Guild Wars 2

I’m seeing a trend in SA being used in every WvW build that isn’t acro. I love seeing large bursty numbers, but it seems like in order to survive you have to run SA. I don’t like it because I get less damage, and I think this is what contributes to the Thief hate. Not that I care what other players on the opposing team thinks, I just want to be useful, at the same time, playing how I like to. I don’t like being Acro, which is why S/x never works for me. Is there a viable way of playing thief in WvW without the use of SA? I feel like I deal so little damage if I run that.

I honestly wish it was not required. But when you meet a perplexity engi or necro or thief. You will see why it is necessary. Go out there and find out why we all run it.

In the current condi meta, yes…

Do you like watching your character in down state? Do you like your team getting shred and there is nothing you can do about it?

No? Then yes, SA is required.

Same goes for trickery, not much choice….

Nah its not required i dont have any in trickery or sa and i do just fine.

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

You don’t really need it, but it helps and synergizes well with certain builds and weapon-sets

If you’re running Dagger main-hand you get a bit of benefit from SA.

If you’re running Sword main-hand you get a bit of benefit from Acrobatics.

If you’re not going for SA or Acrobatics, you better be really, really good to play pure glass cannon and aware of surprising your opponents rather than getting surprised.

So it seems like you’d go into SA for Shadow Embrace just to clear some condis. So I’m wondering is there a SA build for D/x? 0/6/6/0/2 perhaps? Or maybe I can try 2/6/2/0/2 for Shadow Embrace. I’m currently running a mix of zerk / soldier gear, with wurm runes because I’m poor.

Evalia.7103:

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Sure you do. ONE necro full staff rotation and your’e dead without SA. How do you cure conditions? Shadowstep? 3 every 50 seconds maybe Lyssa runes? – Horrible nowadays for DPS with ferocity nerf. Pain Response? LOL. 2 Points for Shadows Embrace is MINIMUM for WvW. You like fighting multiple people 1v3/4 who are not brain dead? Need 6 for Rejuv. Thief has weak sustain without SA. But don’t believe me go out there in full berserker and ALL DPS traits. Let me know how it goes

Narkodx.1472:

Evalia.7103:

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Sure you do. ONE necro full staff rotation and your’e dead without SA. How do you cure conditions? Shadowstep? 3 every 50 seconds maybe Lyssa runes? – Horrible nowadays for DPS with ferocity nerf. Pain Response? LOL. 2 Points for Shadows Embrace is MINIMUM for WvW. You like fighting multiple people 1v3/4 who are not brain dead? Need 6 for Rejuv. Thief has weak sustain without SA. But don’t believe me go out there in full berserker and ALL DPS traits. Let me know how it goes

Thief has some of the most competitive sustain in the game without SA, I’m not sure where you’re coming from.

Narkodx.1472:

Evalia.7103:

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Sure you do. ONE necro full staff rotation and your’e dead without SA. How do you cure conditions? Shadowstep? 3 every 50 seconds maybe Lyssa runes? – Horrible nowadays for DPS with ferocity nerf. Pain Response? LOL. 2 Points for Shadows Embrace is MINIMUM for WvW. You like fighting multiple people 1v3/4 who are not brain dead? Need 6 for Rejuv. Thief has weak sustain without SA. But don’t believe me go out there in full berserker and ALL DPS traits. Let me know how it goes

I’m running S/D, got enough condition removal by using Sword #2 when required, shadowstep, pain response, signet of agility and withdraw.
But most importantly, with the amount of evades i’m getting from acrobatics, I don’t get hit by them in the first place. And even if I do, I’m always capable of resetting the fight – and probably even better than a SA thief – by simply running away as fast as possible(even if refuge is on cooldown)
But 2/0/0/6/6 is definitely all DPS traits. Just as you say.

For the love of dps, don’t put more than 2pts into SA, tho those 2pts there are very very useful.

I used to run the d/p pvp meta 2/6/0/0/6 in wvw, but it’s pretty squishy (although still my favourite). Since I’ve worked runes of strength into my gear I started running 0/6/6/2/0 and with all the might stacks you build while stealthed + the added 7% bonus from runes + guardstacks and bloodlust stacks you still hit very hard and the survivability is much higher.

