Guild Wars 2

DISCLAIMER: People… for kittens sake stop being serious and use some kitten imagination. This thread was suppose to get away from the constant QQ. I understand thakittens all OP and barely makes sense with the thief mechanics. Guess what… idgaf. IF stealth gets nerfed to the point its a waste of space (very unlikely) and Anet decides to replace it (more unlikely), then I might (keyword) take this over to Suggestions (even though it will drown in the stupid). As you can see, the chances for this happening is the same as someone giving you a free legendary (never).

Now that you understand, this thread isn’t about stealth being OP. This isn’t me saying I want it gone. This isn’t me implying a kitten thing. The TL;DR is the first paragraph of the real post. Please read and understand before you post?

Changes are italicized.

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that after a few more months of stealth QQ that Shadow Arts becomes completely useless no matter who you are. How would you redesign it?

I am going to pull an idea out of thin air and call the new traitline: Weapon Master. the point of this is to add more defense through counters that are situational. I thought about these with non-burst in mind. I shall breakdown the traits:

Adept:
Minor: “You’re open!” – Gain 1 Initiative upon evade. ( 1s CD)

I: Cut and Weave – 100% chance next hit taken is glancing blow for 3 seconds on crit. (8s CD)
II: Momentum – 5% damage, crit damage and chance while moving.
III: Throwdown – Stealing from behind knocks down opponent for 2 seconds and damages them. Crits add 1 more second of knockdown instead of increased damage. (I had to put my Aikido in there c:)
IV: Dancing Blade – Sword and Dagger 1 combos continue on block/evade. Lotus Strike and Crippling Strike are unblockable. (10s CD)
V: Shadow Knife – Shadow Knife replaces Scorpion Wire.

• Shadow Knife: Throw a knife that that forces target to Shadow Return to your position, if possible. (shares SW CD)

VI: Residual Signets – Signet recharge time increased by 50%. Passives still available after activation.
VII: Reflexes – 20% chance to evade when attack would have dealt 10% or more of your hp in one hit. (10s CD)

Master
Minor: En Passant – If an attack were to deal 15% or more to you, instead it is evaded and you Shadow Step behind your opponent. (This does not work with Shadow Ram.)

VIII: Reluctance – Pistol Whip is now a combo.

1. Pistol Whip: Smash offhand pistol into your enemy and Stun them (1s). Costs 3 initiative.
2. Blade of Fury: Slice at your enemy repeatedly. Costs 2 initiative.

IX: Defender – 5% of Power is converted into Toughness. (no deduction in stats)
X: Coup De Grace – Augment 3rd attack to the first slot skill when sword or dagger is equipped in main hand.

• Sword: Viper Strike – Stab the arms, legs, pancreas and arteries with 4 blindingly fast stabs. Causes Weakness, Cripple, Poison and 4 stacks of Bleeding. (all 3s)
• Dagger: Turn the Blade – Rip your dagger from the enemy and bleed them profusely. Causes 3 stacks of Bleeding while reapplying Poison (3s).

Grandmaster
Minor: Trigger Happy – 1st slot pistol skill is replaced with Trigger Happy combo.

1. Spray and Pray: Shoot 3 times. 50% chance to cause Vulnerability, Cripple, Weakness or Bleeding every shot.
2. Drill Shot: Shoot a bullet that drills itself into armor and causes vulnerability. 2 stacks of Vulnerability (4s).
3. Pot Shot: Follow up by shooting the Drill Shot that is dug into the armor. The already penetrated armor helps Pot Shot ignore most of the armor so long as it hits it directly. 20% on crit to ignore 75% of armor rating.

XI: Shadow Ram – Shadow Step, Shadow Pursuit and Infiltrator’s Signet Active launches targets. Enemies between you and target are knocked down (1.5s). No damage is dealt. Cooldown for these skills increased by 30%

XII: Reckless Abandon – Increase Initiative costs by 1. Increase damage dealt per Initiative point spent.

Why does the minor need a cool-down?

Its not that big effect to require a cool-down.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion
Its worse then this, yet this does not have a cool-down.

Its mainly for pistol whip. For a second you evade all attacks. So if you timed the flurry right you could possibly gain your initiative back. Besides, this was made on a whim and there is no real design to it.

