Guild Wars 2

Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.

Just go through the nerf wish list (in my sign) and read through all/some of the posts that have “Originally by: ____”, read some of the linked threads. :P That way you can come up with your own answers.

My take on it is that, regardless of they class they’re playing or playing against, their inability to learn and develop causes them to develop frustration that they come and vent out. And by learn and develop I don’t necessarily mean overcome/finally beat the opposing class, more like learn to deal with it (say avoiding it or other methods).

It would be interesting to go through their post histories and see if they’ve complained about other classes besides the thief.

Thief receives hate because:
- At a low level, thief counters every berserker build for every other class easily, and I mean pop in, swing your weapon about a bit and they drop - literally, easy.
- Thieves are hard to kill because they escape. Even if chasing someone off means you won, people like to get kills, so they complain.
- In tPvP, thief is only really countered by itself. It may have difficult matchups, but it’s role as being quick and sneaky to get decaps can only be countered by another mobile, aware, player.
- Thieves survive by blinding and evading, and having your hits miss often is annoying, so people complain.
- Thieves are designed to be able to adapt. People don’t like to adapt, they just want to be able to win "their way," so they complain.
- Thieves can dissapear. People don’t like having their target vanish, so they complain.

Impact.2780:

Thief receives hate because:
- At a low level, thief counters every berserker build for every other class easily, and I mean pop in, swing your weapon about a bit and they drop – literally, easy.
- Thieves are hard to kill because they escape. Even if chasing someone off means you won, people like to get kills, so they complain.
– In tPvP, thief is only really countered by itself. It may have difficult matchups, but it’s role as being quick and sneaky to get decaps can only be countered by another mobile, aware, player.
- Thieves survive by blinding and evading, and having your hits miss often is annoying, so people complain.
- Thieves are designed to be able to adapt. People don’t like to adapt, they just want to be able to win “their way,” so they complain.
- Thieves can dissapear. People don’t like having their target vanish, so they complain.

-Thieves steal things. People like their things not being stolen, they paid good money for it. :C

Turk.5460:

Impact.2780:

Thief receives hate because:
- At a low level, thief counters every berserker build for every other class easily, and I mean pop in, swing your weapon about a bit and they drop – literally, easy.
- Thieves are hard to kill because they escape. Even if chasing someone off means you won, people like to get kills, so they complain.
– In tPvP, thief is only really countered by itself. It may have difficult matchups, but it’s role as being quick and sneaky to get decaps can only be countered by another mobile, aware, player.
- Thieves survive by blinding and evading, and having your hits miss often is annoying, so people complain.
- Thieves are designed to be able to adapt. People don’t like to adapt, they just want to be able to win “their way,” so they complain.
- Thieves can dissapear. People don’t like having their target vanish, so they complain.

-Thieves steal things. People like their things not being stolen, they paid good money for it. :C

- Then they hold garage sales to sell back the stolen items.

While we’re on the topic of stealing things, can we stop stealing gunk from engineers. Clearly there has to be something more valuable in their hobosacks

Like grenade barrage. Seriously can we please steal that instead?

Or how about their slickshoes? Stealing shoes seems like a thief thing to do.

Drennon.7190:

Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.

Because This Apply To Only Us Class, NotThief Class…That Is Why!!

Drennon.7190:

Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.

I have a lvl 80 thief thank you. I’m not a good thief at all mind you but let’s be honest here, in some context they are (WvW) OP while in others they aren’t at all (PvP). I’m the first one to admit thief are not that great in the conquest pvp mechanic we have.

Personally, in WvW, that ability to engage/flee/reset every fight at will until they get things their way (AKA waiting for the opponent defenses to all be on cool down and then unload with utmost impunity from behind) is what irks me to no end. 95% of the time, the thief control the fight or if there will be one at all. That lack of perceived control from the non-thief opponent (specially the squishy ones) is not helping.

Some builds, even if they are more annoying then efficient (endless strike and disappear rinse and repeat kinda mosquitoes wannabes), are also almost impossible to defeat unless the thief is willing to stop playing it safe. Again, the control is almost entirely in the thief’s hands which is kittening annoying as kitten and, yeah, broken in many ways from some perspectives at least.

Of course there are ways to counter some builds but let’s not try and pretend there are no issues…

Long story short, some qq are legitimate, others no so much.

The only way you’re resetting so constantly in WvW is by building 6 into Shadow Arts and using a permanent stealth uptime build. Otherwise, the reset potential is over-stated since most other classes have similar if not better engage potential and much better potential at keeping the thief engaged in combat while at a weakness if outplayed first.

DeceiverX.8361:

The only way you’re resetting so constantly in WvW is by building 6 into Shadow Arts and using a permanent stealth uptime build. Otherwise, the reset potential is over-stated since most other classes have similar if not better engage potential and much better potential at keeping the thief engaged in combat while at a weakness if outplayed first.

Thief mobility can easily make him break of fight too without too much trouble considering all that is available and the ini mechanic. Not all opponents are Nike War (I main a staff ele that doesn’t use FGS). The extremely rare thief that don’t abuse stealth in WvW will have awesome mobility. But, let’s be honest here, the crushing majority in WvW have that 6 in SA.

