Guild Wars 2

Recently I’ve noticed a disturbing trend.

People are not gonna be satisfied with just larcenous strike nerf. They want infiltrator strike nerf (good call, I would say that this skill is the bread and butter of S/D kit). And general evade nerf (an S/D thief can be built to evade many times in a row).

It’s getting to me because I don’t think they realize that it’s actually hard to play in sPvP and a regen bunker warrior is a lot easier to play in sPvP.

There is this misconception that you can’t hit the “perma-evade” thief…yet I can consistently hit them with GS auto attack (!) on my warrior. The rate that the thief loses health to my auto attack is practically the same as me losing HP. But considering that he is using all his evades/skills/initiatives and I’m just using auto attack chain and dealing the SAME damage…how does that make the S/D thief OP in any way?

Another funny story…one time I was 1v1ing this S/D thief who was just dancing cirlces around me, and then he withdrew to his doom , when he fell down one of those cracks on sky hammer. That was funny as hell! Withdraw is an okay heal, but can’t really touch healing signet in any way. It’s good if you want to get out since it propels you backwards, but what if you don’t want to? Well tough luck, it comes with withdraw.

The ONLY nerf to S/D kit I can advise is nerf to energy sigil, in the same way that paralization sigil is being nerfed to nerf warrior. A hit to energy sigil will hit S/D thief hardest. This will cut down on the evade spam “issue” which is really not that much of an issue since they can still be hit while they’re chaining evades.

Sooooo much agree. And after we finish spamming #3, our sword attacks are that slow we can be easily destroyed. Dodging is our only survivability.

Looks like what ever thief does its going to get hit on, stealth build hate, dodging build hate, to much boon ripping hate. Hate. Thief’s need something new. Can’t wait for new weapon sets.

The problem with S/D

The main problem with S/D is the whole weapon set. I preferred using this set over other sets for these very reasons:

1. It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high.
2. Shadow steps allows a lot of tactical mobility
3. Condition removal
4. Evade on demand
5. Cripple on demand
6. Stealth on demand
7. Boon strip on demand
8. Daze on demand
9. Blind on demand

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head.

The key here is the “on demand” portion because it allows me to be very strategic and tactical in my fights. Those who complains about S/D are not complaining about spamming 33333333 — their complains are legitimate because an S/D user can, and will, pull off some crazy combination of what skills are available to them. With the addition of Steal and utility skills, S/D set has a lot of control in a fight.

The OP will make us believe that there’s nothing wrong with S/D in terms of damage, but that assessment is too narrow minded to actually address the issue. Damage only matters if those attack hits, but with S/D’s access to a lot of area control (i.e. shadow step, cripple) and damage prevention skills (i.e. blind, evade), the damage argument fails in this regards.

The problem with Anet

So now that we know what the main problem is, what is the solution? Nerf the weapon set to the ground until it’s no longer usable like what they did in GW1 to Smiter’s Boon?

That was the laziest solution in history and hopefully they don’t intend to repeat it.

So I’ve come to acknowledge that S/D has indeed have a problem, but nerfing the central skill of the weapon set will not only harm the set, but also everything else that is built around it (i.e. gear, sigil, runes).

The Thief community did not asked for “boon hate” skills, this was your idea Anet. So why do you continue to try and harm the Thief community by making knee jerk reactions to complaints? Why not use your “reiteration” skills that you’ve used in the past to make sure that you have exhausted all options that the changes you’ve chosen is completely justified?

Conclusion

The Thief profession is not like any other profession. It is unique in every ways and it needs to be fully comprehended before any changes needs to be made. The last effort to throw a bone at the Thief community by giving us “boon hate” only backfired and exploded on your face. What more do Anet need to finally come to realization that the Thief profession needs a special attention — meaning someone in Anet needs to play Thief full time. In the end, if they have not cared in the past, why would they care now?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The problem with S/D

The main problem with S/D is the whole weapon set. I preferred using this set over other sets for these very reasons:

1. It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high.
2. Shadow steps allows a lot of tactical mobility
3. Condition removal
4. Evade on demand
5. Cripple on demand
6. Stealth on demand
7. Boon strip on demand
8. Daze on demand
9. Blind on demand

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head.

The key here is the “on demand” portion because it allows me to be very strategic and tactical in my fights. Those who complains about S/D are not complaining about spamming 33333333 — their complains are legitimate because an S/D user can, and will, pull off some crazy combination of what skills are available to them. With the addition of Steal and utility skills, S/D set has a lot of control in a fight.

The OP will make us believe that there’s nothing wrong with S/D in terms of damage, but that assessment is too narrow minded to actually address the issue. Damage only matters if those attack hits, but with S/D’s access to a lot of area control (i.e. shadow step, cripple) and damage prevention skills (i.e. blind, evade), the damage argument fails in this regards.

The problem with Anet

So now that we know what the main problem is, what is the solution? Nerf the weapon set to the ground until it’s no longer usable like what they did in GW1 to Smiter’s Boon?

That was the laziest solution in history and hopefully they don’t intend to repeat it.

So I’ve come to acknowledge that S/D has indeed have a problem, but nerfing the central skill of the weapon set will not only harm the set, but also everything else that is built around it (i.e. gear, sigil, runes).

The Thief community did not asked for “boon hate” skills, this was your idea Anet. So why do you continue to try and harm the Thief community by making knee jerk reactions to complaints? Why not use your “reiteration” skills that you’ve used in the past to make sure that you have exhausted all options that the changes you’ve chosen is completely justified?

Conclusion

The Thief profession is not like any other profession. It is unique in every ways and it needs to be fully comprehended before any changes needs to be made. The last effort to throw a bone at the Thief community by giving us “boon hate” only backfired and exploded on your face. What more do Anet need to finally come to realization that the Thief profession needs a special attention — meaning someone in Anet needs to play Thief full time. In the end, if they have not cared in the past, why would they care now?

Your use of the words on demand is just wrong here buddy…

-Condition removal ( u need to waste 5 initiative to remove 1 cond)

-Evade on demand ( IS evade is crap whats good on evades build is the 15 trait in Trickery + sig of agility, any thief build can use that)

-Cripple on demand (any off hand dagger thief or has it.)

-Stealth on demand (LOL CnD is stealth on demand? only if ur target is a dummy, for example d/p get stealth much easier depending on the build)

-Boon strip on demand ( 5 initiative 2 boons IF people cant dodge, Bountyfull thief trait or whatever its called is a much more reliable boon strip skill)

- Daze on demand (LMAO… the dazze from S/D comes from stealth CnD 6 init + a backstab… yea.. totaly on demand. pistol off hand much better.)

- Blind on demand (LMAO again… pistol off hand or d/p skill 3 come on you are not even trying to think here…)

-It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high. (Dagger AUTO attack chain got higher and faster DPS the only thing is thats single target, if u dont belive go and test it.)
…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Your conclusion on the other hand great, ANet should really give us attention, think about any changes before doing it and not just listen to so many crys out there.

