Guild Wars 2

I made some tests today to check what happened in terms of sheer damage numbers to the S/P set after the PW nerf.

I made calculations only for the Autoattack chain and for Pistol Whip, since they’re the 2 skills that do the real damage with the S/P set.

First of all, the skill coefficients (bear in mind that the sc aren’t precise, I didn’t have the time nor the will to interpolate the exact number making a lot of data gathering ):

- Autoattack: 0.795 – 0.795 – 1.29
- Pistol Whip: 0.336 (Pistol) – 0.371 (Sword single swing).

Now, let’s say that we don’t have any traits and/or buffs to increase our damage, and let’s not consider any critical hit at all.

The formula to calculate the damage done on a target is this:

(Power * Weapon Damage * Skill Coefficient) / Armor

So we have:

- Autoattack: ((Power * Wpn Dmg) / Armor ) * (0.795*2+1.29)= 2.88 * Power * Wpn Dmg / Armor
- PW: (0.336 + 8*0.371) * Power * Wpn Dmg / Armor = 3.304 * Power * Wpn Dmg / Armor

Let’s take some numbers to make an example. Power 1785, Wpn Dmg 1000 (taking the upper limit of the sword dmg), Armor 2000. The overall value of Power * Wpn Dmg / Armor with these values is:

1785 * 1000 / 2000 = 1785 / 2 = 892.5

If we put this number in the above formulaes we get these results:

- Autoattack: 892.5 * 2.88 = 2570.4
- PW: 892.5 * 3.304 = 2948.82

Now, it seems that PW, even after nerf, makes a little bit more damage than the autoattack chain. But here’s the problem: if I checked the durations right, the Autoattack Chain has a total “casting time” of 2,5s, while PW has a total of 3s.

So, if we go to check the DPS:

- Autoattack: 2570.4 / 2.5 = 1028.16
- PW: 2948.82 / 3 = 982.94

Thus, now, we have that PW has a lower DPS than the Autoattack chain. Before the nerf, if we consider the -15% nerf, PW had a DPS of 1156.4.

Moreover, when we factor in the possibility of critical hits, we have to remember that the game rolls the critical chance for every single hit and not per single skill. This means that we have, with PW, a much higher interval in its dmg range (but with less variance) than the one we have with the Autoattack.

For example, let’s say now that we have 50% of crit chance and no crit dmg (just for the sake of calculations ofc).

With PW, you can get no crits at all, thus doing the damage that I wrote before (with a probability of 0.5^9 = about 0.2%), or we can make (always with a prob. of 0,2%) all crits, thus raising the overall damage to 2948.82 * 1.5 = 4423.23. You should bear in mind however that the probability to get exactly the average dmg between these extremes is much higher in PW, due to the fact that we have 9 “rolls” instead of only 3 in the Autoattack Chain.

For the latter, we have no crits (with a prob. of 0.5 ^ 3 = 12,5%), and all crits, with the same prob., that deal a total of 3855.6.

However, the DPS remains higher for the Autoattack Chain compared to PW.

To these numbers, you can factor in any damage increase given by traits like Executioner, or sigils, etc., but the overall picture remains the same.

Again, I’m not sure 100% about the casting time duration of PW and Autoattack, I tried the best I could with a chronograph and it seemed to me that the respective durations were 3s and 2.5s. If anyone has better proof of this, please tell it so we can rework the DPS numbers.

But, at the moment, it seems that with S/P it’s better to use Haste in conjuction with the Autoattack than with PW in terms of pure damage.

To me, it’s a sad, sad day.

Thank you for this work.

Anet put a band-aid on a bullet wound here.

Getting hit by PW wasnt a huge deal. getting smashed by 2-3 PW in the time of a haste buff WAS A HUGE DEAL.
Was pistol whip OP or was haste OP?

Well, I think that no one with a sound mind will tell you that the problem was in PW, but that it was, er… it IS in Haste in conjuction with PW. And so they nerfed PW. Way logical. :>

The auto-attack chain also adds cripple and weakness. I rarely pistol whip and spend my initiative on infiltrators. Pistol whip is for melee trains.

Haste is a crutch.

OP:
There is no need to further testing, i did it myself with steady weps against heavy golem (wich has around 2.6K armor) and ive got the same results (slight differences, i got 0.799 SC for autos and 1.299 for the third auto); however, in the activation times, i got less difference between PW and auto chain, i used my logitech G13 (wich has a cronograph inbuilt) and i got around 2.3 secs for auto chain and 2.6 for PW, wich slighty reduces the activation time differences, thus increasing the PW DPS against auto.
For dmg, the formula is what u have there, Dmg=P*W*SC/A, the SC formula is →SC=A*Dmg/(P*W).

Conclusion is, PW is to use WITH HASTE, coz this way u stunlock ur foe, delivering massive dmg in a few secs without no getaway, if u do the same with auto’s, ur foe will escape easily the punishment, speacially if we take into account that the third hit is the slowest of the auto chain.