I suppose I should be grateful they aren’t all condi/perplexity walking and smelling cheese with 1% risk v 99% reward though…

I have sympathy for Thief in pvp, truly, but absolutely none at all in WvW. It’s day and night.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

I have sympathy for Thief in pvp, truly, but absolutely none at all in WvW. It’s day and night.

Thief is awful in WvW. In zergs, all they can do is sit in the back and cast venoms every 30 seconds and hit nothing because they are the only class in the entire game with no 12,000 range attack options.

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief. In small gang roaming, thief is ok, but only because it turns into sPvP and they can jump in to outnumber a fight and disengage quickly.

If you’re getting owned by thieves you must be specced wrong or just plain bad. The only thing a thief can solo in this meta are zerker builds. The only zerker builds people are roaming with is guard, ranger, and maybe like power necro in groups. Ranger is the only one that stands a chance of dying if they are at keyboard. To most other builds, thieves literally die as collateral damage when they go into melee range and the bunker is healing, AOEing, etc.

The OPs “Serious Question” has been answered a thousand times by the very nerf-criers in these forums. People think thieves are OP because they can run away and not die and drop free loot.

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

Lol, please post your class and spec for WvW roaming so we can crucify you for losing to thieves or roaming as a rifle warrior.

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

fix’d

Thief is awful in WvW. In zergs, all they can do is sit in the back and cast venoms every 30 seconds and hit nothing because they are the only class in the entire game with no 12,000 range attack options.

They aren’t the best in that setting even if they do have their strength. They excel at putting a lot of pressure on the squishy…

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief. In small gang roaming, thief is ok, but only because it turns into sPvP and they can jump in to outnumber a fight and disengage quickly.

Wait, what?!!! I think it’s more a case of l2p here… that or the troll-o-meter just exploded…

If you’re getting owned by thieves you must be specced wrong or just plain bad. The only thing a thief can solo in this meta are zerker builds. The only zerker builds people are roaming with is guard, ranger, and maybe like power necro in groups. Ranger is the only one that stands a chance of dying if they are at keyboard. To most other builds, thieves literally die as collateral damage when they go into melee range and the bunker is healing, AOEing, etc.

Or, maybe it’s you who sux at it. If it’s me who ins’t good as a staff using ele, I can tell you that a boatload of ppl are sucking hard by your standards… Ask people who know me, or better yet, duel me…

Yes, I’m zerker geared, but most all other professions are perfectly fine for me to fight and hope to win. I do defeat thieve with my staff (beginner or an occasional good one who stopped being cautious and made a mistake) but I can assure you they don’t tell anyone about it because it’s quite hard to loose to a zerker staff ele when you are a d/d or p/d thief. It’s your fight to loose seriously…

The OPs “Serious Question” has been answered a thousand times by the very nerf-criers in these forums. People think thieves are OP because they can run away and not die and drop free loot.

Whether you like it or not they DO have some issues in WvW. Denying it changes nothing. They aren’t OP on general, but in WvW they have all you need to produce truly OP monsters.

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

Fixed.

Fixed.

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

Fixed.

Fixed.

you know you’ve failed when you correct an intentional misspelling

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

They aren’t the best in that setting even if they do have their strength. They excel at putting a lot of pressure on the squishy…

In a zerg? This is the only place a thief can’t put a lot of pressure on a squishy. You walk into the enemy backline’s wells in zerker gear (esp. as thief with the lowest native health pool) and you will literally die before you can dagger 1. Thieves do not play a melee role in zergs. Ever. Period.

Wait, what?!!! I think it’s more a case of l2p here… that or the troll-o-meter just exploded…

Wait for it…

Or, maybe it’s you who sux at it. If it’s me who ins’t good as a staff using ele, I can tell you that a boatload of ppl are sucking hard by your standards… Ask people who know me, or better yet, duel me…

Yes, I’m zerker geared, but most all other professions are perfectly fine for me to fight and hope to win. I do defeat thieve with my staff (beginner or an occasional good one who stopped being cautious and made a mistake) but I can assure you they don’t tell anyone about it because it’s quite hard to loose to a zerker staff ele when you are a d/d or p/d thief. It’s your fight to loose seriously…

staff using ele…

zerker geared

So you’re roaming as a staff ele with zerker gear.

Let me explain something to you, when GW2 launched thieves were unstoppably dominant because everyone was wearing zerker gear, and in a meta where everyone is designed to kill fast and die fast the thief always wins because they are FASTER. They don’t burst harder, they burst first.

Steal with mug is not dodgeable, it’s instant, has no animation and with b. venom prepped your backstab can’t be stopped and neither can the hasted dagger chain. This isn’t a problem any more because thief burst has been nerfed and also the classes that are still running glass power builds are the ones that can beat thieves. zerker staff elementalist is not one of them.

I would expect you to lose 100% of all fights against thieves as a zerker staff ele and my guess is that you don’t have a problem in sPvP because they don’t even let you kittenhouse your gear as hard as you want to because the zerker ammy has vitality on it.

The real imbalance that thieves pose towards squishies could have been solved by bringing stats more in-line for all amulets and raising the ttk across the board instead of trying to lower thief ttk because what we have at this point is a thief that was nerfed to be balanced with everyone wearing zerk ammys and everyone running cele bunkers, condi bunkers, etc. and the thief is mathematically outmatched.