Walker.3056:

Your use of the words on demand is just wrong here buddy…

An understatement, to say the least.

-Condition removal ( u need to waste 5 initiative to remove 1 cond)

or a separate scenario, 2 init and a disengage, which could be beneficial to your target if you’re further than 600 away when you SR back.

-Evade on demand ( IS evade is crap whats good on evades build is the 15 trait in Trickery + sig of agility, any thief build can use that)

If you FS, you can’t FS again for 5s/until you cast LS, so not exactly “on demand”

-Cripple on demand (any off hand dagger thief or has it.)

-Stealth on demand (LOL CnD is stealth on demand? only if ur target is a dummy, for example d/p get stealth much easier depending on the build)

-Boon strip on demand ( 5 initiative 2 boons IF people cant dodge, Bountyfull thief trait or whatever its called is a much more reliable boon strip skill)

Again, “On demand” is a very liberal use of the term, because you have to FS first.

- Daze on demand (LMAO… the dazze from S/D comes from stealth CnD 6 init + a backstab… yea.. totaly on demand. pistol off hand much better.)

So if anyone is casting churning earth or going for a stomp/res (without stability, mind you), you’re covered. Headshot is an “On demand” Daze – Tac strike is a handy daze for long casting time skills and stomp/resses when you target doesn’t have stability.

- Blind on demand (LMAO again… pistol off hand or d/p skill 3 come on you are not even trying to think here…)

Let’s not forget the 4s CD on it as well (due to revealed)

-It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high. (Dagger AUTO attack chain got higher and faster DPS the only thing is thats single target, if u dont belive go and test it.)

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Your conclusion on the other hand great, ANet should really give us attention, think about any changes before doing it and not just listen to so many crys out there.

I too agree with the conclusion, it’s just that Vincent’s arguments for how S/D plays makes it sound like they can do anything they want, instantly, at the press of a button.

With S/D you have many things on demand.
- But you can’t really strip boons, remove conditions, deal damage or stealth at the same time, because all these things are limited to same cooldown, initiative. Initiative replenishes at 1p/1.33sec + other trait and utility based, to recover a CnD takes 8 seconds naturally, ~5 seconds in a build that grants 2 initiative on stealth.
This sets S/D thief at a much higher skillcap, it requires lot more management than any other class, but it’s also highly rewarding for skilled players, while less skilled players are highly punished.

- Other ways of condition removal is expensive and cases damage to other aspects of the S/D build, runes of lyssa are awesome though.

- Main source of dmg is auto-attack and LS, with the overnerfed Tactical Strike in sPvP and other classes high access to knockdowns, stuns, chills and other disabling CC, LS is most viable, autoattack is limited to not being attacked.

- We can’t land our on demand daze defensively since abilities like Rangers Rapid Fire is front tracking you like in Lineage 2.

I think S/D is fine as it is now, it could use some more polishing, but there is low viable build variation to it currently and other thief weapon sets could use some love.

Excalibur.9748:

Recently I’ve noticed a disturbing trend.

People are not gonna be satisfied with just larcenous strike nerf. They want infiltrator strike nerf (good call, I would say that this skill is the bread and butter of S/D kit). And general evade nerf (an S/D thief can be built to evade many times in a row).

It’s getting to me because I don’t think they realize that it’s actually hard to play in sPvP and a regen bunker warrior is a lot easier to play in sPvP.

There is this misconception that you can’t hit the “perma-evade” thief…yet I can consistently hit them with GS auto attack (!) on my warrior. The rate that the thief loses health to my auto attack is practically the same as me losing HP. But considering that he is using all his evades/skills/initiatives and I’m just using auto attack chain and dealing the SAME damage…how does that make the S/D thief OP in any way?

Another funny story…one time I was 1v1ing this S/D thief who was just dancing cirlces around me, and then he withdrew to his doom , when he fell down one of those cracks on sky hammer. That was funny as hell! Withdraw is an okay heal, but can’t really touch healing signet in any way. It’s good if you want to get out since it propels you backwards, but what if you don’t want to? Well tough luck, it comes with withdraw.

The ONLY nerf to S/D kit I can advise is nerf to energy sigil, in the same way that paralization sigil is being nerfed to nerf warrior. A hit to energy sigil will hit S/D thief hardest. This will cut down on the evade spam “issue” which is really not that much of an issue since they can still be hit while they’re chaining evades.

How cute.. op talking about op

Excalibur.9748:

The ONLY nerf to S/D kit I can advise is nerf to energy sigil, in the same way that paralization sigil is being nerfed to nerf warrior. A hit to energy sigil will hit S/D thief hardest. This will cut down on the evade spam “issue” which is really not that much of an issue since they can still be hit while they’re chaining evades.

Though I do not find S/D that OP, I still think this is a very valid argument and not that bad of an idea. I also agree with the replies of Walker and evilapprentice, a lot of misconceptions about S/D always surface and make me wonder if those people actually ever played the set (or atleast not recently).

Walker.3056:

Your use of the words on demand is just wrong here buddy…

Your respond is an obvious reaction coming from some one who do not use S/D and your respond to my points is evidence of this. You seem to not understand what “on demand” means for an S/D set.

-Condition removal ( u need to waste 5 initiative to remove 1 cond)

No other weapon set has access to this. Even if it cost all our Init, it’s still there, available for the Thief when needed. And using SR cost 2 Init, not 5. IF is used for CC not Condition Removal.

-Evade on demand ( IS evade is crap whats good on evades build is the 15 trait in Trickery + sig of agility, any thief build can use that)

Whether it is good or crap doesn’t change the fact that it is available for S/D. You have no counter-argument here.

-Cripple on demand (any off hand dagger thief or has it.)

What’s your point? The list I made is not for individual properties of the weapon set, but it is to be perceived as a whole. S/D #2 + #4 gives a Thief a powerful CC skills on demand.

-Stealth on demand (LOL CnD is stealth on demand? only if ur target is a dummy, for example d/p get stealth much easier depending on the build)

The fact is, Stealth is on demand. Again, no counter-argument here from you.

-Boon strip on demand ( 5 initiative 2 boons IF people cant dodge, Bountyfull thief trait or whatever its called is a much more reliable boon strip skill)

This is the type of comment coming from those who doesn’t use S/D who simply have no idea what they are talking about. If you don’t have a slightest idea on how this works, then you’re at a lost. I won’t even try to explain it to you since your purpose is simply to mock, not to counter my arguments.

- Daze on demand (LMAO… the dazze from S/D comes from stealth CnD 6 init + a backstab… yea.. totaly on demand. pistol off hand much better.)

Again, another sign of someone who doesn’t understand the weapon set.

- Blind on demand (LMAO again… pistol off hand or d/p skill 3 come on you are not even trying to think here…)

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about here. If you don’t know how this works, please stop responding.

-It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high. (Dagger AUTO attack chain got higher and faster DPS the only thing is thats single target, if u dont belive go and test it.)

Pure non-sense.

