Guild Wars 2

I’ve been enjoying sword/dagger (shortbow off) for a while now and it seems to have a particular niche as a harassment/evasion play style. It particularly does well against small groups (2-4 enemies).

Current set up uses withdraw, roll for initiative, shadow refuge, and shadow signet. I use both daggerstorm and thief guild interchangeably depending on context. Traits I use are 0/30/0/30/10, with a focus on as much crit and as many dodges as possible. Gear is a mix of power/vitality/crit damage.

Using this I put out medium-low DPS, at least compared to thief burst builds, but it completely breaks most of the glass cannon builds by having multiple ways to get away and evade incoming damage. With the auto attack cripple and dancing dagger cripple I can keep them close when I want to (and CnD to add to the confusion). Spamming DD on a group of 2 or a ranger + pet can be absurd damage and crippling duration.

The one weak spot in this build is flanking strike. The concept fits the evasive playstyle, but it’s tough to use in a moving PvP fight (and I’m certainly not the first to bring this up). One thing that I think would be fun and add to the defensive playstyle would be some sort of block ability – that after a successful block, shadowsteps you behind your target (similar to the idea of flanking strike) and perhaps? removes a boon with a dagger hit.

Overall, this has been a fun way to play a thief that I thought I’d share (as well as the flanking strike idea) since I don’t see to many posts about S/D on the forum.

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

FS is exclusively wasted ini.

I’m playing an S/D build and i ( now, after thousand of tries about choosing the build) can fight effectively against ANY class ( lol, even mesmers and guardians).

Never used FS even once.

Plus, the delay on the start of FS makes it tough to use even as a dodge. This is why I like the block idea – you can have an instant defensive button that stops your damage output, but sets you up behind target (which is what FS wants to do). As is, I never use FS either, but I do make great use of all 4 other weapon skills. Unfortunately this means that the majority of my damage comes from auto attack + DD, but I enjoy the defensive style anyways so I can’t complain

Mrbig:

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

Flanking Strike also evades. The main problem with it is just that the positioning is broken. It seems like it worked much better in beta, but right now it seems to just fling you a random distance away from the front or side of the target, often not even in melee range, when it’s supposed to put you right behind them.

thats why it should just shadowstep behind the target but still have a built in evade
I also think while keeping the same damage as it has but be more something like this:

Evade and Shadowstep behind your target to stab them in the back twice. First strike removes 1 boon. Damage on second hit increased based on number of boons the target has remaining.
Damage: 252
Second strike damage: 504
Second strike damage increase per boon remaining: 10%
Range: 130

I like the shadowstep idea. Not sure about the bonus damage. Maybe apply a random condition for each remaining boon?

I’d like the evade to stay, IF it actually begins on key press without the delay that seems to exist on the current iteration. This is why I like the block idea – it can be instant and lead to the same shadowstep to the back. Of course, the length of block would have to be short to balance it. If they could make the evade/shadowstep to the back work without any delay, I’d be fine with that as well. The nice thing is that this is the one outstanding issue with S/D, I feel the rest of the set up works fairly well.

I think the concept of FS is pretty solid, and people underestimate having a spammable boon removal, and the combined damage of the two hits is actually fairly impressive. The main issue with it, as so many people have noted, is the terrible forced positioning it does. I’d be happy if they just halved the initiative cost on it.

bwillb.2165:

Mrbig:

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

Flanking Strike also evades. The main problem with it is just that the positioning is broken. It seems like it worked much better in beta, but right now it seems to just fling you a random distance away from the front or side of the target, often not even in melee range, when it’s supposed to put you right behind them.

Yes, it does evade.

HOWEVER, the evade starts after a good delay, and your second attack is so slow that usually you take more damage than you did ( because it DOES NOT evade while dealing it).

This, along with the nice auto-facing feature aNet smartly decided to implement, makes FS totally worthless, since your enemy will follow your pathing by simply standing still and auto-attacking.

I just can’t understand why DB evades during the whole duration ( dealing about the same damage) while FS is so subpar.

I would make it like Nine Tailed strike (spear 3) but with a different variation ( it would be too good in PvE):

Flanking strike → 4 ini

Block an attack with your sword: shadowstep on your foe’s back and stab him with your dagger, leaving him [vulnerable, weakened, poisoned, boon removed…. whatever].
Gain 1 ini if you don’t block.

Block duration : 2 secs

That’s actually a pretty decent idea. Sword could use a good block.

Mrbig, that’s pretty much exactly what I was suggesting I do like the idea of having a block based ability out of water.

I think the idea of adding a block/counter-attack skill, similar to riposte, in place of flanking strike makes perfect sense. Using a weapon with a short blade in one’s offhand is historically known as the Florentine style of fencing, in which the offhand blade was used for parrying attacks and for close-quarters stabbing. This would give a nice contrast to the more offensive dagger/dagger set-up.