Edit: And just to clarify, steal is dodgeable in the sense that it can be evaded but it’s not dodgeable in the sense that you can see it coming and react and dodge it. If you dodge it, it was pure guess work.

morbidillusion.2759:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

They aren’t the best in that setting even if they do have their strength. They excel at putting a lot of pressure on the squishy…

In a zerg? This is the only place a thief can’t put a lot of pressure on a squishy. You walk into the enemy backline’s wells in zerker gear (esp. as thief with the lowest native health pool) and you will literally die before you can dagger 1. Thieves do not play a melee role in zergs. Ever. Period.

Wait, what?!!! I think it’s more a case of l2p here… that or the troll-o-meter just exploded…

Wait for it…

Or, maybe it’s you who sux at it. If it’s me who ins’t good as a staff using ele, I can tell you that a boatload of ppl are sucking hard by your standards… Ask people who know me, or better yet, duel me…

Yes, I’m zerker geared, but most all other professions are perfectly fine for me to fight and hope to win. I do defeat thieve with my staff (beginner or an occasional good one who stopped being cautious and made a mistake) but I can assure you they don’t tell anyone about it because it’s quite hard to loose to a zerker staff ele when you are a d/d or p/d thief. It’s your fight to loose seriously…

staff using ele…

zerker geared

So you’re roaming as a staff ele with zerker gear.

Let me explain something to you, when GW2 launched thieves were unstoppably dominant because everyone was wearing zerker gear, and in a meta where everyone is designed to kill fast and die fast the thief always wins because they are FASTER. They don’t burst harder, they burst first.

Steal with mug is not dodgeable, it’s instant, has no animation and with b. venom prepped your backstab can’t be stopped and neither can the hasted dagger chain. This isn’t a problem any more because thief burst has been nerfed and also the classes that are still running glass power builds are the ones that can beat thieves. zerker staff elementalist is not one of them.

I would expect you to lose 100% of all fights against thieves as a zerker staff ele and my guess is that you don’t have a problem in sPvP because they don’t even let you kittenhouse your gear as hard as you want to because the zerker ammy has vitality on it.

The real imbalance that thieves pose towards squishies could have been solved by bringing stats more in-line for all amulets and raising the ttk across the board instead of trying to lower thief ttk because what we have at this point is a thief that was nerfed to be balanced with everyone wearing zerk ammys and everyone running cele bunkers, condi bunkers, etc. and the thief is mathematically outmatched.

Edit: And just to clarify, steal is dodgeable in the sense that it can be evaded but it’s not dodgeable in the sense that you can see it coming and react and dodge it. If you dodge it, it was pure guess work.

Steal is quite easy to dodge, 90% of the time, thieves use it at the start of a fight. Only time you wouldn’t be able to dodge is if you dont know there’s a thief lurking around. As for thief being OP, it’s all experience of the player. Any inexperience player would mostly likely die to a thief 1 vs 1. Whereas for a player who’ve dealt with thieves before regardless of their build, they will be able to immediately identify their build based on their weapon set and decide if their build can counter it or not. Any class should be able to beat a thief. The ease of doing so depends on the thiefs skills on dealing with each specific class and build. If you think the thief is going to burst, you use evades/invuls or blocks. Infact, you can pressure the thief to blow his utility skills so he have to make a choice between running away or fight. If he runs, you’re the victor, it means he thinks he has no chance of beating you. If he stays, you just make him regret.

Also I main thief, but I can defeat them with other classes since their actions are predictable. They usually start with steal early, if you get stunned, you know they are running trickery. If they stealth and heal a decent amount, they are running sa and have less burst and probably base hp. If they are running condi, well if you can win, do it, if not, run.

vespers.1759:

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

Fixed.

Fixed.

you know you’ve failed when you correct an intentional misspelling

You know you appear like a kitten(since it’s censored, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kitten )bag that when you completely change what someone said and say it’s “fixed”.

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

Fixed.

Fixed.

you know you’ve failed when you correct an intentional misspelling

You know you appear like a kitten(since it’s censored, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kitten )bag that when you completely change what someone said and say it’s “fixed”.

My work here is done!

vespers.1759:

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

Zero Day.2594:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

vespers.1759:

morbidillusion.2759:

Thief is really bad at 1v1 duels so solo roaming is a serious chore for a thief.

el oh el what the hell did i jsut read

90% of roamers and people dueling in the coliseum are thieves because playing a thief is a chore! we’re doing it so you guys don’t have to!

it’s hard playing a thief! it’s like playing a free kill you should be thanking us!

Fixed.

Fixed.

you know you’ve failed when you correct an intentional misspelling

You know you appear like a kitten(since it’s censored, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/kitten )bag that when you completely change what someone said and say it’s “fixed”.

My work here is done!

Likewise.

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Cya grown-up!

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Personally, in WvW, that ability to engage/flee/reset every fight at will until they get things their way (AKA waiting for the opponent defenses to all be on cool down and then unload with utmost impunity from behind) is what irks me to no end. 95% of the time, the thief control the fight or if there will be one at all. That lack of perceived control from the non-thief opponent (specially the squishy ones) is not helping.

