Guild Wars 2

Again I wonder why such an excellent skill is stuck on a condition weapon set. If you know how to utilize it, things melt.

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Because I enjoy the weapon set but would feel terrible about myself running condition.

How exactly am I using it wrong?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Actually the only thing that doesn’t scale well with power on that set is the autoattack:

Auto:1 Bleed (0.49 mult/second)
Sneak attack: 5 Bleed (1.225)
Body Shot: 5 Vuln + Immobilize (0.5)
Shadow Strike: Shadowstep + 2 Torment (1.55 total)
Dancing Dagger: Cripple (0.5)
CnD: Stealth + 3 Vuln (1.0 or 1.5)

The only reason it’s really used as a condi set is the bleeds on auto are decent when used in a condi set whereas not so much with power.

SB has a better auto and better utility also which is why it’s used over P/D in a power set.

Auto: (.58 mult/sec)
Surprise Shot: Immobilize (0.6)
CB: 1 bleed (1.45) or 3*(1 Bleed (0.5))
Disabling Shot: Evade + Cripple (0.5)
Choking Gas: AoE Poison (~0.21)
Infiltrator’s Arrow: Shadowstep + Blind

Comparing the two, you can see that P/D actually scales nicely in terms of power burst, but the sustained damage is poor without even having multiple target capability unless traited. SB just fills the niche of ranged power better than P/D, but that doesn’t mean P/D can’t be used as ranged power.

Edit: 1 more thing on top of that, if you look at P/P where most of the “burst” is from unload (5 initiative), that’s only a 2.4 multiplier total over ~1.75 seconds for a “burst” of 1.37 mult/sec, where shadow strike (4 initiative) is an actual burst of less than a second (0 cast time,+ flight time of shot) and 1 mult of 1.55. I’d venture to say P/D is a better power set than P/P.

The bulk of the damage of P/D comes from bleed from auto, bleed from sneak, and torment from skill #3

I’m not saying that P/D can’t be used as power, even a butter knife can be used as a screwdriver.

Get my point?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The bulk of the damage of P/D comes from bleed from auto, bleed from sneak, and torment from skill #3

I’m not saying that P/D can’t be used as power, even a butter knife can be used as a screwdriver.

Get my point?

So your point is that there is only one way to play thief and all of the other ways should be discouraged, great attitude right there. Why even play thief when warrior does everything much better?

Shadow Strike scales immensely with power, I often get 5 – 7k bursts from literally pressing one button on squishy targets, not to mention it puts me out of range of melee counter attack and applies torment on top of it.

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Vital Shot would like to have a word with you…

As long as it remains as useless as it is, the weapon set will always be mediocre for power leaving little reason to choose it over anything else. It hurts P/P a lot as well. Sneak Attack isn’t too great either.

Pistol 2 is also pretty useless unless you have 20 allies with u and want to do nothing but hold someone choppily. Mine as well use Venom and instakill them with Dagger.

Doggie.3184:

Jrunyon.3012:

P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all. I have been having great success with power roaming in wvw.

Vital Shot would like to have a word with you…

As long as it remains as useless as it is, the weapon set will always be mediocre for power leaving little reason to choose it over anything else. Sneak Attack isn’t too great either.

It’s a 1-2k AA (more if using fire/air) from 900 range, 1050 if traited. It’s not the greatest but it’s in no way “useless”.

shadow strike and cloak and dagger scale very well with power. Sneak attack not so much, but this is also part of the appeal behind zerk/hybrid p/d, because it does not take a whole lot of condi dmg (600ish+) to put the bleed stacks to work as additional pressure after you hit a 2k+ crit on your shadow strike with no more than 1700-1800ish power.

Jrunyon.3012:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The bulk of the damage of P/D comes from bleed from auto, bleed from sneak, and torment from skill #3

I’m not saying that P/D can’t be used as power, even a butter knife can be used as a screwdriver.

Get my point?

So your point is that there is only one way to play thief and all of the other ways should be discouraged, great attitude right there.

Sure, a butter knife can unscrew a screw, but screwdriver can do it better.