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Really? So where’s your CC? Oh wait, you have none. What about Condition Removal? Shadow Return to get our of tight spot? Here’s an easy one: how about evade? Boon Strip? No?

Well that sucks for you.

Your conclusion on the other hand great, ANet should really give us attention, think about any changes before doing it and not just listen to so many crys out there.

Yet you still fail to acknowledge why S/D is getting all the attention. I love this weapon set as it was before the FS/LS change, but they simply broke it with their “creative” fix. You can mock my post all you want, but you either have no idea what S/D is all about or you’re simply in denial.

Besides it’s so obvious that you don’t use S/D since you promote D/P every chance you get.

D/P has CC, daze (from headshot) is considered to be hard CC whereas immobilize and cripple are soft CC.

Blind is another form of CC, but soft CC.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

evilapprentice.6379:

or a separate scenario, 2 init and a disengage, which could be beneficial to your target if you’re further than 600 away when you SR back.

Why would you disengage to benefit your target? If you need to SR, it means you are at a disadvantage and it is for you benefit.

You’re not making any sense here.

The only time it would beneficial to your target is if you noobishly SR for no apparent reason.

If you FS, you can’t FS again for 5s/until you cast LS, so not exactly “on demand”

How is that not “on demand” if your initial FS did exactly that?

FYI, only noobs spams #3 hoping for evades.

Again, “On demand” is a very liberal use of the term, because you have to FS first.

Why do you think FS is being pre-cast before engaging? If you don’t know, then forget it.

So if anyone is casting churning earth or going for a stomp/res (without stability, mind you), you’re covered. Headshot is an “On demand” Daze – Tac strike is a handy daze for long casting time skills and stomp/resses when you target doesn’t have stability.

Doesn’t change the fact the it is available to S/D when situation demands it.

Let’s not forget the 4s CD on it as well (due to revealed)

How is CD makes it less on demand? Is you definition of “on demand” is equal to “spammable”?

I too agree with the conclusion, it’s just that Vincent’s arguments for how S/D plays makes it sound like they can do anything they want, instantly, at the press of a button.

Not “anything” just a combination of things that can make your opponent go bonkers. I’ve seen what S/D can do and I’ve done most of the things myself. This is not just a 3rd party observation. This is why it is important that Anet experience the Thief first hand before making any changes.

Yea the post is crap edited but i realized no matter how i try to explain some people just cant get it back to gw2

No other weapon set has access to this. Even if it cost all our Init, it’s still there, available for the Thief when needed. And using SR cost 2 Init, not 5. IF is used for CC not Condition Removal. (to use SR u need first 3 init IF… and any thief can trait to get cond removal on invi wich is by far much better and with it almost all wepon set are able to clear a cond)— thiefs NOT the ONLY profession that can CLEAR cond with just WEAPON SET

Whether it is good or crap doesn’t change the fact that it is available for S/D. You have no counter-argument here. (As i said the prob are with trait 15 trick and sig of agility, otehr classes like rager got even more than one vade skill on their weapon slots…)

What’s your point? The list I made is not for individual properties of the weapon set, but it is to be perceived as a whole. S/D #2 + #4 gives a Thief a powerful CC skills on demand.
(again u talk about S/D but the thing is almost any class/thief build has it on demand)

The fact is, Stealth is on demand. Again, no counter-argument here from you. (Again u use stealth on demand for S/D builds as an positive aspect from other thief builds but almost all thiefs can stealth on demand and many much easier than s/d thats the point)

Again, another sign of someone who doesn’t understand the weapon set. ( LOL just LOL on the daze aspect… omg… clueless)

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about here. If you don’t know how this works, please stop responding. (LOL again this is so funny a blind as a stealth attack that must be from front to happen + reveal timer yea thats for sure awesome on demand)

About AA chain just TEST it please before saying things but maybe u are just to proud to admit when your wrong =/ doesnt really matter to me

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)
A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.
Really? So where’s your CC? Oh wait, you have none. What about Condition Removal? Shadow Return to get our of tight spot? Here’s an easy one: how about evade? Boon Strip? No?
CC?? PISTOL N4 LMAO
COND REMOVAL clear on stealth much easier/better on a D/P build jesus… learn the class not only one build.
Shdow return cant have it but we got shadowstep
EVADE? omg… again 15 Trick + sig of agility + offhand SB gg so many evades (again learn the class not a build.)
Boon Strip Bountyful thief Boon strip + vigor for everyone around (same as above)

The thing is i play thief.
D/P WvW S/D spvp thats and played on almost every build out there thats why i know what im talking and i know about the class mechanics and you for sure with your line of thoughts have only started playing thief as a S/D

Excalibur.9748:

D/P has CC, daze (from headshot) is considered to be hard CC whereas immobilize and cripple are soft CC.

Blind is another form of CC, but soft CC.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Either you’re making things up or you’re playing semantics. Daze is a disable, not CC. Daze is under “control effect” not “condition”. Cripple, Imobile, chill, fear are all CC — Daze is not.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Excalibur.9748:

D/P has CC, daze (from headshot) is considered to be hard CC whereas immobilize and cripple are soft CC.

Blind is another form of CC, but soft CC.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Either you’re making things up or you’re playing semantics. Daze is a disable, not CC. Daze is under “control effect” not “condition”. Cripple, Imobile, chill, fear are all CC — Daze is not.

Crowd control is essentially the same group of effects, notably used in-game in effect descriptions of Unshakable and Defiant tooltips. Some enemies possess the Unstoppable ability which makes them totally immune to control effects as well as movement-restricting conditions like crippled or immobilized.

[edit]

Just gonna leave this here. Crowd control (CC) INCLUDES control effects.

I’m not gonna blame you though, I made the same blunder on the warrior forums one time and the other guy looked at me like I’m a total noob. I thought this was an easy mistake to make.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Excalibur.9748:

D/P has CC, daze (from headshot) is considered to be hard CC whereas immobilize and cripple are soft CC.

Blind is another form of CC, but soft CC.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Either you’re making things up or you’re playing semantics. Daze is a disable, not CC. Daze is under “control effect” not “condition”. Cripple, Imobile, chill, fear are all CC — Daze is not.

CC =/= Condition…
CC skills = Crowd Control Effect skills …
loled

Sir Vincent III, so stun is not a CC?
Dude you just make no sense in any thief’s thread, that is not first time when you sounds like crab – cluck-cluck-cluck!
Thief just require 15 Acro trait reworked to give might on dodge, and minor trait should become major from master line. This is either rework and nerf to particulary S/D and other dodgespam thiefs, but this will make sense?

Walker.3056:

thiefs NOT the ONLY profession that can CLEAR cond with just WEAPON SET

Do you even realize that by saying that means nothing? Thieves still have access to it while teleporting us to a safe place.

(As i said the prob are with trait 15 trick and sig of agility, otehr classes like rager got even more than one vade skill on their weapon slots…)

You can’t use other profession as a premise to your argument. You need to look at the S/D set and see what it can do. If Rangers starts to show problems with their weapon set, then that can be address on it’s own — in a separate settings/thread.

