Guild Wars 2

The most useless skill I’ve ever seen. What purpose does it serve? Is it used for condi builds to spam 3333333333? Not very engaging gameplay there… Sounds like an amazing build. The evade frame is also very unreliable.

I would love to see this skill reworked. How about giving it a smoke field so it can be used to leap through with Heartseeker, but without the blind mechanic. I hate to see the skill not being used optimally. The thief class (particularly Dagger/Dagger Thiefs) is in dire need of something new and diverse.

What’s your thought on this guys?

My thoughts on this haven’t changed since the last 100 iterations of this thread: An emphatic Yes to the more reliable evade frame. And a No to any other change.

Specifically to your proposition I think that having two different stealth access mechanics on a single weapon set might be a wee bit unbalanced.

Yeah, as a long time D/D user in a condi build, I can vouch that the evade frames are indefinitely too short. The evade is very unreliable and can really help you waste initiative. I’ve used it for years and I can’t really tell exactly when the evade frames come in, they are just too short and feel so random when they actually evade skills. 1/4th of a second is too short, I think it needs to at least be 1/3rd of a second to feel at least a little bit reliable, anything more than that is really debatable material. The animation is over one second long, so 1/3rd still allows for counter play and at least is a step in a direction of making it feel like you can preemptively evade attacks with it rather than just using it and hoping for the best.

Also I’d like to point out that it is not “just 33333333” spam in a condi build. You want 1-2 death blossoms on an immobilized target, not more unless they are REALLY stuck there. Heartseeker and CnD are still useful, even with carrion stats.

Spamming only 3 with condi is about as effective as spamming only 2 as burst. Just sayn’.

Ezra.5049:

The most useless skill I’ve ever seen. What purpose does it serve? Is it used for condi builds to spam 3333333333? Not very engaging gameplay there… Sounds like an amazing build. The evade frame is also very unreliable.

I would love to see this skill reworked. How about giving it a smoke field so it can be used to leap through with Heartseeker, but without the blind mechanic. I hate to see the skill not being used optimally. The thief class (particularly Dagger/Dagger Thiefs) is in dire need of something new and diverse.

What’s your thought on this guys?

What is this ? Really smart idea make next smoke field on weapon set which it already has invis ability No really DB is really god spell and i use him on condi and power build and will not need to rework.

To Jesiah 0,2457. increase evade window is really bad idea
this would lead to spam 3 3 3 3 3 and consequent nerf in next patch =)

Gudy.3607:

My thoughts on this haven’t changed since the last 100 iterations of this thread: An emphatic Yes to the more reliable evade frame. And a No to any other change.

Specifically to your proposition I think that having two different stealth access mechanics on a single weapon set might be a wee bit unbalanced.

I guess you’re right about having two different stealth access mechanics in one weapon set is abit OP.
But I like the idea that you can chose different ways to go into stealth in different situations, but with a very high initiative cost so it’s not spammable. In my opinion having different ways to get into stealth provides depth and rewarding gameplay for the Thief. Because the gameplay now is very spammy, e.g Cloak and Dagger spam, Black Powder into Heartseeker spam, #3 Evade spam on S/D etc.

Ezra.5049:

Gudy.3607:

My thoughts on this haven’t changed since the last 100 iterations of this thread: An emphatic Yes to the more reliable evade frame. And a No to any other change.

Specifically to your proposition I think that having two different stealth access mechanics on a single weapon set might be a wee bit unbalanced.

I guess you’re right about having two different stealth access mechanics in one weapon set is abit OP.
But I like the idea that you can chose different ways to go into stealth in different situations, but with a very high initiative cost so it’s not spammable. In my opinion having different ways to get into stealth provides depth and rewarding gameplay for the Thief. Because the gameplay now is very spammy, e.g Cloak and Dagger spam, Black Powder into Heartseeker spam, #3 Evade spam on S/D etc.

We forget that D/D is not power weapon set, right now is 70% condi and 30% power and you say “Increase ini cost on DB” ? If you do not like it go play other weapon set.
D/D is now best hybrit weapon spec and dont need reworks.

Make DB, in addition to stacking bleed, also put on 3 stacks of Vuln and a couple seconds of cripple and it will be good IMO.

Tweak the bleed duration if further balance is needed, the long duration bleeds are kind of useless with cleanses being so common

roamzero.9486:

Make DB, in addition, in addition to stacking bleed, also put on 3 stacks of Vuln and a couple seconds of cripple and it will be good IMO.

Tweak the bleed duration if further balance is needed, the long duration bleeds are kind of useless with cleanses being so common

NPC cleanses condition right ?