Why even play thief when warrior does everything much better?

Very good and very valid question.

Shadow Strike scales immensely with power, I often get 5 – 7k bursts from literally pressing one button on squishy targets, not to mention it puts me out of range of melee counter attack and applies torment on top of it.

I’m not arguing about its capability, just like the butter knife. My point is why use a butter knife when a screwdriver is designed to fulfill the task?

It’s not the other options aren’t available.

I don’t think Jrunyun is using only P/D. He’s probably doing D/P as the other set, and that sounds like it would work out pretty ok.

Turk.5460:

I don’t think Jrunyun is using only P/D. He’s probably doing D/P as the other set, and that sounds like it would work out pretty ok.

S/p actually lol.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m not arguing about its capability, just like the butter knife. My point is why use a butter knife when a screwdriver is designed to fulfill the task?

It’s not the other options aren’t available.

Whether one thing is better than the other is debatable.
When you’ve got air/fire on p/d it really evens things out, and you’re doing it all from range.

Jrunyon.3012:

Turk.5460:

I don’t think Jrunyun is using only P/D. He’s probably doing D/P as the other set, and that sounds like it would work out pretty ok.

S/p actually lol.

Now that makes more sense for a power build.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m not arguing about its capability, just like the butter knife. My point is why use a butter knife when a screwdriver is designed to fulfill the task?

But there I think is where you are wrong, and is the whole basis for this discussion.

I don’t believe that P/D was “designed” as a strictly condition set. Aside from bleeds and torment (which was added almost a year after launch btw and is the more powerful condition) the set doesn’t even have that much condition application, and is carried by the fact that you can stack bleeds quickly.

Do I deny that it is good at being a cheesy no brain condi machine gun? No. But to say it was designed only for that and using it any other way is wrong is close minded, especially when you haven’t come up with any valid points as to why power is bad besides “other things do the job better”.

I might be using a butter knife, but why would you use a screwdriver when you can use a power drill? (Necro)

There are top-tier duelist power thieves that use P/D on berserker builds because of its kiting potential and the very high scaling on Shadow Strike. It’s double attack also easily allows for fire/air burst damage procs to reliably cast as part of the skill.

I’ve tried it out a few times on berserker builds. It’s not a team-based sPvP spec due to the lack of utility, but it fares extremely well in duels no matter what build uses it.

I wish P/P had the escape mechanics that P/D had ;\
Also I just watched the OP’s video, how do you shadow strike but not teleport backwards?

Turk.5460:

I wish P/P had the escape mechanics that P/D had ;\
Also I just watched the OP’s video, how do you shadow strike but not teleport backwards?

It seems like if you position yourself at just the correct distance and position from your target, it thinks the “target is too close” and won’t teleport you. Though, I’m not sure if they by “target” mean the enemy or the backwards-teleport destination. (Probably the latter as I didn’t even target the golem) It seems to always teleport you if you target your enemy though.

Jrunyon.3012:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I’m not arguing about its capability, just like the butter knife. My point is why use a butter knife when a screwdriver is designed to fulfill the task?

But there I think is where you are wrong, and is the whole basis for this discussion.

I don’t believe that P/D was “designed” as a strictly condition set. Aside from bleeds and torment (which was added almost a year after launch btw and is the more powerful condition) the set doesn’t even have that much condition application, and is carried by the fact that you can stack bleeds quickly.

The introduction of Torment is evidence that this weapon set is designed for condition damage.

Do I deny that it is good at being a cheesy no brain condi machine gun? No. But to say it was designed only for that and using it any other way is wrong is close minded, especially when you haven’t come up with any valid points as to why power is bad besides “other things do the job better”.

When did I ever said that “power is bad”?

Like I said, you can keep using the butterknife since you find it to be useful and it works for you, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are using it wrong because there’s a better way to drive the screw and the butter knife is designed to cut butter.

I might be using a butter knife, but why would you use a screwdriver when you can use a power drill? (Necro)

This statement only makes your choice look even worst, I hope you realize that.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Idk what else this is besides you calling power bad.