Daecollo.9578:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion.

and I agree that is a stupid trait.

Zacchary.6183:

Its mainly for pistol whip. For a second you evade all attacks. So if you timed the flurry right you could possibly gain your initiative back. Besides, this was made on a whim and there is no real design to it.

Daecollo.9578:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion.

and I agree that is a stupid trait.

SA doesn’t need a rework its fine as is. One of the best defensive trait lines in game. And caltrops when dodging/swiftness when dodging/might when dodging have absolutely no cooldowns. So what’s your point?

jportell.2197:

Zacchary.6183:

Its mainly for pistol whip. For a second you evade all attacks. So if you timed the flurry right you could possibly gain your initiative back. Besides, this was made on a whim and there is no real design to it.

Daecollo.9578:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion.

and I agree that is a stupid trait.

SA doesn’t need a rework its fine as is. One of the best defensive trait lines in game. And caltrops when dodging/swiftness when dodging/might when dodging have absolutely no cooldowns. So what’s your point?

This is a “What if” thread if you read it. The dodge traits are also on Acrobatics and Trickery lines which are not part of the subject. I use them regularly.

Zacchary.6183:

jportell.2197:

Zacchary.6183:

Its mainly for pistol whip. For a second you evade all attacks. So if you timed the flurry right you could possibly gain your initiative back. Besides, this was made on a whim and there is no real design to it.

Daecollo.9578:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deceptive_Evasion.

and I agree that is a stupid trait.

SA doesn’t need a rework its fine as is. One of the best defensive trait lines in game. And caltrops when dodging/swiftness when dodging/might when dodging have absolutely no cooldowns. So what’s your point?

This is a “What if” thread if you read it. The dodge traits are also on Acrobatics and Trickery lines which are not part of the subject. I use them regularly.

Im referring to daecello griping about DE. I am pointing out several other traits in the game that have absolutely no cooldown. 3 of which are on thief. Thieves get three on dodge traits with no cooldown… Most other classes only get one on dodge trait (Guard/Mesmer/Ranger/Ele) thieves get 3 none of which have cooldown. Griping about DE when asking for things in this great trait line to be changed I think would hurt thieves

Oh well sorry about that lol. :P

I still don’t want my class completely gutted and reworked for the 5th time in a row…

Enough is enough IMO.

Zacchary.6183:

Adept:
Minor: “You’re open!” – Gain 1 Initiative upon evade. (5s CD)

I: Defensive Stance – 10% chance to suffer glancing blows instead while wielding a sword or dagger in the main hand.
II: Momentum – 5% damage, crit damage and chance while moving.
III: Throwdown – Stealing from behind knocks down opponent for 2 seconds and damages them. Crits add 1 more second of knockdown instead of increased damage. (I had to put my Aikido in there c:)
IV: Dancing Blade – Lotus Strike and Crippling Strike are unblockable. (10s CD)
V: Whipwire – Scorpion Wire is replaced with Whipwire and damage is reduced by 50%. Scorpion Wire now slightly lifts target off the ground. If Scorpion Wire cannot pull target to you, you go to target dealing 150% damage.
VI: Residual Signets – Signet recharge time increased by 50%. Passives still available after activation.
VII: Reflexes – 20% chance to evade when attack would have dealt 10% or more of your hp in one hit. (10s CD)

Master
Minor: En Passant – If an attack were to deal 15% or more to you, instead it is evaded and you Shadow Step behind your opponent. (This does not work with Shadow Ram.)

VIII: Reluctance – Pistol Whip is now a combo.

1. Pistol Whip: Smash offhand pistol into your enemy and Stun them (1s). Costs 3 initiative.
2. Blade of Fury: Slash at your enemy repeatedly. Costs 2 initiative.

IX: Defender – 5% of Power is converted into Toughness. (no deduction in stats)
X: Coup De Grace – Augment 3rd attack to the first slot skill when sword or dagger is equipped in main hand.

• Sword: Viper Strike – Stab the arms, legs, pancreas and arteries with 4 blindingly fast stabs. Causes Weakness, Cripple, Poison and 4 stacks of Bleeding. (all 3s)
• Dagger: Turn the Blade – Rip your dagger from the enemy and bleed them profusely. Causes 3 stacks of Bleeding while reapplying Poison (3s).