I realize this is wishful thinking. So, more realistically, yes I would love to see a fix to flanking strike that makes it less clunky. As is its pathing problems make it unreliable and the delay on cast is unsuitable for an evasive skill.

“Florentine style of fencing”
^ This has been my #1 inspiration for using S/D since launch.
By playing as a duelist in WvW and sPvP, the evades from FS and endurance regen from 15 points in Acrobatics makes it so that I’m rarely touched.
Problem is, FS does such little damage, that is, if you manage to land the second strike. I’ve started using FS only as a means of dodging while #1 seems to be my main source of damage (#4 tends to be my nuke if there are two targets next to each other. #5 is great for some added damage/interruptions from #1’s stealth skill). I have noticed, however, that fights tend to last too long because damage is lacking, so when cd’s have been exhausted, and the opportunity presents itself to strike hard, there really isn’t anything in this set to reliably “strike hard” with. So mid-late fight often times, is like the fight just starts back to square one.

Of course, I’m only thinking about it from a PvP standpoint so the idea of blocking might be a better concept for both PvE and PvP.

I’m much prefer Evading over Blocking for S/D. I don’t want it feeling clunky and rooted like S/P.

Dual.8953:

I’m much prefer Evading over Blocking for S/D. I don’t want it feeling clunky and rooted like S/P.

Mesmers can block while moving.

I see no problem in giving to the thief the same stuff.

I would also be fine with the evade, as long as it’s fast, reliable, and actually evades THE WHOLE duration.

Flanking Strike would be downright good if it didn’t screw up where it moved you to so much. When you get a really tightly controlled situation with it, like 1on1 vs. a mob in PvE you can see just how awesome it is in principle. It does gigantic damage and responds quickly enough that you can easily avoid getting hit at all.

If the skill worked that well all the time I think Sword+Dagger would be pretty popular. It just doesn’t work that well very much. Usually terrain issues are to blame. Sometimes its because the enemy is moving in an unpredictable way (e.g. all the time in PvP). but in any case usually you’re lucky if the attack is even able to do damage, let alone put you in a good spot when completing. Its just dysfunctional in PvP.

I think a block is a nice touch but I would still rather it just shadow step you behind the target and add a combo to it so if a field is up you are stealthed by the time you are behind them, adding fluidity.

@ Dual I have faith in A-net that they will remove the self root on PW, one way or another. Makes negative sense on a mobility dependent class.

I vote for block!! It would be awesome:) another timing ability and with a cool assassin touch^^ maybe you should repost it in suggestion:) don’t think the devs looks at the prof forum unless it is for bugs or fowl language like kittens and kitten:0

@Knyx I think it would be stupid of them to remove the root.. Ppl alrdy crying about it now sooo:/

I did cross link this into the suggestions forum a little while ago If nothing else, hopefully helps them think of ways to make FS or a replacement to work well.

What if they added a 1 second immobilization or cripple to it at the start? Or at least replace the second thrust with a wide slash? That and give full evade duration.

@ Phoenix It wouldnt be stupid. Currently the entire sword set is 66% against the root design of thief. If anything they will lower the damage on PW or nerf quickness, remove the self root and increase the attack speed on all sword attacks..

even a block is pretty much against the design of a thief. We are supposed to be dodging and evading. Blocking would naturally be the mind set of sticking around and waiting for the hit instead of dodging when we are supposed to be a; get in and get out class

The current sword set for theif is like if they gave Warrior a weapon set that attacked quick and gave them shadow step or acrobatic dodge abilities. With sword as it is #2 is the only one that actually fits for thief, the others feel like they were designed by someone that thought they were designing it for a brawler, punching bag class.

When I was thinking of block, I was thematically envisioning it as a parry/riposte and follow through, which would fit a swashbuckling rogue/thief archetype fairly well. A pure block like a warriors would feel a bit odd, that is true.

I would also like the #1 attack to be sped up, even at the cost of reduced damage per hit. Feels lethargic compared to the other weapons.

Cufflink.3985:

When I was thinking of block, I was thematically envisioning it as a parry/riposte and follow through, which would fit a swashbuckling rogue/thief archetype fairly well. A pure block like a warriors would feel a bit odd, that is true.

I would also like the #1 attack to be sped up, even at the cost of reduced damage per hit. Feels lethargic compared to the other weapons.

Well I have been making threads asking to speed up the sword hits on #1 and PW. As well as removing the self root. I think the self root is the biggest issue and needs to go, as for speeding up the attacks: I think this would be perfectly balanced as long as something is done about quickness for every class.

It may be a parry or reposite for all intents and purposes but its still a block in the game. The only way I can see it making sense with our class is if its activated and not channeled so it would be more like having an ability that instantly gave you aegis. With the other Warrior/Guardian-ish block abilities you can’t just sit there and use other abilities while its doing the channel, if we had one, we would need to be able to use other abilities.

