Guild Wars 2

Can someone please explain this logic to me? If I’m not mistaken, P/P thieves have always been regarded as less-than-stellar when compared to other thief builds. So instead of helping this weapon load-out, they turn around and eliminate arguably the most important trait for it (even after they improved the tracking and increased its range)? I’m absolutely stunned at this decision, and I have no idea what to make for it.

I’ve mained P/P thief since the beginning, and I’m pretty satisfied with the build I’ve put together; it synthesizes really well with Signet of Malice and Invigorating Precision. The elimination of Ricochet just seems completely uncalled for. No, I suppose it’s not going to completely break my build, but it sure is going to affect mob DPS and self-healing seeing as how it’s going to be solely a single-target weapon now (with exception to sigil of fire procs). Actually, I change my mind, maybe it will completely break my build. The self-healing is going to be a BIG issue given that you’re already handicapping your mobility and stealth options just by picking up P/P, so having Ricochet work with SoM and IP just made for great self-sustained survivability (I play PvE, so I’m not sure how it would stand in PvP, not that it matters anymore). Without Ricochet, P/P thieves feel like they’re getting an unwarranted nerf big time.

Please, Anet. Please reconsider this decision, as P/P has needed proper support since the very beginning, and this is incredibly harmful to these builds. Don’t do this to my favorite thief build. ;_;

My only theory in regards to this (as far-out as it may seem) is that perhaps the thief elite specialization is some kind of a gunslinger variation where Ricochet as well as a plethora of firearms-enhancing traits will be.

The only thing we can hope for is if they somehow make it baseline and just didn’t put that in the notes. Otherwise it pretty much removes p/p as anything other than trash.

I just noticed this as well………. WTF

I’ll agree with that guy in that other thread about putting ricochet back into the trickery line as long as it means putting it back in the game.

Heyzeus Kreesto…

I’m still hoping that they made it baseline and it’s just not written there. IT looks like it got replaced with the no quarter trait, although it doesn’t make sense why they would just flat out remove it for that unless they made it baseline.

Unless of course they considered it to be just too OP, but… well, who knows what brand of Kool-Aid they’re actually sipping over there?

Ralanost.8913:

The only thing we can hope for is if they somehow make it baseline and just didn’t put that in the notes. Otherwise it pretty much removes p/p as anything other than trash.

Since only one skill primarily benefits from Ricochet (Unload), to me it would make sense just to buff Unload to make it bounce.

roamzero.9486:

Ralanost.8913:

The only thing we can hope for is if they somehow make it baseline and just didn’t put that in the notes. Otherwise it pretty much removes p/p as anything other than trash.

Since only one skill primarily benefits from Ricochet (Unload), to me it would make sense just to buff Unload to make it bounce.

A lot of p/d specs also used it though. It also works off the body shot skill to provide some pseudo-AoE immobilize, and it also helps you work around ranger pets and mesmer clones in general.

However, you do highlight another possibility. That would leave condi specs quite in the dust though.

I would be happy if Ricochet integrated into Unload skill.

It maybe part of the new thief specialization line, if it is sniper for example, then it would seem logical that they put all GUN stuff together.

Frankly, about the only way I play a thief is as pure Glass Hand Cannon. I gotta be pumping more bullets than a classic John Woo movie… and my only defense is keep shooting. Low on health? Signet of Malice and Blackberry Pie says the answer is MOAR BULLETS. Life and Death becomes a game of do they all die before I’m out of initiative?

Is all of this the most effective build ever? Nope.
Is it a complete blast to play? Yep.
Will loosing Richochet break it? Yep. Without it, a group of enemies (read: most of PvE) will get into melee range, and then it’s all about strafing, etc…. overall a different playstyle. Might as well play LB Ranger. At least there I get a cat.

Oh, my swap to is D/P for structures and movement. And I would miss the hilarious quirks of Richochet bouncing my Shadow Shot bouncing me over to a nearby rabbit.

Please don’t kill my fun. :-(

Vavume.8065:

It maybe part of the new thief specialization line, if it is sniper for example, then it would seem logical that they put all GUN stuff together.

As an ascended P/P main character built around ricochet, pistol mastery, ankle shots, and executioner, I don’t feel too good about having most of it taken away for me, and then being forced to pay for it again.

Also, I plan to stay vanilla. A rifle or sniper spec doesn’t appeal to me at all.

MrDaaark.2604:

Vavume.8065:

It maybe part of the new thief specialization line, if it is sniper for example, then it would seem logical that they put all GUN stuff together.

As an ascended P/P main character built around ricochet, pistol mastery, ankle shots, and executioner, I don’t feel too good about having most of it taken away for me, and then being forced to pay for it again.