Grandmaster
Minor: Trigger Happy – 1st slot pistol skill is replaced with Trigger Happy combo.

1. Spray and Pray: Shoot 3 times. 50% chance to cause Vulnerability, Cripple, Weakness or Bleeding every shot.
2. Drill Shot: Shoot a bullet that drills itself into armor and causes vulnerability. 2 stacks of Vulnerability (4s).
3. Pot Shot: Follow up by shooting the Drill Shot that is dug into the armor. The already penetrated armor helps Pot Shot ignore most of the armor so long as it hits it directly. 20% on crit to ignore 75% of armor rating.

XI: Shadow Ram – Shadow Step, Shadow Pursuit and Infiltrator’s Signet Active launches targets. Enemies between you and target are knocked down (1.5s). No damage is dealt. Cooldown for these skills increased by 30%

XII: Reckless Abandon – Increase Initiative costs by 1. Increase damage dealt per Initiative point spent.

You’re Open – No CD or 1s (to avoid the PW issue you pointed out)
Defensive Stance – Will never be slotted. 5% static DR is clearly inferior to your other suggestions. Instead, maybe 3s of 100% glancing blows after a crit, 10s CD? something like that.
Dancing Blade – Do blocks allow an AA chain to continue? I just realized I’ve never noticed, as I tend to stop attacking when someone starts blocking. If blocks do not advance the AA chain, the CD isn’t necessary IMO. If they do, maybe 5-8s CD.
Whipwire – too mechanically complicated, would never be implemented.
En passant – I see the being shadow-stepped behind my target “randomly” as rather disorienting. Like the concept, not sure of the execution.
Reluctance – Again like the concept, but an entire trait dedicated to 1 skill in 1 spec seems too narrow.
Coup De Grace – Do these augment or replace the final strikes current functionality? I’m assuming Augment – Viper strike does too much.
Trigger Happy – Again, a minor trait dedicated entirely to 1 skill on 1 weapon seems too narrow.

The others seem pretty cool – the best of which is Reckless Abandon. I like the idea that you can build a thief to be less spammy and more bursty.

evilapprentice.6379:

You’re Open – No CD or 1s (to avoid the PW issue you pointed out)
Defensive Stance – Will never be slotted. 5% static DR is clearly inferior to your other suggestions. Instead, maybe 3s of 100% glancing blows after a crit, 10s CD? something like that.
Dancing Blade – Do blocks allow an AA chain to continue? I just realized I’ve never noticed, as I tend to stop attacking when someone starts blocking. If blocks do not advance the AA chain, the CD isn’t necessary IMO. If they do, maybe 5-8s CD.
Whipwire – too mechanically complicated, would never be implemented.
En passant – I see the being shadow-stepped behind my target “randomly” as rather disorienting. Like the concept, not sure of the execution.
Reluctance – Again like the concept, but an entire trait dedicated to 1 skill in 1 spec seems too narrow.
Coup De Grace – Do these augment or replace the final strikes current functionality? I’m assuming Augment – Viper strike does too much.
Trigger Happy – Again, a minor trait dedicated entirely to 1 skill on 1 weapon seems too narrow.

The others seem pretty cool – the best of which is Reckless Abandon. I like the idea that you can build a thief to be less spammy and more bursty.

1. I see what you mean. Don’t know why I didn’t catch that. :P
2. Ill see how I can change it to make sense.
3. I just remembered that they do not. The purpose of this is to allow the last AA to break through blocked or Invulnerable. There is no point to this unless timed perfectly so I will change it up.
4. >.< I just want Scorpion Wire to work… It is so fun but it it needs more work.
5. I wanted this to be more of a defensive and auto version of Flanking Strike. I can see how it can be disorienting but having the camera not move during the shadow stepping would lessen that. If you are constantly moving I can see how that can be a problem because targeting can suck a little.
6. It would make PW more useful and remove the one click self-stun. Instead it would at like a regular combo where if the Pistol Whip hits then you can hit it again for the flurry or just use something else. It turns it into a tool that hopefully has a more useful application.
7. It does augment. I was thinking that VS would be weaker than Crippling Strike per hit but makes up for it with conditions.
8. I also did this because imo pistol 1-skill is bland and weak unless you utilized bleeding alot.

