Guild Wars 2

I’ve played S/D for about a year now across multiple builds (2/0/6/0/6) (2/6/0/0/6) and lastly (2/0/0/6/6) over the past year. I and a few others were some of the few thieves to break from the D/P meta (PVP) and P/D meta (WVW) to use S/D, but over the past few months (following the buff of strength runes and the use of air fire sigils in combination) S/D worked its way into the PVP meta and became a very strong and in the right hands overpowered, but why do you think this is? sword dagger has only been nerfed since release this includes: the infiltrators return range reduction, removal of its stunbreak, dancing daggers damage nerfed into oblivion, and larcenous strikes boon strip cut down by 2, ( the one exception being the introduction of larcenous strike ) but only now in its weakest state has it has become this taboo weapon set that everybody complains about?

The reason isn’t because sword dagger is over powered, but rather because of air fire sigils, strength runes, and its synergy with the acrobatics traitline — for those of you who dont know when traited you can get a stack of might per dodge, and with strength runes, boon strips, and the amount of dodging you can do with acrobatics you can get an insane amount of might and do ridiculous damage and have great sustainability without having to trait anything into a power, precision / ferocity trait line. The weapon set sword dagger should not be the thing that is getting addressed, it should be the acrobatics traitline (feline grace, power of inertia, fluid strikes) as well as the damage done by air and fire sigils.
The issue with this unjustified nerf, and the reason I believe it to be weapon set breaking is that against players who know how flanking strike functions all that they need to do is dodge or blind or block flanking strike. this highly decreases sword daggers burst potential as it can be very difficult to land a flanking strike and costs far too much initiative to risk having be avoided. But the biggest problem with the way it is presently, is that sword dagger can no longer truley utilize the unblockable function of larcenous strike as flanking will no longer proc on block. For example, an engineer activates his tool kit block, previously we could use flanking to gain larcenous strike and hit him through his block but now if flanking strike is used on the block it will be rendered useless and no larcenous strike shall be awarded. Another huge issue is our ability to steal aegis.
Meditations guardians, arguably one of thieves biggest counters with the great amount of blinds and blocks they receive from profession abilities. And with renewed focus being changed into a meditation the amount of aegis and blinds they can dish out has been greatly increased, they will no longer be feasible to defeat as a thief even with sword dagger (as we can no longer precast larcenous — flanking strike would proc the aegis and require us to do another flanking strike to finally gain a larcenous strike thats 9 initiative to do btw).

To clarify what would need to happen for us to utilize the unblockable ability of larcenous strike is a flanking strike would have to land and then have an aegis or block come up within the next 4 seconds ( presuming we havent already tried to use larcenous strike ) for this to happen realistically two things would need to happen
1. The opponent to not understand how sword dagger functions
2. The thief would need to anticipate within four seconds of when a block or aegis would be used and land a flanking strike within that time period.
Am I crazy or does that not seem realistic?
If your still with me lets think about what we can do to fix sword dagger.
1. Revert it back to the way it was before, back to the state where it is actually fills it role of killing boon or block heavy classes ( elementalists, guardians, engies)
2. Leave the way flanking functions the way it is but increase the time you can use larcenous for after getting a successful hit, since it takes nothing short of a miracle to land now. increase boon strip back to 2 and allow it to proc on blocks so that you can still actually use it to hit through things like toolkit shield, shelter, arcane shield ect.

either of these changes i believe ( with the nerf of the acrobatics traitline ) would put sword dagger back into its place of being viable but not overpowered.

Thanks for reading — Katsumi Arisu

P.S. You may not agree with my opinions but trolls if you could stay under your bridge I would highly appreciate it.

+1
#Revert
/15char

They took a very fun to play build that has a very high skillcap and made it unplayable. The utility brought from flanking/larcenous strikes made the weapon set worth playing. Sword’s damage now comes solely from its autoattack, and what is the fun of that kind of playstyle?

I loved S/D, I have been playing it for a long while now and I always thought of it as the most fluid weapon set that required finesse to play. However, now it’s just been crippled and made into a clunky unreliable set.

FZeroWing.2098:

I loved S/D, I have been playing it for a long while now and I always thought of it as the most fluid weapon set that required finesse to play. However, now it’s just been crippled and made into a clunky unreliable set.

Agreed, there is really no reason to play it anymore considering its main utility came from larcenous strike being an unblockable boon strip, but since flanking isnt a guaranteed proc and can be blocked blinded or evaded it is far to unreliable for competitive play.
If Anet wants to protect build and playstyle diversity they need to address these changes.

Very well said Kat, unfortunately , despite claiming it time and time again, the devs do not listen to us .