Galandil.9641:

Well, I think that no one with a sound mind will tell you that the problem was in PW, but that it was, er… it IS in Haste in conjuction with PW. And so they nerfed PW. Way logical. :>

It’s more logical for a temporary fix to a stand out skill. Quickness effects 6/8 class in this game so it has more tied to it, making it harder to change.

Also, just because they nerfed PW doesn’t mean they will never re-buff it. In any case, if you’re really disabled by PW’s nerf, imo you need to reassess the flexibility and adaptability of your build and/or playstyle.

Dual.8953:

Galandil.9641:

Well, I think that no one with a sound mind will tell you that the problem was in PW, but that it was, er… it IS in Haste in conjuction with PW. And so they nerfed PW. Way logical. :>

It’s more logical for a temporary fix to a stand out skill. Quickness effects 6/8 class in this game so it has more tied to it, making it harder to change.

Also, just because they nerfed PW doesn’t mean they will never re-buff it. In any case, if you’re really disabled by PW’s nerf, imo you need to reassess the flexibility and adaptability of your build and/or playstyle.

Sure, but they are going to have to change Quickness, so it would make sense for them to just do it first. Besides, in my experience, skills rarely get re-buffed after something like this, at least not within around 6 months or so.

Players can and always should adapt to changes like this, but that says nothing about the quality of the changes themselves.

The exact same thing happened with the HS nerf, auto-attacking was yielding more damage than HS. And of course I got trolled to pieces back when I tried to voice it.

Amazing how Arenanet nerfed an easy to dodge low damage skill and left other broken skills untouched

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/S-P-The-math-after-nerf/388207/quote

I can never understand why Pistol Whip was nerfed. Its needed in PVE, and the damaging compontent was low compared to other multi hit skills (even compared to other single hit skills)
You could avoid PW easy. The stun is only .5 second. You can dodge roll before you swing the first damage attack.

As you see above, currently PW is useless. Using auto attack nets more damage then PW, all because bad players whined about an average skill.

Please note that the Invurnability Frame of PW is very short (you can stun before he start damaging) and the damage was lower to that of Mesmer Blurred Frenzy (IF Traited 30 Power 30 Crit. While Mesmer skill offers Invurnablity from start to finish).

The way to fix PW was to remove the stun compontent, damage was fine and did not need a nerf.

I hope this thread dont turn into OMG L2P, because I tell you the same. You want me to belive you cannot dodge an attack that takes longer then 100b to wind up. Before you say but stun, stun is only .5 and if you whine about immobilze, well Warrior and Mesmer both immoblize before their multihit skills. Also you can only use it 3 times MAX in a row IF traited for Initative.

All this nerf did was ruin PW in PVE. Just using Auto attack and Blinding Powder kills faster and safer then using PW.

Please revert damage of PW so it becomes useful again, and to offset this remove the stun compontent to give more time for people to dodge the long animation that locks thief in place.

Eduardo.4675:

however, in the activation times, i got less difference between PW and auto chain, i used my logitech G13 (wich has a cronograph inbuilt) and i got around 2.3 secs for auto chain and 2.6 for PW, wich slighty reduces the activation time differences, thus increasing the PW DPS against auto.

Thanks for checking it. Just a question: did you count the activation/executing times of the skills from “pressing the button” to “pressing the button again”?

Trying to explain myself better:

- PW: start counting at the pressing of the 3 key and stop counting as soon as you can press 3 again.
- Autoattack chain: start counting at the pressing of the 1 key and stopping immediately before you inflict the new Slash attack in the chain.

If that’s the case, than we have PW with a higher DPS than Autoattack, but really negligible, in the order of 16.6 HPs of damage more.

Conclusion is, PW is to use WITH HASTE, coz this way u stunlock ur foe, delivering massive dmg in a few secs without no getaway, if u do the same with auto’s, ur foe will escape easily the punishment, speacially if we take into account that the third hit is the slowest of the auto chain.

With 2.6s of total activation + executing time of PW, we should get a total of 1.3s under quickness. To compare the times:

- 0.75s to cast the skill, 1.35s to complete the pistol + 8x sword swings. Factoring the 0.5s stun, the target has 1.35s-0.5s=0.85s to get away (if not immobilized by devourer) before we land the whole PW.
- Under Haste: 0.375s to cast, 0.925s to complete PW. With the 0.5s stun, the target has 0.425s to get away (again, if not using Devourer), enough to spam dodge before the 1st PW lands completely.

So, even with Haste, we can’t at all stunlock the target in place (and, tbh, it would be OP if we could). That’s why I can’t yet understand this 15% nerf to PW.

Ofc we could trait to get a stun/immob. lock on the target (for example, getting the XI trait in Deadly Arts, which procs a 4s immobilize as soon as the target goes under 50% of his health), but this means that we have just a couple ways to use PW effectively: get Devourer OR the XI trait. Not a lot of variability in build construction for me.