The two grandmasters are the ones I tried not being OP on. Turning shadow step into a line cc would seem like a good way to kitten people off, especially when your target gets launched lol. I ran out of ideas when I came up with RA. One of my favorite that I am using is assassin’s reward which is good for builds with high initiative regen which was the inspiration for it.

Be advised though the damage increase I had planned was = to stacks of might/ini. Might not be as much as you want. Also high costs will suck.

I would love a trait that increases the effectiveness of the stun on pistolwhip. As it stands, it’s not very good.

I: Cut and Weave – 100% chance next hit taken is glancing blow for 3 seconds on crit. (8s CD)
– except crits negate glancing blows dotn they? or is that just weakness glancing blows?; but it doesnt strike me as an adept trait

II: Momentum – 5% damage, crit damage and chance while moving.
- extremely powerful for an adept trait.

III: Throwdown – Stealing from behind knocks down opponent for 2 seconds and damages them. Crits add 1 more second of knockdown instead of increased damage. (I had to put my Aikido in there c:)
- again; definitely not an adept trait (theres the grandmaster one that only stuns on steal; hitting from behind is easy to do; especially with stealth)

I made adepts all like that so that even though they are all good, you can only choose 3. Also choosing 3 adept traits will make it impossible to use the other traits.

For CnW, Weakness is what makes glancing blows unless you crit. This is different. It is meant to be handy damage mitigation. Although you still get hit the damage is minor compared to what it can be.

For momentum, this trait is powerful with pistol, shortbow and anything you can execute while running. Skills that make you stop before the attack triggers negates this effect. It would be best with pistol because you can move while firing except with Black Powder. The pistols are UP anyway so this would make pistols viable if used. that is just my opinion though.

For Throwdown, I made it as though stealth became so useless that it got removed. Throwdown makes a fun replacement for Hidden Thief. Other than that you are right.

Zacchary.6183:

I made adepts all like that so that even though they are all good, you can only choose 3. Also choosing 3 adept traits will make it impossible to use the other traits.

that doesnt change the fact that theyd be horribly OP as adept traits

Then explain how they are OP. If you bothered to read my explanations for each of them you would see that they are not as OP as you think.

Here are some more of them…

After reading up on critical hits, CnW is useless vs. high crit rate because crits can’t become glancing blows. Even if their crit rate was too low, taking only 50% of the attack every 8 seconds isn’t that much of mitigation.

Mmt doesn’t work on every skill seeing as how some thief skills force you to stop before executing. The only way you could get the full effectiveness from this trait is if you equip pistols or sb which are already weak unless you run condition. Not only that this trait is best coupled with high precision which can take away from other traits.

TD is based on Aikido which doesn’t hurt the opponent. If someone stole with TD the damage would be as bad as the first attack on their 1-skill. Then there is the CD on steal. For it to be more effective you’de need alot of points in trickery so you can keep applying knockdown. If you were to put 30 in WM and Trickery, you also be wasting points on condition damage unless you plan to use conditions anyway. In fact, Dancing Blade would be better for condition builds. If for any reason you wanted both traits, you could do so but that would require 20 in WM which is 20 points you could better use for your build.

My point is that using any trait in this line is situational because none of these help collectively augment the thief’s mechanics. They are only useful if your build can use it and none of these really burst builds very much UNLESS you invest 30 points in it for Reckless Abandon. That still requires some risk and its 30 points you can’t spend on anything else.

That is how I see it.

That 5pts trait fits more in the Acrobatics tree (the evade tree). And more as a XI-XII range trait, maybe even VII-X range, but as a 5pts trait everyone would always spend those 5 pts on that tree and then continue with their build.

SA tree doesn’t need a revamp, if anything the other trees need a boost to be more affordable. Maybe there are some specific SA traits that might need a change but that’s all.

I know this isn’t about Stealth being OP but it sounds like you want to completly remove Stealth from every trait. SA is the Stealth trait line, for non stealth builds to be viable the way to go is to boost the other trees, not to completly remove stealth playstyles.

