Guild Wars 2

Take extra poison stacks off potent poison and if necessary take poison off panic strike (probably not needed after the potent change). This is aids and has gone unchecked for too long. Players are being carried like crazy by this which is obviously a bad thing.

Author’s note: I personally have no issues dealing with this build. However just because I can beat it doesn’t make it balanced, it’s still a stupidly easy build with just about no risk and way too much payoff.

I’d say discuss but there’s no discussion necessary to determine that something ought to be done.

It’s a viable build that isn’t OP, it has so many counters on almost every Meta/off Meta build hat it’s funny. The build is shut down with anyone having a Condi cleanse or two and knowing how the V key works.

Literally any projectile hate shuts it down, and competent player knowing how to properly Condi cleanse and not panic shuts it down, and one that can Dodge or use any other defensive skill can shut it down.

But I know some people have problem dying to players that as they say spam 1.

Ario.8964:

…I personally have no issues dealing with this build. However just because I can beat it doesn’t make it balanced…

See, this is why I said in another thread I love these kinds of threads.

Sly.9518:

…and knowing how the V key works.

The “V” key can’t save you from immobilize. Unless you’re talking about dodging the actual attack of Infiltrator’s Strike, which is instant. It can also be spammed more than the amount of dodges and cleanses pretty much anyone besides support ele has. I’m not sure you know the playstyle of which the OP is speaking.

This is what he means:
-Condition based, can be successful in dire, trailblazers, rabid, vipers…anything with condi as primary stat.
-Infiltrator’s strike – immobilizes (adds 2 stacks of poison)
-Dodge on top of victim after IS (caltrops is dropped, torment, cripple, and another bleed from lotus training)
-Infiltrator’s Return to avoid trading damage.
-Rinse, repeat.

Turk.5460:

Sly.9518:

…and knowing how the V key works.

The “V” key can’t save you from immobilize. Unless you’re talking about dodging the actual attack of Infiltrator’s Strike, which is instant. It can also be spammed more than the amount of dodges and cleanses pretty much anyone besides support ele has. I’m not sure you know the playstyle of which the OP is speaking.

This is what he means:
-Condition based, can be successful in dire, trailblazers, rabid, vipers…anything with condi as primary stat.
-Infiltrator’s strike – immobilizes (adds 2 stacks of poison)
-Dodge on top of victim after IS (caltrops is dropped, torment, cripple, and another bleed from lotus training)
-Infiltrator’s Return to avoid trading damage.
-Rinse, repeat.

Go ahead try and spam it see how much an issue if you have for actual gameplay, The build is so easily shut down and you can dodge the initial infiltrators strike and maybe Insta cast but it’s easy to dodge.

I know how the gameplay works I played it to see what it was all about and it was easily shut down by almost every Meta build since they all come with the full package to deal with it without even having to change anything.

Like I said any Compton player can easily shut it down , like I stated previously I beat up on the top 70 players I was kind how Opia was and how he was killing top 20 players with ease with it yet I shut him down every single time but once on multiple classes and I am a PVP nobody must be so OP wouldn’t it

Wait, people are actually afraid of this build?

just wait until you start getting 1-2 shot by DEs…

Muhuhuhahahahaha…. (evil lough) xD

Volrath.1473:

just wait until you start getting 1-2 shot by DEs…

Muhuhuhahahahaha…. (evil lough) xD

Thats how I rolled last weekend, took the S/D poison build and gave it a rifle. Kneel, spam 2. 20 stacks of poison.

S/D relies on constant teleport to target. AoE, traps, wells, cleave etc.

Then use ranged attacks to pressure them. Wait for 8+ stacks of poison and then cleanse.

Stealth and counter attack (they require target).

All panic strike/potent poison do is make the DA line a good choice for both condi and power builds.

learn to cleanse, poison is one stack

kitten its not rocket science

The times I have seen sword thieves in WvW in the last 6 months I can literally count on one hand and I would still have enough fingers left to hold a beer.

@alchemyst, in pvp where you can’t just outkite someone playing s/d condi because holding a point matters yes they are. It’s a very strong build that has carried many a player into leaderboards and higher ratings where they obviously don’t belong.

@everyone else telling me how to fight this. I already know how. I do not have any issues fighting condi thief because the build I use is very strong vs them. Sure this build isn’t dictating the way a game goes just by existing but it gives off way too much reward and payoff for the lack of skill required. Steal 2 dodge by itself is enough to kill many players if they are caught without a way to cleanse 6 condis at once and that’s without follow up. It’s like turret engi was, it wasn’t destroying the game as most people with a brain could handle it but it’s payoff was too much for pressing 3 buttons and going afk.

Dawdler, in wvw it’s not likely to appear because people in wvw spec for dueling which means lots of condi clear and such plus s/d condi is not a 1v1 build so it’d get wrecked by 1v1 builds. Also power is dominant in wvw because people have the available stats to make burst builds that have damage beyond what any condi build could achieve whilest being able to allocate a small amount to tank stats as well. This is honestly just a pvp issue and it’s because of the lack of build optimization available as people are stuck with one build they can use because there’s not enough customization options there to change it up and allow for different builds. Condi takes advantage of that because it doesn’t suffer from lack of damage in pvp due to it’s ability to bypass prot, endure pain type skills, etc.
Spills beer … Rip keyboard 2k17

I made a build that I can play that counters it. That’s why it’s not a problem for me. But that’s 1 build on one profession in the whole game without fully gimping yourself to not die instantly to 2 buttons. I go on mes and condi thief is gg. Engi it’s gg.