^

Not a lot of build variety IF you are aiming for a multi-PW lockdown burst opener.

If you are using PW throughout the fight when other conditions are met (e.g. the target has no more endurance, use it cold), then your build options expand.

That aside, the issues as I see them are as follows:

1. Quickness is having too much of an impact across the board. It needs to be more accessible (higher uptime), more strippable (make it a boon), and only 33% reduction in cast, for 50% increase in rate.

2. PW needs to be comparatively weaker than Hundred Blades and other attacks. Not only does PW have a stun, it also has 0 cooldown. How much, I’m not going to give an opinion on. Is the 15% nerf too much? Shrug.

3. The fact that PW is competitive with autoattacks (or that autoattacks are competitive with PW) is a problem. That needs to be adjusted one way or another.

Galandil.9641:

Eduardo.4675:

however, in the activation times, i got less difference between PW and auto chain, i used my logitech G13 (wich has a cronograph inbuilt) and i got around 2.3 secs for auto chain and 2.6 for PW, wich slighty reduces the activation time differences, thus increasing the PW DPS against auto.

Thanks for checking it. Just a question: did you count the activation/executing times of the skills from “pressing the button” to “pressing the button again”?

Trying to explain myself better:

- PW: start counting at the pressing of the 3 key and stop counting as soon as you can press 3 again.
- Autoattack chain: start counting at the pressing of the 1 key and stopping immediately before you inflict the new Slash attack in the chain.

If that’s the case, than we have PW with a higher DPS than Autoattack, but really negligible, in the order of 16.6 HPs of damage more.

Conclusion is, PW is to use WITH HASTE, coz this way u stunlock ur foe, delivering massive dmg in a few secs without no getaway, if u do the same with auto’s, ur foe will escape easily the punishment, speacially if we take into account that the third hit is the slowest of the auto chain.

With 2.6s of total activation + executing time of PW, we should get a total of 1.3s under quickness. To compare the times:

- 0.75s to cast the skill, 1.35s to complete the pistol + 8x sword swings. Factoring the 0.5s stun, the target has 1.35s-0.5s=0.85s to get away (if not immobilized by devourer) before we land the whole PW.
- Under Haste: 0.375s to cast, 0.925s to complete PW. With the 0.5s stun, the target has 0.425s to get away (again, if not using Devourer), enough to spam dodge before the 1st PW lands completely.

So, even with Haste, we can’t at all stunlock the target in place (and, tbh, it would be OP if we could). That’s why I can’t yet understand this 15% nerf to PW.

Ofc we could trait to get a stun/immob. lock on the target (for example, getting the XI trait in Deadly Arts, which procs a 4s immobilize as soon as the target goes under 50% of his health), but this means that we have just a couple ways to use PW effectively: get Devourer OR the XI trait. Not a lot of variability in build construction for me.

Yes i did, i press both the skill button and the crono button at same time in both skills; PW’s pistol hit is what slows down the skill,its a long wind before the flurry and that may confuse a bit, but letting the auto execute several times will add up to ~ 2.3 secs * the number of full auto’s, the samegoes for PW, i used it single and then multy times, to add up.

As for the haste thing, ur target is stuned at the end of the pistol swing, for .5 secs, wich render it almost useless without haste, however, the flurry accelerated by haste will only leave a small window for ur foe to escape, most ppl spam the W button furiosly after the stun to move away, if the spam occurs at a bad timing, ull not move at all; also, u can move while pistol whiping, but it has to be extremely well timed, u need to stop moving just a fraction of a sec before the pistol hits, if ur still moving at that point, it will cancel the flurry and waste initiative; this is also true for C&D and flanking strike, C&D can be used on the move,wich makes it easier to land, and as for flanking, after u press the button, let it hit the first time (it will usually allways hit) and then, in the midlle of the second hit u can change/turn direction, to rectify the awfull pathing that the skill has.

Kintari.4172:

Dual.8953:

Galandil.9641:

Well, I think that no one with a sound mind will tell you that the problem was in PW, but that it was, er… it IS in Haste in conjuction with PW. And so they nerfed PW. Way logical. :>

It’s more logical for a temporary fix to a stand out skill. Quickness effects 6/8 class in this game so it has more tied to it, making it harder to change.

Also, just because they nerfed PW doesn’t mean they will never re-buff it. In any case, if you’re really disabled by PW’s nerf, imo you need to reassess the flexibility and adaptability of your build and/or playstyle.

Sure, but they are going to have to change Quickness, so it would make sense for them to just do it first. Besides, in my experience, skills rarely get re-buffed after something like this, at least not within around 6 months or so.

Players can and always should adapt to changes like this, but that says nothing about the quality of the changes themselves.