I hate all of these stupid nerfs. I can’t even believe I wasted playing the thief for 2 years. I would like to sell off my quip seeing as its useless in every build now. Also every other zerker combination is trash.

+1
#Revert
/15char

I completely agree with this post. The issue was not with the weapon set it was with the acrobatics trait line. Moreover, the proc of sigils of air and fire makes the lack of contribution to damage viable which made s/d broken.

Instead of fixing something that is clearly broken, you trashed a viable weapon set that rewards skill play? Really questionable decision there anet

+1
#Revert
/15char

why not just keep the init change, and revert the hit to larcy. that would reduce some spam to an extent. Idk if im right about anything, but s/d right now feels very broken.

i agree completely, imo anet was lazy when they did this nerf, the nerfed the weapon set (which did not need to be nerfed) but ignored the real problem. They just made an entire weapon set unplayable for pvp and a lot of theives ik are quiting the game bc of it. This sucks, plox fix
p.s. i hate s/d theives before patch but i did not want them to be removed from the game, this is bad decision

The change was for the most part justified. While it makes no sense that FS be blockable and LS be unblockable while requiring FS to hit, I think having the requirement of FS hitting is a good thing to help level out the damage of the set. I didn’t really have much of al issue with S/D until the 2/0/0/6/6 Strength Rune Air/Fire Sigil meta, in that it allowed far too much damage for the amount of survivability that acro/trickery together allowed when paired with S/D.

The only other thing I’d like to mention is that even with all this “S/D and D/P unplayable so bad not viable” talk that is around, how do you think it is for people who prefer S/P, which was already borderline unviable before the patch. S/D and D/P still have it easy compared to S/P – just food for thought.

Anet destroyed an entire weapon set and a playstyle. Im happy it’s nerfed but revert it with a more appropriate nerf anet u fkenbads

ZvolTx.3165:

The change was for the most part justified. While it makes no sense that FS be blockable and LS be unblockable while requiring FS to hit, I think having the requirement of FS hitting is a good thing to help level out the damage of the set. I didn’t really have much of al issue with S/D until the 2/0/0/6/6 Strength Rune Air/Fire Sigil meta, in that it allowed far too much damage for the amount of survivability that acro/trickery together allowed when paired with S/D.

The only other thing I’d like to mention is that even with all this “S/D and D/P unplayable so bad not viable” talk that is around, how do you think it is for people who prefer S/P, which was already borderline unviable before the patch. S/D and D/P still have it easy compared to S/P – just food for thought.

Unfortunately in pvp the majority of S/D damage comes from larcenous strike since cloak and daggers damage is cut by around 50%. I agree with what you said about the fire air strength runes as i said earlier in my post. The issue with requiring a proc to hit is that the initiative cost is too high for the risk of missing a flanking, and when you consider our damage modifier from trickery ( 1% more damage for each initiative we have ) the weapon set is severely lacking in terms of dps making it not viable for competitive play.

Regarding S/P — Pistol whip’s initiative cost was only increased by 1, the reason why it isn’t used anymore is because it is in my opinion far to clunky a weapon set and the fact that pistol whip is a stillcast makes it difficult to land damage. I would love for arenanet to fix the issue of stillcasting , if they did the weaponset might actually be enjoyable to play. perhaps breaking the stun and the slash into two seperate skills?

Honestly I’m not entirely sure how they SHOULD have gone about with balancing, and I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on such either, but I think a better way to deal with the problem could have been through changes to air/fire when used in conjunction. Say they have their respective ICDs when used alone, but when used together they both have non-shared ICDs of around 10 seconds. It would mean that you would have less sustained damage increase through procs (3 air price per 9 seconds yields higher overall damage than 1 air + 1 fire every 10 seconds) but still allow for the small burst. Aside from that the only thing I could see is the removal of Strength runes from PvP. I think both those changes in conjunction would still allow a retaining of viability, but it would tone down the builds that abuse them for both high sustain, survival, and damage.

As for S/P, I’ve mained it since release and it is by far my favorite weapon set in the game, but the talk a while back of separating the stun from the flurry (such as how FS+LS are) would do a lot to help the set. It would really allow for setting up bursts better and just higher versatility and skill cap of the set to really allow for some combos that just aren’t possible now.

Not that I’m contributing anything constructive to the conversation, but isn’t it awesome that every skill on s/d has been nerfed in one form or another? Except the auto-attack chain.

Though I’m pretty sure they almost did. It was during the patch from when they changed up Weakness. Give it time…they’ll get to it.

ZvolTx.3165:

The change was for the most part justified. While it makes no sense that FS be blockable and LS be unblockable while requiring FS to hit, I think having the requirement of FS hitting is a good thing to help level out the damage of the set.

