Guild Wars 2

After looking around at several WvW S/D builds, I see that quite a few people use a base of 10/x/x/x/30, usually leaning towards heavy acro/SA or a mix of both. I’m curious as to why I haven’t seen almost a mention about 10/30/30/0/0 or 0/30/30/10/0?

I ran the 10/x/x/x/30 build for a while and had trouble with the lack of raw brute force damage that you could get with the latter builds above. Although I love the trickery tree, why do people prefer a lower dps build over a more bursty type build? If that is the case even, I’m curious of your opinion.

Standard build for S/D is 10 30 0 30 0.
30 points in critical strikes are mandatory for dealing any sort of direct damage.
Acrobatic is better than Trickery as it boosts Initiative gain and Vigor, so you will have more dodges overall.

hihey.1075:

Standard build for S/D is 10 30 0 30 0.
30 points in critical strikes are mandatory for dealing any sort of direct damage.
Acrobatic is better than Trickery as it boosts Initiative gain and Vigor, so you will have more dodges overall.

What about large condi bombs and general sustainability? I played with 0 30 10 30 0 for a bit and struggled with fighting outnumbered due to lack of longer duration stealth + the sustain from 30 in SA

Use lyssa to negate condition bombs. You can also run with shadow step instead of sig of agility to get a fast 3 condi clear as well. S/D doesn’t work with trickery imo, stick with 10/30/0/30/0 unless you like playing a more stealthed based build (meh, not recommended).

With a non stealth build like 10/30/0/30/0, how do you approach encounters vs other thieves? Mainly d/x thieves that stealth for the majority of the time

I run 25/30/0/0/15 on my S/D setup. I used x/30/x/x/30 several months ago and I still think it’s pretty viable. I don’t like spec’ing it now since most thieves are running 30 trickery nowadays.

My condi removal is a constant upkeep of Infiltrator Return and the occasional quick Shadow Step if I need a large amount of removal. I used to run Lyssa, but I’ve moved past that to Traveler’s for the constant speed. The beauty of IS/IR is that you can find a safe spot, even sheathed, click the ground and dump initiative into spamming IS/IR to clear dangerous conditions. I find I have to do that every so often, but not generally.

well,i want to know what gear sd thief wvw.six pvc?

Sword main hand is more sustained damage and dagger main is burst style. They’re each better than the other in their own area.

dominoeffect.4216:

Although I love the trickery tree, why do people prefer a lower dps build over a more bursty type build? If that is the case even, I’m curious of your opinion.

A 10/x/x/x/30 build’s main focus is control and boon-stripping, not DPS. From experience, any profession that relies on boon are rather weak once stripped off of their boons. So as S/D, once you stripped the boons and given it to yourself and to your allies, you basically improved your own DPS by buffing yourself and de-buffing your target.

Since your focus is boon-strip, most builds choose to allocate points into SA to give them a longer staying power to maintain a boon-less target.

A DPS S/D build will always have 30pts in CS, that’s how you can tell what role the build will play.

Where does this “CS is mandatory for damage” baloney come from? The entire line only gives you ~14-15% crit chance and 30 crit damage; that’s basically ascended Berserker trinkets without the Power.

If you’re in WvW, the majority of your offensive power is coming from food and gear, not the stat bonuses on traits. Executioner is really good in terms of slottable traits, but everything else in the CS line is either replaceable or shrug-worthy.

CS has a nice initiation stats thanks to Keen Observer and First Strikes, which are bonuses that helps bringing down any target from 100% to 50% HP that can trigger Executioner and Furious Retaliation in a first few attacks. That’s why probably it is viewed as mandatory.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

CS has a nice initiation stats thanks to Keen Observer and First Strikes, which are bonuses that helps bringing down any target from 100% to 50% HP that can trigger Executioner and Furious Retaliation in a first few attacks. That’s why probably it is viewed as mandatory.

CS is nice. It is not “mandatory” unless you’re in a max-DPS build, owing to the fact that we only have two traitlines with significant direct damage in them. People wildly overestimate how much the stat bonuses actually help in PvE/WvW.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

CS has a nice initiation stats thanks to Keen Observer and First Strikes, which are bonuses that helps bringing down any target from 100% to 50% HP that can trigger Executioner and Furious Retaliation in a first few attacks. That’s why probably it is viewed as mandatory.

CS is nice. It is not “mandatory” unless you’re in a max-DPS build, owing to the fact that we only have two traitlines with significant direct damage in them. People wildly overestimate how much the stat bonuses actually help in PvE/WvW.

I took that “mandatory” comment as subjective and moved on. But I can see how they can perceive that even though it’s not entirely true.

I find Executioner less and less attractive nowadays because it does nothing if target has 51%-100% HP, so I don’t spec for it anymore. As the days goes by, I now have 0pts in CS and 30pts in Trickery.

As it should be; I haven’t been past 10 CS since prior to the December 10th patch. Unless you really need a Grandmaster trait or you’re running an on-crit build that wants Critical Haste, there’s not a whole lot of reason to go past 10 points in the line, even in a Power build. CS has 4-5 pretty strong Adept traits, but there’s a drop-off after that in terms of return.

Everyone and their mother is speccing 30 Trickery now, even in builds where the +300 Condition Damage is completely wasted, and that’s not any kind of accident.

With the upcoming balance to ’zerker and crit damage, CS is becoming more of a “meh” trait line.

hihey.1075:

30 points in critical strikes are mandatory for dealing any sort of direct damage.
Acrobatic is better than Trickery as it boosts Initiative gain and Vigor, so you will have more dodges overall.