Also, I plan to stay vanilla. A rifle or sniper spec doesn’t appeal to me at all.

At this point, I’ll take what I can get. Ideally, it would be amazing if Ricochet (including the range buff) became baseline, but if it was moved to some kind of gunslinger variation, then perhaps there’d be other useful traits that would strengthen P/P even more, which would actually be very welcome.

I just don’t see any other reason as to why Ricochet would be removed like this. It has to be somewhere. I mean, it’s not like P/P was a broken build by any means, so why remove the cornerstone that made it not only viable, but incredibly fun?

Ugh. Do not like. Really hoping it’s a baseline change to pistol. This is the only thing that makes pistol viable indeed.

#RIPochet

It’s already been brought up, but should ricochet not actually be dead, it could be rolled into Unload (despite other skills making use of it. I certainly remember interrupting a heal with the 4th hit quite fondly), or it could return in the elite specialization. The lack of notes would indicate the idea is not quite finished, since the traits from this stream aren’t 100% finalized.

Well, my build isn’t completely destroyed, but it will certainly be quite different.

I actually really enjoy Ricochet. Don’t care if it’s viable, it’s just a super fun trait.

yeah i just noticed this and frantically scoured through the patch notes :O
it better be baseline! >:-(

P/P Thief is not a worthwhile option without Ricochet. They should have just included in the livestream notes “we are retiring P/P as an option.”

Since only one skill primarily benefits from Ricochet (Unload), to me it would make sense just to buff Unload to make it bounce.

It’s only really worth investing in if you want that Unload synergy, but if you do that, it also gives important benefits to other abilities, like being able to stun several enemies with one shot. Simply giving the bonus to Unload would not make up the loss.

It maybe part of the new thief specialization line, if it is sniper for example, then it would seem logical that they put all GUN stuff together.

Except that most advanced specs are weapon focused, and if Sniper is a ranged set, rifle focused, then you would likely want to compliment that with a more close range support weapon rather than a second ranged option. The only way that would work is if they significantly upgraded P/P as a close range AoE option, like doubling the number of bounces or something.

I also vote for merging it as baseline for unload. I think it would be a little too OP on pistol autoattack. (Expecially if the bleed also bounced as effect). But I guess it’s true that double pistol is a bit undertraited right now. I think most people don’t play P/P anyway, but maybe some weaker traits could be changed into pistol traits, to have some pistol buff option?

I personally don’t miss it very much, but I can imagine people in PvE missing some of those traits. In sPvP or WvW you don’t see P/P very often, I guess.

If Ricochet becomes gated by the xpac, I’m not buying.
I’m withholding any planned cash transactions with ANet until this is clearly resolved.

Lol, just to think: after getting mighty disillusioned with World of Warcraft and Blizzard, I started playing GW2 (bought long ago, did have time to really start), loved the idea of dual-wielding gunslinger and ended up with just such a thief being my very first level-capped toon. I thought that perhaps I should buy some stuff to express my appreciation for the game and its developers, like an outfit or something. Good job I haven’t yet.
And now this. I smell a potent stench of Blizzard-type policies here

In the last version of the changes, Ricochet was moved up to a Grandmaster trait and now it is gone.

P/P has been fun, but could have used a bit of a buff. I guess I better enjoy it over the next few days as it will be gone.

TheLordQ.1857:

Ugh. Do not like. Really hoping it’s a baseline change to pistol. This is the only thing that makes pistol viable indeed.

100% agree. Simply making Ricochet baseline would be the best thing for this trait, and for P/P thieves in general.

I notice some players are suggesting applying Ricochet only to Unload. While I agree that Unload is the skill that benefits the most out of that trait, the other skills made fun use out of it too.

Yamsandjams.3267:

It also works off the body shot skill to provide some pseudo-AoE immobilize…

That’s a good example. Also, it’s so satisfying interrupting an entire group of mordrem menders with a well-timed bouncing headshot.

So I would much rather have Ricochet be baseline than to have it only apply to Unload. In any case, it’s much too useful of a trait to remove altogether, and I hope Anet addresses this quickly if it is indeed gone. P/P thieves depend on it!

Believe it or not, the P/P thief is my favorite character to play. If they don’t have ricochet available any more, it will completely break my build. Please A-Net, keep this trait available.

I’ll point out that against a group of 3 foes, which is extremely common in PvE, not having ricochet is a 75% damage nerf, which is completely build breaking.

Being forced to take an Elite Specialization, which features it’s own weapon, to make a base weaponset effective again is…. pretty lame.