The payoff is how ridiculously powerful it is in relation to every other build in the meta atm. If you don’t see that 2 buttons being pushed and it being enough to kill anyone not fully specced for condi removal with full cds available is a bad thing for this game then I’m not sure what to tell you. It shouldn’t be that difficult of a concept for people to grasp, it’s a faceroll build that does too much for the skill necessary to play it. Ergo, it should be nerfed. That’s how balance works my friend. If people want to play easy builds then they shouldn’t get very far, if they play a build that requires timing and skill then they get the wins.

That’s not really a good argument. All builds have an difficulty to reward ratio. That reward, however, changes a lot when people don’t know how to fight a particular build because it is new.

You’re assuming that Anet should balance around an outsize reward that occurs only when they fight people who don’t know how to play—or choose not to take cleanse—and who are fighting a weapon set (sword mainhand) that until recently wasn’t common or even played. That isn’t balance. That is rewarding players who refuse to adapt.

As to your issue, where a condi thief took down your team but you could beat them. That is when you say, “I’ll focus on shutting down that thief.” It isn’t like you, platinum ranked thief, has no ability to refocus your efforts for maximum effect. If your team is dead no thief can solo the entire enemy team. So save your teammates. Carry them. Tell them they should take more cleanse in the future if they want to beat those kinds of builds (need more defense when you don’t understand what you’re fighting).

The build should be applying poison on steal so really it’s the same as before, but slightly stronger poison.

So if you could handle this kind of Lotus Thief (all those cover condis) before you can handle this build now.

This build works well when your enemy can’t put pressure on you. Once it starts blowing initiative and endurance on defenses it puts out a lot less damage. Similar to P/P in some respects. If you take the burst it will hurt a lot. If you can counter the burst and put pressure on the thief they will be forced to disengage or lose.

meh leave it as is, let me have my platinum for once

saerni.2584:

The build should be applying poison on steal so really it’s the same as before, but slightly stronger poison.

So if you could handle this kind of Lotus Thief (all those cover condis) before you can handle this build now.

This build works well when your enemy can’t put pressure on you. Once it starts blowing initiative and endurance on defenses it puts out a lot less damage. Similar to P/P in some respects. If you take the burst it will hurt a lot. If you can counter the burst and put pressure on the thief they will be forced to disengage or lose.

Ignore this post, you are only allowed to panic.
Especially if you are playing against me . .
please?

Ario.8964:

Cute from someone who isn’t even rated. But as long as you want to attack my rating (which btw was 1624 last season so mid plat is a more accurate representation than the new season going on atm before everyone’s ratings settle in) let me paint you a picture: Solo for every match, placements go 5/5 due to entire team wiping against a condi thief cause they don’t know what a clear is. Proceed to fight my up from gold 3 where I was placed due to that and have now gone back up to 1501. Oh and because you think it’s just a rating problem then look at all the condi thieves rated up at 1650+. There are maybe 2 thieves up there who haven’t played condi to get where they are. The rest got carried.

As per d/p, sure it’s stronger but it filters out bads with the fact that it actually takes skill to play and pull off at a high level (Hence why sind uses it). The argument isn’t that it’s the best build or that it’s the god mode of thief. Merely that it’s performance is too high for a lack of skill required.

I’m gonna tell you a secret. Some people have multiple accounts.

Solori.6025:

Ignore this post, you are only allowed to panic.
Especially if you are playing against me . .
please?

I’m fairly sure “fear is the mind killer” is an apt line here. :-p Here’s a mind set that I think aptly describes thief:

It’s not the build that kills you. Not at first. It’s the knowledge that you, powerful and mighty, are no longer the hunter but the hunted. As you struggle in vain to strike your enemy they dance around you effortlessly, picking you apart piece by piece. Vanishing into the ether the only glimpse of them is when you are under attack. They are always behind you, above you, beside you—never where you expect them to be. Suddenly, you see them for one final moment, as the finisher comes crashing down.

You can down someone with just steal & dodge.

The build allows players to perform at a level above their actual skill level.

That’s a problem.

Azukas.1426:

You can down someone with just steal & dodge.

The build allows players to perform at a level above their actual skill level.

That’s a problem.

Really? kill someone off of Steal and a Dodge? Let’s see trained Steal is 3 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, and Dodge is 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment. I highly doubt that is killing anyone since cleanses are a thing, unless you are implying in your scenario that they have Spider Venom active which would buff it up to 5 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment, which at that point is more skills than just astral and Dodge, and breaks you 2 button idea of killing someone.

This is all under the impression that Cleanses aren’t being used, which all Meta and viable Off Meta builds have more than enough cleanses built in.