Tl;dr: Full or partial SA isn’t required in wvw, but it improves quality of life, albeit at some damage and/or utility loss depending on your previous build (i.e. Trickery boon steal, Trickery interrupts, Acro extra dodge, etc.)

Evalia.7103:

Narkodx.1472:

Evalia.7103:

Is soldier gear required on a thief?
Right, it isn’t. So why should SA be required? Never ran it, and 1v3-4ing quite often.
I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Sure you do. ONE necro full staff rotation and your’e dead without SA. How do you cure conditions? Shadowstep? 3 every 50 seconds maybe Lyssa runes? – Horrible nowadays for DPS with ferocity nerf. Pain Response? LOL. 2 Points for Shadows Embrace is MINIMUM for WvW. You like fighting multiple people 1v3/4 who are not brain dead? Need 6 for Rejuv. Thief has weak sustain without SA. But don’t believe me go out there in full berserker and ALL DPS traits. Let me know how it goes

I’m running S/D, got enough condition removal by using Sword #2 when required, shadowstep, pain response, signet of agility and withdraw.
But most importantly, with the amount of evades i’m getting from acrobatics, I don’t get hit by them in the first place. And even if I do, I’m always capable of resetting the fight – and probably even better than a SA thief – by simply running away as fast as possible(even if refuge is on cooldown)
But 2/0/0/6/6 is definitely all DPS traits. Just as you say.

I hope the last line is a joke? Sarcasm? :|

You guys have your opinion and I have mine. I been roaming in WvW since the game was released. You simply do NOT have the sustain without SA to defeat top tier players on REAL dueling builds. Not garbage zerglings running bearbow. I am talking about a 2k+ Condition damage perplexity thief/necro/engineer. The one where you take 3 grenades and half your health is gone. But whatever, run around with no SA and you will eventually run into those classes/builds and complain that conditions are OP.

For roaming and fighting outnumbered it do make your life easier. There are some builds that doesn’t use it, but I’m usually always 6 deep in SA while I’m roaming WvW.

yeah i hate running SA. TO ME it encourages sloppy gameplay,“oh i took dmg, better go stealth and wait it out” and i dont mean that offensively, but when you go full SA you get a lot of wiggle room with the condi removal, blind, health per second stealth combo.

When you’re in wvw it is a good idea to pop 2 points into it AT LEAST for that condi removal on stealth. It’s not necessary, but if you’re not running a sword set it is pretty helpful. That’s my 2 cents

Shadow Arts has soooooo many good traits that add survivability and longevity, all just in Tier 1.

Shadow’s Embrace
Shadow Protector
Infusion of Shadows
Master of Deception
Cloaked in Shadows
etc.

are all great traits and easily outperform many other traits for other trees. They also tend to add stuff Thieves would otherwise be lacking like reliable condition removal. It’s possible but difficult to get by without them, especially considering how little real utility many of the other traits lines add.

Evalia.7103:

I only ever go in SA tree to get 100% stealth uptime combination for the sneaks inside enemy towers/keeps and that’s it.

Pardon the ignorance since I’m a new thief here, but, how do you go about doing this?

That’s the thing really, you can disengage from a fight, heal and prepare for your next move – all while being under stealth. Without it, it isn’t as easy but it is definitely doable especially with an active heal like Mug and an Active/Passive heal like Pain Response or Assassins reward which isn’t as potent as Shadow Rejuvenation, yet they’re still useful traits for some Sustain.

lol, i have no points into SA (and haven’t for several months now) and i do really well with my thief. i’m a non-stealth thief and i run with large groups of skilled players (GOM server with ASH and WORM). I’ve run D/P and P/P and just recently switched to S/P and P/P. Even in swarms of enemies being acrobatic and skilled with dodges, etc. i am only downed if all of us wipe, and survive the duration of a fight without feeling cowardly whatsoever. L2P is all can say. I have a blast without SA and stealth. just work at it instead of complaining. find a play style you like, and master it. I hated stealthing and feeling cowardly during the first two months after launch, so i changed it when i came back to thief.