(again u talk about S/D but the thing is almost any class/thief build has it on demand)

sigh….

(Again u use stealth on demand for S/D builds as an positive aspect from other thief builds but almost all thiefs can stealth on demand and many much easier than s/d thats the point)

Other weapon set has easier access to stealth than S/D? Which set? D/P? Don’t be ridiculous.

( LOL just LOL on the daze aspect… omg… clueless)

Well, if you are going to go down that road, perhaps your posts really have no value to me.

(LOL again this is so funny a blind as a stealth attack that must be from front to happen + reveal timer yea thats for sure awesome on demand)

sigh…

About AA chain just TEST it please before saying things but maybe u are just to proud to admit when your wrong =/ doesnt really matter to me

Been there, done that.

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Really now?

CC???? PISTOL N4 LMAO

Pistol #4 is not a CC.

Learn the game. Learn the difference between CC and Disable.

COND REMOVAL?? clear on stealth much easier/better on a D/P build jesus… learn the class not only one build.

So D/P have no condition removal. Thanks.

Shdow return cant have it but we got shadowstep

So D/P have no shadow return. Thanks.

EVADE??? omg… again 15 Trick + sig of agility + offhand SB gg so many evades (again learn the class not a build.)

So D/P have no evade. Thanks.

Boon Strip?? Bountyful thief Boon strip + vigor for everyone around (same as above)

Do you see the pattern here?

S/D have more access to many things while other sets, like D/P, has to go out of it’s way to get evade and boon strip.

Here a question: If D/P have a boon stripping property, will you even spec Bountiful Thief or you’ll rather spend the Trait Points somewhere else?

The thing is i play thief.
D/P WvW S/D spvp thats and played on almost every build out there thats why i know what im talking and i know about the class mechanics and you for sure with your line of thoughts have only started playing thief as a S/D

So why then respond with very unthoughtful statements?

If that is the case, then you should share your insight more deeply that just saying “LOL, clueless”

You can make a claim all you want, but your posts says otherwise.

Excalibur.9748:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Excalibur.9748:

D/P has CC, daze (from headshot) is considered to be hard CC whereas immobilize and cripple are soft CC.

Blind is another form of CC, but soft CC.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Control_effect

Either you’re making things up or you’re playing semantics. Daze is a disable, not CC. Daze is under “control effect” not “condition”. Cripple, Imobile, chill, fear are all CC — Daze is not.

Crowd control is essentially the same group of effects, notably used in-game in effect descriptions of Unshakable and Defiant tooltips. Some enemies possess the Unstoppable ability which makes them totally immune to control effects as well as movement-restricting conditions like crippled or immobilized.

[edit]

Just gonna leave this here. Crowd control (CC) INCLUDES control effects.

I’m not gonna blame you though, I made the same blunder on the warrior forums one time and the other guy looked at me like I’m a total noob. I thought this was an easy mistake to make.

Then it is semantics. I call it “disable” rather than “hard CC” just to clearly identify what effect I am talking about. The effect of Daze and Cripple are 2 different things and I find it important to distinguish them by using “disable” for the former and “CC” for the latter. If that is wrong to say, then I will concede in using “hard CC” and “soft CC” instead, just to speak on your level.

I Will stop this cause when you cant admit you are wrong about such basic thing as CC… or worse think you are right means everyone Will Just Waste time here

Walker.3056:

I Will stop this cause when you cant admit you are wrong about such basic thing as CC… or worse think you are right means everyone Will Just Waste time here

Didn’t you read this?

If that is wrong to say, then I will concede in using “hard CC” and “soft CC” instead

But I know why you choose to stop, you can’t back up your claim. Fair enough.

@Vincent

So much wall of text well anyway, you’re talking a lot of nonsense here so i have to respond

Blind / Daze is NOT on demand. Why? Warrior starts Eviscerate -> you need blind -> you cast CnD in order to blind -> you get one shot because it takes too long to get the blind off.

Another example: Opponent is almost dead he wants to heal -> you need to daze -> you cast CnD -> enemy gets heal off because you had to precast CnD -> you fail, hard.

Also if you waste 6 Ini to blind someone you do a lot of mistakes only a new player would do but anyway… lets continue. (on S/D, not talking about D/P here)

SR removes one condition yes, but it also costs you 5 initiative to do so. Now i know you will argue “no SR only cost 2 init” no, just no. SR is a toggle skill which means you have to precast IS first thus it costs you 5 Initiative to clean a condition. For example you get hit by Signet of Spite.. i wish you goodluck to cleanse all the condis with SR. Just because SR does clean a condition doesnt mean it is reliable.

Stealth on demand? Yes, but that doesnt mean it is any good whatsoever. Of course there are Situations where you want to use CnD (to interrupt a res for example, or to run away whatsoever) but please play against good people, they will dodge / blind / block every CnD you try to pull off. And besides, CnD is hardly used in a typical S/D build. It was big when daze builds used to work but they are complete crap now. 515151 only gets you so far..

Boon Strip? Yes, very powerful. But will get nerfed very soon so yea..

Evade on demand? Yes and no. You have an Evade on demand if you have not precasted FS before. Btw, this is what the set is supposed to be, evade-ish, slippery, etc. So what exactly is the issue here?

A lot of Shadowsteps? Yes, but take that away from S/D and you can say goodbye to it. It is the backbone of the set as much as blinds + stealth is the backbone of D/P.

And btw Dagger MH AA chain DOES MORE DPS than sword. It also doesnt get hard countered by blinds like S/D AA does. But it cleaves in exchange.

I seriously doubt you have played S/D a lot or else you wouldnt talk so much nonsense. Please learn the set before you talk, thank you.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

-words-

You use the phrase “On demand” the way most people I’ve ever interacted with would use “available”. IMO, “On Demand” conjures the image of “This ability is always immediately available to me”

You don’t have Daze or Blind “On Demand” – you have it available. You can CnD, then fulfill the positional requirements.

You don’t have evade “On Demand” – you potentially have it available. If you’ve used FS to evade something, you’ve got 5 seconds/.5s LS casting time +2 init before you can use FS to evade again. Same goes for LS boon steal – It’s available, but not on demand

This goes for nearly every situation in which you described an ability as “On Demand” – You meant potentially available, which is correct.

Wow whenever any decent thief build gets made somebody has to, cry and call for a nerf.
a few things I find common in these types of threads, so and so has trouble killing a thief who either is good as a thief, or is emulating good thieves out there, they think thieves should just sit there and take a beating like a war or guard does, they get kitten ed at our main mobility defense/ stealth defense, the only two ways we have at mitigating damage and have decent dps. and last but not least they probably are not good enough at the game or know how each class works, and wants everything kittened down to WoW standards, where anyone can feel accomplished with no skill or effort. That is all.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

@Vincent

So much wall of text well anyway, you’re talking a lot of nonsense here so i have to respond

Well let’s see who’s talking a lot non-sense.