But in this case, “adapt” means “don’t use sword/pistol”

BTW, I have found with actual critical hits with steady weapons and normal weapons, with high critical multipliers, pistol whip not only does less DPS, it does less overall damage. The third hit on the autoattack chain crits for 4k or more.

In normal fighting conditions the autoattack chain can crit for 7.5k or so, while pistol whip will sit at roughly 7.1k. Obviously haste/quickness will increase it a bit but that’s a couple times a minute.

Auto-attacks do lots of damage in this game Devil, this isn’t LOTRO.

They’re a 3 skill chain. Many classes have more DPS output in their first chain than in the rest of their skill set because of cooldown times. They’re built around utility, control, mobility, etc.

Or you could look and notice has 2 interupts, a blind and a stunbreak. PW may not be the damage dealer it used to, but it’s still a viable counter to skills with tells.

When you’re using a skill for an interrupt when it used to be your primary damage dealer, it was overnerfed. That’s what Headshot is for.

Auto-attack shouldn’t be better than Pistol Whip. That’s like nerfing warrior’s Hundred Blades so that their auto attack is stronger.

PW was nerfed needlessly. The issue was Haste/PW, not PW by itself. They could have lowered the stun on it to .25 seconds rather than .5, or even nerfed haste. But instead, we suffer because of a broken mechanic.

I didn’t really use S/P, so this doesn’t affect me that much. Still, it’s ridiculous that basic attack is now better than a skill that was our main damage.

tl;dr
Your entire complains are countered by the fact, that PW has built-in evasion and an interrupt. It’s a semi defensive skill, and its defensive part is untouched.

This is how it should be.

Although you can still argue it’s bad that all your dmg is baked into auto attacks (rangers).

Sword Chain doesn’t stun and give you evasion. Pistol Whip does. Initiative shouldn’t be spent based on “what hits the hardest” it should be spent on “what utility do I need”.

The fact that “if you want to do dmg” which is pretty much most of the time, you basically just spam 1 skill because it does the most.

The stun has a longer windup time than the stun itself gives, the evasion was put in to counteract the fact that you are rooted while doing it as a squishy class.

if it’s intended to be a defensive skill with a stun not a damage skill, then make the stun instant, not a .75s cast, and make the evade cover the entire animation, not just the middle 1s of the animation. There is a gap between the stun and the evade (trust me, risen brutes seem to know exactly when it is, if you’re fighting a pack of risen and there’s multiple risen brutes, the second brute will hit with his hammer knockdown right after your stun goes off, interrupting the skill before the evade + damage starts) and another part at the end of the animation where you are vulnerable after the evade wears off, not to mention being totally vulnerable during the cast time.

Okay, look, during beta 1 and beta 2, Pistol Whip was as much damage as it used to do, but the stun was only .25s and there was no evade. The stun was instant however, so it was great against a single target (with haste especially), but very poor against multiple targets.

You’d pistol whip, instantly stun, and then get blown up by the mobs surrounding you, you ended up having to black powder, then pistol whip in order to use it at all, and you were out of initiative.

There were cries however about it being paired with haste and blowing up single targets in sPVP in glass cannon builds, just like there have been since.

toward the end of beta, they added a .75s cast time before the stun, so that people who’s brains weren’t completely starved of oxygen could dodge out of it and make the thief whiff air unless the thief immobilized them first (the immobilize to infiltrator’s strike was added at this time too). Then they added the evade, because the skill rooted the thief making using it in any situation other than a premeditated haste gank a death wish, I tried using it between them adding the .75s cast time and when they added the longer stun and evade.. trust me, it wasn’t pretty. You rooted yourself and got blown up as soon as they broke devourer venom.

It was intended initially as a damage skill, the only damage skill on the bar aside from autoattack.

Knote.2904:

This is how it should be.

Although you can still argue it’s bad that all your dmg is baked into auto attacks (rangers).

Sword Chain doesn’t stun and give you evasion. Pistol Whip does. Initiative shouldn’t be spent based on “what hits the hardest” it should be spent on “what utility do I need”.

The fact that “if you want to do dmg” which is pretty much most of the time, you basically just spam 1 skill because it does the most.

That’d be fine if not every class had some higher damaging skills outside of 1. Not to mention the function of PW makes it not that useful for defensive purposes outside of PVP with haste. The stun is too slow to stop things on reaction (Headshot is used for this anyways) and the evasion comes out too far into the move to also be used on reaction (with the exception of some PVE bosses that you can see do a charge up and time it right).

Lets face it, they made this skill with the intention of it to do high burst damage and they killed that factor of it. If they thought the damage was too high they should have simply increased the initiative cost slightly for a band-aid fix, not nerf the damage itself. Keep in mind, one of Thieves main appeal was to be able to do high burst damage very quickly, they even list it in the class info on their main site.