I’’ll agree that this change puts counter play to flanking strike. I understand this change makes landing larcenous burst harder, but not impossible. You just have to adapt and wait out the dodges.

With the recent changes to warrior, they changed the way adrenaline works with burst skills. If you missed a burst skill your adrenaline gets depleted! Why do you think they did this? To add counter play to successfully dodging that burst, and punish that player for not timing or counting dodges. Why do you think they nerfed Ride the Lightning on Elementalist? Their mobility was on such a low c/d and had no punishment, and that change was to justify wiser usage of the skill whether to engage or disengage. Same with flanking strike, why should you get unpunished for when a guy dodges, uses a block/aegis/ or successfully blinds you. It’s is unfair for someone who anticipated your flanking strike while you didn’t anticipate what they did to avoid it.

You have ways of taking off aegis off a guard, and not by only using flanking strike.
You have auto attacks and dancing dagger to remove aegis, and even with this change you still have same endurance regeneration with normal dodges to dodge certain things. Compared to thief specs and other professions that don’t have the same amount of endurance/dodges, you have way ton endurance to actually dodge things you need to dodge. As for being blinded, maybe don’t use flanking to try to proc your larcenous, clear with an auto or dancing dagger.

I agree with your suggestions about increasing larcenous duration so that you are more rewarded for landing flanking. I agree with reverting the 2 boon strip to larcenous with initiative changes so you aren’t able to abuse it, but as for flanking strike being able to be blocked it is part of counter play issues. This goes to when they removed stun break on Sword 2, and added a cast time to infiltrators return. The guy successfully stuns you, but before that nerf you were able to Sword 2 back with no penalty, no counter play for the S/D. The thing with S/D is that it overrides Z-Axis, and that it used to not be punished by bad positioning. Though this is different from the flanking strike changes, it just adds on to why things need counter play.

I play thief and I have played S/D, and I agree that it needed more counter play while maintaining its fluidity. I also play the other 7 professions, so I know how it feels on those classes when fighting a S/D thief.

I don’t want Sword/Dagger to be unplayable, and I know it can still work it is just harder with more adaptation. I know Sword/Dagger is supposed to take out boon heavy/block classes, but not without being punished and with counter play at least. I know most people won’t agree with me, but also take feedback from people who play other professions/multi classers. You have to agree that things need counter play, and not such one sided things. Like I said, things get nerfed, but people adapt. It hasn’t been a week yet, and people see changes, and do not adapt. D/P #5 is changed, but it doesn’t make the weaponset dead. You work around it, and adapt. Same with S/D, flanking strike/larcenous was nerfed, but adapt find different ways to set up new combos. Count dodges, maybe learn more about other classes so you can anticipate things, be patient and use cool downs/dodges accordingly.

These are my thoughts on the change,

Marvin

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Same with flanking strike, why should you get unpunished for when a guy dodges, uses a block/aegis/ or successfully blinds you. It’s is unfair for someone who anticipated your flanking strike while you didn’t anticipate what they did to avoid it.

Dodge, maybe, but the previous version of FS=>LS was Unblockable for 2/3 of the damage and the boon steal part. Now with that change, for all purposes you can consider the whole skill to having lost it’s Unblockable part.

The skill wasn’t meant to be countered by block/aegis before and now it is! This is a plain and simple nerf and not adding counterplay.

stof.9341:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Same with flanking strike, why should you get unpunished for when a guy dodges, uses a block/aegis/ or successfully blinds you. It’s is unfair for someone who anticipated your flanking strike while you didn’t anticipate what they did to avoid it.

Dodge, maybe, but the previous version of FS=>LS was Unblockable for 2/3 of the damage and the boon steal part. Now with that change, for all purposes you can consider the whole skill to having lost it’s Unblockable part.

The skill wasn’t meant to be countered by block/aegis before and now it is! This is a plain and simple nerf and not adding counterplay.

Flanking strike never had an unblock able portion, only the skill “Larcenous Strike” did.
Only Larcenous Strike would hit through a block/aegis, while Flanking evaded and took off aegis/not unblockable.
If they let F1 on Warriors Hammer/Axe/Mace be blocked/hit aegis, but not have their adrenaline depleted, where is the punishment? The counter play to blocking the F1? No benefit.

Same goes to blocking/using aegis on Flanking strike. Counter Play It prevents them from setting up their burst. Same with using blocks/aegis to interrupt a different type of burst. Should someone not get punished for not landing/being able to set up burst. But really if you miss a burst you either:

A: Didn’t count dodges
B: Didn’t anticipate the anti-burst
C: Both of the Above, mostly being impatient.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Flanking strike never had an unblock able portion, only the skill “Larcenous Strike” did.
Only Larcenous Strike would hit through a block/aegis, while Flanking evaded and took off aegis/not unblockable.