There is no need to change death blossom’s idea, it fits either side just not very well with its current values.

For power, the evade frame is too short, and doesn’t even go far now that movement based skills were normalized to not be affected by movement bonuses/conditions (good and bad).

For condition, again the skill doesn’t go very far to reach your target unless they are stunned or immobilized so landing those bleeds is already a challenge against a moderately competent player.

Turn this skill into a skill shot like warrior’s GS #3 and increase the distance slightly. Lastly increase the evade frame to 1/2 second. That way it becomes an evasive and positional skill for power or condi, and a more reliable bleed applicator for condi.

No need to add more conditions to it or turn it to some blind field, we have d/p for that.

Gudy.3607:

My thoughts on this haven’t changed since the last 100 iterations of this thread: An emphatic Yes to the more reliable evade frame. And a No to any other change.

Specifically to your proposition I think that having two different stealth access mechanics on a single weapon set might be a wee bit unbalanced.

Yea i would LOVE a more reliable evade frame which doesnt root us for 1/4 second when we land so that its much smoother.

I thought the patch was supposed to increase the evade frame for the whole duration of the animation? Did that not get implemented? If not, then yes, it needs a longer evade frame.

Whatever they theoretically purposed d/d for, it is far more useful and reliable as a powerset than a condi or hybrd set, at least in sPvP.

I’d also like to see them do something more creative with dagger #4.

With dagger training it loads both poison and bleeds. Really I could not care less that this means spams of DB for those that use it. Even in a Condi build this will not get them far. Its best use is 2 or three times at most than get out of there. generally you can only get that many in before the enemy responds with blocks or dodges.

Long bleed durations are not useless as evidenced by the fact you can load more bleed stacks with DB then with P/d using sneak attack.

Long bleed durations are not useless as evidenced by the fact people take Krait runes for condition builds just to get longer bleed durations. These long bleed durations also open up other Condition type runes for the DB user where they can focus on Poison durations rather then bleeds and still get a good number of bleed stacks.

DB is also an AOE and really the best one we got attacking 3 separate targets 3 times each.

It is a whirl finisher as well. try SB Choking gas on a target then DB over him. With dagger training and decent durations on poison those poisons will tick higher than the bleeds.

Added to this, if traited Dagger training DB will add weakness to the enemy. In other words you can add plenty of conditions already and still have access to a cripple in the set. Yes the enemy is not just going to stand there and take the attacks but this is true of virtually any attack.

Do you want a different source of stealth? Try trapper runes and load Needle trap. This will lock the enemy in with an Immob for DBS and stealth you for free. Trait Panic strike as another form of Immob so you can get more DBS landed.

DB also works great with SOM as a heal and especially in larger battles, With a venom loaded , traited for leeching and using assassins reward you can generate a whole lot of health when you use DB.

As DB is a 3 times attack one can also use a sigil that procs on attack and or crit wherein one can all but ensure a proc even with a low crit rate on that DB. Sigil of torment is all but assured of going off if you DB over two people with a 25 percent crit rate.

If a person is going to look at a skill like DB and look just at the skill in its raw form, then of course it will look weak just as steal might look weak at first glance. The power of a DB just as with steal is how you leverage the skill with traits and utilities to maximize what it gives you. When you maximize what you can do with the skill the realtive INi costs drop.

Add 1/4 second to the evade frame and that all that is needed. A DB user can then trait Acro and rely on DB for Vigor regen and do better on upper hand for that Ini.

The fact that they haven’t changed it yet obviously means that Anet wants us to run some kittened up hybrid build that doesn’t work. I’ve tried running hybrid D/D many times before and it just doesn’t work. Not enough dps at all. They need to increase evade frame and make this skill power. D/D shouldn’t be a hybrid set, we have p/d for that. I do like NinjaEd’s idea too, making it like whirlwind would increase mobility and give us a little more to D/D, and making it a bit more viable.

alchemyst.2165:

The fact that they haven’t changed it yet obviously means that Anet wants us to run some kittened up hybrid build that doesn’t work. I’ve tried running hybrid D/D many times before and it just doesn’t work. Not enough dps at all. They need to increase evade frame and make this skill power. D/D shouldn’t be a hybrid set, we have p/d for that. I do like NinjaEd’s idea too, making it like whirlwind would increase mobility and give us a little more to D/D, and making it a bit more viable.

PEBKAC. Hybrid D/D Thief is maybe best DPS “build” in this time.