If they now want this skill to be used more a defensive option (isn’t that what Flanking Strike, Black Powder and Head Shot are supposed to be for?) they have to speed it up. As it stands this skill does have some use for stun lock in PVP with haste against people that don’t bring stun break, other than that I want to write this skill off as wasted space in it’s current state.

I still use s/p after nerf. Its fun. And the cleave it gives in events is extremely benificial for picking up like 30 bags on the CoF event.

D/p is cool aswell, blind aura + heartseeker = stealth into backstab.

Anything but d/d which i used from level 1-80

What is with all these people saying things like “remove the stun from PW” and how they’re all sad its damage has been nerfed?

The WHOLE POINT of PW is the STUN. Have you not seen people get pistol-whipped in movies? The idea is to sap the poor guy: to knock him out. That is what PW is supposed to be.

The damage was too high and it should have been nerfed. If anything, I’d like to see the stun upped to a full second and have the damage reduced even more. Or have it be a knockdown. Now that would be along the lines of a pistol whipping as we’ve come to know it over years in its portrayal in movies and television.

Joshmans.8937:

I still use s/p after nerf. Its fun. And the cleave it gives in events is extremely benificial for picking up like 30 bags on the CoF event.

D/p is cool aswell, blind aura + heartseeker = stealth into backstab.

Anything but d/d which i used from level 1-80

You’re better off autoattacking while moving around if using sword in events, not using pistol whip. This was always the case because of the root.

Pistol whip was more useful in solo pve, but now I run out of initiative before it can kill enemies, sooo.. stand in a black cloud and autoattack is the more efficient way now.

KaiserCX.7103:

Knote.2904:

This is how it should be.

Although you can still argue it’s bad that all your dmg is baked into auto attacks (rangers).

Sword Chain doesn’t stun and give you evasion. Pistol Whip does. Initiative shouldn’t be spent based on “what hits the hardest” it should be spent on “what utility do I need”.

The fact that “if you want to do dmg” which is pretty much most of the time, you basically just spam 1 skill because it does the most.

That’d be fine if not every class had some higher damaging skills outside of 1. Not to mention the function of PW makes it not that useful for defensive purposes outside of PVP with haste. The stun is too slow to stop things on reaction (Headshot is used for this anyways) and the evasion comes out too far into the move to also be used on reaction (with the exception of some PVE bosses that you can see do a charge up and time it right).

Lets face it, they made this skill with the intention of it to do high burst damage and they killed that factor of it. If they thought the damage was too high they should have simply increased the initiative cost slightly for a band-aid fix, not nerf the damage itself. Keep in mind, one of Thieves main appeal was to be able to do high burst damage very quickly, they even list it in the class info on their main site.

If they now want this skill to be used more a defensive option (isn’t that what Flanking Strike, Black Powder and Head Shot are supposed to be for?) they have to speed it up. As it stands this skill does have some use for stun lock in PVP with haste against people that don’t bring stun break, other than that I want to write this skill off as wasted space in it’s current state.

Originally Pistol whip had like a 4 initiative cost, had a .25s instant stun, and full damage. The FIRST nerf they did to it was raise the initiative to 5, then add the cast time, then realized the skill only had 1 niche use so they added the evade.

You know what they need to do, to solve a lot of the issues, aside from nerf quickness which is the real root of all the problems people have with Pistol Whip and 100b?

They need to take the damage that was lost from Pistol Whip.. and roll it into infiltrator’s strike.

Cloak and Dagger can hit for really high amounts. Infiltrator’s strike tickles. Both skills are used to set up another skill.

Now I’m not saying infiltrator’s strike should do 9k damage like people claim C&D do (I usually see it hit for about 3500 realistically), but if it got the damage modifier of the THIRD hit of the sword autoattack chain rather than the first 2, I think that’d be more appropriate damage.

In a PVP situation that’d crit for about 3k. Pistol whip would remain somewhat low damage but the combination between infiltrator’s strike and pistol whip would do roughly the damage that pistol whip used to do, at the cost of 8 initiative, infiltrator’s strike doesn’t get spammed, so you wouldn’t have as much damage spamming pistol whip as you used to, but you could do 1 old pistol whip’s damage with the combination of skills, and then jump out, infiltrator’s strike, pistol whip, then jump out, which is probably the intended use of the skill. The overall damage of using pistol whip multiple times goes down from what it used to be, but still gives thieves a burst.

It’d also give sword/dagger thieves a bit of help that they need, flanking strike is pretty weak and is really janky with how it’s used due to the camera.

I’d argue that the offhand pistol skills should get some more damage as well. Just like offhand dagger skills get considerable damage. Daggers have good damage on every skill on their bar. Sword has good damage on 1 skill aside from the autoattack.

So of course they have to use that 1 skill over and over to do damage, apparently when people die in spvp and see what killed them they just see 1 skill and cry about it apparently expecting thieves to use headshot and black powder and infiltrator’s strike for damage, which they don’t do.

At the very least headshot needs to do more damage, it’s pretty sad that the lowest amount of damage I can do is shooting someone in the head with a pistol.