I said : “the previous version of FS=>LS was Unblockable for 2/3 of the damage and the boon steal part”

66% of the damage was Unblockable. Now, technically, 0% of the damage is Unblockable. This is a nerf. Do you dispute that?

And anyway, there was already plenty of counterplay in LS/FS before! You had a HUGE telegraph in LS that warned you that FS was coming so you could be ready to dodge the later.

No, the only reason why this change was done was to prevent thieves from precasting LS and opening a fight with FS. There were a lot of ways to prevent that without gutting the viability of the skill.

stof.9341:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Flanking strike never had an unblock able portion, only the skill “Larcenous Strike” did.
Only Larcenous Strike would hit through a block/aegis, while Flanking evaded and took off aegis/not unblockable.

I said : “the previous version of FS=>LS was Unblockable for 2/3 of the damage and the boon steal part”

66% of the damage was Unblockable. Now, technically, 0% of the damage is Unblockable. This is a nerf. Do you dispute that?

I know it is a nerf, I don’t dispute that part. I do dispute that you said that this change doesn’t bring counterplay. Do you dispute that flanking strike shouldn’t be unpunished if not landed correctly. Larcenous is unblockable, and flanking should have some counter play by being able to time your block/aegis against it. So you can say flanking is 0% unblockable now, but not larcenous it has always been 100% unblockable. Sure having flanking strike being blocked/hit aegis and not turning into larcenous is a nerf, but in reality this was needed as it is only fair.

And anyway, there was already plenty of counterplay in LS/FS before! You had a HUGE telegraph in LS that warned you that FS was coming so you could be ready to dodge the later.

You seem to forget that all the other classes/non S/D thieves don’t have as many dodges as S/D Thieves. They can have ever so many dodges…where is the counter play to excessive amounts of dodging, especially when mesmers have to deal with that. Especially with no sign on when steal is about to come up, and you can set up unblockable larcenous with no telegraph on the steal, since steal has no cast time.

A lot of people can agree this is part of counter play, and a lot of people who are strung onto to s/d so much will disagree. Same with Warriors who didn’t like the adrenaline changes, but there are warriors who adapt, and same with thieves. Then again it really is A-net for not testing out their changes. Anyways it is late, around 2:38 AM, so my mind needs to rest. Katsumi posted this in the PvP Section, where people other than thieves have insight on the changes. We’ll see later on, and i’ll continue to bring more attention to this situation.

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

I actually don’t agree with this. Yes s/d has dodges but what’s the point in just spam dodging when you can’t really dps anyone? They made it unviable in high tier play and almost as equal in low tier. I never agree with what anet does to thief but I usually never say anything about it, but this change is legit idiotic. Like I’ve mained s/d through every single nerf yet this one just makes it unplayable and not enjoyable. If you don’t agree with me that’s fine but if you lose to an s/d thief post patch it’s a simple l2p issue.

This nerf is so bad.. I mean were they stoned when they thought of this nerf? The whole purpose of S/D build is that u can do dmg through a block. Anet please, think b4 u act.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

well I read all your comments marvin and you have some valid points but you talk a lot about counter play and dodging flanking strike, but why couldn’t you just dodge larcenous itself? it’s pretty obvious (to me at least) when you see a thief setup a larcenous burst. if they pre flanking and start to cast a larcenous at distance what do you think they are going to do? It would be more of an issue if it could be set up from stealth but considering the only one long enough is from refuge i don’t think its much of an issue. you also say bait out their dodges before going in for a flanking. okay but with what? I think it takes and s/d thief to understand that its not as simple as that when you have to wait on your main source of dps. And regarding aegis, whats the point of an unblockable boon strip weapon set if you can’t do just that.

anyways the idea of a burst class is to have spike damage which the set doesn’t offer any more with the inability to do a steal larcenous. cloak and daggers damage is a joke compared to the burst potential of d/p maybe i’m just tired but I really don’t get whats so complicated about that

Amonatory.2453:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

I actually don’t agree with this. Yes s/d has dodges but what’s the point in just spam dodging when you can’t really dps anyone? They made it unviable in high tier play and almost as equal in low tier. I never agree with what anet does to thief but I usually never say anything about it, but this change is legit idiotic. Like I’ve mained s/d through every single nerf yet this one just makes it unplayable and not enjoyable. If you don’t agree with me that’s fine but if you lose to an s/d thief post patch it’s a simple l2p issue.