So yeah it’s not an issue since once the initial Burst is cleansed the Thief is waiting for CDs and Endurance to regent for the next Burst, which is pretty much true of any class that fails a Burst.

But players aren’t supposed to be able to completely negate Condi builds its why there are Cleanses and Heals in game to help mitigate the damage but not completely shut it down.

Edit forgot the trained confusion if taken.

Again this is just a matter of build wars when it comes down to how well it gets countered or not. As is the case with most condition builds.

Against an off-meta pick? It’s basically an “I win” spec. Otherwise? It’s nearly pointless as far as advantages go.

Ario.8964:

I made a build that I can play that counters it. That’s why it’s not a problem for me.

me 2 the meta d/p build with marauder gear and 2 rings from soldier i think i smashed the s/d build he didnt even manage to get my hp half way down.

why when something else is good beside d/p it has to go?

wanna know more amazing build then this crap?
double short bow with energy on weapon swap sigil and stamina sigil and then just put choking gas everywhere and dodge around like a complete kitten if ur winning that blob fight u can pretty much dodge endless in ur choking gas fields or just dodge and u get tons of bags and its so kitten easy..

i sometimes do this when enemy server is terrible and a 1 push i just hop around and nothing every touch me

If people are going into Pvp without having a build that is able handle multiple situations/ build types that isn’t an issue of the Spec being OP or Overtuned that’s an issue of someone or building properly, the viable non Meta builds are just as potent it comes down to building properly.

It’s safe to say players will see both Power and Condi throughout the whole time playing Pvp and WvW and if they don’t build to be able to offer the best terms of survival from both that is on them not building for the best outcome, which is winning.

People seem to think it’s taboo to build for optimal survival with counterplay, I only run 2 cleanses and have no issues with Condi builds or power builds.

On this build the only condi application you have is dodge and maybe steal if traited. S/D has no synergy with condi (other than dancing dagger), the only skills that will be useful are 3 and 4. At that point, considering there’s probably going to be little to no direct damage output, all you have to worry about is cleansing properly. Do not cleanse after getting a few condis on you. Instead, be patient and wait for the initial burst to be over, then cleanse. At this point they’re annoying at worst.

Sly.9518:

Azukas.1426:

You can down someone with just steal & dodge.

The build allows players to perform at a level above their actual skill level.

That’s a problem.

Really? kill someone off of Steal and a Dodge? Let’s see trained Steal is 3 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, and Dodge is 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment. I highly doubt that is killing anyone since cleanses are a thing, unless you are implying in your scenario that they have Spider Venom active which would buff it up to 5 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment, which at that point is more skills than just astral and Dodge, and breaks you 2 button idea of killing someone.

This is all under the impression that Cleanses aren’t being used, which all Meta and viable Off Meta builds have more than enough cleanses built in.

So yeah it’s not an issue since once the initial Burst is cleansed the Thief is waiting for CDs and Endurance to regent for the next Burst, which is pretty much true of any class that fails a Burst.

But players aren’t supposed to be able to completely negate Condi builds its why there are Cleanses and Heals in game to help mitigate the damage but not completely shut it down.

Edit forgot the trained confusion if taken.

You are missing the entire point. If you can be downed by just a steal & dodge that mean you HAVE to clear or counter via clears or heal what do you do when they actually start using their initiative and utilities?

You do know Inf strike & dodge does 1/3rd of your health if you don’t clear right? Do that a few times and your opponent HAS to burn his heals + clears to not die. That’s when you hit em with the 2 > Dodge > Steal > Dodge > Inf Return burst. It’s pretty much instant and can 100-0 anyone in seconds while you are 900-1200 units away in pure safety.

The build is a problem.

Azukas.1426:

Sly.9518:

Azukas.1426:

You can down someone with just steal & dodge.

The build allows players to perform at a level above their actual skill level.

That’s a problem.

Really? kill someone off of Steal and a Dodge? Let’s see trained Steal is 3 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, and Dodge is 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment. I highly doubt that is killing anyone since cleanses are a thing, unless you are implying in your scenario that they have Spider Venom active which would buff it up to 5 Poison, 5 Confusion, 1 Weakness, 1 Bleed, 1 Cripple and 1 Torment, which at that point is more skills than just astral and Dodge, and breaks you 2 button idea of killing someone.

This is all under the impression that Cleanses aren’t being used, which all Meta and viable Off Meta builds have more than enough cleanses built in.

So yeah it’s not an issue since once the initial Burst is cleansed the Thief is waiting for CDs and Endurance to regent for the next Burst, which is pretty much true of any class that fails a Burst.

But players aren’t supposed to be able to completely negate Condi builds its why there are Cleanses and Heals in game to help mitigate the damage but not completely shut it down.

Edit forgot the trained confusion if taken.

You are missing the entire point. If you can be downed by just a steal & dodge that mean you HAVE to clear or counter via clears or heal what do you do when they actually start using their initiative and utilities?

You do know Inf strike & dodge does 1/3rd of your health if you don’t clear right? Do that a few times and your opponent HAS to burn his heals + clears to not die. That’s when you hit em with the 2 > Dodge > Steal > Dodge > Inf Return burst. It’s pretty much instant and can 100-0 anyone in seconds while you are 900-1200 units away in pure safety.