Devildoc.6721:

Joshmans.8937:

I still use s/p after nerf. Its fun. And the cleave it gives in events is extremely benificial for picking up like 30 bags on the CoF event.

D/p is cool aswell, blind aura + heartseeker = stealth into backstab.

Anything but d/d which i used from level 1-80

You’re better off autoattacking while moving around if using sword in events, not using pistol whip. This was always the case because of the root.

Pistol whip was more useful in solo pve, but now I run out of initiative before it can kill enemies, sooo.. stand in a black cloud and autoattack is the more efficient way now.

Yep, the main reason I use this set anymore is for 1’s AoE and Black Powder, yes Infiltrator’s Strike is good and Headshot has it’s uses at times. In dungeons I would mainly do this but I would occasionally throw out Pistol Whip for some burst damage if I’m maintaining initiative fine or Headshot if I notice a mob charging up an attack. Now I pretty much never use Pistol Whip unless I get lazy on a boss to evade an attack when they do a long charge up. For PVP I didn’t really use S/P before the nerf anyways, although I do use it for WvW where AoE is generally better than single target.

Dagins.5163:

tl;dr
Your entire complains are countered by the fact, that PW has built-in evasion and an interrupt. It’s a semi defensive skill, and its defensive part is untouched.

If you don’t bother to read, then don’t bother to answer with non-sense answers like this.

We should use PW as a semi-defensive skill, with 0.75s of doing nothing except getting the damage that we’re already taking, then a stun of 0.5s, then an evade that roots us in place.

[ ] Smart way to defend ourselves.

Galandil.9641:

Dagins.5163:

tl;dr
Your entire complains are countered by the fact, that PW has built-in evasion and an interrupt. It’s a semi defensive skill, and its defensive part is untouched.

If you don’t bother to read, then don’t bother to answer with non-sense answers like this.

We should use PW as a semi-defensive skill, with 0.75s of doing nothing except getting the damage that we’re already taking, then a stun of 0.5s, then an evade that roots us in place.

[ ] Smart way to defend ourselves.

Don’t use it to block the normal attacks. That’s a waste, save it for skills with activation times or channels.

the evade has some gaps in it, I wouldn’t try to use it to reliably dodge attacks that would 1 shot you, it’s most useful to mitigate normal attack damage and counter the hits that do get through with signet of malice procs.

If it’s only a single target mob that can be stunned, you can be damaged during the first .75s, and the last .35s of the animation.

If it’s multiple targets or a target that cannot be stunned, you can be damaged during the first 1.25s and last .35s of the animation.

Not something I’d want to chance if the hit can 1 shot you.

The damage from PW should be distributed elsewhere, I agree with Devildoc that should be infiltrator strike, but I also think it would be interesting if headshot does some realistic damage.

Headshot should do about body shot’s damage, but have an extra crit multiplier if the target is under 10% max health.

IE it’d be a finishing blow for someone trying to run away.

That would be a fun and interesting use of the skill.

I always think.. I’m using a melee weapon.. and I have a pistol.. they’re running away… why don’t I just shoot them to finish them off? Well.. headshot doesn’t do damage it just tickles is why.

Yeah I agree, if Pistol Whip is going to do less damage Infiltrator’s Strike should at least be increased. Headshot I’m not sure about, it’s an interrupt, no interrupts have good damage. Although I don’t see it being too OP if it good damage as a finisher about 10% HP left as you said.

I played for quite a while in WvW with S/P P/P, and I’m not feeling the change too badly. I’ve never used haste in the first place, and considering that I use PW for AoE denial or root/interrupt chains, it still does its job quite well.

I did notice that I no longer crit for 12k+ with it. But I can still get between 4-6k average if it hits, so it seems quite reasonable.

Galandil.9641:

Dagins.5163:

tl;dr
Your entire complains are countered by the fact, that PW has built-in evasion and an interrupt. It’s a semi defensive skill, and its defensive part is untouched.

If you don’t bother to read, then don’t bother to answer with non-sense answers like this.

We should use PW as a semi-defensive skill, with 0.75s of doing nothing except getting the damage that we’re already taking, then a stun of 0.5s, then an evade that roots us in place.

[ ] Smart way to defend ourselves.

I actually read the first post, but didn’t bother reading next peoples walls of text.
You compared damage from PW and auto attack.
My point is, that you don’t use PW only for damage, but also for defence – therefore it has a special place on skill bar.
Now, please show me which part of those two sentences is nonsense.

Many times my C&D got blocked by a random (or not) PW, or an ability with similar mechanic, resulting in losing: 6 initiative, stealth (which heals and cures conditions), damage.
Not to mention, that my face got smacked pretty bad by these sword swings. Root is important for balance. PW is a hard counter to some moves.

Dagins if you ever read any of my posts, you’d understand that the skill was meant for burst damage, not as a defensive skill.