I don’t play condition thief because it’s cheesy and promotes bad play habits. I don’t play Necro because I don’t particularly enjoy the class. I play power because I like the risk associated with it and the reward of seeing high numbers.

All I said to OP was power does work with p/d, which you concede that it does indeed work. Telling me I am wrong for playing a class the way I want to play, that isn’t “meta” and ridiculing me for it is low, especially when it came from nowhere and added nothing to the conversation.

You keep playing your “only one way is right” meta builds and I’ll stick to playing builds I actually enjoy.

Jrunyon.3012:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Then you’re using it wrong.

Why in the world would you pick a weapon set that scales poorly with power?

Idk what else this is besides you calling power bad.

I’m talking about the “weapon set that scales poorly with power”. No where there I’ve ever said that “power” is “bad”.

I don’t play condition thief because it’s cheesy and promotes bad play habits. I don’t play Necro because I don’t particularly enjoy the class. I play power because I like the risk associated with it and the reward of seeing high numbers.

Repeating myself;

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Like I said, you can keep using the butterknife since you find it to be useful and it works for you, but it doesn’t change the fact that you are using it wrong because there’s a better way to drive the screw and the butter knife is designed to cut butter.

All I said to OP was power does work with p/d, which you concede that it does indeed work. Telling me I am wrong for playing a class the way I want to play, that isn’t “meta” and ridiculing me for it is low, especially when it came from nowhere and added nothing to the conversation.

There are weapon sets that are designed to work well with certain build, just like the butterknife is designed to cut butter and not to drive screws.

You keep playing your “only one way is right” meta builds and I’ll stick to playing builds I actually enjoy.

But please do not claim that “P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all.” because it is designed to be exactly that.

The S/D part of your build gives you the illusion that P/D also works in a power build. Hybrid maybe, but not straight up power.

I think Sinister gear works well with it.

Why one might run this setup in my opinion:

• People think youre condi p/d and waste condi cleanse while its actually the power killing them, giving you an advantage
• You like to play ranged power + stealth capabilities
• You like this set in general
• You are in a situation where you have to fight heavy condi counters
• You want to run something different than meta
• This list can go on

I can imagine this build being fun and usefull to play in some situations, where I think condi is better in other situations.
After all this is just a “PHIW”-discussion and there is no right or wrong here. It doesn’t matter if this setup is designed for one or another, its how you play it that makes it one or another. Even if x setup be better y setup, there is still no reason not to run anything other.
If running one thing makes you enjoy the game more than running anything else, doesnt that make it the most “effective” thing for you?

To be honest, I think meta makes you predictable.

My 2 cents

Sir Vincent III.1286:

But please do not claim that “P/D doesn’t have to be a condition set at all.” because it is designed to be exactly that.

The S/D part of your build gives you the illusion that P/D also works in a power build. Hybrid maybe, but not straight up power.

You’re completely wrong but I see that you are dead set in your ways. I will not argue further, but unless you are part of the class balance team at Anet then I really don’t see how you can say exactly how it is designed.

And I mainly use S/P to clear camps so your second point is null.

P/D works wonderfully with power. I use it as well. It’s quite similar to sword auto attacks imo, which rely on fire/air.
And just because a set has some condis doesn’t automatically make it a condi weapon or vice versa,
See: warrior sword, warrior bow, necro staff, necro warhorn, mesmer staff, mesmer pistol.
Sir Vincent III is just grumpy he didn’t get his butter this morning.

MethaneGas.8357:

Sir Vincent III is just grumpy he didn’t get his butter this morning.

I learned from this thread that this is because Jrunyon is using Vincent’s butter knife.

Turk.5460:

MethaneGas.8357:

Sir Vincent III is just grumpy he didn’t get his butter this morning.

I learned from this thread that this is because Jrunyon is using Vincent’s butter knife.

lol…nice one.

To be honest, I’ve duel a lot of power P/D in WvW using my S/D + P/P set and they are not that impressive. It’s just too easy to counter. However, a Dire P/D wrecks my build every time. I’m simply speaking from experience.