The problem with this statement is that it is not exclusive to the Thief. Other professions such as Warriors, Mesmers, Elementalist, Necros, Engis, Rangers and Guardians can reset the fight also…wait, that’s all the professions. kitten right!

I have level 80 of each profession and I can reset a fight whenever I want to. It’s much much easier with my Warrior and Necro though all thanks to the Warhorn.

Some builds, even if they are more annoying then efficient (endless strike and disappear rinse and repeat kinda mosquitoes wannabes), are also almost impossible to defeat unless the thief is willing to stop playing it safe. Again, the control is almost entirely in the thief’s hands which is kittening annoying as kitten and, yeah, broken in many ways from some perspectives at least.

“Broken” is the word used by players with a L2P issue, so please abstain from using it if you want to be taken seriously.

Besides, not all Thieves “disappears” — many are willing to dance around you until you die.

Of course there are ways to counter some builds but let’s not try and pretend there are no issues…

Better yet, let’s not pretend that this is a Thief issue and not a L2P issue.

Thieves have a knack for putting big pulsing neon blaze orange circles around a bad player.

Instead of changing themselves they want to change the game.

tl;dr Ego

The problem with this statement is that it is not exclusive to the Thief. Other professions such as Warriors, Mesmers, Elementalist, Necros, Engis, Rangers and Guardians can reset the fight also…wait, that’s all the professions. kitten right!

And the problem with your reply is the fact it’s a straw man argument… I also have all profession to 80 and I can’t tell if you are serious or just purposefully missing the point of what I,m saying. It’s almost as if several of you guys refuses to even consider another POV. The lack of perceived control by the thief’s opponent I was referring isn’t even mainly cause by him having fast movements. A Nike war doesn’t give’s me anything close to the perceived lack of control a thief can despite the fact he can easily engage and disengage by running away. It’s the stealth on top of it that makes it all ridiculous in WvW.

I have level 80 of each profession and I can reset a fight whenever I want to. It’s much much easier with my Warrior and Necro though all thanks to the Warhorn.

I’m sorry but I also have all profession at 80 and I call BS HARD core on this. A thief can FAR more easily reset any fight because he can do so with or without running away. For some reasons you completely evacuated stealth out the window. At this point you should just be honest and say: “F*** you, I don’t care”. It would at least have the merit to be honest.

“Broken” is the word used by players with a L2P issue, so please abstain from using it if you want to be taken seriously.

Ah! here we are… pathetic. Ok, mister I can play your staff ele better than you… duel me and show me. You wanna defend that L2P BS? Here is your chance, pick your time and place and take your ele. We will see how works for you. No more empty words, actions. If you win, Ill be the first to apologize and eat all my words back… Show me…

Besides, not all Thieves “disappears” — many are willing to dance around you until you die.

Here is where I know you have only read and understood what you wanted instead of what I’ve said… I never said or even implied all thieves were SA6. I DID say, however, that the crushing majority in WvW were SA6. If you say you disagree, please elaborate because I’ve spent way too much time there to find it even a little believable. This argument, again, isn’t even one. It counters nothing I’ve said, it just tries to make it look like it did: straw man.

What’s next? You will tell me you agree with kid delusion above when he says Thieves are bad roamers and duelers?!!

Better yet, let’s not pretend that this is a Thief issue and not a L2P issue.

I’m waiting for you in game with your staff ele in zerker gear (you did said you had all profession at 80 right? and that it’s a L2P issues so…)… I hope for you you live up to your bla-bla… You are about to discover what “hard mode” really means…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

The problem with this statement is that it is not exclusive to the Thief. Other professions such as Warriors, Mesmers, Elementalist, Necros, Engis, Rangers and Guardians can reset the fight also…wait, that’s all the professions. kitten right!

And the problem with your reply is the fact it’s a straw man argument… I also have all profession to 80 and I can’t tell if you are serious or just purposefully missing the point of what I,m saying. It’s almost as if several of you guys refuses to even consider another POV. The lack of perceived control by the thief’s opponent I was referring isn’t even mainly cause by him having fast movements. A Nike war doesn’t give’s me anything close to the perceived lack of control a thief can despite the fact he can easily engage and disengage by running away. It’s the stealth on top of it that makes it all ridiculous in WvW.

What exactly happen when they stealth? If you say they heal to full health, well other profession can do that too. Within the 3s-4s that the Thief is in stealth, they do no damage, which gives you the chance to regen your health.

I’m still not convince why it is ridiculous.

I’m sorry but I also have all profession at 80 and I call BS HARD core on this. A thief can FAR more easily reset any fight because he can do so with or without running away. For some reasons you completely evacuated stealth out the window. At this point you should just be honest and say: “F*** you, I don’t care”. It would at least have the merit to be honest.

I can as easily reset the fight with my Necro just by going in and out of death shroud. My Mesmer and Ranger has access to stealth. My Warrior has a ridiculous 24/7 health regen. My Guardian resets using meditation. Engis resets when they drop turrets. Elementalist has many ways to reset a fight just by switching attunements.

Take your pick. You’re probably just building your professions wrong.