I know you’ve played thief as long Katsumi has, and I dont’ agree with what anet does sometimes, but you can still do damage just in a different way. This change was just making it a higher skill cap to land that steal+larcenous now. I don’t want s/d to rot, and you can’t say it’s a L2P issue. Tell that to a Shatter Mesmer who can’t just L2P, any good S/D thief vs a Shatter Mesmer will completely shut them down. Especially in high tier play, they get shut down, and the Mesmer can’t do anything. If I lose to an s/d thief it means they used a different way to land their burst that is. Which I think s/d is still viable, just harder to play and needs more thought to use. I’m not against nerfing the spec to the ground, but really this change was needed.

Anonymouse.4760:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

well I read all your comments marvin and you have some valid points but you talk a lot about counter play and dodging flanking strike, but why couldn’t you just dodge larcenous itself? it’s pretty obvious (to me at least) when you see a thief setup a larcenous burst. if they pre flanking and start to cast a larcenous at distance what do you think they are going to do? It would be more of an issue if it could be set up from stealth but considering the only one long enough is from refuge i don’t think its much of an issue. you also say bait out their dodges before going in for a flanking. okay but with what? I think it takes and s/d thief to understand that its not as simple as that when you have to wait on your main source of dps. And regarding aegis, whats the point of an unblockable boon strip weapon set if you can’t do just that.

anyways the idea of a burst class is to have spike damage which the set doesn’t offer any more with the inability to do a steal larcenous. cloak and daggers damage is a joke compared to the burst potential of d/p maybe i’m just tired but I really don’t get whats so complicated about that

I talk about counter play and flanking, because that was point of the flanking strike change. To be able to stop someone from setting up their burst by successfully blocking. Sure I can just dodge the larcenous, but most larcenous combos revolve around steal/infiltrators signet. Also why should I burn a dodge, when I should be able to prevent that burst from coming up. Same with interrupting let’s say insta cast mantras on mesmer. Why should I have burn a dodge on a mantra, when I can interupt their cast/just block or aegis if possible. Why should I have to burn a dodge on warrior adrenaline burst skills, when I can just block/aegis. Steal has no cast time, and with the limited dodges we can ever so have, and the amount of time you can get steal back (21 second c/d). In a mesmers perspective they get shut down. Anyways I have school, best post more thoughts in other thread to get more attention to this thread.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

I talk about counter play and flanking, because that was point of the flanking strike change. To be able to stop someone from setting up their burst by successfully blocking. Sure I can just dodge the larcenous, but most larcenous combos revolve around steal/infiltrators signet. That have no cast time, and with the limited dodges we can ever so have, and the amount of time you can get steal back (21 second c/d). In a mesmers perspective they get shut down. Anyways I have school, best post more thoughts in other thread to get more attention to this thread.

So, you seriously don’t have a problem with an Unblockable skill countered by blocks?

I’m pretty sure this change has nothing to do with allowing people to block an unblockable skill but to prevent thieves from precasting LS so that they can combo Steal and FS as an opener.

It has nothing to do with allowing you to dodge FS since you could just dodge it already and FS was a pretty big cue that a FS was coming.

The shame is that the way ANet prevented that, they gutted the whole skill and the whole weapon set in the process :o Suggested change : LS can combo into FS on a hit or on a block/evade/invulnerable. Only a miss because there was nothing in range will prevent the combo. There is a precedent for such behavior : the #1 skills chain even when you hit an invulnerable target.

Anet just loves buffing meta and condi builds, while fun and hard to play builds like S/D are getting nerfed… They should listen more to the PVP community cuz it´s getting harder and harder to have fun playing with thief nowadays.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

Amonatory.2453:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

stof.9341:

I didn’t say this change doesn’t bring counterplay. I said that Unblockable skills weren’t meant to be counterplayed by block/aegis in the first place. But now, since you cannot chain into LS, they are.

The only unblockable skill is Larcenous, and that isn’t counterplayed by block/aegis. Flanking strike was always blockable/though didn’t stop it from turning into Larcenous pre-patch. Since Flanking isn’t Unblockable it should have means of being counterplayed by a block, also meaning aegis which counts as a block. What i’m saying is that this change with block/aegis just prevented you from setting up the Larcenous, which was needed to reward people who blocked/casted aegis to avoid a follow up burst. Thieves still have crazy initiative regen now that they boosted it to 1 second, and with the amount of dodges a S/D thief has, i’m pretty sure the initiative cost will come back due to how much you can kite away. I do agree it sucks that you can’t steal+larcenous, but being able to set that up with no punishment or a way to prevent the larcenous needed a change. Ok i’m off, checking back up on this tomorrow.