The build is a problem.

I broke it down they can’t be downed with just a Steal and a Dodge, it takes using more, go re-read what I typed.

Steal and a Dodge will only put 3 Poison, 5 Conusion, 1 Weakness, 1 Bleed, 1 Torment and 1 Cripple on the player. That combo will do less than 1k total per tick, I have tested this out, when a top 70 player last season tried claiming how OP it was and made similar claims so I sat there with Zerker Amulet on and let him steal and Dodge over me i didn’t have to cleanse it and I was well over 8k HP when the damaging Condis ended.

The only time it will become lethal is if Venoms are used on top of it, which guess what are Utilities.

Your original statement was and I Quote “You can down someone with just steal & dodge.”

Now you are claiming Inf Strike and Return into it and multiple dodges. Those Goalposts seem very mobile now.

And you seem to think using cleanses for what hey are designed for is a bad thing, newsflash cleanses are there to cleanse Condis….. the build isn’t a problem people not wanting to play well is the problem.

Elxdark.9702:

Whoever thinks this build is not broken is either a kitten or is getting carried by it.

The build is not healthy for pvp, it doesn’t matter if it has counters or if you can beat it, such low skill gameplay should not be rewarded so easily as is condi thief at the moment.

A build doesn’t have to be meta to get nerfed, in fact anet does balance around average pvp players so they don’t care about top pvp so the argument of " condi thief dies to every meta build" doesn’t even matter here.

Remember dh after hot? it was incredibly powerful for soloq, remember everyone rerolling dhs? why? because it was low risk and high reward and EASY to perform, same as condi thief, a build that lets the user take advantage of broken mechanics to hide that they are terrible at this game.

I don’t know how EU pvp is but at least in NA 8/10 of my matches are with multiple condi thieves (plat 2-3).

Why do I win every single game against a condi s/d thief if it’s so overpowered, with the rare exception where my team just plain sucks at rotations, focusing targets, afks, or dcs?

S/d condition at this point is one of a handful of builds that arguably work better with core.

Take DA/Acro/Tr and you can outperform the DrD version of the same having more reliable condition cleanses , access to vigor and swiftness and the ability to take don’t stop rather then impaling lotus .

The SwindlerE trait is significant in that it can reset steal instantly so you can apply all of those on steal effects. This also happens to work very well with S/d power where you can double up on the SOH stun aand mug followup.

I see no reason why one of the builds that DOES work core suddenly needs a nerf only a month or two after people finally started using it again. We do not need everyone back to d/p and I find it odd that when d/p made up 80 percent of the builds those that played it complained about a lack of build diversity and no sooner do we see the same then they call for nerfs .

If s/d condition takes over the meta where it about all that people play it THEN that there a problem.

So alot of s/d thieves are having fun with this build, its winning them games, but not as many games as the d/p meta thief.
What does this mean? It means players know how to deal with it
So why do you need to nerf it?

In case you didn’t know, PvP is a competitive arena, and how do you stay competitive? You adapt, you use the skills/utilities/traits that the game has provided and deal with this build just like how the majority of the players deal with it

I really think its a L2P issue, can you please leave these s/d thieves alone and let them have their fun?

Asur.9178:

Elxdark.9702:

Whoever thinks this build is not broken is either a kitten or is getting carried by it.

The build is not healthy for pvp, it doesn’t matter if it has counters or if you can beat it, such low skill gameplay should not be rewarded so easily as is condi thief at the moment.

A build doesn’t have to be meta to get nerfed, in fact anet does balance around average pvp players so they don’t care about top pvp so the argument of " condi thief dies to every meta build" doesn’t even matter here.

Remember dh after hot? it was incredibly powerful for soloq, remember everyone rerolling dhs? why? because it was low risk and high reward and EASY to perform, same as condi thief, a build that lets the user take advantage of broken mechanics to hide that they are terrible at this game.

I don’t know how EU pvp is but at least in NA 8/10 of my matches are with multiple condi thieves (plat 2-3).

Why do I win every single game against a condi s/d thief if it’s so overpowered, with the rare exception where my team just plain sucks at rotations, focusing targets, afks, or dcs?

I do win games too.

It doesn’t matter at all, you can go against 5 condi thieves and you will win, ranked is a matter of luck/carry if you get decent people you will probably win if you don’t then you will have to carry, at the end it really doesn’t matter vs whatever build you’re against the result will be the same.

What I’m talking is not about if you can beat it or not, a build that relies so little in effort from the player to be rewarded that easily is not good for the game, that’s all.

Keyang.3729:

So alot of s/d thieves are having fun with this build, its winning them games, but not as many games as the d/p meta thief.
What does this mean? It means players know how to deal with it
So why do you need to nerf it?

In case you didn’t know, PvP is a competitive arena, and how do you stay competitive? You adapt, you use the skills/utilities/traits that the game has provided and deal with this build just like how the majority of the players deal with it

I really think its a L2P issue, can you please leave these s/d thieves alone and let them have their fun?

oh yea super fun, pressing 2 steal and dodge seems a lot of fun.