Ok, to throw in my opinion as a D/D thief: I like Death Blossom as it is, but I do agree that D/D is the weakest set thief has got- so if I had a say in changing the D/D skills, I’d vote for Dancing Dagger getting an interrupt.
And/or buff DB’s existing features.
And of course, give me the old SE back and/or significantly buff trickster and/or give us new tricks which wouldn’t catapult us out of SR which is the main source of condi removal – and I’d have to use both at the same time to not die from condis nowadays.

Evilek.5690:

alchemyst.2165:

The fact that they haven’t changed it yet obviously means that Anet wants us to run some kittened up hybrid build that doesn’t work. I’ve tried running hybrid D/D many times before and it just doesn’t work. Not enough dps at all. They need to increase evade frame and make this skill power. D/D shouldn’t be a hybrid set, we have p/d for that. I do like NinjaEd’s idea too, making it like whirlwind would increase mobility and give us a little more to D/D, and making it a bit more viable.

PEBKAC. Hybrid D/D Thief is maybe best DPS “build” in this time.

Um…no. I hope you’re being sarcastic because Hybrid D/D Thief does not have much dps, at least in WvW and PvP. Really it’s just limited sustained damage with not much survivability, and especially at a higher level of play it simply cannot compete with a full power or condi build. This is why bleed should be taken out of D/D. Poison is an inhibiting condition, and it applies weakness if traited into DA, which makes poison a condition that works with power d/d, but not for the actual damage bonus. It’s added offense/defense. Bleed does not belong in there.

Besides, if it IS the best, why does nobody run it?

I still don’t understand why people want to change this skill. It has very above average tuning as a bleed stacker (and is borderline OP combined with Caltrops, especially in PvE) and gives D/D some needed AoE and badly needed versatility. There are exactly two problems that really should be addressed:

1.) Poison remains under-tuned as a damaging condition. This interferes with D/D a bit in a condi or hybrid setup. They either need to buff poison period or buff Potent Poison.

2.) the evade portion of DB sucks and needs to be tweaked.

That’s it. Fix those two things, leave everything else alone.

NinjaEd.3946:

There is no need to change death blossom’s idea, it fits either side just not very well with its current values.

For power, the evade frame is too short, and doesn’t even go far now that movement based skills were normalized to not be affected by movement bonuses/conditions (good and bad).

For condition, again the skill doesn’t go very far to reach your target unless they are stunned or immobilized so landing those bleeds is already a challenge against a moderately competent player.

Turn this skill into a skill shot like warrior’s GS #3 and increase the distance slightly. Lastly increase the evade frame to 1/2 second. That way it becomes an evasive and positional skill for power or condi, and a more reliable bleed applicator for condi.

No need to add more conditions to it or turn it to some blind field, we have d/p for that.

Yep. This should be done. 1/2 second evade at the beginning, total cast of 3/4 second. Have it slide you 300 range in a selected direction like whirlwind attack. Leave condi and power damage the same on it.

Edit: they finally made last refuge an optional trait, maybe they’ll eventually fix this.

Going to be honest, every time I hit this skill while running d/d I curse myself for having accidentally wasted 4 initiative on nothing.

Make it a 2-part skill like FS/LS. I know I’m gonna take some flak here, but let me explain:

On power, this skill is border-line useless except as last-ditch evade efforts in situations you would otherwise die in.

This means just buffing it is kind of out of the question as it’d likely end up breaking something.

On conditions, spamming 3 and getting an evade out of it is not really engaging. The multi-hit aspect of it also synergizes with DT to the point where it’s not only effective but almost always optimal to spam 3.

As a two part skill, it can be broken down into a skill-shot evade gap closer (like warrior GS 3) and transform into a multi-hit attack at melee range after a successful hi with part 1. Except provide the dash/evade with just two low-coefficient strikes and no bleeds (it is D/D after all), and the follow-up attack a very fast and repeated sequence of say, five attacks at a total medium/medium-high power coefficients but each applying bleeding, and at the beginning of the animation, a stack of poison(? balance-testing needed).

This gives the set some engage/escape potential to D/D and a little bit of damage while keeping the condi build mobile and evasive but not just safe/spammy from free evades, a bit more variety in innate poison/stacked bleeding application (not solely from P/D), and a bit more of a bonus to damage potential on the D/D build path for condi users as well as power builds.

It’d also give a few more evasive options to D/D rather than being forced into Sword, but sword of course then ends up a better in-combat evade and keeps you within the fight while providing a bit better escape/engage mobility from IS/IR, condition and condition cleansing with the utility of either offhand dagger’s evasion and boon ripping/blinds/dazes/control effects or offhand pistol’s strong defensive utility.