief has about equal parts both evade and stealth a good thief knows when each ones appropriate for use, it only becomes a crutch if you find one skill that you found works well against new players and utilize just that skill.

Only time you shouldn’t be utilizing both for defense is if you’ve built heavily to improve one aspect over the other, so a shadow arts will focus more on their stealth for defense while an acrobat will focus more on their evades, both are limited enough that unless traited heavily you can’t really get by relying on just one or the other against anything but bads and news.

4 times out of 5, this trait saves me. That 5th time can be a bummer, but I’m usually hosed anyway. Be thiefy, don’t get hit and low health, that way Last Refuge is never a problem.

Look at it this way. You die laughing. Or someone laughs while you die. Almost the same thing.

Maybe we should start using Last Refuge as our rally cry for people who complain about our stealth use. “Oh yeah? Last Refuge, yo!” Like that, only cooler.

PS And stealth is totally a crutch! A crutch you can hit someone over the head with. From behind. With no warning. Preferably. I like crutchy crutches.

I think people have gotten used to stealth ocurring so very frequently both in attack and defense. I wonder does this particular problem affect heavily those who use D/D?

Elmuerto.9840:

I think people have gotten used to stealth ocurring so very frequently both in attack and defense. I wonder does this particular problem affect heavily those who use D/D?

Yes it affect the most those who use meele x/d setups and shadow arts. The biggest problem with last refuge is that you cant monitor its cooldown. Stoping yourself from CnD at emergency becouse last refuge MIGHT be ready to use may lead to another failure.

Elmuerto.9840:

I think people have gotten used to stealth ocurring so very frequently both in attack and defense. I wonder does this particular problem affect heavily those who use D/D?

Basically it would effect anyone who likes to use stealth as a defensive mechanism that would possibly be attacking as their health hits 25%.

Doesn’t have to be someone who’s using stealth constantly but if you wanted to use stealth to escape or have some small breathing room when your health gets low and you where attacking as your health hits 25% (considering base 10k health going from 50% to below 25% is only 2.5k damage not a great deal)

If its even just 1 out of 10 times last refuge has this happen thats still unacceptable for a trait that you are forced to take if you want a specific line of traits, the traits should never become a hindrance at all ever doubly so if they are the static ones.

Elmuerto.9840:

I think people have gotten used to stealth ocurring so very frequently both in attack and defense. I wonder does this particular problem affect heavily those who use D/D?

It does primarily affect D/D and S/D setups that go heavily into Shadow Arts.

Since these setups rely heavily on Stealth as an offensive and defensive mechanism, they use stealth at high health to get off damage/control abilities and manage their initiative and revealed debuff to allow them to CnD defensively at low life.

In between stealths they will often use other attacks during revealed after which they’ll make decision whether to continue to stealth for damage or to put pressure on with other attacks or to CnD as a defensive measure.

If they stealth for damage then there’s the risk of being hit below 25% and procing Last Refuge mid-CnD OR they get off the CnD and are unaffected by Last Refuge Proc (Stacks duration in stealth, revealed if having already come out of stealth)

If they use other attacks (Flanking Strike/Heartseeker/Death Blossom/Dancing Dagger) then they’ll have a good chance of breaking the Last Refuge stealth instantly giving them no way out.

If they CnD defensively then there’s still a chance they proc Last Refuge mid-CnD and get revealed (Thus negating any defensive benefit from going into stealth, using up 6 initiative and also getting 4 seconds of revealed) though there’s a chance that they can get CnD off and have Last Refuge proc giving them extended stealth.

Last Refuge on P/D builds is less dangerous since you’re less likely to be at low health (In my experience P/D is very hard to take down due to spending long periods in stealth as damage will still be done via bleeds) and primarily it’s damage comes from Sneak Attack and auto-attacks during revealed reducing the amount of skills that can be interrupt the stealth caused by Last Refuge down to just the CnD to gain stealth (Though if timed well it will land less than 0.1 of a second after revealed wears off, as there’s no auto-attack chain to interrupt when casting it)

For other builds such as D/P and P/P Last Refuge is unlikely to interfere much due to how they gain stealth.

But for how Last Refuge interacts with D/D and S/D builds (2 of the primary stealth focused weapon sets) it should be at least tweaked if not replaced by a more useful trait (Bearing in mind how powerful some other classes 5 point traits can be and how none of the other 5 point traits can be detrimental to a build (Aside from Reanimator for Necromancers))

Does this screw up if it happens between firing an arrow (as in auto-attack) and it hitting? I’ve noticed lately I sometimes use my heal and find myself already with ‘revealed’ on, and I guess if I’m taking slow damage it must trigger about the same time as I want to use HiS.