And please, separate s/d from s/d condi thief, it’s waaaaaaaay different gameplay than just smashing your #2 key.

This game has literally nothing compared to competitive lol please and this build proves it.

babazhook.6805:

S/d condition at this point is one of a handful of builds that arguably work better with core.

Take DA/Acro/Tr and you can outperform the DrD version of the same having more reliable condition cleanses , access to vigor and swiftness and the ability to take don’t stop rather then impaling lotus .

The SwindlerE trait is significant in that it can reset steal instantly so you can apply all of those on steal effects. This also happens to work very well with S/d power where you can double up on the SOH stun aand mug followup.

I see no reason why one of the builds that DOES work core suddenly needs a nerf only a month or two after people finally started using it again. We do not need everyone back to d/p and I find it odd that when d/p made up 80 percent of the builds those that played it complained about a lack of build diversity and no sooner do we see the same then they call for nerfs .

If s/d condition takes over the meta where it about all that people play it THEN that there a problem.

s/d has nothing to do with this build, it is just for the fact that the poison from panic strike (intended or not) procs everytime you immobilize a target + potent poison make s/d (specifically #2) a must have for poison builds.

I don’t know how I need to explain this but I will say it again, this build will never be in 5v5 meta, get it this only works on soloq because people are clueless and don’t know how to react, the main problem with this build is that it requires 0 effort from the player to be as effective as any other build.

Obviously a good d/p thief will outplay the kitten of this build but d/p thief actually requires the player to think before playing it while s/d condi you’re fine if you press 2 steal and dodge, your enemy will eventually die.

Elxdark.9702:

What I’m talking is not about if you can beat it or not, a build that relies so little in effort from the player to be rewarded that easily is not good for the game, that’s all.

Lol. If you can counter it and beat it or not is irrelevant in PvP? What?!

I see you think the DE, as presented in the demo, has potential place in competitive PvP…I see where you’re coming from.

Carry on…..

Asur.9178:

Elxdark.9702:

What I’m talking is not about if you can beat it or not, a build that relies so little in effort from the player to be rewarded that easily is not good for the game, that’s all.

Lol. If you can counter it and beat it or not is irrelevant in PvP? What?!

I see you think the DE, as presented in the demo, has potential place in competitive PvP…I see where you’re coming from.

Carry on…..

Where did I say that? or maybe you took Helseth’s misunderstood words which I think you did.

I said MAYBE, look read this, M A Y B E Deadeye could work, who knows?

About this thread I’m done, I’m basically replying to people who have no idea how to play this game I already explained my point and you still don’t understand it so glhf.

Elxdark, Azukas. I’m glad people with sense of game health showed up and realize the fact that something doesn’t have to be god mode to be too strong for it’s needed effort.

Also to the people binding s/d and s/d condi: S/d is a very high skill ceiling set and I would love to see it as meta (My favorite build is s/d) because a build that can compete with d/p while requiring high skill is a good thing for this game (Think back to when d/p executioner and s/d acro were the top 2 thief builds. It was a competitive choice but there was no easier version to play) The condi variant requires little skill IF ANY to play at a plat level. If you need evidence, look at how many people have swapped to thief and play like garbage but end up in very high tiers due to how much the build carries them.

Elxdark.9702:

…I’m basically replying to people who have no idea how to play this game…

You’re the one who thinks condi s/d is overpowered m’ate, not us. Lmfao.

Condi s/d is no different than all the other condi spam builds out there. If you wanna complain about condi s/d, go complain about condi builds in general.

Elxdark.9702:

babazhook.6805:

S/d condition at this point is one of a handful of builds that arguably work better with core.

Take DA/Acro/Tr and you can outperform the DrD version of the same having more reliable condition cleanses , access to vigor and swiftness and the ability to take don’t stop rather then impaling lotus .

The SwindlerE trait is significant in that it can reset steal instantly so you can apply all of those on steal effects. This also happens to work very well with S/d power where you can double up on the SOH stun aand mug followup.

I see no reason why one of the builds that DOES work core suddenly needs a nerf only a month or two after people finally started using it again. We do not need everyone back to d/p and I find it odd that when d/p made up 80 percent of the builds those that played it complained about a lack of build diversity and no sooner do we see the same then they call for nerfs .

If s/d condition takes over the meta where it about all that people play it THEN that there a problem.

s/d has nothing to do with this build, it is just for the fact that the poison from panic strike (intended or not) procs everytime you immobilize a target + potent poison make s/d (specifically #2) a must have for poison builds

I don’t know how I need to explain this but I will say it again, this build will never be in 5v5 meta, get it this only works on soloq because people are clueless and don’t know how to react, the main problem with this build is that it requires 0 effort from the player to be as effective as any other build.

Obviously a good d/p thief will outplay the kitten of this build but d/p thief actually requires the player to think before playing it while s/d condi you’re fine if you press 2 steal and dodge, your enemy will eventually die.

Claiming that all a person does in S/d is spam 2 and they are effective as any other build is nonsense.

Immob adds all of ONE stack of poison on an immob. If you trait potent poison yuou will get two stacks of poison. This will cost you 5 ini. If anyone thinks this an effective way of fighting they do not understand how condition builds work.

