Guild Wars 2

Did my first foray into WvW this morning! I was pretty pleased with my performance. I got into a really nice fight with another, really experienced thief running D/P. We weren’t able to kill each other, it was actually a lot of fun! Thanks to the mobility from S/D, she kept couldn’t catch me with my pants down by disengaging and re-engaging. This leads me to my first question:

She would destealth and incredibly long distance away. How did she achieve this? Did she swap to SB by using up all her initiative on SB5 after using Shadow Refuge?

My second question is: Is S/D supposed to be a direct counter to D/P? After a few minutes of neither being able to kill each other, she started berating my build for not being able to kill her.

Finally, I would really appreciate some more tips on how to beat D/P in the future. My biggest issue it I couldn’t interrupt her heal after using my steal as a gap closer (I had to, infiltrator’s return reset takes so long!).

- they probably either used sb 5 or shadow step
- d/p is actually counter to s/d, to do dmg as s/d you need to get FS → LS off and blinds can prevent it, given the nature of the sigil procs however it can go both way
- well you either will have to save steal for their heal or make sure you get in stealth for interrupt

if it was SA d/p you probably won’t kill them unless they let you due to nature of SA traits

DP is NOT a counter to SD. It’s actually the other way around.

So, how can I beat it next time?

Btw, she might have used the trait of 50% speed while stealther + SB skill 5.

Use steal when to interrupt the HS through the Black Powder to deny him stealth. Use the stolen skill to get into stealth, cast Basilisk Venom and interrupt his HS again a bit later.
Then just use Sw2 to immob and burst. When they have already used their heal, cast refuge, immob them with sb and drop 2-3 cluster Bombs. They should be dead.

If you know the vulnerability windows of S/D, D/P easily counters it.

Because of stealth, and the open world of WvW it’s pretty much guarenteed that you can disengage when you enter 9+ seconds of it. You’d both be doing the same thing to each other, disengaging when you’re low, though you get to disengage more frequently because of your return ports.

Basically D/P is equipped to take you down, if played properly. But if you find yourself having the advantage and allow a long duration stealth from Blackpowder or SR, you’ll be hard pressed to ever win that matchup.

In my opinion, the best way to win as Acro vs D/P is to be unpredictable with your evades and force steal to miss.

Neither counter each other. It’s literally 50/50 if equal skill, and no SA. But if it’s SA, D/P has the advantage. Its completely up to timing the abilities, if the d/p is using HiS s/d can win if they daze it. Either way the weapon sets do not counter each other, it all depends on the player using it.

Amonatory.2453:

Neither counter each other. It’s literally 50/50 if equal skill, and no SA. But if it’s SA, D/P has the advantage. Its completely up to timing the abilities, if the d/p is using HiS s/d can win if they daze it. Either way the weapon sets do not counter each other, it all depends on the player using it.

^ Pretty much this.

Basically you just have to outplay them and be smart, try not to blow your burst, try and ruin their burst.

Amonatory.2453:

Neither counter each other. It’s literally 50/50 if equal skill, and no SA. But if it’s SA, D/P has the advantage. Its completely up to timing the abilities, if the d/p is using HiS s/d can win if they daze it. Either way the weapon sets do not counter each other, it all depends on the player using it.

How is that? You mean an actual 1v1 or a tpvp match where the D/P can just gank from stealth. I think the S/D has to outplay the D/P that can just one shot from stealth.

glock.6590:

Amonatory.2453:

Neither counter each other. It’s literally 50/50 if equal skill, and no SA. But if it’s SA, D/P has the advantage. Its completely up to timing the abilities, if the d/p is using HiS s/d can win if they daze it. Either way the weapon sets do not counter each other, it all depends on the player using it.

How is that? You mean an actual 1v1 or a tpvp match where the D/P can just gank from stealth. I think the S/D has to outplay the D/P that can just one shot from stealth.

Well, the OP was talking about WvW so he’s most likely going to SEE the thief before they engage, making it a fair 1v1 basically. S/D can just dodge the burst if they know its coming, but D/P has blinds, daze, heartseeker, and backstab. So it kind of balances out.

Thanks for your replies everyone! Based on what you all have said, I did pretty well by not letting her kill me. She must have just gotten frustrated, which is why she berated me.