The evasion was added in as an afterthought late in beta because rooted thieves were being blown up while trying to use the skill.

If A-net was coherent they should have nerfed the main burst from the professions to… i mean today i got pistol whipped 2x for a bit over 8k dmg (16 hits) in the same tournament o got hit by Hundred Blades 1x for over 12k (6 hits) Both with Quickness.

imo this nerf was deliberate and do not expect a buff to it!

Welcome to Guild Warriors 2

I was certain that someone would do this as I suspected the DPS of pistol whip wasn’t that much higher than auto to begin with, its quite obvious when using it in pve.

I no longer use a pistol whip build but I did expect this to happen do to the whine.

All it does is reiterate that ANet has such little understanding of the game they made. So that’s the customer service team failing at every hurdle and now the balance team?

Devildoc.6721:

Originally Pistol whip had like a 4 initiative cost, had a .25s instant stun, and full damage. The FIRST nerf they did to it was raise the initiative to 5, then add the cast time, then realized the skill only had 1 niche use so they added the evade.

Your point here was that they’ve nerfed it before. I think what you need to extrapolate from that is PW has been under a watchful eye for a while. Its no surprise that, even after the nerf, when thieves kept ‘spamming 3 ftw’ they’d have to hit it again. No pun intended…I just realized…

Devildoc.6721:

You know what they need to do, to solve a lot of the issues, aside from nerf quickness which is the real root of all the problems people have with Pistol Whip and 100b?

Quickness has no place in this game and many people agree that it’s either in need of a nerf or a complete removal. It’s a ‘build around’ utility or a ‘build without’ utility. There’s no in-between with it.

I won’t disagree that balancing skills around quickness, which essentially makes it required, is not the best path to go down. However, until they decide to do something to quickness, the powerful combinations it provides have to be dealt with on an individual basis. They did it to HB, they did it to Flurry, they did it to Heartseeker, and now they’ve done it to PW. I’m sure we’ve not seen the end of it either.

When and if quickness gets changed, we’ll see those skills being used in a different context and their incoming data will prove if there is need for a change.

Devildoc.6721:

They need to take the damage that was lost from Pistol Whip.. and roll it into infiltrator’s strike.

Roll 15% of PW’s original damage into IS? A 600m shadowstep for 3 initiative that immobilizes, breaks stun, and cures a condition? I just don’t see that happening. That’s a powerful, low-cost skill.

Devildoc.6721:

Cloak and Dagger can hit for really high amounts. Infiltrator’s strike tickles. Both skills are used to set up another skill.

CnD hurts more because of what you lose with that skill set. You lose a ranged weapon and, therefore, some distance fighting capability. Albeit to a lesser extent with this class, a ranged weapon still grants the advantage of distance.

Devildoc.6721:

In a PVP situation that’d crit for about 3k. Pistol whip would remain somewhat low damage but the combination between infiltrator’s strike and pistol whip would do roughly the damage that pistol whip used to do, at the cost of 8 initiative, infiltrator’s strike doesn’t get spammed, so you wouldn’t have as much damage spamming pistol whip as you used to, but you could do 1 old pistol whip’s damage with the combination of skills, and then jump out, infiltrator’s strike, pistol whip, then jump out, which is probably the intended use of the skill. The overall damage of using pistol whip multiple times goes down from what it used to be, but still gives thieves a burst.

The whole point of the last hit on the chain doing more than the first two is to provide a benefit to the player who is actually able to pull off the entire chain. Why would you stay close enough to use 3 consecutive hits on the target if you don’t have to? As a thief, you’ve got so many more options than just swinging in the player’s face.

Devildoc.6721:

It’d also give sword/dagger thieves a bit of help that they need, flanking strike is pretty weak and is really janky with how it’s used due to the camera.

I’d like to see the camera improved in general, but I’ve never played with a class/skill set up which moved your character in this manner so I can’t really comment on that.

I will point out that FS does more damage than the 2nd and 3rd chain hits combined, removes a boon, and evades. It also attempts (not sure how well it works) to place you behind the target, setting you up for higher damage output. I don’t think its a weak attack.

Devildoc.6721:

I’d argue that the offhand pistol skills should get some more damage as well. Just like offhand dagger skills get considerable damage. Daggers have good damage on every skill on their bar. Sword has good damage on 1 skill aside from the autoattack.

The only reason, and the proper reason, that this will not hapkitten distance. For the most part, melee just does more damage. In this type of game, where melee is about the hardest position to play, it should.

^Edit: Can’t say “h.a.p.p.e.n. i.s.” geez guys lol

Devildoc

Dagins if you ever read any of my posts, you’d understand that the skill was meant for burst damage, not as a defensive skill.
The evasion was added in as an afterthought late in beta because rooted thieves were being blown up while trying to use the skill.

I don’t care how this skill looked in past. However, I do care how it looks right now.