Blind / Daze is NOT on demand. Why? Warrior starts Eviscerate -> you need blind -> you cast CnD in order to blind -> you get one shot because it takes too long to get the blind off.

Really now? This is your best scenario to counter blind/daze?

Let’s not go down the path of stupid arguments. Every Thief know that in this scenario, it has to be dodge/evade.

Another example: Opponent is almost dead he wants to heal -> you need to daze -> you cast CnD -> enemy gets heal off because you had to precast CnD -> you fail, hard.

No! You don’t need to daze that heal. OMG, that’s just stupid!

Let him heal and put his heal in CD then he’s dead afterwards.

Also if you waste 6 Ini to blind someone you do a lot of mistakes only a new player would do but anyway… lets continue. (on S/D, not talking about D/P here)

Do you even know when to use blind? Nor what situation demands blind?

If a situation does not demands blind, you don’t use it — because — it is your ON DEMAND skill.

SR removes one condition yes, but it also costs you 5 initiative to do so. Now i know you will argue “no SR only cost 2 init” no, just no. SR is a toggle skill which means you have to precast IS first thus it costs you 5 Initiative to clean a condition. For example you get hit by Signet of Spite.. i wish you goodluck to cleanse all the condis with SR. Just because SR does clean a condition doesnt mean it is reliable.

You have no counter argument, just a lot of non-sense.

Stealth on demand? Yes, but that doesnt mean it is any good whatsoever. Of course there are Situations where you want to use CnD (to interrupt a res for example, or to run away whatsoever) but please play against good people, they will dodge / blind / block every CnD you try to pull off. And besides, CnD is hardly used in a typical S/D build. It was big when daze builds used to work but they are complete crap now. 515151 only gets you so far..

That doesn’t change the fact that when the situation demands stealth — I CAN!

Boon Strip? Yes, very powerful. But will get nerfed very soon so yea..

What’s your point?!

Evade on demand? Yes and no. You have an Evade on demand if you have not precasted FS before. Btw, this is what the set is supposed to be, evade-ish, slippery, etc. So what exactly is the issue here?

A lot of Shadowsteps? Yes, but take that away from S/D and you can say goodbye to it. It is the backbone of the set as much as blinds + stealth is the backbone of D/P.

And btw Dagger MH AA chain DOES MORE DPS than sword. It also doesnt get hard countered by blinds like S/D AA does. But it cleaves in exchange.

I seriously doubt you have played S/D a lot or else you wouldnt talk so much nonsense. Please learn the set before you talk, thank you.

Ok, that was a waste of time…. user noted.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

-words-

You use the phrase “On demand” the way most people I’ve ever interacted with would use “available”. IMO, “On Demand” conjures the image of “This ability is always immediately available to me”

Yes, exactly. S/D insures that those abilities are available to you.

You don’t have Daze or Blind “On Demand” – you have it available. You can CnD, then fulfill the positional requirements.

The situation has to demand the daze/blind, otherwise, why would you use it? Certain situation demands evade over blind, for example. Or Cripple over stealth. Etc.

Just because you want to blind in a given situation doesn’t mean that it is the right action to take. The decision you make separates your from noobish habit of using skill on impulse, rather than assessing what the situation demands.

This is why I used “on demand” to highlight who are those are lacking understanding on what S/D is capable of. You can judge those by reviewing the responses to my initial post.

You don’t have evade “On Demand” – you potentially have it available. If you’ve used FS to evade something, you’ve got 5 seconds/.5s LS casting time +2 init before you can use FS to evade again. Same goes for LS boon steal – It’s available, but not on demand

It seems to me that you are not understanding what “on demand” means. Just because your target has boon, doesn’t mean that you have to strip it. Just because you have FS available doesn’t mean you have to evade the next attack.

Note what I said in my initial post.

“The key here is the “on demand” portion because it allows me to be very strategic and tactical in my fights.”

Meaning you don’t waste CDs and Initiatives on impulsive tendencies, instead wait until the situation demands the use of certain skill. Only those who practice with S/D can understand this and how valuable each skill and each point of initiative is.

This goes for nearly every situation in which you described an ability as “On Demand” – You meant potentially available, which is correct.

Partially correct — explanation above.

Yea never should try to daze a heal skill… so much waste of time…

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

@Vincent

So much wall of text well anyway, you’re talking a lot of nonsense here so i have to respond

Well let’s see who’s talking a lot non-sense.

Blind / Daze is NOT on demand. Why? Warrior starts Eviscerate -> you need blind -> you cast CnD in order to blind -> you get one shot because it takes too long to get the blind off.

Really now? This is your best scenario to counter blind/daze?

Let’s not go down the path of stupid arguments. Every Thief know that in this scenario, it has to be dodge/evade.

Another example: Opponent is almost dead he wants to heal -> you need to daze -> you cast CnD -> enemy gets heal off because you had to precast CnD -> you fail, hard.

No! You don’t need to daze that heal. OMG, that’s just stupid!

Let him heal and put his heal in CD then he’s dead afterwards.

Also if you waste 6 Ini to blind someone you do a lot of mistakes only a new player would do but anyway… lets continue. (on S/D, not talking about D/P here)

Do you even know when to use blind? Nor what situation demands blind?

If a situation does not demands blind, you don’t use it — because — it is your ON DEMAND skill.

SR removes one condition yes, but it also costs you 5 initiative to do so. Now i know you will argue “no SR only cost 2 init” no, just no. SR is a toggle skill which means you have to precast IS first thus it costs you 5 Initiative to clean a condition. For example you get hit by Signet of Spite.. i wish you goodluck to cleanse all the condis with SR. Just because SR does clean a condition doesnt mean it is reliable.

You have no counter argument, just a lot of non-sense.

Stealth on demand? Yes, but that doesnt mean it is any good whatsoever. Of course there are Situations where you want to use CnD (to interrupt a res for example, or to run away whatsoever) but please play against good people, they will dodge / blind / block every CnD you try to pull off. And besides, CnD is hardly used in a typical S/D build. It was big when daze builds used to work but they are complete crap now. 515151 only gets you so far..

That doesn’t change the fact that when the situation demands stealth — I CAN!

Boon Strip? Yes, very powerful. But will get nerfed very soon so yea..

What’s your point?!

Evade on demand? Yes and no. You have an Evade on demand if you have not precasted FS before. Btw, this is what the set is supposed to be, evade-ish, slippery, etc. So what exactly is the issue here?

A lot of Shadowsteps? Yes, but take that away from S/D and you can say goodbye to it. It is the backbone of the set as much as blinds + stealth is the backbone of D/P.

And btw Dagger MH AA chain DOES MORE DPS than sword. It also doesnt get hard countered by blinds like S/D AA does. But it cleaves in exchange.

I seriously doubt you have played S/D a lot or else you wouldnt talk so much nonsense. Please learn the set before you talk, thank you.

Ok, that was a waste of time…. user noted.

lol oh man… lets stop here.