That 5 ini will get you all of some 1600 damage over 5 seconds. I can get more damage then that on a single AA attack on d/p. I can get more then that with 4 ini on Heartseeker. I get more on shadowshot.

No good player spams heartseeker and no good player is going to just spam s/d number 2.

I think there a wee bit too much self importance that goes on here when people who play power insist they are more skillfull. I play power and condition both It does NOT TAKE more skill to press a button on a power build then it does on a condition build.

It all about knowing how to manage INI and when it approriate to use one skill over another. It simply FALSE to claim someone spamming 2 on an s/d build to stack a grand total of 6 poison before all 15 ini used up is HARDLY going to be effective as any other build. I am getting oddles more damage then that off an unload which is just as easy to use and can cost as little as 3 ini.

babazhook.6805:

Elxdark.9702:

babazhook.6805:

S/d condition at this point is one of a handful of builds that arguably work better with core.

Take DA/Acro/Tr and you can outperform the DrD version of the same having more reliable condition cleanses , access to vigor and swiftness and the ability to take don’t stop rather then impaling lotus .

The SwindlerE trait is significant in that it can reset steal instantly so you can apply all of those on steal effects. This also happens to work very well with S/d power where you can double up on the SOH stun aand mug followup.

I see no reason why one of the builds that DOES work core suddenly needs a nerf only a month or two after people finally started using it again. We do not need everyone back to d/p and I find it odd that when d/p made up 80 percent of the builds those that played it complained about a lack of build diversity and no sooner do we see the same then they call for nerfs .

If s/d condition takes over the meta where it about all that people play it THEN that there a problem.

s/d has nothing to do with this build, it is just for the fact that the poison from panic strike (intended or not) procs everytime you immobilize a target + potent poison make s/d (specifically #2) a must have for poison builds

I don’t know how I need to explain this but I will say it again, this build will never be in 5v5 meta, get it this only works on soloq because people are clueless and don’t know how to react, the main problem with this build is that it requires 0 effort from the player to be as effective as any other build.

Obviously a good d/p thief will outplay the kitten of this build but d/p thief actually requires the player to think before playing it while s/d condi you’re fine if you press 2 steal and dodge, your enemy will eventually die.

Claiming that all a person does in S/d is spam 2 and they are effective as any other build is nonsense.

Immob adds all of ONE stack of poison on an immob. If you trait potent poison yuou will get two stacks of poison. This will cost you 5 ini. If anyone thinks this an effective way of fighting they do not understand how condition builds work.

That 5 ini will get you all of some 1600 damage over 5 seconds. I can get more damage then that on a single AA attack on d/p. I can get more then that with 4 ini on Heartseeker. I get more on shadowshot.

No good player spams heartseeker and no good player is going to just spam s/d number 2.

I think there a wee bit too much self importance that goes on here when people who play power insist they are more skillfull. I play power and condition both It does NOT TAKE more skill to press a button on a power build then it does on a condition build.

It all about knowing how to manage INI and when it approriate to use one skill over another. It simply FALSE to claim someone spamming 2 on an s/d build to stack a grand total of 6 poison before all 15 ini used up is HARDLY going to be effective as any other build. I am getting oddles more damage then that off an unload which is just as easy to use and can cost as little as 3 ini.

You just said it, no good player will spam a skill but with this build it doesn’t matter.

False? I’d record myself doing it but I don’t want to get cancer by doing it but basically is 2-steal dodge you have 5 poison retreat 2 and dodge again 7 poison, you clean them nvm because I can use spider venom 2 and dodge again and stack the 7 poison again LUL.

Playing power does require more skill because you’re doing physical damage, that means you have to attack constantly to create pressure, while on condi you stack your kitten and wait for the enemy to clean it up and repeat.

It’s really funny how you all are defending a kittened spec that every decent player knows it is broken.

Elxdark.9702:

…while on condi you stack your kitten and wait for the enemy to clean it up and repeat.

Isn’t that how you play condi builds?
Oh no, he cleansed my conditions, i better AA chain him!

I’ve been playing this build in WvW. 100% poison duration, rune of thorns, etc. It’s very fun! And I know I can beat the build itself on my normal thief build. But not everything is thief v. thief.

And this build is far overstacked and overtuned, regardless of how fun it is. It is incredibly potent in 1v1 and small scale roaming. I effortlessly killed a number of opponents who are normally a Thief’s soft and hard-counter. And these weren’t potatoes, they were competent roamers from established roaming guilds. A diamond ranked player gave me the best salt whispers I’ve seen in weeks!

I’m going to continue playing this build for a while, because again, its very fun, and its a nice change of pace from power S/D – but even so, I hope something gets changed, be it poison application or lotus cover condis. It should not be this easy.

(not sure why this got moved OUT of the Thief forums and into GW2 discussion…?)

Elxdark.9702:

babazhook.6805:

Elxdark.9702:

babazhook.6805:

S/d condition at this point is one of a handful of builds that arguably work better with core.

Take DA/Acro/Tr and you can outperform the DrD version of the same having more reliable condition cleanses , access to vigor and swiftness and the ability to take don’t stop rather then impaling lotus .