I actually don’t agree with this. Yes s/d has dodges but what’s the point in just spam dodging when you can’t really dps anyone? They made it unviable in high tier play and almost as equal in low tier. I never agree with what anet does to thief but I usually never say anything about it, but this change is legit idiotic. Like I’ve mained s/d through every single nerf yet this one just makes it unplayable and not enjoyable. If you don’t agree with me that’s fine but if you lose to an s/d thief post patch it’s a simple l2p issue.

I know you’ve played thief as long Katsumi has, and I dont’ agree with what anet does sometimes, but you can still do damage just in a different way. This change was just making it a higher skill cap to land that steal+larcenous now. I don’t want s/d to rot, and you can’t say it’s a L2P issue. Tell that to a Shatter Mesmer who can’t just L2P, any good S/D thief vs a Shatter Mesmer will completely shut them down. Especially in high tier play, they get shut down, and the Mesmer can’t do anything. If I lose to an s/d thief it means they used a different way to land their burst that is. Which I think s/d is still viable, just harder to play and needs more thought to use. I’m not against nerfing the spec to the ground, but really this change was needed.

I honestly don’t know why you’re defending this nerf. I’ll explain how bad it is, I have 100 hours on shatter Mesmer and with the new patch I beat every s/d thief because it’s terrible, d/p I can still struggle with because so much stealth but that’s the mechanic. I even played shatter before this patch and beat s/d thieves all the time and you know why? Because I mained s/d longer than just about anyone still playing the game and I know the ins and outs, sure shatter mes lost to thief a lot but why shouldn’kitten I mean now every class that blocks blinds and has aegis counters s/d now which is stupid. I say revert the change and keep 4 initiative for FS and make larc 2 and we’d be Esports yo.

stof.9341:

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

I talk about counter play and flanking, because that was point of the flanking strike change. To be able to stop someone from setting up their burst by successfully blocking. Sure I can just dodge the larcenous, but most larcenous combos revolve around steal/infiltrators signet. That have no cast time, and with the limited dodges we can ever so have, and the amount of time you can get steal back (21 second c/d). In a mesmers perspective they get shut down. Anyways I have school, best post more thoughts in other thread to get more attention to this thread.

So, you seriously don’t have a problem with an Unblockable skill countered by blocks?

I’m pretty sure this change has nothing to do with allowing people to block an unblockable skill but to prevent thieves from precasting LS so that they can combo Steal and FS as an opener.

It has nothing to do with allowing you to dodge FS since you could just dodge it already and FS was a pretty big cue that a FS was coming.

The shame is that the way ANet prevented that, they gutted the whole skill and the whole weapon set in the process :o Suggested change : LS can combo into FS on a hit or on a block/evade/invulnerable. Only a miss because there was nothing in range will prevent the combo. There is a precedent for such behavior : the #1 skills chain even when you hit an invulnerable target.

Stof pretty much hits the nail on the head here, but i’d like to add that mantras and adrenaline skills are very different from a thief’s steal burst and aren’t good examples. Also it’s not as if when used in combination with steal / infiltrators the combo is instant, when you see them wind up for a steal larc at range dodging that is devastating for trickery thieves as I know that you know.

Larcenous has such a long cast that unless out of endurance no one should have trouble dodging it ever . It was already telegraphed with a little sign flashing above the thief saying that he has larcenous set up which is all the counter play anyone could ever need because it basically had the thief tell you " HEY DUDE i have that boon steal thingy up better get your dodges ready".

Out of all the stuff out there , like …..engi burn proc on crit which doesn’t have a tell or Necro’s reaper protection etc.. its quite interesting that they thought this was what needed a counter play ( it had one , a BIG one already ).

If they really had to nerf it to please the cry babies what they could have done was decrease the amount of time you could have larcenous up, it was 3 sec i believe reduce it to 2 , anything but what they have done really , they just turned flanking into spammy clunky skill ( which will get nerfed again btw after thieves start using it as a mean to evade more ).

This was a non issue and the change wasn’t thought through, the end.

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Larcenous has such a long cast that unless out of endurance no one should have trouble dodging it ever . It was already telegraphed with a little sign flashing above the thief saying that he has larcenous set up which is all the counter play anyone could ever need because it basically had the thief tell you " HEY DUDE i have that boon steal thingy up better get your dodges ready".

Out of all the stuff out there , like …..engi burn proc on crit which doesn’t have a tell or Necro’s reaper protection etc.. its quite interesting that they thought this was what needed a counter play ( it had one , a BIG one already ).

If they really had to nerf it to please the cry babies what they could have done was decrease the amount of time you could have larcenous up, it was 3 sec i believe reduce it to 2 , anything but what they have done really , they just turned flanking into spammy clunky skill ( which will get nerfed again btw after thieves start using it as a mean to evade more ).