If you are getting blown up during root time (3sec?) in this patch, you probably have a glass cannon build, while also jumping on many opponents at the same time – what means you are doing it wrong.

Volrath.1473:

If A-net was coherent they should have nerfed the main burst from the professions to… i mean today i got pistol whipped 2x for a bit over 8k dmg (16 hits) in the same tournament o got hit by Hundred Blades 1x for over 12k (6 hits) Both with Quickness.

imo this nerf was deliberate and do not expect a buff to it!

Welcome to Guild Warriors 2

You shouldn’t be playing tournaments if you got hit by pistol whip AND hundred blades.

I’m doing very well so far, the fact that you DON’T get hit is what surprises me.

I cant control every thing that happens around me and for some odd reason i not always have an evade/dodge available. but pls feel free to make a vid of a full match, I would love to see your godness.

Redscope.6215:

Your point here…

Again, what you’re not seeing, the thing you guys just plainly do not see, whatsoever, is that it is the only skill on the entire bar that does any damage of note. Yes, when they have a target where they want them, they’re going to use pistol whip, it is the only viable option for damage that they have. What do you want them to do?

None of the skills on the bar do damage, except autoattack, and pistol whip.

Quickness has no place in this game…

Only point I can actually agree on, quickness needs to be reduced to no more than a 33% IAS. Guild Wars did it that way and while it was an advantage, it didn’t cause NEAR the problems as this 100% IAS quickness does here. Make it 33%, make it a boon so that it can be stripped, and hey, you might be able to get rid of some of the penalties attached to the skills that give it on demand. Maybe not, that’d be something for further testing, but 100% IAS quickness that can’t be stripped has to go. Maybe keep the 100% increased activation time for skills with a cast time, I understand without quickness finishing off opponents when you’re outnumbered is virtually impossible. Guild Wars had 50% cast time bonuses and they fit into the game just fine. But for attack speed and the large number of multi-hit combos and skill chains in this game, 100% IAS just cannot stay.

IS

Every skill on the dagger skillbar does a lot of damage, every single skill, regardless of utility. Do you want S/P thieves to spam pistol whip? Or do you want to see them actually use other skills on their bar? Until all the skills do damage, you’re either asking for thieves to spam pistol whip, or sit there and autoattack, or not use the weapon set at all, there really are no in betweens here right now.

Not to mention, if you want IS to break stun and remove condition, it costs 5 initiative total, not 3, and you have to premeditate it, and you have to stay close enough to your point of origin, and you have to do it within 15s.

You lose a ranged weapon…

Allow me to clear up your gross ignorance here. S/P thief does not have a ranged damage skill, not at all. We have tickles from 900 and 600 range, our only actual damage is melee range.

Dagger/Dagger thief, has dancing dagger. Dancing dagger hits as hard as heartseeker on a target over 50% health. It also bounces to up to 4 targets, cripples, and has a 900 unit range (same range as shortbow or pistols), all for a moderate 4 initiative.

Wanna know how much damage it does vs the ranged weapons? Well, for starters, it does twice as much damage as shortbow autoattack, the shortbow cripple, it INSTANTLY does as much damage as a target standing in choking gas’s field the entire duration (like 20 seconds), it does almost as much damage as cluster bomb!

Pistols? Dancing dagger does 2.5x the damage of a pistol auto attack, 2x the damage of body shot, we already know black powder and headshot do next to no damage (we’re talking 500 damage on a crit in berserkers on a light armor target). Yes, unload outdamages it but unload is single target, costs more initiative, but still, doing half the damage of the most damaging single target ranged skill, across 4 targets, and applying cripple, is not too shabby for “giving up a ranged weapon”

…last hit on the chain…

So why does every skill on dagger/dagger’s skillset do more damage than the autoattack? Why does every skill on a greatsword warrior’s bar do more damage than the autoattack chain (barring perhaps the cripple)

…setting you up for higher damage output…

Sure, if it works it sets you up to do damage.. but what damage really? It doesn’t really have any followup burst damage, realistically you’re just going to autoattack.

Display of ignorance

Again, let me clear up ignorance. The pistol offhand skills do less damage than a pistol autoattack, they do like half an autoattack, and are both quite expensive initiative wise. Meanwhile dancing dagger’s doing 2500 damage for the same cost, across multiple targets, and crippling. What I’m looking at, is headshot doing about body shot damage, with an extra high crit multiplier if used against a target under 10% health. What this would mean damage number wise? About 1300 damage crits (vs 500 now) if the thief is traited for executioner, it’d be about 1500 damage crits under 50%, and about 2400 (roughly dancing dagger damage) under 10%, meaning it’d finish off someone running away with extremely low health, but wouldn’t be useful for just doing lots of ranged damage… but enough ranged damage to harass someone if your swap cooldown isn’t up. I guarantee you’d see a lot more smart play and a lot less pistol whip spam if some damage was on the other skills.