Walker.3056:

Yea never should try to daze a heal skill… so much waste of time…

on S/D it is actually true.
Really high ini cost → prepare time → high chances to fail and have enemy healed and you are empty.
On other sets/build it is more common tactic.

dDuff.3860:

Walker.3056:

Yea never should try to daze a heal skill… so much waste of time…

on S/D it is actually true.
Really high ini cost -> prepare time -> high chances to fail and have enemy healed and you are empty.
On other sets/build it is more common tactic.

But S/D has daze on demand?! Im confused now…

Sizzle Hint.1820:

dDuff.3860:

Walker.3056:

Yea never should try to daze a heal skill… so much waste of time…

on S/D it is actually true.
Really high ini cost -> prepare time -> high chances to fail and have enemy healed and you are empty.
On other sets/build it is more common tactic.

But S/D has daze on demand?! Im confused now…

nah, i never said that)

dDuff.3860:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

dDuff.3860:

Walker.3056:

Yea never should try to daze a heal skill… so much waste of time…

on S/D it is actually true.
Really high ini cost -> prepare time -> high chances to fail and have enemy healed and you are empty.
On other sets/build it is more common tactic.

But S/D has daze on demand?! Im confused now…

nah, i never said that)

Im just mocking this vincent guy man

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

Accidentaly, I haven’t found you on leaderboard to decide what bracket are you talking about.
In my ~100-150 it is vital to interrupt heal and to protect it with both stability/invulnerability, but i’m not playing cheesy S/D to follow its path.

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

Accidentaly, I haven’t found you on leaderboard to decide what bracket are you talking about.
In my ~100-150 it is vital to interrupt heal and to protect it with both stability/invulnerability, but i’m not playing cheesy S/D to follow its path.

So now we’re talking in brackets?

Where else can we drag the discussion about S/D just so you can justify and rationalize your position?

I will repeat it here, healing is not the situation that demands S/D to interrupt.

If you like to interrupt heal skills, why use S/D? It is obvious that if you like to interrupt heals, your playstyle requires the use of x/P where you can satisfy your impulse with headshots.

The facts I’ve listed in my initial post still stands, so no matter where you drag the discussion, the facts never change.

There is just too much properties into the S/D weapon set that other sets have no access to. Period.

If you can dispute that, then I concede.

Instead all the responses here are simply to mock because they have no counter arguments.

Healing is a situation that DEMAND an interrupt and S/D cant provide that even having a daze machanic… sooo ________________________________

Complete that and be happy or not
just cant make you understand here, so many people already tried… lol

Walker.3056:

Healing is a situation that DEMAND an interrupt and S/D cant provide that even having a daze machanic… sooo ________________________________

Complete that and be happy or not
just cant make you understand here, so many people already tried… lol

Your assessment on what situation demands daze is remarkable.

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III, so stun is not a CC?
Dude you just make no sense in any thief’s thread, that is not first time when you sounds like crab – cluck-cluck-cluck!
Thief just require 15 Acro trait reworked to give might on dodge, and minor trait should become major from master line. This is either rework and nerf to particulary S/D and other dodgespam thiefs, but this will make sense?

Why does feline grace need to be changed? It really only has any advantage over vigor when combined with vigor. Both guardians and mesmers have vigor on crit in their adept tier of traits, so it seems that a class built to dodge more would have a slightly better version in it’s master tier. Also might on dodge is already available on the adept tier, why move it?

Vincent stop trolling please.

Thief: I DEMAND stealth! CnD
Opponent: NO! Dodge

Yes, on demand stealth on S/D, proof!

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

Accidentaly, I haven’t found you on leaderboard to decide what bracket are you talking about.
In my ~100-150 it is vital to interrupt heal and to protect it with both stability/invulnerability, but i’m not playing cheesy S/D to follow its path.

How is S/P less cheesy? Get off your high horse man.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Walker.3056:

Your use of the words on demand is just wrong here buddy…

Your respond is an obvious reaction coming from some one who do not use S/D and your respond to my points is evidence of this. You seem to not understand what “on demand” means for an S/D set.

-Condition removal ( u need to waste 5 initiative to remove 1 cond)

No other weapon set has access to this. Even if it cost all our Init, it’s still there, available for the Thief when needed. And using SR cost 2 Init, not 5. IF is used for CC not Condition Removal.

-Evade on demand ( IS evade is crap whats good on evades build is the 15 trait in Trickery + sig of agility, any thief build can use that)

Whether it is good or crap doesn’t change the fact that it is available for S/D. You have no counter-argument here.

-Cripple on demand (any off hand dagger thief or has it.)

What’s your point? The list I made is not for individual properties of the weapon set, but it is to be perceived as a whole. S/D #2 + #4 gives a Thief a powerful CC skills on demand.

-Stealth on demand (LOL CnD is stealth on demand? only if ur target is a dummy, for example d/p get stealth much easier depending on the build)

The fact is, Stealth is on demand. Again, no counter-argument here from you.

-Boon strip on demand ( 5 initiative 2 boons IF people cant dodge, Bountyfull thief trait or whatever its called is a much more reliable boon strip skill)

This is the type of comment coming from those who doesn’t use S/D who simply have no idea what they are talking about. If you don’t have a slightest idea on how this works, then you’re at a lost. I won’t even try to explain it to you since your purpose is simply to mock, not to counter my arguments.

- Daze on demand (LMAO… the dazze from S/D comes from stealth CnD 6 init + a backstab… yea.. totaly on demand. pistol off hand much better.)

Again, another sign of someone who doesn’t understand the weapon set.

- Blind on demand (LMAO again… pistol off hand or d/p skill 3 come on you are not even trying to think here…)

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about here. If you don’t know how this works, please stop responding.

-It has the highest auto-attack damage, albeit slow, it’s high. (Dagger AUTO attack chain got higher and faster DPS the only thing is thats single target, if u dont belive go and test it.)

Pure non-sense.

…just to name the reasons I can think of from the top of my head. (try again plz)

A D/P set can have access to all those stuffs but the cripple, and on many of those aspects its much easier and better than a S/D set.

Really? So where’s your CC? Oh wait, you have none. What about Condition Removal? Shadow Return to get our of tight spot? Here’s an easy one: how about evade? Boon Strip? No?

Well that sucks for you.

Your conclusion on the other hand great, ANet should really give us attention, think about any changes before doing it and not just listen to so many crys out there.

Yet you still fail to acknowledge why S/D is getting all the attention. I love this weapon set as it was before the FS/LS change, but they simply broke it with their “creative” fix. You can mock my post all you want, but you either have no idea what S/D is all about or you’re simply in denial.

Besides it’s so obvious that you don’t use S/D since you promote D/P every chance you get.

I just want to take issue with the condition removal on weapon that you said no other class has access to. Necro has 2 different weapons that transfer conditions: OH dagger and Staff.