The SwindlerE trait is significant in that it can reset steal instantly so you can apply all of those on steal effects. This also happens to work very well with S/d power where you can double up on the SOH stun aand mug followup.

I see no reason why one of the builds that DOES work core suddenly needs a nerf only a month or two after people finally started using it again. We do not need everyone back to d/p and I find it odd that when d/p made up 80 percent of the builds those that played it complained about a lack of build diversity and no sooner do we see the same then they call for nerfs .

If s/d condition takes over the meta where it about all that people play it THEN that there a problem.

s/d has nothing to do with this build, it is just for the fact that the poison from panic strike (intended or not) procs everytime you immobilize a target + potent poison make s/d (specifically #2) a must have for poison builds

I don’t know how I need to explain this but I will say it again, this build will never be in 5v5 meta, get it this only works on soloq because people are clueless and don’t know how to react, the main problem with this build is that it requires 0 effort from the player to be as effective as any other build.

Obviously a good d/p thief will outplay the kitten of this build but d/p thief actually requires the player to think before playing it while s/d condi you’re fine if you press 2 steal and dodge, your enemy will eventually die.

Claiming that all a person does in S/d is spam 2 and they are effective as any other build is nonsense.

Immob adds all of ONE stack of poison on an immob. If you trait potent poison yuou will get two stacks of poison. This will cost you 5 ini. If anyone thinks this an effective way of fighting they do not understand how condition builds work.

That 5 ini will get you all of some 1600 damage over 5 seconds. I can get more damage then that on a single AA attack on d/p. I can get more then that with 4 ini on Heartseeker. I get more on shadowshot.

No good player spams heartseeker and no good player is going to just spam s/d number 2.

I think there a wee bit too much self importance that goes on here when people who play power insist they are more skillfull. I play power and condition both It does NOT TAKE more skill to press a button on a power build then it does on a condition build.

It all about knowing how to manage INI and when it approriate to use one skill over another. It simply FALSE to claim someone spamming 2 on an s/d build to stack a grand total of 6 poison before all 15 ini used up is HARDLY going to be effective as any other build. I am getting oddles more damage then that off an unload which is just as easy to use and can cost as little as 3 ini.

You just said it, no good player will spam a skill but with this build it doesn’t matter.

False? I’d record myself doing it but I don’t want to get cancer by doing it but basically is 2-steal dodge you have 5 poison retreat 2 and dodge again 7 poison, you clean them nvm because I can use spider venom 2 and dodge again and stack the 7 poison again LUL.

Playing power does require more skill because you’re doing physical damage, that means you have to attack constantly to create pressure, while on condi you stack your kitten and wait for the enemy to clean it up and repeat.

It’s really funny how you all are defending a kittened spec that every decent player knows it is broken.

Thats how condition builds work!. You use the skill that applies conditions. If a skill does not apply conditions then what are you trying to accomplish for INI spent?

You have no w suddenly went from “spamming 2 over and over again” to using 2 steal and dodges. Guess what!? Thats where the conditions come from and that is how condition builds conntinously pressure an opponent. So you have more skills that do power then a condition build has that applis conditions and of a suddent that makes you more skillfull?

Its a fracking BUTTON on a keyboard. I press 2 to get heartseeker and it no more difficult then pressing 3 to get Shadowshot. It is NOT more skillfull. I dodge on power it takes the same amount of skill to dodge on Condition . it not more skillfull. In WvW I can get 6k on my Bounding dodges. Thtas a heck of a lot more damage then impaling lotus will get you.

I find it funny how you defend specs like d/p JUST BECAUSE everyone else plays it and it considered meta. As to your self proclaimed DECENCY get over yourself. Just because you play power it does not make you more decent and it does not make you more skillful. I got a lot more buttons on my car dashboard then i had in the car I owned prior to this one. It does not mean I am a more skillful driver.

Finally in response to your nonsense about “sitting around doing nothing” as the conditions do their work. More hubris.

In order to get the same amount of damage out of initiave OR DODGES expended, a condition s/d build has to make more attacks then a power build. Not less.

I can get ~10 thousand damage off a single AA cycle with d/p power. In order to get that sort of damge off s/d multiple attacks have to be made and then you have to ensure you maintain cover conditions so the damaging are not cleansed.

A simple example. While this WvW related , it does speak to the Plus 1 nature of a thief.

A person is involved in a battle and fled low on defenses blocks and health and you run into him fleeing. The guy has about 6 k health left and you use P/P unload. 9 times out of ten the enemy downed and it only took one button.

You come acorss the same on your s/d condition build and decide you are going to spam #2 to get your poison stacks on and finish him with poison.

You are NOT going to kill him in a single attack with that poison. In fact for the first while your power damage will be higher. If you are trying to finish him with poison its going to take several seconds.

That p/p unload build can “stand around doing nothing” because the enemy is downed after a single unload. That s/d build has a bit more work to do.

Adding a single stack of poison on an attack (two if traited in potent) IF one traits for it in the DA line is hardly overtuning. if it overtuning then any attack that adds a single condition or two is overtuning.