As for my build, does anyone have a link a real S/D build? I’m just using 2/0/0/6/6 and traits I thought would work, with almost full zerker (Dire shoulder and legs because those are the exotics I have for those slots for now. haha).

The biggest conundrum I have at the moment are which traits to choose for my Grandmaster and master traits in the acro line. I don’t switch my weapons, I’m not in stealth very much, and the healing on initiative use would be negligible. So, I’ve been using the Condi remove on dodge and Condi remove on 75% health traits for master and GM. Is there anything else that would be more effective?
Also, a nice rune set that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg would be much appreciated!

Those traits are OK. pain Response and Vigorous Recovery are a must. The last trait is usually power of Inertia, but I personally prefer Assassin Reward (I use the same build but I play with only one weapon).
For the Runes, I love Pack Runes. Some go for Hoelbrak or Strength. Ogre, Air and Eagle Runes also work.
You can get Berserker Exotic Gear from the WvW vendor by paying only one gold and a few hundred WvW badges, or you can buy it with Dungeon Tokens. Don’t use Dire because it’s useless, go full zerk (you can also opt for some Assassin’s pieces should they be of easier access to you)

Thanks for the rune suggestions! I know, the Exotic Dire pieces are just what I had laying around, and I didn’t want to spend 70s on yellow berserker gear I would have soon anyways. I’ll get my last piece tomorrow from CoF.
I’ll make sure to slot vigorous recovery instead of the condi removal on dodge!

hihey.1075:

Those traits are OK. pain Response and Vigorous Recovery are a must. The last trait is usually power of Inertia, but I personally prefer Assassin Reward (I use the same build but I play with only one weapon).
For the Runes, I love Pack Runes. Some go for Hoelbrak or Strength. Ogre, Air and Eagle Runes also work.
You can get Berserker Exotic Gear from the WvW vendor by paying only one gold and a few hundred WvW badges, or you can buy it with Dungeon Tokens. Don’t use Dire because it’s useless, go full zerk (you can also opt for some Assassin’s pieces should they be of easier access to you)

Vigorous recovery is def not a must lol. I did just fine w/o it when using my 2/2/0/4/6 build. You still have a lot of evades just not as much.

if d/p could not kill s/d, then it definitely was bad d/p.

All these arguments about what counter what are rather amusing when almost every time I kill a high rank pvper on our scrubby T9 wvw server, they switch from S/D to D/P to counter my S/D.

The thread is about WWW. I see no any reason not to take SA traits for D/P at WWW.

You can play even without weapon if you want. It would be insomuch reasonable as not to use SA for D/P thief in WWW. Of course one can take d/p as escape set but I thought we are talking about d/p thief vs s/d thief.

moi.4398:

fumcheg.1936:

You can play even without weapon if you want. It would be insomuch reasonable as not to use SA for D/P thief in WWW. Of course one can take d/p as escape set but I thought we are talking about d/p thief vs s/d thief.

D/P thief is perfectly viable without SA in WvW . Not everyone runs SA in WvW so the previous answers to the d/p vs s/d traited both aspect of the weapon set ( aka SA or trickery /crit strikes )
Only a d/d set truly needs SA for performs .

well, if you are talking about ppl who like to die from every condi build or get kitten d by pu mesmers, medi guards or hambow warriors then yes, d/p is perfectly viable without SA.

D/P can reset stealth no matter what SA or not, if you play Trickery d/p then yes against those builds you will actually stay in stealth longer and rely on well time steal(Mug+300 condition damage) while if SA you get quick recovery and can attack more often(more initiative gain+toughness+healing power+cleansing+healing). Trickery is mainly chosen for utility on burst thief SoH and Bountiful Theft some thieves even run 6/6/2 rather than trickery in WvW you see differently in PvP because of conquest where only a few play SA.

I see SA and DA s/d thieves in WvW you don’t have to get acro so to me it’s a 50/50 thing assuming they don’t have a phobia of judgement ,many burst thieves(why wouldn’t you on condi) thieves also chose Trickery because of fear.