OH dagger is sort of funny as it has to bounce for it’s full condition transfer, but it can transfer up to 3 conditions to up to enemies hit by it on an 18 second cooldown. as someone else mentioned, without traits we gain 1 initiative every 1.33 seconds. Un-traited it takes us 20 seconds to regain that initiative and all of our other weapon skills are useless in the meantime. So the necro weapon has a better effect for the cost. As for the staff, it transfers conditions to enemies in the radius on a 25 second cooldown. I do not know the limit to the number of conditions transferred, but if you trait into adept tier death magic you can lower the cooldown to 20 seconds, so if it removes up to 3, then it equals our sword 2 in functionality. If it removes more than 3, then it has better functionality without even needing to trait.

Hype.8032:

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

Accidentaly, I haven’t found you on leaderboard to decide what bracket are you talking about.
In my ~100-150 it is vital to interrupt heal and to protect it with both stability/invulnerability, but i’m not playing cheesy S/D to follow its path.

How is S/P less cheesy? Get off your high horse man.

I think it is less cheesy because it can be countered easier;
Both S/D and S/P has inf. strike and evade frame on #3. But when S/D is moving while evading, S/P is standing here swinging his sword, and i feel like it is much greater chance to be hit by sudden aoe or CC, while flanking strike is a king of mobility.
As for Feline grace – i feel its effect is being superior in this traitline, especially for only 15 points. So easy to just put 15 points and already be a king of evade-spamming.
It should be a choice not a fact.
IMO

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The display of noobish tendencies to interrupt a heal when using S/D is amazing. If you have that impulsive noobish tendencies, it is fitting to your playstyle to use D/P and feed into your tendencies with headshots.

Such noobish tendencies has no place in S/D. A target trying to heal is not a situation that demands daze when using S/D — that’s your noobish tendencies nagging at you.

Which also explains why certain S/D skill are a waste of initiatives to you — in truth, you just don’t know the right moment to use them.

But you argue that S/D has dazes on demand thus i can daze when the situation demands it or not? Which means i should be able to interrupt when my opponents trys to heal? Please clear up your mind.

The same with the blind, you argue you can blind on demand. Ill use my other example here:

Warrior eviscerate -> you dont have endurance, SR up + toggled LS (no FS available) -> you need to counter it -> BUT I CAN BLIND ON DEMAND?!-> you try to blind -> you fail because it takes forever to precast CnD -> you die… But i thought i have blind on demand? Im confused.

The blind from tac strike is so nishe you will rarely ever use it all. I can come handy when u try to stomp a guard or a ranger or maybe blind churning earth (a good ele will get rid of the blind while casting it tho by switching to air and cast air #2 for example). Thats pretty much about it. It is definetly not compareable to a real blind on demand (like SoS for example). In 95% of the cases u wasted 6 initiative which you could have spent for a better skill.

Also stop twisting my words, i never said you should try to daze a heal with tac strike. Even tho i would def recommend it if you are already in stealth beforehand. CnD → tac strike just takes way too long because IT IS NOT ON DEMAND. (unless you are in stealth already)

As someone who runs solo in WvW on a daily basis and with the Orb nodes integrated into WvW and Dire armor being released, its left me with no choice but to run sword dagger. The bunker condi builds that are in there are ridiculous and I pretty much have to blow all condition removal I have to remove the stacks of every kitten condition in the game I have on me. I wouldn’t be too happy if they nerfed infiltrators strike anymore. Seriously that pretty much means I have to run from any engineer or Necro I see. The amount of conditions they can stack on you constantly is just over the top right now and against a good one you need to really outplay your opponent or your dead.

Lol dude just can’t admit he is wrong. First of all since when isn’t daze a CC?
Second what’s with the load of bull about 2 weaponsets? There is a huge difference between having something potentially available by setup or smth that is available on demand.

D/P:
AA – highest dps chain, go test it.
3 – ON DEMAND blind and gapcloser (as in I can use it instantly and whenever I have ini, no need for previous setup)
4 – ON DEMAND ranged daze, no need to setup for stealth
5 – ON DEMAND blind/safestomp
5+2 – ON DEMAND stealth

S/D:
AA – cleave and main damage
2 – ON DEMAND gapcloser, possibly fake stunbreak/1 condicleanse, requires setup
3 – ON DEMAND evade, possibly boonrip, requires heavy setup and usually burning a gapcloser on higher plays
4 – ON DEMAND cripple (although almost never used, since it has high ini cost for low damage)
5 – requires target and successful hit to stealth, can’t stealth if blinded/aegis/block/invuln/evade, so not really on demand.
1 – daze+blind require hitting 2 skills in a row successfully and both not getting denied by blind/aegis/block/invuln/evade, very long setup to use. Definitely not ON DEMAND.

By your logic D/P has always ON DEMAND 10k+ burst since 5+2+backstab will always hit. As any experienced players will tell you, that is not the case.

And gg turning around your daze on demand and interrupting heal thingie. You fail to realise that on demand means that I can reliably do smth. You say that it’s not wise to interrupt heals with S/D. I agree, since the daze setup takes long time and is difficult to hit, that means S/D daze is not on demand. D/P daze is on demand, I see an enemy trying to heal I push a button, heal interrupted and enemy dead. I can even daze him multiple times in a row if I want to.

Source: I actually play S/D and I’ve played D/P in the past.

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No other weapon set has access to this. Even if it cost all our Init, it’s still there, available for the Thief when needed. And using SR cost 2 Init, not 5. IF is used for CC not Condition Removal.

I just want to take issue with the condition removal on weapon that you said no other class has access to. Necro has 2 different weapons that transfer conditions: OH dagger and Staff.

OH dagger is sort of funny as it has to bounce for it’s full condition transfer, but it can transfer up to 3 conditions to up to enemies hit by it on an 18 second cooldown. as someone else mentioned, without traits we gain 1 initiative every 1.33 seconds. Un-traited it takes us 20 seconds to regain that initiative and all of our other weapon skills are useless in the meantime. So the necro weapon has a better effect for the cost. As for the staff, it transfers conditions to enemies in the radius on a 25 second cooldown. I do not know the limit to the number of conditions transferred, but if you trait into adept tier death magic you can lower the cooldown to 20 seconds, so if it removes up to 3, then it equals our sword 2 in functionality. If it removes more than 3, then it has better functionality without even needing to trait.

You seems to misunderstood the context of the discussion.

I didn’t say “no other class;” I said “no other weapon set” within the kitten nals of Thieves.

Psybunny.8906:

Lol dude just can’t admit he is wrong. First of all since when isn’t daze a CC?

I’ve already conceded to call it “hard CC” just for your sake (despite the fact that GW2 calls it a disable, but whatever). So what are you talking about here?

Second what’s with the load of bull about 2 weaponsets? There is a huge difference between having something potentially available by setup or smth that is available on demand.

Well then, let’s look at your post shall we?