Ah! here we are… pathetic. Ok, mister I can play your staff ele better than you… duel me and show me. You wanna defend that L2P BS? Here is your chance, pick your time and place and take your ele. We will see how works for you. No more empty words, actions. If you win, Ill be the first to apologize and eat all my words back… Show me…

What exactly will this prove? Even if you win, it will not prove that Thief is broken, simply that I need to L2P my Elementalist. /facepalm

And if I win, you simply need to L2P your Thief. It doesn’t negate the fact that it is a L2P issue.

I fought good Thieves in WvW with my other professions, but never would I call it broken — they’re just good and they’ve outplayed me.

Here is where I know you have only read and understood what you wanted instead of what I’ve said… I never said or even implied all thieves were SA6. I DID say, however, that the crushing majority in WvW were SA6. If you say you disagree, please elaborate because I’ve spent way too much time there to find it even a little believable. This argument, again, isn’t even one. It counters nothing I’ve said, it just tries to make it look like it did: straw man.

EDIT:For every buff/nerf, the meta shifts. Giving AE a buff will shift the meta towards it. If you fail to consider that, then you’re the one being selective on what to read and understand.

This my response to another thread, my bad.

To address your post; I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I said that some Thief would rather dance around you.

What’s next? You will tell me you agree with kid delusion above when he says Thieves are bad roamers and duelers?!!

If you say so.

I’m waiting for you in game with your staff ele in zerker gear (you did said you had all profession at 80 right? and that it’s a L2P issues so…)… I hope for you you live up to your bla-bla… You are about to discover what “hard mode” really means…

Like I said, what would it prove?

Assuming that you win…then what? You hardly prove anything other than you’re good at playing Thief — has nothing to do with the profession being OP or whatever.

Now now, vincent, you know it’s rude and pointless to argue with “adults”…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Zero Day.2594:

Now now, vincent, you know it’s rude and pointless to argue with “adults”…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Which is really funny since he wants to settle the argument by telling me to meet him at the parking lot so we can fight it out — just like back in Elementary School. lol.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Now now, vincent, you know it’s rude and pointless to argue with “adults”…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Which is really funny since he wants to settle the argument by telling me to meet him at the parking lot so we can fight it out — just like back in Elementary School. lol.

OO
OOO
You should bring friends. And if it’s a fist fight bring a knives and if’s a knife fight bring guns… Or in this case, since it’s a thief fight, bring some warriors.

(Actually, that would be awesome… shadow refuge-ing a ton of warriors and when he agrees to duel all the warriors leap out and well, yeah… magic)

In all honesty I lost all seriousness and respect for him when he dismissed people as “kids”…

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Now now, vincent, you know it’s rude and pointless to argue with “adults”…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Which is really funny since he wants to settle the argument by telling me to meet him at the parking lot so we can fight it out — just like back in Elementary School. lol.

OO
OOO
You should bring friends. And if it’s a fist fight bring a knives and if’s a knife fight bring guns… Or in this case, since it’s a thief fight, bring some warriors.

In all honesty I lost all seriousness and respect for him when he dismissed people as “kids”…

He wants me to bring a long stick. :P

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Now now, vincent, you know it’s rude and pointless to argue with “adults”…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok… I see that people will only listen to what they like. Have fun kids…

Which is really funny since he wants to settle the argument by telling me to meet him at the parking lot so we can fight it out — just like back in Elementary School. lol.

OO
OOO
You should bring friends. And if it’s a fist fight bring a knives and if’s a knife fight bring guns… Or in this case, since it’s a thief fight, bring some warriors.

In all honesty I lost all seriousness and respect for him when he dismissed people as “kids”…

He wants me to bring a long stick. :P

Skip the knives and guns, go straight to tanks.

What exactly happen when they stealth? If you say they heal to full health, well other profession can do that too. Within the 3s-4s that the Thief is in stealth, they do no damage, which gives you the chance to regen your health.

What happens when they stealth is we loose trace of them and they don’t loose trace of us. If the thief decide to come back from stealth and fight, the fight continue. Otherwise it won’t. The power to chose if there is or not a fight and if it continues is essentially the thief to decide. That is very powerful. Healing or not isn’t the crux of the matter. It’s how much power you feel you are left when you play vs them with a squishy like me.

I’m still not convince why it is ridiculous.

I don’t remember saying it was ridiculous. I said:
Thieves CAN be OP in WvW.
Thieve are not OP in PVP.

I even said they aren’t OP in general if you actually read what I write as opposed to put more words in my mouth. BUT, frankly, thieve CAN be OP in WvW. Some builds are pure crazy cheese that have 1% risk vs 99% reward (looking at you condi/rabid pistol dagger who only need to spam condi and safely watch his prey die in the shadows).

I’m sorry but I also have all profession at 80 and I call BS HARD core on this. A thief can FAR more easily reset any fight because he can do so with or without running away. For some reasons you completely evacuated stealth out the window. At this point you should just be honest and say: “F*** you, I don’t care”. It would at least have the merit to be honest.

I can as easily reset the fight with my Necro just by going in and out of death shroud. My Mesmer and Ranger has access to stealth. My Warrior has a ridiculous 24/7 health regen. My Guardian resets using meditation. Engis resets when they drop turrets. Elementalist has many ways to reset a fight just by switching attunements.[] If you read what I write, that is NOT the point. Many necro are incredibly hard to defeat for me but I never felt I was not in control of the fight or the decision to have or not a fight. With a thief, and to a lesser extent some mesmers, (yeah stealth is the problem) it’s very different.