I think I triggered your inner condi pride, say whatever you want it has been a fact since launch that condi builds take less effort than power specs if you can’t see the difference then we better stop now.

I’m not defending d/p lol, d/p drd is the best build right now in 5v5 meta and it should be nerfed too because every other power spec gets deleted by it.

Let’s say condi/power builds take the same effort and blah blah blah, do you really think s/d condi thief takes more skill than d/p power? ask any decent/top player and you will get the same answer.

The problem with this build is that it takes Z E R O effort to be effective, there’s a good reason why a lot of people are playing condi thief you know, maybe and only maybe because it is easy af to use and it is effective vs pugs, the very same happened with DH and look at it after all those nerfs it’s still one of the best solo builds to play.

And btw don’t include WvW here, I’m talking about pvp.

You keep saying zero effort but you haven’t established that it is zero effort.

Babaz is correct that the application of conditions needs to be constant to overcome cleanse and do significant damage. You claim a condi build can stop attacking.

The truth is that a condi build can only stop attacking when the opponent has no cleanse and will die even if you stop attacking.

Arguably some condi builds require more skill to play because condi players need to learn to fight around their opponents cleanse mechanics. If they getting cleansed they are completely shut down.

A power build has to play around blocks, evades, invulns. A condi build has to deal with all of those and resistance and cleanse. Yet power build users insist that they have it much harder when they time a quickness-enhanced unload into a target between blocks or land a CoR.

saerni.2584:

You keep saying zero effort but you haven’t established that it is zero effort.

Babaz is correct that the application of conditions needs to be constant to overcome cleanse and do significant damage. You claim a condi build can stop attacking.

The truth is that a condi build can only stop attacking when the opponent has no cleanse and will die even if you stop attacking.

Arguably some condi builds require more skill to play because condi players need to learn to fight around their opponents cleanse mechanics. If they getting cleansed they are completely shut down.

A power build has to play around blocks, evades, invulns. A condi build has to deal with all of those and resistance and cleanse. Yet power build users insist that they have it much harder when they time a quickness-enhanced unload into a target between blocks or land a CoR.

ok

Let’s change zero effort for little or low ya? much better now?

The only condi build that requires you to use your brain is condi mesmer and guess what there are only a few good condi mesmers in this game maybe because the build actually requires some skill to be effective but condi thief doesn’t.

I can stay all day talking about this but you all will not realize this build isn’t healthy for pvp I must say this is quite funny tho xD

The effort is minimal with this spec. There is no logical reason for you to doubt this. Please have an open mind and look at this from a perspective other than Thief vs. Thief. We know that other thieves don’t usually have a problem with this spec. That is not canon. I haven’t lost to anyone but other thieves in this build. And the amount of kills I am getting just keep getting higher and higher. The sheer chances that every encounter I have is with some sort of potato that managed to get to Gold/Mithril/Diamond is incredibly unlikely. This is how easy it is, and dodging only works against this if you are doing it randomly, otherwise I will take that as you believe dodging headshot is just as easy:

Spider Venom – IS – dodge – IR (6 Conditions)

wait, juke – very easy from the range of IR. At this time either condis are ticking damage or they have used a cleanse. Either way, the 5 initiative you spent is either all back or almost all back.

IS – dodge – IR (5 Conditions)

wait, juke. Did they use another cleanse? Another cooldown used from them, or they are ticking health down more. Your initiative is still full or almost full.

IS – dodge – IR (5 Conditions)

wait, juke. Did they use another cleanse (how are they cleansing 3+ conditions with each skill!?). Oh no! They used resistance! What do we do next will shock you!

Basilisk Venom, Spider Venom, Flanking Strike, Steal, Larcenous Strike, IS, Dodge, IR. – If the steal missed for some reason, more often than not Larcenous Strike will land.

Swap to range and counterattack

Stealth (engi, Mesmer, thief, Druid, etc) and counterattack.

Wait for IS and time a stun and counteract.

Set traps with cc components like launch and knockdown and counter attack.

The fight you described lasts around 30 or more seconds. All without your opponent blocking, dodging, cleansing, stealthing, repositioning, or even attacking.

Sure a S/D build can win, but let’s not pretend that it went from “trash” to op just because Anet gave it 2 poison on immobilize and an extra 300 range on IS.

The counter-options you described are limited per profession, easily dodged, and LoS’d. Its obvious which party is putting forth much more effort…

At least vs. myself – engi, mesmer, and druid stealth were laughably ineffective.
Traps were also ineffective, as their placement tells are incredibly obvious.

I didn’t encounter an issue with your theoretical “wait for IS and time a stun” – as that isn’t a reflexive action. That would be random, because IS isn’t something that has a tell, nor can you react fast enough use a non-instant stun before I lotus evade. The only stuns that were able to get me on my engage were ele static auras. And Ele doesn’t have a kit capable of causing enough damage to stop my rotation while static stunned.

I have a feeling you haven’t even tried using this build. Please give it a go, it is very fun, very trolly. But as I said before, as much fun as I have playing it, it is too forgiving, too easy, and has a lower skill floor than even power DH.

Comparing it to power DH is a pretty low skill floor. :-p