@Knyx not letting me quote, these forums are weird sometimes. If they were to speed up and remove the root on Pistol Whip then they definitely need to lower the damage, personally I’d be happy with the change. It’d be less burst damage but more reliable I think.

I suggested they make FS a shadow step behind a while back as well, just make the first attack an evasive attack then shadow step behind. I wish they would do this or at least add immobilize to the first hit of FS as Dual suggested, it would at least be a decent band-aid. With that they still need to make it dodge during the entire spin animation. Another issue I have with it is it feels clunky, you can’t really use it as a reactionary dodge due to it not cancelling out your current attack and the start up of it not actually dodging anything. Perhaps if sword #1 was faster it wouldn’t be quite as bad, but they would have to reduce the damage on it. Personally I dislike the idea of parry/block it could be too abusable with our imitative, I mean look at Nine-Tail Strike underwater.

KaiserCX.7103:

@Knyx not letting me quote, these forums are weird sometimes. If they were to speed up and remove the root on Pistol Whip then they definitely need to lower the damage, personally I’d be happy with the change. It’d be less burst damage but more reliable I think.

I suggested they make FS a shadow step behind a while back as well, just make the first attack an evasive attack then shadow step behind. I wish they would do this or at least add immobilize to the first hit of FS as Dual suggested, it would at least be a decent band-aid. With that they still need to make it dodge during the entire spin animation. Another issue I have with it is it feels clunky, you can’t really use it as a reactionary dodge due to it not cancelling out your current attack and the start up of it not actually dodging anything. Perhaps if sword #1 was faster it wouldn’t be quite as bad, but they would have to reduce the damage on it. Personally I dislike the idea of parry/block it could be too abusable with our imitative, I mean look at Nine-Tail Strike underwater.

Well the fix that I am sure is coming for quickness across the board of all classes, I don’t think a damage reduction will be needed on Pistol whip or any sword abilities with the removal self root and quickened attack times

Knyx.5926:

KaiserCX.7103:

@Knyx not letting me quote, these forums are weird sometimes. If they were to speed up and remove the root on Pistol Whip then they definitely need to lower the damage, personally I’d be happy with the change. It’d be less burst damage but more reliable I think.

I suggested they make FS a shadow step behind a while back as well, just make the first attack an evasive attack then shadow step behind. I wish they would do this or at least add immobilize to the first hit of FS as Dual suggested, it would at least be a decent band-aid. With that they still need to make it dodge during the entire spin animation. Another issue I have with it is it feels clunky, you can’t really use it as a reactionary dodge due to it not cancelling out your current attack and the start up of it not actually dodging anything. Perhaps if sword #1 was faster it wouldn’t be quite as bad, but they would have to reduce the damage on it. Personally I dislike the idea of parry/block it could be too abusable with our imitative, I mean look at Nine-Tail Strike underwater.

Well the fix that I am sure is coming for quickness across the board of all classes, I don’t think a damage reduction will be needed on Pistol whip or any sword abilities with the removal self root and quickened attack times

I don’t really see quickness as a problem. Probably because i’m playing the classes with teleports ( ele, thief, mesmer), but a simple stunbreaker will totally void all those “haste spammers” efforts.

The only thing the sword needs is a good redesign of FS, nothing more.

Mrbig.8019:

I don’t really see quickness as a problem. Probably because i’m playing the classes with teleports ( ele, thief, mesmer), but a simple stunbreaker will totally void all those “haste spammers” efforts.

The only thing the sword needs is a good redesign of FS, nothing more.

Agreed. Even if the opponent is standing still, or moving, FS is a total random strike. The animation mechanism is broken to the core , when i hit #3 , FS sending me to nowhere

Mrbig.8019:

The sad part is that in PvP there’s no reason to use FS instead of C&D: easier to get, faster animation( it actually HITS, i would like FS to do the same), tactical advantage ( stealth), more utility ( FS removes a boon, JEZUZ ITS AWSUM -.-’’) and about the same damage.

FS is exclusively wasted ini.

I’m playing an S/D build and i ( now, after thousand of tries about choosing the build) can fight effectively against ANY class ( lol, even mesmers and guardians).

Never used FS even once.

That boon removal is the difference between you and your buddy blowing up that bunker guardian/ele or having a drawn out fight (stripping regeneration or protection). Or how about fighting those guys with insane might stacking…stripping that off makes them hit like a wet noodle. A player that thinks in extremes is one with poor judgement.

In effect, if you aren’t using the one mechanic that makes S/D special beyond any other class (spammable boon stripping) at all, you’re only playing half the build.

This is the Thief board, not the Necro board. This is way back from the first month after launch.

Better than starting a new thread…..