Take your pick. You’re probably just building your professions wrong.

Come on… I play that profession since day one, I solo roam, tpvp, duel and whatever else with that profession and it works vs 90% of the builds out there. I have won vs pretty much all possible builds in the game and I’ve played enough to have died more than 10k times with it. In other words, I’ve played a lot with it. The L2P thesis is r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Seriously.

Ah! here we are… pathetic. Ok, mister I can play your staff ele better than you… duel me and show me. You wanna defend that L2P BS? Here is your chance, pick your time and place and take your ele. We will see how works for you. No more empty words, actions. If you win, Ill be the first to apologize and eat all my words back… Show me…

What exactly will this prove? Even if you win, it will not prove that Thief is broken, simply that I need to L2P my Elementalist. /facepalm

Uh… I dunno… that it is not a L2P issue? If you can tell me I should have no problem vs the thief and it’s a L2P issue, it kinda imply you play better than I can with what you judge: my ele build. Therefore, I expect you to put your money where your mouth is… To make it simple it might force you to resort to something else than “L2P” to defend your POV. Any other easy questions? Still facepalming?

And if I win, you simply need to L2P your Thief. It doesn’t negate the fact that it is a L2P issue.

You really like your logical fallacies. My problem is with my ele, not my thief. Your L2P comment is aiming my ele, not my thief. Be coherent plz.

I fought good Thieves in WvW with my other professions, but never would I call it broken — they’re just good and they’ve outplayed me.

Compare apples with apples. I’m talking about a player as good with his thief as I am with my staff ele. Even I can defeat scrub or ok thieves with my staff. I don’t compare myself to what can’t be compared.

To address your post; I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I said that some Thief would rather dance around you.

Which is nice and reasonable. I agree with that.

If you say so.

So, you agree with him? A simple yes or no will suffice…

Like I said, what would it prove?

Assuming that you win…then what? You hardly prove anything other than you’re good at playing Thief — has nothing to do with the profession being OP or whatever.

Read above. It will prove that a guy in a position to tell me “L2P” my staff ele will have failed to be better than me… make your own conclusions and next time be more careful about that “L2P” answer because it can come back at you.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

What happens when they stealth is we loose trace of them and they don’t loose trace of us. If the thief decide to come back from stealth and fight, the fight continue. Otherwise it won’t. The power to chose if there is or not a fight and if it continues is essentially the thief to decide. That is very powerful. Healing or not isn’t the crux of the matter. It’s how much power you feel you are left when you play vs them with a squishy like me.

Then why only complain about Thief? Mesmers are worst that Thieves when it comes to stealth. Complain about that.

I don’t remember saying it was ridiculous. I said:
Thieves CAN be OP in WvW.
Thieve are not OP in PVP.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

It’s the stealth on top of it that makes it all ridiculous in WvW.

Remember now?

If you read what I write, that is NOT the point. Many necro are incredibly hard to defeat for me but I never felt I was not in control of the fight or the decision to have or not a fight. With a thief, and to a lesser extent some mesmers, (yeah stealth is the problem) it’s very different.

The point is, stealth was never the problem. Players who learn how to play their profession never complains about stealth. Only those who has L2P issue do complain.

Come on… I play that profession since day one, I solo roam, tpvp, duel and whatever else with that profession and it works vs 90% of the builds out there. I have won vs pretty much all possible builds in the game and I’ve played enough to have died more than 10k times with it. In other words, I’ve played a lot with it. The L2P thesis is r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s. Seriously.

Then why are you saying the things you are saying? With your experience, stealth shouldn’t be a problem.

Uh… I dunno… that it is not a L2P issue?

No it doesn’t. All it proves is that one of us has a L2P issue. Every time I go out there in WvW I learn new things. Players adapt to the meta and nothing is certain or concrete.

You may have thousands of hours under your belt, but every run in WvW are never the same. Everyone who plays in WvW knows this.

If you can tell me I should have no problem vs the thief and it’s a L2P issue, it kinda imply you play better than I can with what you judge: my ele build. Therefore, I expect you to put your money where your mouth is… To make it simple it might force you to resort to something else than “L2P” to defend your POV. Any other easy questions? Still facepalming?

/facepalm

If you win you only prove that you’re a better player. And if I win, it proves that I am better — which has nothing to do with the Thief. It’s a complete waste of time.

You really like your logical fallacies. My problem is with my ele, not my thief. Your L2P comment is aiming my ele, not my thief. Be coherent plz.

I’m not aiming at anything in particular, you are. You wanted me to take my Ele and fight your Thief.

Compare apples with apples. I’m talking about a player as good with his thief as I am with my staff ele. Even I can defeat scrub or ok thieves with my staff. I don’t compare myself to what can’t be compared.

How is comparing Ele to Thief an “apple to apple” comparison?

Even a Thief to Thief is never an “apple to apple” comparison because there are wide range of builds with different playstyle.

The only apple to apple comparison is You playing with You.

So, you agree with him? A simple yes or no will suffice…

Um, that was a rhetorical question.