Also as others said some of them are really OP (with and without your explanations about how they aren’t OP) for the tier your putting them. Anyway as I said there is zero need for a revamp and I don’t think we will see an overhaul on that tree (not to mention that some would be hard to implement, always try to compare existing examples of mechanics when creating new concepts).

Zacchary.6183:

Then explain how they are OP. If you bothered to read my explanations for each of them you would see that they are not as OP as you think.

Here are some more of them…

After reading up on critical hits, CnW is useless vs. high crit rate because crits can’t become glancing blows. Even if their crit rate was too low, taking only 50% of the attack every 8 seconds isn’t that much of mitigation.

Mmt doesn’t work on every skill seeing as how some thief skills force you to stop before executing. The only way you could get the full effectiveness from this trait is if you equip pistols or sb which are already weak unless you run condition. Not only that this trait is best coupled with high precision which can take away from other traits.

TD is based on Aikido which doesn’t hurt the opponent. If someone stole with TD the damage would be as bad as the first attack on their 1-skill. Then there is the CD on steal. For it to be more effective you’de need alot of points in trickery so you can keep applying knockdown. If you were to put 30 in WM and Trickery, you also be wasting points on condition damage unless you plan to use conditions anyway. In fact, Dancing Blade would be better for condition builds. If for any reason you wanted both traits, you could do so but that would require 20 in WM which is 20 points you could better use for your build.

My point is that using any trait in this line is situational because none of these help collectively augment the thief’s mechanics. They are only useful if your build can use it and none of these really burst builds very much UNLESS you invest 30 points in it for Reckless Abandon. That still requires some risk and its 30 points you can’t spend on anything else.

That is how I see it.

thats a lot of mitigation when you factor in that you can easily fill that time space with stealth and/or evasion (or even disables)

i dont know whether you’re trolling or dont know your class? do you seriously fight people in pvp who just stand still and eat your dagger AAs to the face? no? they move around… and you follow them… you move… oh look thats a stupid damage increase for doing nothing, even in pve i find myself strafing left and right with melee weapons (aside from ranger sword… but… yeh) because it helps mitigate damage

its not the damage thats bad (although; hell its an adept trait; so why not grab mug as well) is the easy access ranged; instant cc; that even stack duration (im fairly sure control effects dont stack duration anyway… i know stun just resets, im assuming its the same for knockdown – seemed to be like it for the ice fractal)

go and look at some trait trees and get some idea for balance; kitten we’re lucky you arent balancing for anet (although anet balancing is already dubious)

(ive just had to endure a ‘family game night’ because its my birthday; so im a bit… annoyed; no doubt thats reflected in my post)

It does reflect and its kind of contagious. I know you either glanced over and ignored the point of this thread:

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that after a few more months of stealth QQ that Shadow Arts becomes completely useless no matter who you are. How would you redesign it?

If it is OP then exactly how would you improve it? That is all I ask.

@ Lokheit

I know that. This was a spur of the moment explosion of imagination. I do agree that most of them are OP but I did that for added discussion material. This thread was meant to be a non-serious screw around thread, something to get away from the constant QQ :/

Zacchary.6183:

It does reflect and its kind of contagious. I know you either glanced over and ignored the point of this thread:

Let’s just say, hypothetically, that after a few more months of stealth QQ that Shadow Arts becomes completely useless no matter who you are. How would you redesign it?

If it is OP then exactly how would you improve it? That is all I ask.

@ Lokheit

I know that. This was a spur of the moment explosion of imagination. I do agree that most of them are OP but I did that for added discussion material. This thread was meant to be a non-serious screw around thread, something to get away from the constant QQ :/

i wouldnt try to; because i dont care enough about thief atm to put thought into it (aswell as a lack of thief experience)

if it was meant to be non – serious then why did you put as much thought as you did into it? ugh; people frustrate me; i swear i must be an idiot

- and its not QQ; its feedback, because those ideas (as you have just said) are OP

ugh

Why not something for group support? Like the mentioned ability to make Larcenous Strike share stolen boons.

this would cripple a thief in wvw….horribly. interesting ideas but also very very weak. would also have to rename it something other than shadow arts… also NEVER use vulnerability on a GM trait…vuln sux and is never used other than from rangers which get like 10% per hit and stack it quick to 20%. just imo.

Lol everyone else is saying its OP. You think it has something to do with playstyles?