This was a non issue and the change wasn’t thought through, the end.

^ this +1 though if they wanted to be thorough and address the real issue they could just nerf the acrobatics trait line but that wouldn’t please the whiners

I main mesmer and don’t know that much about thief (still playing/learning), but in reading through this, I totally get LS shouldn’t be available if FS fails via blind/evade/invuln, but I do think a block should open up LS. You at least made contact with something but didn’t do damage to the opponent.

+1
#Revert
/15char

+1
#Revert
/15char

+1
#Revert
/15char

Amonatory.2453:

I honestly don’t know why you’re defending this nerf. I’ll explain how bad it is, I have 100 hours on shatter Mesmer and with the new patch I beat every s/d thief because it’s terrible, d/p I can still struggle with because so much stealth but that’s the mechanic. I even played shatter before this patch and beat s/d thieves all the time and you know why? Because I mained s/d longer than just about anyone still playing the game and I know the ins and outs, sure shatter mes lost to thief a lot but why shouldn’kitten I mean now every class that blocks blinds and has aegis counters s/d now which is stupid. I say revert the change and keep 4 initiative for FS and make larc 2 and we’d be Esports yo.

You said you played shatter before this patch, and beat S/D Thieves all the time. Sure you can have full knowledge of how it works, but out of most of those S/D Thieves have you fought a decent/someone that is actually good? Have you fought Katsumi/Hitzer/Mccabe/Edison/Any other thief who knows how to use S/D well. In a best out of 10 duel, even if you know the mechanics of S/D. As 100 Hour Shatter Mesmer, that isn’t enough to say you can beat Good S/D Thieves most of the time. For a Shatter Mesmer to even land any burst is extreme timing of shatters and dazes. After patch of course it is easier to fight S/D, because they can’t open up with Larcenous or have it on demand. So mesmers can actually dodge and not worry about trying to keep dodging to avoid the next larcenous. Why you say i’m defending this change? Katsumi asked me to look at the thread, I feel bad that you guys have to go through this, but i’ll offer my thoughts on how to change it so i’m not fully defending Flanking Strike not being able to proc through block/aegis.

Here are my thoughts as posted in the PvP section of the thread:

This change is what would be fine, except when you hit a block/aegis the Larcenous should require an extra initiative compared to hitting a flanking strike that isn’t blocked. Larcenous duration after Flanking Strike if blocked should be shorter than landing Flanking Strike through a non block. Like if you land Flanking through a block, the larcenous duration is really short, if you actually get it off it is a bit longer to compensate. They can bring back the boon strip back to 2, but leave the dodge/blind maybe to compensate for atleast some counterplay as for say Mesmers/Other Professions that get countered by S/D, while being able to still have a chance to hit through blocks when fighting a meditation guard. Because if they revert everything without counterplay, then Mesmers/Any Vulnerable Zerk Class will just get trained and melt. Increasing Larcenous initiative to 2, but being able to proc it without hitting a target won’t change the issue.

So yeah after rethinking about it, Flanking should be able to hit through block/aegis, but should still not turn into Larcenous if dodge/blinded/or doesn’t hit a target. Duration of Larcenous should be affected if it gets blocked or not. 2 boon strip can come back with these changes.

So if you dont’ agree with dodge/blind part, then I don’t know what to say if you can’t adapt to those changes, and live without being able to preset Larcenous.
I agree changes to the weaponset hit it hard, and it is really fire/air sigils/strenghth runes and power of inertia/Trickery+Acrobatics Traitline. But we’re lucky that Anet hasnt’ completely trashed the class, because when they do touch Trickey/Acro, YOU KNOW they will mess something up. Then again they don’t change/test anything even after 6 months.

TheThiefMaster.3812:

Larcenous has such a long cast that unless out of endurance no one should have trouble dodging it ever

Out of all the stuff out there , like …..engi burn proc on crit which doesn’t have a tell or Necro’s reaper protection etc.. its quite interesting that they thought this was what needed a counter play ( it had one , a BIG one already ).

Sure Larcenous and Flanking have the biggest tells, but not every profession has nearly unlimited dodges. I’m rethought and Flanking should be able to hit through block/aegis, but with anyone who has no dodges after being exhausted out, you know its coming though you can’t do anything to dodge. So Flanking > Block/Aegis yes, and Flanking >Dodge/Blinded/Not hitting anything no.
As for Engi, it really is Incinerating Powder, and yes it needs a tell..just you know A-net never fixes anything in time. Necro for sure needs to have it’s insta cast, and RNG fears fixed. The marks have no hovering cast to show when they’re going to pop. DS fear has no telegraph. Same with Scepter/X Fresh Air, the Air Swap has no Telegraph. Then again, like I said Anet doesn’t test anything.