In WvW at least 2 in SA is essential if you want a well rounded build on D/P. S/D can clear conditions on infiltrator’s return, D/P needs Shadow’s Embrace. Flat out needs it. The condition spam isn’t so bad at the moment while longbow rangers are popular but any decent engi or necro will shred a D/P thief that doesn’t have condition removal in stealth. And for initiative efficiency you need infusion of shadows, so that is 4 in SA. Then you might as well go the full whack and go 6 in SA for the might and health regen in stealth. D/P has such good synergy with SA traits that if you want a build that is viable against any class and build (and in WvW specifically you will encounter them all sooner or later) then you need it. Trickery D/P build is a gimmick, it seriously struggles against certain builds, especially condition heavy ones. SA is just more versatile and viable.

I don’t know why people look at it from a 1v1 perspective, as if the game is supposed to be balanced that way, seeing that some specs and professions are soft or hard counters against each other. Trickery is perfectly viable with whatever combination of 2 traits which you use in DA/SA/Acr.

Full SA synergizes with D/P, but it does carry the player alot. Also I find the last change to Black Powder is quite a nerf, not just the change to FS/LS for the S/D set..

Eldanesh.2390:

In WvW at least 2 in SA is essential if you want a well rounded build on D/P. S/D can clear conditions on infiltrator’s return, D/P needs Shadow’s Embrace. Flat out needs it. The condition spam isn’t so bad at the moment while longbow rangers are popular but any decent engi or necro will shred a D/P thief that doesn’t have condition removal in stealth. And for initiative efficiency you need infusion of shadows, so that is 4 in SA. Then you might as well go the full whack and go 6 in SA for the might and health regen in stealth. D/P has such good synergy with SA traits that if you want a build that is viable against any class and build (and in WvW specifically you will encounter them all sooner or later) then you need it. Trickery D/P build is a gimmick, it seriously struggles against certain builds, especially condition heavy ones. SA is just more versatile and viable.

Can you give me a good example of a full SA build for D/P?

SA is in no way required in wvw. It is simply a less effective build than the trickery variant. If you think you need more condi clear beyond HiS and shadow step then I recommend you try altering your play style. Spend a few weeks in spvp and actually learn your class

As for advice, unless he’s a top d/p thief you can probably evade through his stealth up time (he can time his BS+steal at the end of your FS but most won’t). It’s probably best to save steal to interrupt his heal as that will put the most pressure on him. If he’s low on health consider using it to interrupt the HS through BP to finish the fight. After he stealths you can often predict where he will be (running straight towards you) and you can CnD off of him to regain the upper hand. Use dancing dagger once in a while because he’s probably not spec’d to have a ton of ports (he should be but probably isn’t….) and the cripple really limits what he can do. It’s also good for clearing blind. Other than that, make sure you have sigil of air along with fire or blood so that you have the best chance of landing a BIG hit when you do land one.

Good luck and there’s definitely no shame in ending it with a draw.

Hype.8032:

SA is in no way required in wvw. It is simply a less effective build than the trickery variant. If you think you need more condi clear beyond HiS and shadow step then I recommend you try altering your play style. Spend a few weeks in spvp and actually learn your class

Playing D/P in WvW has nothing to do with playing D/P in sPvP. Just as you won’t play x/6/6/x/x thief in sPvP be course it is absolutely useles while in WvW it’s more than fine.
I don’t say one can’t play trickery d/p in WvW. I even saw one video on youtube with trickery d/p. Everyone can play whatever he likes but one things are just a way more efficient than other.

StephenD.3782:

Can you give me a good example of a full SA build for D/P?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAoaVlsMp7plPx0J8PNRPBtdsDwD4eCjIEddDA-T1SBABZpk4MlgP8AAoU9nIOCAXpEqLlL4pPYhDBwR7PAwJAIAACwv5b+23AO6RP6RP6RboDdoD9o3sMALjB-w

Hype.8032:

SA is in no way required in wvw. It is simply a less effective build than the trickery variant. If you think you need more condi clear beyond HiS and shadow step then I recommend you try altering your play style. Spend a few weeks in spvp and actually learn your class

Duelling in the OS is the best way to learn a class not running around in spvp capping points. And if you played WvW on a regular basis you would understand how quickly certain classes can load and re-load you with conditions. HiS and Shadow Step are good for removing many conditions at once, but if you keep getting random burning, bleeding and weakness stacks (which most condition classes can apply every few seconds) then you really need some way to remove those that isn’t cooldown dependent. Also bear in mind with Shadow’s Embrace Blinding Powder will instantly remove conditions like immobilise and fear making it an insanely effective recovery/escape tool.