VampyreJack.9183:

lol, i have no points into SA (and haven’t for several months now) and i do really well with my thief. i’m a non-stealth thief and i run with large groups of skilled players GOM server with ASH and WORM). I’ve run D/P and P/P and just recently switched to S/P and P/P. Even in swarms of enemies being acrobatic and skilled with dodges, etc. i am only downed if all of us wipe, and survive the duration of a fight without feeling cowardly whatsoever. L2P is all can say. I have a blast without SA and stealth. just work at it instead of complaining. find a play style you like, and master it. I hated stealthing and feeling cowardly during the first two months after launch, so i changed it when i came back to thief.

I bolded the important part. Please use S/P and no points in Shadow Arts as a solo roamer against 2/3 condition classes. Post video result

soloing against 2 to 3 players isn’t easy for any non-stealth class unless those 2-3 players are noobs. also, not that it matters, but i use P/P 2/3rds of the time, and S/P 1/3rd

and i have a generosity sigil in one of my weapons on each set

Narkodx.1472:

You guys have your opinion and I have mine. I been roaming in WvW since the game was released. You simply do NOT have the sustain without SA to defeat top tier players on REAL dueling builds. Not garbage zerglings running bearbow. I am talking about a 2k+ Condition damage perplexity thief/necro/engineer. The one where you take 3 grenades and half your health is gone. But whatever, run around with no SA and you will eventually run into those classes/builds and complain that conditions are OP.

I don’t intend on dueling classes specifically. I do run into the occasional 1v1 because I just happened to step into their territory. And then at some point or another they have like 3 or more teammates that just happen to walk by and I get killed :\. I’m less worried about that and more worried that I won’t be useful in a large or small group. I also don’t intend on actively roaming either. It seems really boring to run long distances by myself. I like small team fights.

ryan.6217:

yeah i hate running SA. TO ME it encourages sloppy gameplay,“oh i took dmg, better go stealth and wait it out” and i dont mean that offensively, but when you go full SA you get a lot of wiggle room with the condi removal, blind, health per second stealth combo.

When you’re in wvw it is a good idea to pop 2 points into it AT LEAST for that condi removal on stealth. It’s not necessary, but if you’re not running a sword set it is pretty helpful. That’s my 2 cents

I agree with this statement, but I guess I’m just being a hipster like that.

Dee Jay.2460:

Shadow Arts has soooooo many good traits that add survivability and longevity, all just in Tier 1.

So it sounds like I should find space for it somewhere to put 2 pts into SA. I’m ok with that. I’ll give it a shot the next time I decide to go into WvW.

Thank you for all the responses!

yes, i don’t do a lot of roaming either, as i love running with my guildies/friends. Don’t need to be SA in that case imo

it’s not needed. i run builds from 6 SA to 0. when solo roaming i prefer to use it since i expect to be in 1vx fights. depends on what you want to do.

I never use to run SA until just last week, I’m sure that 95% of the population of rival servers I’m playing against are all running condi builds hahaha.

I’m guessing the meta below tier 2 might still be power orientated in NA but the meta in tier 1 and 2 is heavy condi. The condi burst is crazier then the power burst. If you simply try to run around without SA you’ll have quite a lot of deaths when you bump into 2+

I personally really wished they would do condi the same way as they did power builds. Lower the base of condi damage and use ferocity and precision so that dire gear isn’t so OP as kitten.

I run 2/6/0/0/6 in WvW. \o/

Thief ain’t kitten if you’re not hitting those big numbers. Though I generally do not roam solo and if I start running into too many condi-bunker, troll losers I switch classes.

Myst.5783:

… if I start running into too many condi-bunker, troll losers I switch classes.

not really a wvwer but .. you are not supposed to win against 1 v 2 or more generally. There never be in mind that someone is gonna “1 beat 2” in high lv pvp.

I guess it’s alright to start with cheese ( SA + p/d ) then start to play a real build after you are used to pvp