I agree this change was uncalled for, but this kind of thing happens all the time and builds come and go. The problem was that it was too easy to kill players by simply using 3 multiple times. Of course, this isn’t true for players of a higher caliber, but to be frank the average opponent is, well, average.

So that means as we’ve done countless times before, it’s time to adapt! Whether that means a change of playstyle or a completely different build, we can’t give up on S/D yet. Where would we all be if we ditched when infiltrator’s return lost it’s stunbreak?

Of course if you truly think S/D is done for, there are still 6 other weapon sets to experiment with. I just can’t wrap my head around Arenanet actually revoking this change. Here’s to being the most hated class eh?

So after Amon and I talked, because he can’t comment on anything, we have both decided even if we agree/disagree about things we’ll always AGREE that it is Anet’s fault for not testing things. I’ve rethought things, and probably just change the way Acro/Trickery traits work. Even so we’ll have to adapt, because #AnetLogic says so.

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

So after Amon and I talked, because he can’t comment on anything, we have both decided even if we agree/disagree about things we’ll always AGREE that it is Anet’s fault for not testing things. I’ve rethought things, and probably just change the way Acro/Trickery traits work. Even so we’ll have to adapt, because #AnetLogic says so.

+1
#Revert
And ye cant post long paragraphs cuz anet doesnt like me ;3

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

So after Amon and I talked, because he can’t comment on anything, we have both decided even if we agree/disagree about things we’ll always AGREE that it is Anet’s fault for not testing things. I’ve rethought things, and probably just change the way Acro/Trickery traits work. Even so we’ll have to adapt, because #AnetLogic says so.

Well the question is was acro/trick fine before the introduction of the runes of strength and fire/air sigils? if the answer is yes then why nerf them ?

Marvin’s suggestion isn’t a bad one, sounds too complicated for anet but i wouldn’t mind if it was implemented. I think being able to hit through blocks and an additional boonstrip would revive s/d and the initiative / larcenous time increase would keep it in check. I’d still prefer the old s/d for the purposes of dealing with aegis… I really wished anet would have considered the players like myself and amon for example who’ve played s/d exclusively for a year or more when they came up with a half ***ed “fix” to the build r issue. I think the saddest part is that most players don’t care how the s/d acro was nerfed so long as they didn’t have to deal with it anymore, I believe this is the reason why it will likely never be fixed. I’ve pretty much surrendered. not sure what to do with thief or the game at this point…………..

YourFriendMarvin.4127:

So after Amon and I talked, because he can’t comment on anything, we have both decided even if we agree/disagree about things we’ll always AGREE that it is Anet’s fault for not testing things. I’ve rethought things, and probably just change the way Acro/Trickery traits work. Even so we’ll have to adapt, because #AnetLogic says so.

I do not understand the logic here. The Acro /trickery trait lines are not overpowered. They are fine as is, Different builds take different traits in the same for their own reasons. In changing the acro trickery line you affect ALL builds. There has to be reasons to choose those lines over SA.

That build was absolutely overpowered if played well and cancerous beyond belief. Totally fine for me how it is.

#norevert

Anonymouse.4760:

. I think the saddest part is that most players don’t care how the s/d acro was nerfed so long as they didn’t have to deal with it anymore. …………..

read the post above
My case and point

That all good but Arena net doesnt hear us! All what we disscuss it just nothing!

After patch unreal to kill Guard MEditation , Ele Celestial ( thief doesnt have enough burst ) and Burning Engi ( also lack burst dmg )! Its ugly FS costs 4 ini and u have to hit target for LS , cast take a time and everybody can dodge it!!!

I tired from this stupid changes!
To play thief we need super internet but little lag and we are dead, also we need super reactions , and just be unreal cool player or just wait when enemy does mistake!

Need one more topic but about Short Bow =)) that nerf Choking Gas deals dmg ( so little little dmg:D::D )It looks like speacial nerf to delete cool trick use Poison while stealth!!!
Now thief gameplay looks like= hit=>dodge=> hit=> dodge=>dodge=>hit___ mistake and death!

Do not understand always nerf if they can create something NEW like they did fantastic spvp combat!!!

Anet screwed up with thief class!

Need love every class.

Acro has been ask to be buffed because of lack cleansing and UP traits, air/fire sigils don’t proc as often if you go full Acro and Trickery and do less damage, s/d has cripple,weakness, cleansing, instant gap closer,stealth,CC it’s not a pure burst weapon,increase of damage in vitality line is common for all classes.

All they need to is revert initiative usage with FS and LS,reduction in cast time of FS.