Yea, sad to see this go. I’m not a huge p/p fan, but ricochet was great for fights like the legendary imbued shaman, particularly with grubs. =(

This makes me sad. My alt for world events uses P/P-SB and venoms. (Yes, I know, it’s very un-meta.) I never had the trait points to spare for Ricochet before, and was really looking forward to getting it now that venom traits have been condensed into a single line.

Tantalizingly out of reach for years, and now allegedly vanished to the mists.

Man, kitten life. What is this? No love for the pistol at all.

Make ricochet baseline and all will be forgiven.

Situation normal.

ArenaNet should do more things like this, not add or buff.

Assuming we do end up getting Rifle as our elite and assuming it comes with a trait-line that features traits for both rifle AND pistol, not only would it feel weird to have old pistol traits recycled into our new elite spec (something they haven’t done for other elite specs revealed) but it would also suck to be forced into using it to just so that one of our baseline weapon sets is “viable”. Given they said we can only ever use 1 elite spec at a time this would also lock pistol thieves out of future elite spec lines.

As for making ricochet baseline, I believe they addressed that in their first trait reveal when it was a trait in the grandmaster critical strikes line saying something like “I feel like this one should still be a choice, because you don’t always want your pistol strikes to bounce.”

WTF !!!
The only joy I had with my thief was bounce/porting between foes with shadow-shot traited with ricochet !!!

That’s just plain stupid ! It’s not like pistol builds broke the game.
(also it’s obvious with my post I’m against it being just tied up to unload. BUT if it’s baseline to ALL number 3 attack involving pistols I’m in. So I can still shadow shot bounce between ennemies. But then again, some won’t like bouncing randomly when weilding d/p so, no I’m against that idea of tying ricochet to one skill)

rodadams.5963:

I’ll point out that against a group of 3 foes, which is extremely common in PvE, not having ricochet is a 75% damage nerf, which is completely build breaking.

Good point. Given that P/P was hardly a meta build by any means, this almost seems like an oversight. It’s like I’m weirdly expecting a dev to say “oops! my bad, forgot to put Ricochet back in the game. Here ya go, sorry about the confusion.”

C’mon. Please baseline that trait, Anet.

Tabootrinket.2631:

The only joy I had with my thief was bounce/porting between foes with shadow-shot traited with ricochet !!!

Really? That was your only joy? lol…

I mean, it sucks losing the skill, but don’t you think you’re being a bit of a drama queen on this?

Dahkeus.8243:

I mean, it sucks losing the skill, but don’t you think you’re being a bit of a drama queen on this?

Given that Ricochet was the cornerstone to making a viable P/P build… no, I don’t think we are overreacting. There was no reason for P/P thieves to take such a hard hit with this change, and I hope Anet takes notice of this and gives us back Ricochet in some way (as it has been suggested, either baseline or part of an elite spec… preferably baseline though).

I think it’s best to wait what the Elite Specialization for thief will be. I believe there is a huge chance that we might see its graceful return in the Elite.

Waiting for the Elite Spec means

1) Spending $50
2) Waiting who knows how long

to get back functionality I have right now. Still not a fan.

Fold it into Pistol Mastery, mayhap? Although, honestly, a complete P/P rework wouldn’t be a thing I’d complain about.

A lot of you seem unaware that since the ricochet update p/p became a lot less viable. There are many reasons for this:

1. Ricochet used to attack more slowly. This lead to us being able tokeep shooting and them not being able to dodge as much.
2. P/P was never the best at AoE damage, but it was always the best at 1v1 burst damage (way more than backstab, test it out yourself). Adding AoE at the cost of 1v1 damage is not a good idea.
3. P/P relied on S/D because the 3 skill was used in 2 turns so you did not have to cough up 5 initiative immediately, as S/D was nerfed to the ground P/P died
S/D nerfs:
1. 2 is no longer a teleport
2. 3 no longer steals 2 boons
3. 3 cannot be set up anymore to attack withput hitting anything removing a finishing burst.
4. you can no longer set up on blocks

People here seem to think Ricochet was major to P/P but it never was. The nerfs listed above killed p/p

I think the current changes will be a major buff to p/p d/d so I look forward to seeing how it works out.

@Niels

The points that you made, while valid, seem like they are geared toward PvP. I primarily play PvE, so I find Ricochet to be an invaluable trait, as you are frequently faced with mobs, especially in dungeons.

I just think Ricochet should be available to players based on their build of preference. It seems like such a huge trait to suddenly leave out.

Would really like to see an answer on this one. Really hoping it’s baseline.

For me, Riccochet is a must have. The damage output against multiple targets is essential.

Puck.9612:

Would really like to see an answer on this one. Really hoping it’s baseline.