D/P:
AA – highest dps chain, go test it.
3 – ON DEMAND blind and gapcloser (as in I can use it instantly and whenever I have ini, no need for previous setup)
4 – ON DEMAND ranged daze, no need to setup for stealth
5 – ON DEMAND blind/safestomp
5+2 – ON DEMAND stealth

S/D:
AA – cleave and main damage
2 – ON DEMAND gapcloser, possibly fake stunbreak/1 condicleanse, requires setup
3 – ON DEMAND evade, possibly boonrip, requires heavy setup and usually burning a gapcloser on higher plays
4 – ON DEMAND cripple (although almost never used, since it has high ini cost for low damage)
5 – requires target and successful hit to stealth, can’t stealth if blinded/aegis/block/invuln/evade, so not really on demand.

Do you see how pathetic is your attempt to devalue the Stealth on demand by saying that it is susceptible to blind/aegis/block/etc? YET you don’t use the same devaluation statement against D/P #3 and #4?

If you want to have a credible argument, don’t shoot yourself on the foot.

1 – daze+blind require hitting 2 skills in a row successfully and both not getting denied by blind/aegis/block/invuln/evade, very long setup to use. Definitely not ON DEMAND.

I’m not disputing that at all, so why are you arguing about it? Care to explain your D/P #3 and #4 being “on demand” when they can be denied by blind/aegis/etc?

You’re talking from the both sides of your mouth.

By your logic D/P has always ON DEMAND 10k+ burst since 5+2+backstab will always hit. As any experienced players will tell you, that is not the case.

It seems you have no idea on what is demanded during a fight. If you look again to my initial post, the only things that are on demand are utilities, not damage.

Stop confusing yourself.

And gg turning around your daze on demand and interrupting heal thingie.

When someone is trying to heal, “interrupt” of any kind is on demand in that situation — meaning, a skill that can be cast almost instantly to prevent further action. Just because daze CAN prevent further action, it doesn’t make it an interrupt — the skill that causes daze is the interrupt (i.e. headshot).

As I already mentioned earlier in this thread, if your noobish impulse is to interrupt the heal, then you are using the wrong weapon set.

You fail to realise that on demand means that I can reliably do smth. You say that it’s not wise to interrupt heals with S/D. I agree, since the daze setup takes long time and is difficult to hit, that means S/D daze is not on demand.

S/D daze is on demand, but not in the situation you are using it to. You have to kitten the situation and use your skill that will yield both strategic and tactical advantage. Saying that it is not on demand because it cannot interrupt a healing skill is a pathetic statement coming from someone who never used S/D.

D/P daze is on demand, I see an enemy trying to heal I push a button, heal interrupted and enemy dead. I can even daze him multiple times in a row if I want to.

Source: I actually play S/D and I’ve played D/P in the past.

You’re contradicting yourself too much in your post. So now that you are using S/D, how do you interrupt healing skills? Do you even try to interrupt it?

My point exactly.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Maugetarr.6823:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No other weapon set has access to this. Even if it cost all our Init, it’s still there, available for the Thief when needed. And using SR cost 2 Init, not 5. IF is used for CC not Condition Removal.

I just want to take issue with the condition removal on weapon that you said no other class has access to. Necro has 2 different weapons that transfer conditions: OH dagger and Staff.

OH dagger is sort of funny as it has to bounce for it’s full condition transfer, but it can transfer up to 3 conditions to up to enemies hit by it on an 18 second cooldown. as someone else mentioned, without traits we gain 1 initiative every 1.33 seconds. Un-traited it takes us 20 seconds to regain that initiative and all of our other weapon skills are useless in the meantime. So the necro weapon has a better effect for the cost. As for the staff, it transfers conditions to enemies in the radius on a 25 second cooldown. I do not know the limit to the number of conditions transferred, but if you trait into adept tier death magic you can lower the cooldown to 20 seconds, so if it removes up to 3, then it equals our sword 2 in functionality. If it removes more than 3, then it has better functionality without even needing to trait.

You seems to misunderstood the context of the discussion.

I didn’t say “no other class;” I said “no other weapon set” within the kitten nals of Thieves.

Oh, well then. If other classes have access on multiple weapons, perhaps we should be buffing other thief weapon sets up to the level of S/D rather than talking about how S/D is too strong. Compared to other classes, its one of the 2 fully fleshed out weapon sets we have.

Maugetarr.6823:

Oh, well then. If other classes have access on multiple weapons, perhaps we should be buffing other thief weapon sets up to the level of S/D rather than talking about how S/D is too strong. Compared to other classes, its one of the 2 fully fleshed out weapon sets we have.

Exactly. This is why I concluded my original post with this:

Conclusion

The Thief profession is not like any other profession. It is unique in every ways and it needs to be fully comprehended before any changes needs to be made. The last effort to throw a bone at the Thief community by giving us “boon hate” only backfired and exploded on your face. What more do Anet need to finally come to realization that the Thief profession needs a special attention — meaning someone in Anet needs to play Thief full time. In the end, if they have not cared in the past, why would they care now?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

-words-

You use the phrase “On demand” the way most people I’ve ever interacted with would use “available”. IMO, “On Demand” conjures the image of “This ability is always immediately available to me”

Yes, exactly. S/D insures that those abilities are available to you.

You don’t have Daze or Blind “On Demand” – you have it available. You can CnD, then fulfill the positional requirements.

The situation has to demand the daze/blind, otherwise, why would you use it? Certain situation demands evade over blind, for example. Or Cripple over stealth. Etc.

Just because you want to blind in a given situation doesn’t mean that it is the right action to take. The decision you make separates your from noobish habit of using skill on impulse, rather than assessing what the situation demands.

This is why I used “on demand” to highlight who are those are lacking understanding on what S/D is capable of. You can judge those by reviewing the responses to my initial post.

You don’t have evade “On Demand” – you potentially have it available. If you’ve used FS to evade something, you’ve got 5 seconds/.5s LS casting time +2 init before you can use FS to evade again. Same goes for LS boon steal – It’s available, but not on demand

It seems to me that you are not understanding what “on demand” means. Just because your target has boon, doesn’t mean that you have to strip it. Just because you have FS available doesn’t mean you have to evade the next attack.

Note what I said in my initial post.

“The key here is the “on demand” portion because it allows me to be very strategic and tactical in my fights.”

Meaning you don’t waste CDs and Initiatives on impulsive tendencies, instead wait until the situation demands the use of certain skill. Only those who practice with S/D can understand this and how valuable each skill and each point of initiative is.

This goes for nearly every situation in which you described an ability as “On Demand” – You meant potentially available, which is correct.

Partially correct — explanation above.

I don’t see a problem with a weaponset that makes alot available to the player, as long as they set it up correctly. That sounds like a strong, high skill cap build to me – it isn’t particularly impressive when an X/P thief interrupts a skill, because Head Shot is always there – It is impressive if an S/D thief does so because he had to (potentially) close to melee, tag a target with CnD, then get behind them and connect with TS.

I just don’t see the problem with a powerful set that forces you to play well if you want to properly access it’s power – every class should have at least 1 weaponset that works like that.