Read above. It will prove that a guy in a position to tell me “L2P” my staff ele will have failed to be better than me…

And if I fail then all it would prove is that the Thief has no issue — I just need to L2P my Thief better next time.

make your own conclusions and next time be more careful about that “L2P” answer because it can come back at you.

Bottom line, it’s a L2P issue either way.

Are you even reading me or what? I complain about the thief and not the mesmer because the topic is about the thief. On top of it, I’m starting to get impatient because people show very little good will when they read me and argue.

Second, you are aiming at something particular when you say L2P. I’m sorry but that reply not only make no sense it it illustrate quite well what makes me less patient. You imply I should not have issues with thieves of equivalent caliber with my ele. We aren’t talking warrior or whatever. The target is clear.

Finally, how can it be a L2P issue if I play my ele better than you who seek to judge me about how I play it ? You said with my experience stealth shouldn’t be a problem. So either you are telling me you would do better than me with my own build vs thieves of equivalent level or maybe just maybe there is something about stealth that can make it a problem to tell others to L2P. L2P isn’t always the answer to everything being the point…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Are you even reading me or what? I complain about the thief and not the mesmer because the topic is about the thief. On top of it, I’m starting to get impatient because people show very little good will when they read me and argue.

No, the topic you posted is that stealth is the issue and you are singling out the Thief even though Mesmer and Ranger has equal access to the mechanic.

You keep on focusing about Thief’s ability to reset but failed to acknowledge that other profession can do the same in their own way.

You complain about the Thief controlling the fight using stealth, yet a lot of Thieves would rather dance around you.

You’re just complaining about the Thief for the sake of complaining without any coherent reason why.

Second, you are aiming at something particular when you say L2P. I’m sorry but that reply not only make no sense it it illustrate quite well what makes me less patient. You imply I should not have issues with thieves of equivalent caliber with my ele. We aren’t talking warrior or whatever. The target is clear.

What I’m telling you is that no one is of equivalent caliber to another. The only one who is your equivalent is you.

Many players plays Thief very differently and you’re using the fallacy of broad generalization just so you can complain about the Thief when you’re probably only less than 10% correct.

Finally, how can it be a L2P issue if I play my ele better than you who seek to judge me about how I play it ?

Because that’s what it is. You simply play better — which doesn’t prove your point.

You said with my experience stealth shouldn’t be a problem. So either you are telling me you would do better than me with my own build vs thieves of equivalent level or maybe just maybe there is something about stealth that can make it a problem to tell others to L2P. L2P isn’t always the answer to everything being the point…

If I do better, it proves that I am a better player. If you do better, it proves that you are a better player.

Either way, it has nothing to do with the Thief having an issue or it being OP.

No, the topic you posted is that stealth is the issue and you are singling out the Thief even though Mesmer and Ranger has equal access to the mechanic.

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

My answer to the OP was that there are viable reason as to why many can see thief a OP depending on context. There are legitimate arguments to be made from all side.

You keep on focusing about Thief’s ability to reset but failed to acknowledge that other profession can do the same in their own way.

Wow! more BS! I totally acknowledged, and I do it again right here, that others can do what you said. Nike War was a fine example of it. The problem was/is, it was completely beside the point being made regarding the perceived control of the thief’s opponent. Remember when I explained to you why it was a straw man? Yet, here you are again with that logical fallacy… long story short you are not exchanging on the topic in good faith and I feel like I’m being trolled.

You complain about the Thief controlling the fight using stealth, yet a lot of Thieves would rather dance around you.

WTF is that answer? How is it even remotely relevant knowing my argumentation?

You’re just complaining about the Thief for the sake of complaining without any coherent reason why.

Sure, ofc if one is to ignore all I say and put different words into my mouth I can see why you say that… But that is different than me complaining for the shake of it. Beside I’m not complaining so much as saying Thief CAN be OP in some context and not at all in others.

What I’m telling you is that no one is of equivalent caliber to another. The only one who is your equivalent is you.

Sure, but I’m pretty sure you have perfectly understood what I meant. Compare a thief that has played his build for as long as I did mine if you prefer.

Many players plays Thief very differently and you’re using the fallacy of broad generalization just so you can complain about the Thief when you’re probably only less than 10% correct.

No. sorry but my answer to the OP was not a sweeping generalization. I took care of setting a context. I also said that thieves CAN be OP. CAN a opposed to ARE. Meaning not all QQ are always illegitimate depending on circumstance. So far, people here totally reject even the possibility of that nuance which is quite something. I have no calm about criticizing my favorite profession and admit when some stuff is possibly OP. I’m not going to suddenly judge by different standards.

Because that’s what it is. You simply play better — which doesn’t prove your point.

So, let me get this straight. I would play better than you, but you still insist that such a person has not yet learned what you obviously know? Anybody beside me is having a hard time grasping the logic behind that line of thinking?

Can those who would tell me L2P show me how it’s done? Here is a staff, and a zerker ele, show me vs a thief who has as much exp as you have with an ele… If you can’t show me what you mean by L2P, you got no place to tell me, or anybody, L2P. You should stop using a ridiculous argument. Because, let’s face it, it would be pretty worthless.

If I do better, it proves that I am a better player. If you do better, it proves that you are a better player.