That would make me very happy. But I’m guessing it’s going to be placed in the new elite spec. I think I’d be okay with this if that spec also replaces Steal with something else (anything else – but a signet would make me all kinds of happy).

Dear Anet,

I main a pistol/dagger condi thief for WvW small group roaming and the pistol bounces on my auto attack and stealth attack plus increased range are a huge benefit for keeping up aoe bleed pressure in a small skirmish, kiting a foe or foes, soloing camps, annoying a zerg while I defend a tower, and most importantly (in WvW or PvE) ensuring I’ve tagged enough targets to increase my chance to rally when downed. Taking away Ricochet isn’t just a reduction in damage for both p/p and p/d builds….it’s a COMPLETE play style change and a huge reduction on the fun factor, as others have already stated.

Here’s why I think it should be baseline.
Point 1: mesmer and engi pistols bounce by default, why shouldn’t ours?
Point 2: mesmer pistol range (including clones) is getting increased to 1200. (What? Why? this makes NO sense to me!)
Point 3: strafing fire with a pistol makes sense, due to their light weight and high maneuverability. even more so with p/p

Conclusion: Ricochet (both the bounces and the increased range) should be baseline to remain consistent and balanced with the other pistol use classes, but more importantly with the upcoming increased ranges of many other weapons (ranger, warrior lb, mesmer pistol, etc).

Hell, I’d even be fine if they only baseline the bounce for auto attack and Unload and extend the range for all pistol skills. If not baseline, then at least having it be a viable choice somewhere in the specializations. But I prefer baseline.

Please don’t leave us hanging on this Anet. Thanks!

I was really looking forward to the dual pistol traits.

Jedd.9035:

Puck.9612:

Would really like to see an answer on this one. Really hoping it’s baseline.

That would make me very happy. But I’m guessing it’s going to be placed in the new elite spec. I think I’d be okay with this if that spec also replaces Steal with something else (anything else – but a signet would make me all kinds of happy).

The new elite spec should be new stuff. They shouldn’t take traits we already have and tell you that you need to give them 50 bucks to get that trait back.

Puck.9612:

Jedd.9035:

Puck.9612:

Would really like to see an answer on this one. Really hoping it’s baseline.

That would make me very happy. But I’m guessing it’s going to be placed in the new elite spec. I think I’d be okay with this if that spec also replaces Steal with something else (anything else – but a signet would make me all kinds of happy).

The new elite spec should be new stuff. They shouldn’t take traits we already have and tell you that you need to give them 50 bucks to get that trait back.

Well that’s why so many of us hope that it’s going to be baseline. But I’m probably going to be getting HoT anyways, so I’ll take what I can get. That trait is just too important—especially for P/P builds—to just up and cut like that. There’s no logic to it whatsoever.

We need to know what’s going on with our Ricochet already!

Seabreeze.8437:

Puck.9612:

Jedd.9035:

Puck.9612:

Would really like to see an answer on this one. Really hoping it’s baseline.

That would make me very happy. But I’m guessing it’s going to be placed in the new elite spec. I think I’d be okay with this if that spec also replaces Steal with something else (anything else – but a signet would make me all kinds of happy).

The new elite spec should be new stuff. They shouldn’t take traits we already have and tell you that you need to give them 50 bucks to get that trait back.

Well that’s why so many of us hope that it’s going to be baseline. But I’m probably going to be getting HoT anyways, so I’ll take what I can get. That trait is just too important—especially for P/P builds—to just up and cut like that. There’s no logic to it whatsoever.

We need to know what’s going on with our Ricochet already!

Yeah I’m squeezing as much playtime as I can out of my P/P build in the next few days. If they did decide to move it to the new specialization trait line then who knows how many months it will be until I get to play it again.

I use p/p as well in one build it just fun BUT I have at times been switching Ricochet off and goind 4/6/0/6/0. I find this way superior for single target damage.

I have been theorizing a number of alternatives in the new syste for P/p. Of all the weapon sets (outside SB which is not really changing a lot) this is the hardest one to come up with a new build for. It will probably have to transtion to a hybrid or condition damage type set relying in headshot more then Unload and going the pressure strike route in a x/6/x/x/6 type build.

It really hard to decide on the third trait line.

Now THAT said if we had Ricochet back and were using pressure striking , that would really be a dangerous p/p build.

The silence from Anet on this speaks for itself. They have been correcting other omissions, but nothing for thief pistols.

We have 3 pistols traits now and only 1 starting Tuesday. We’ve lost range, bounce, and the 10% damage we had on everything is now only on crippled enemies through Ankle shots. I just don’t understand the nerf to our weakest weapon set.