It occurred to me that if they just made it a short-duration (like 2s) version of smokescreen, it’d be defensive without getting in the way and it would still be possible to stealth yourself from it if certain skills were available (like HS).

LameFox.6349:

Does this screw up if it happens between firing an arrow (as in auto-attack) and it hitting? I’ve noticed lately I sometimes use my heal and find myself already with ‘revealed’ on, and I guess if I’m taking slow damage it must trigger about the same time as I want to use HiS.

It occurred to me that if they just made it a short-duration (like 2s) version of smokescreen, it’d be defensive without getting in the way and it would still be possible to stealth yourself from it if certain skills were available (like HS).

Yes it does because the attack lands after you have stealthed from it thus triggering revealed

I’m a stealth heavy D/D build. I usually just Roll for Initiative in this situation..

My biggest grudge with last refuge is when I shadowstep in an enemy group and use daggerstorm. When I see I am getting low – shadow return, but I am already in revealed state.

Dasorine.1964:

LameFox.6349:

Does this screw up if it happens between firing an arrow (as in auto-attack) and it hitting? I’ve noticed lately I sometimes use my heal and find myself already with ‘revealed’ on, and I guess if I’m taking slow damage it must trigger about the same time as I want to use HiS.

It occurred to me that if they just made it a short-duration (like 2s) version of smokescreen, it’d be defensive without getting in the way and it would still be possible to stealth yourself from it if certain skills were available (like HS).

Yes it does because the attack lands after you have stealthed from it thus triggering revealed

Okay, but why when I use pistol #5 —> dagger #2 does it not de-stealth until my next attack hits?

LameFox.6349:

Okay, but why when I use pistol #5 —> dagger #2 does it not de-stealth until my next attack hits?

It’s not counted as an attack since the Dagger #2 is causing the combo to make you go stealthed.

As with most (If not all) Leap finishers, it’d be pretty stupid if they broke the stealth that they give when comboing.

Projectiles already on their way to a target aren’t part of the combo and so are counted as an attack from stealth.

LameFox.6349:

Dasorine.1964:

LameFox.6349:

Does this screw up if it happens between firing an arrow (as in auto-attack) and it hitting? I’ve noticed lately I sometimes use my heal and find myself already with ‘revealed’ on, and I guess if I’m taking slow damage it must trigger about the same time as I want to use HiS.

It occurred to me that if they just made it a short-duration (like 2s) version of smokescreen, it’d be defensive without getting in the way and it would still be possible to stealth yourself from it if certain skills were available (like HS).

Yes it does because the attack lands after you have stealthed from it thus triggering revealed

Okay, but why when I use pistol #5 —> dagger #2 does it not de-stealth until my next attack hits?

Because the dagger #2 attack is the thing actually applying the stealth.

In the same way that cloak and dagger deals damage but unless your already stealthed before firing it off it doesn’t reveal you as it puts you into stealth.

Both CnD and heartseeker through smoke field essentially are applying the damage before the stealth if it wasn’t this way around CnD would never stealth (just instant reveal) and the only way the stealth combo attack would work is out of combat in a cheesy exploit like way.

Meanwhile last refuge triggering while your attack is on the way is stealthing before the damage and thus when that damage hits its counted as an attack from stealth, thus breaking stealth and giving you revealed.

Essentially any attack that would normally break stealth if used during stealth will break stealth even if you are stealthed between using the attack and the attack hitting unless that attack is the thing stealthing you (aka CnD, smoke combos)

Which is why things like last refuge can often actually be a massive negative.

Yeah it should probably be excempt from the reveal buff.
Its a shame when the traits forced on you are actually negative, such as the mini pet necros get (which has been fixed at long last).

It is bugged! Remove or make it useful somehow.

Someone spreadsheet this more numbers! I also need more info theory’s blog / reddit posts.

Even if bugged, I was in wvw last night and found it to be still useful. To those saying the bug makes it broken —-> remove (or fix). Allow me to remind you of Anet’s recent genius attempts at balancing the thief: repeated cnd in PvP is too powerful, therefore we’re nerfing all pve sustained damage rotations with a revealed time increase, Halving all thief sword and condition damage, and the quickness reduction (by which pistol whip used to be semi viable), et merda; in light of this history, i’ll restate the old adage: the devil you know is better than the devil don’t.