Since when the lesser player is in any position to tell the better one L2P? Or do you really naively think someone who has a much experience as I do with my build and profession hasn’t had enough opportunities to learn and experiment? Is it even possible for you to admit that, yeah, maybe, in some settings, Thieves can be a tad OP at times compared to others? I can admit that for my main profession but thief is a no-no.

Either way, it has nothing to do with the Thief having an issue or it being OP.

If no matter the skill level of the staff ele overcoming the majority of similarly experienced thieves in most wvw context remain extremely hard, bordering the miraculous, I’d strongly rethink the matter being one of “L2P” and maybe begin to accept that thieves too can be strongly favored (arguably too strongly favored sometimes) in some contexts.

Yes, other professions can also be guilty of this, but, again, the OP complained about the thief perception not the mesmer or whatever else. Telling me others are no better is a logical fallacy in itself.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

The OP IS complaining about ppl perception regarding THIEF. Not WAR or MES, THIEF.

Also, I don’t see how you can pretend all the rest is moot. It sure is convenient to pretend it is thought… I guess. But what I understand is you will hear none of it no matter what one says.

Let’s simply disagree then. It’s likely the most we will apparently agree on.

Hey, i have champion shadow, i only play thief in wvw, it’s my second main, i played it a ton in tpvp

do i get the right to complaint?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

So, the guy you’re talking to thinks Thieves are OP in WvW and plays a glass cannon staff elementalist which is the worst glass cannon build I can think of. The sad part is that this guy is playing a class that has one of the most popular and powerful WvW roaming builds around right now in the form of D/D ele and basically chooses to lose on purpose with his horrible spec that has no place in any form of PvP.

With that said, it is absolutely 1,000,000% more ridiculous for you, in a topic about why people think thieves are still OP, to tell a guy giving a reason for why he thinks thieves are OP that his comments are misplaced or off-topic. This is exactly where his horribly misinformed and out-right incorrect opinions belong.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Ok, now you are trolling me. You asked me why I singled out the thief and I answered you why. Here i the OP:

‘Why do people still think thief is OP? Have they not played one? Is there a misconception of our toolkit? I honestly don’t understand it. What’s more bizarre to me is when it is one of the cele meta classes complaining.’

The topic and the question asked by the OP ARE about the thief. Get it now why someone answering about the mesmer or ranger would be kinda out of context?

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

The OP IS complaining about ppl perception regarding THIEF. Not WAR or MES, THIEF.

Thief is the object not the subject.

People singles out Thief for the same invalid reason that you have and the OP is asking why. The OP is asking “why” and we all understood (except you) what the OP is talking about.

Also, I don’t see how you can pretend all the rest is moot. It sure is convenient to pretend it is thought… I guess. But what I understand is you will hear none of it no matter what one says.

It’s moot because it is based on a false premise. Your whole so-called-argument falls apart because you misunderstood what the subject of the discussion is.

morbidillusion.2759:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

So, the guy you’re talking to thinks Thieves are OP in WvW and plays a glass cannon staff elementalist which is the worst glass cannon build I can think of. The sad part is that this guy is playing a class that has one of the most popular and powerful WvW roaming builds around right now in the form of D/D ele and basically chooses to lose on purpose with his horrible spec that has no place in any form of PvP.

With that said, it is absolutely 1,000,000% more ridiculous for you, in a topic about why people think thieves are still OP, to tell a guy giving a reason for why he thinks thieves are OP that his comments are misplaced or off-topic. This is exactly where his horribly misinformed and out-right incorrect opinions belong.

You didn’t follow the conversation. My reply was based on his attempt to prove a point by fighting it out with his Ele and my Thief — which is off topic.

morbidillusion.2759:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Um no. Read it again. The topic is not about the Thief but those who complains about the Thief. Those who single out the Thief (like you) for no valid reason.

Reading comprehension 101.

The rest of your so-called-arguments are moot.

So, the guy you’re talking to thinks Thieves are OP in WvW and plays a glass cannon staff elementalist which is the worst glass cannon build I can think of. The sad part is that this guy is playing a class that has one of the most popular and powerful WvW roaming builds around right now in the form of D/D ele and basically chooses to lose on purpose with his horrible spec that has no place in any form of PvP.

With that said, it is absolutely 1,000,000% more ridiculous for you, in a topic about why people think thieves are still OP, to tell a guy giving a reason for why he thinks thieves are OP that his comments are misplaced or off-topic. This is exactly where his horribly misinformed and out-right incorrect opinions belong.

The guy you are talking to… why the indirect communication? You can reply to me directly if you are to talk about me like that…

IDK why you bring the d/d ele in this. I’m the first one who will admit d/d and staff are extremely different and can themselves be OP in many context themselves. The point was NEVER about singling out the thief so much as to remind that maybe there are legitimate QQ regarding the thief just as with pretty much all other professions.

There seem to be no end of QQ against thieves, but there are just as many QQ from the other side too. And this thread, among many here and on the other forums, tries to paint all the other side as “wrong” or “illegitimate”. Poor, poor thieve, they are so unfairly treated… It’s simply not the case IMO and I’ve said so and in what context it can be totally not the case. You guys have it easy in a lot of wvw context. Saying “so does the other profession” is utterly irrelevant since it doesn’t counter even a coma of what I said.

Still, it doesn’t make your reply any more relevant or any less weird in the way you address me indirectly…