Ricochet is the big issue though. I can’t imagine going back to pistols without it.

Ricochet is something that we should be able to turn on and off, whether by selecting/deselecting a trait or some other mechanic. I wouldn’t want an “always on” version of it, especially in PvE. In PvE, ricochet draws aggro too easily.

Ekhetrima.9651:

The silence from Anet on this speaks for itself. They have been correcting other omissions, but nothing for thief pistols.

We have 3 pistols traits now and only 1 starting Tuesday. We’ve lost range, bounce, and the 10% damage we had on everything is now only on crippled enemies through Ankle shots. I just don’t understand the nerf to our weakest weapon set.

Ricochet is the big issue though. I can’t imagine going back to pistols without it.

DUDE!!! I was so worked up over the Ricochet business that I didn’t even notice that our 10% damage bonus trait was gone too! What the actual F***!!? Why are they doing this to the weapon set that needed the most improvements!? Instead they’re making it almost completely worthless! This is depressing.

Okay what is going on here? Seriously.

I mean… unless this theory about some kind of gunslinger elite spec turns out to be true. Man… I sure hope so. We need our dual pistol support badly.

Please don’t destroy our pistol thieves Anet. ;_;

Seabreeze.8437:

Ekhetrima.9651:

The silence from Anet on this speaks for itself. They have been correcting other omissions, but nothing for thief pistols.

We have 3 pistols traits now and only 1 starting Tuesday. We’ve lost range, bounce, and the 10% damage we had on everything is now only on crippled enemies through Ankle shots. I just don’t understand the nerf to our weakest weapon set.

Ricochet is the big issue though. I can’t imagine going back to pistols without it.

DUDE!!! I was so worked up over the Ricochet business that I didn’t even notice that our 10% damage bonus trait was gone too! What the actual F***!!? Why are they doing this to the weapon set that needed the most improvements!? Instead they’re making it almost completely worthless! This is depressing.

Okay what is going on here? Seriously.

I mean… unless this theory about some kind of gunslinger elite spec turns out to be true. Man… I sure hope so. We need our dual pistol support badly.

Please don’t destroy our pistol thieves Anet. ;_;

If you haven’t figured it out by now, ArenaNet is not interested with our feedback. All these things they have posted have been decided long time ago and more often are set in stone.

We asked for a simple balance change, what they do is mess everything up.

There is no telling that these changes will be balance after the release since they never give themselves enough time for testing — assuming they still do testing given the quality of changes they have done in the past 3 years — and these changes suppose to go live next week?

As long there’s no Dev represents the Thieves, I will remain skeptic on whether they really have the Thieve’s best interest in mind. So far, all they’ve done is nerf the profession with no meaningful buffs.

Just look at Steal for example. On paper it is getting its range increased from 900 to 1200. Then you read it and say, “wow, what a nice buff” — however in practice, based on Long Reach experience, there are many things in game that will make this fail — a pebble for example. So in paper it looks like we’re getting a buff, but in the in-game reality you can’t steal farther than 600 range else you risk it to fail. So even if we can Steal up to 1200 range, the effectiveness of Steal diminishes after 600 — the shadowstep pathing is buggy, lazily implemented, and broken.

All I’m saying is, if they take Ricochet out….it’s gone.

The changes to Consume Conditions and Ricochet have pretty much left my jaw on the floor. Anet is so out of touch with their game it’s maddening.

I pretty much main a gunslinger build. I crafted 2 different sets of Ascended pistols, 1 for looks, 1 for stats and also spent several months saving up gold to purchase the Aetherized pistols back when they were somewhat affordable. Needless to say, I have lots of time and money invested into the character. Not to mention, a small person guild that is themed entirely around gunslingers and an old western theme.

Now after reading these changes and wondering what the heck just happened to nearly all of the traits that made Pistol even remotely viable, (A trait, that only a few weeks ago, was apparently deemed good enough for a Grandmaster slot!) I can’t even bring myself to log in to my Thief.

Out of all the 80’s I’ve leveled up in the 3 years, Richochet was one of the best AoE tags I had at my disposal, probably 2nd to Guardian Staff #1. It worked amazing in all PvE events such as Plinx, Melandru, escort events in any map, and finally the Silverwastes…

Even if it’s been added to the Elite Spec, I’m not sure how I really feel about being forced into 2 range weapon sets at the same time. But if that’s the case, I guess we have to accept it…Really hoping they just add Ricochet to the base functionality and give pistols a nice 10% damage bonus on top of that since we’re apparently missing that trait as well.

It would be nice to get a Dev response on this. The silence leads me to believe it’s been completely thrown out the window or is being saved for the Elite reveal.