Both of these statements are false. Objectively, CS gives you very little damage, and most of the traits are lackluster anyways for the investment that you put into the tree. I get the feeling that this idea originates from two different roots:

1. The fact that thief needs to deal high damage in order to be effective- that’s an inarguable fact.

2. The fact that most of the original thief builds (D/X builds) didn’t need to run points into SA or Acro (or not many points, anyways), nor did they need to invest much into Trix. Furthermore, the fact that most DA traits above Adept tier are useless in the vast majority of situations would make it sensible to take 30 into CS before going over 10 into DA.

For the most part, this is still true. However, there are a few builds that can get away without 30 (or, in fact, any) points into CS. Mostly, these are going to be the absolutely terrible rarely seen P/D builds and some S/D builds. S/P is very burst-oriented, so it makes sense to take 30 into CS. The same goes for D/X builds. However, S/D is different in that many if not most meta builds take 30 into Acrobatics. As a result, you have many fewer points that you can just spend going into a tree just because you can. As I stated earlier, most DA traits above Adept tier are pretty useless (especially to S/D builds), but Serpent’s Touch and Mug are both critically useful traits, and the 100 power that comes with them is extremely good as well. So that leaves over 30 points (of course, you could always be like Jumper and not invest 10 into DA, but instead invest 10 into Trix).

From the traditional point of view, 30 CS would be the way to go instantaneously. However, I’m of the mindset that the utility and additional DPS (from initiative buffs, Steal utility, and Lead Attacks) is just as good if not better than the DPS you get from CS, which, again, is relatively in the grand scheme of your total DPS. Furthermore, since S/D isn’t as much of a burst build as it is a bruiser/DPS (but not GC) build, it makes even less sense to be so dogmatic as to choose CS over Trix 100% of the time. There’s a reason why increasingly more builds nowadays are running a 10 30 0 0 30 setup no matter what weapon set is being taken. Trickery has been a highly underrated trait line for a very, very long time, and perhaps understandably so. However, in the context of how much damage you do from stats and other buffs, +300 precision, +30% Critical Damage, and Executioner really aren’t enough to say that CS is “mandatory for dealing any sort of direct damage.” If I had a video of my 10 0 0 30 30 build on me, I’d post it just to show my point, though, unfortunately, I do not have such a video at this time (though I’d gladly make one if requested).

Also, Trickery boosts initiative far more than Acro does, especially if you’re going to be running a WvW build which absolutely should not take dual S/D. If you take Hastened Replenishment (which, IMO, is a superior trait to Sleight of Hand for S/D builds), then there’s absolutely no contest; Trickery wins outright by a massive margin.

If you just hit level 80 wearing blues, greens, and rares, then the traits are your best source of improving your stats.

When you start wearing exotics and ascended items, the stats are now coming from your gears making the traits less reliable for stats improvement.

Trickery is simply the best source of initiatives.

More initiative = less downtime = more damage.

You don’t really need to get really deep into it like Arganthium.5638 did, but of course you can if you really want to. lol

^ If you just hit level 80, you have exactly one extra trait point over what you just had at level 79. The biggest improvement is going to be from upgrading your gear: going from rare to exotic across the board gives you nearly 300 points worth of extra stat budget between major/minor. Trait stat bonuses are good for uncommon or unique things, like boon duration or Steal recharge, but the Condition damage from 30 Trickery is completely dwarfed by the stat bonuses from even a full set of blues.

To the point about CS — which provides NO uncommon stats — you’re still better off fixing your gear before you gobble up the entire line and give up useful traits elsewhere in an attempt to get damage into your build. Switching to ‘zerkers from a non-crit build is better than anything you’ll get out of CS.

I’m also going to try out a Power Build instead of putting so much into CS’s now. I have on Crit Sigils so I’ll start using some Precision food and maintenance oil which should be good enough along with Furious Retaliation and Thrill of the Crime.
Against Certain Classes and builds I think it might be a good idea to spec into Shadow Arts for the Cloaked in Shadows or the Condition Cleanse, especially against those backstab thieves. Then again I have almost fully geared with PVT and Lyssa runes, so I have to Build a bit more defensive so I can then counter whenever possible.

If you are Zerging I’d suggest putting at least 20 for Bountiful Theft. I’m not sure if putting 30 into Trickery is worth it though.

If you’re already 20 points into Trickery, another 10 points is usually defensible. Lead Attacks is useful to all power-based builds, and your GM trait either gives you a nearly-unblockable interrupt (Bountiful Theft will strip Stability so that the Daze hits) with another drop in Steal recast, or some pretty decent init regain with HR if you’re rocking Withdraw as your heal.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

I’m not sure if putting 30 into Trickery is worth it though.

In my experience, the important aspect of Trickery is Cunning. +30% recharge rate to Steal allows for more Kleptomaniac, Thrill of the Crime, and Bountiful Theft (on top of the stolen items). Even moreso if you trait for Sleight of Hand, another 20% recharge reduction to Steal. You can steal every ~20s instead of every 35s.

That to me makes it well worth the 30pts.

dominoeffect.4216:

With a non stealth build like 10/30/0/30/0, how do you approach encounters vs other thieves? Mainly d/x thieves that stealth for the majority of the time

You stand just outside of the black powder and hit them until they stealth. Then you usually have more than enough evades to survive w/o getting backstabbed. Tons of dodges, flanking strike w/o a target selected, and shortbow #3 to make him miss until the stealth ends. At low skill levels d/p destroys s/d but at high skill levels they are about even.

After evading through the first stealth you should have LS ready to go. Time it right and cast it along with steal/mug to take a big chunk of his health. You can also use infiltrator’s return mid way into their stealth phase to juke them successfully.