Guild Wars 2

From a main thief, when I see SA thieves in PvP it just kittens me off.

1- SA players are useless because they deal low damage and cant cap while in stealth
2- any player that uses the SA trait line becomes bad so its unhealty for the game
3- sitting in stealth forever should not be rewarding because its poor gameplay

Solution, shadow rejuvanation now only heals for 20 hp per second, so if you wanna heal you would need Healing power gear. Rant over.

In before people who defend shadow arts, even though our class is harder to play than the others, shadow arts makes the thief the most faceroll class in the game. and everytime I see an SA thief I feel like deleting my thief due to how shameful that build is.

Shadow isn’t useless in PvP, that’s one of the biggest misnomers of the line.

1. When does a thief ever stand on point to contest while using dagger? They don’t. SA makes you less squishy as a thief anyways and actually give you more point presence.

2. No comment

3. Sitting in stealth forever is mostly rewarding because of the pressure of the unknown placed upon the enemy. Anything else from SA is just bonus on top of that.

glock.6590:

everytime I see an SA thief I feel like deleting my thief due to how shameful that build is.

Do it.

Someone hasn’t understood the purpose of his own class? GG

wow wow bro come on be easy
yes I play S/D myself and I don’t like SA in pvp
yes some people don’t play acro and like SA
and you’re just one big A|$|$

glock.6590:

“1- SA players are useless because they deal low damage and cant cap while in stealth”

“3- sitting in stealth forever should not be rewarding because its poor gameplay”

You refute your own argument here. As you said: SR severely lowers your dps and denies capping. It is not rewarding in any way. There’s no need to change it because it’s already bad in pvp

Shadow Arts is not optimal for PvP, and most thieves ignore that trait line because they can’t burst as good as other builds then. The new 6/0/2/0/6 build utilizes the two points in shadow arts to get a condition cleanse and is one of the few builds that actually enjoy Last Refuge.

Saying that an entire defensive trait line should be deleted because you hate it is ignorant. It has it uses, especially in WvW. It is great for new and aspiring thieves since it is more forgiving. As players get better they usually move away from SA to get more burst and learn to survive in other ways. I agree that it isn’t optimal for PvP, but that doesn’t make it useless…

I have to agree with glock. SA last trait SR needs to be toned down by 100 HPS. SA as it is becomes a crutch to god awful players and Im sick of having useless idiots that cant rotate or teamfight in my team. Ive never seen a PD thief that was actually good, and Ive also never seen a DP SA thief that I would consider high level except maybe 1.

Problem is, SA is a www spec, and more precisely, a 1vx spec, and anet stated they’re not balancing around that. I do agree, shadow arts is becoming really annoying, especially coupled with p/d, and I fear the day where I’ll meet a good player using this setup. Now, should it be nerfed? No, probably not. It’ll stay as annoying as pu mesmer, and as useless in a team pvp setting. What should be done, again in my opinion, is a reliable condition clear trait in either da or cs traitlines, to make less experienced players not reliant on SA to survive. Keep in mind D/D specs are barely viable due to SA, and nerfing it would probably destroy that weapon set totally.

Throwing some ideas here:

-give a condition clear in Deadly arts. No idea how, when, what pace; that’s why I’m not suggesting anything but rather give ideas.
-nerf the base hps of sa, up the scaling with healing power: meh. THis was suggested earlier in the post, but it’ll just make condi specs investing in healing power the same pain, nerf D/D, and it’s still a huge nerf for the class, even if the trait is totally catered to inexperienced players.
-change the S. rejunevation trait. When your cloak and dagger connects, you get regen for 3 sec, or something like that.
-Let it be. It’s not a strong pvp spec, and doesn’t give the tools of trickery. That’s probably the safest answer.

If you think SA automatically makes you bad and no decent player feel like using it then your hate is more ignorant then it seems lol. SA is toughness/healing trait line..yes even thief have a right to it..lol thief =/=glassy assasin.

Wait till they are new games modes then the conquest SA thieves will stop intimidating you and move to that. Until then I feel they have to be here and conquest should be removed.

This guy trying to destroy d/d lol thieves nerfing their nerfed selves. The game doesn’t revolve around that little circle in your server.

Sagat.3285:

If you think SA automatically makes you bad and no decent player feel like using it then your hate is more ignorant then it seems lol. SA is toughness/healing trait line..yes even thief have a right to it..lol thief =/=glassy assasin.

Wait till they are new games modes then the conquest SA thieves will stop intimidating you and move to that. Until then I feel they have to be here and conquest should be removed.

This guy trying to destroy d/d lol thieves nerfing their nerfed selves. The game doesn’t revolve around that little circle in your server.

Thieves do not need SA to survive , stop making false statements. We have blind stealth , interupt, boon steal and evades. You do not need to sit in stealth for 30 minutes to survive unless you’re bad.

glock.6590:

Sagat.3285:

If you think SA automatically makes you bad and no decent player feel like using it then your hate is more ignorant then it seems lol. SA is toughness/healing trait line..yes even thief have a right to it..lol thief =/=glassy assasin.

Wait till they are new games modes then the conquest SA thieves will stop intimidating you and move to that. Until then I feel they have to be here and conquest should be removed.

This guy trying to destroy d/d lol thieves nerfing their nerfed selves. The game doesn’t revolve around that little circle in your server.

Thieves do not need SA to survive , stop making false statements. We have blind stealth , interupt, boon steal and evades. You do not need to sit in stealth for 30 minutes to survive unless you’re bad.

When you stop exaggerating and being personal I might take you seriously lol 30 minutes. All classes have access to decent healing thief shouldn’t? Thief has decent access to stealth they shouldn’t be a way to improve it? Come to wvw at least 2 in SA is needed there unless you have s/x.

You can’t trust thieves that hide in conquest until you’ve experienced wvw diversity you are incomplete. Introduce a non conquest pvp mode and that diversity might come to pvp as well as a new meta.

Edit: lol this reminds me of when they nerfed 1v1 aspects of builds claiming to balance squad play s/d,PU,DS…

Delete all defense from all characters

Zerker amulet ONLY

No stealth.. ever!

Game is now an FPS

Uninstall

glock.6590:

Narkodx.1472:

Delete all defense from all characters

Zerker amulet ONLY

No stealth.. ever!

Game is now an FPS

Uninstall

Shadow arts is not a defensive mechanic, its a mechanic for baddies who cant play the game. Thief’s defense mechanics are blind, stealth and evades.

How can I increase the effectiveness of my defensive mechanics?

Stealth? Shadow Arts
Evades? Acrobatics

Only baddies trait to increase the effectiveness of stealth?

Narkodx.1472:

Delete all defense from all characters

Zerker amulet ONLY

No stealth.. ever!

Game is now an FPS

Uninstall

That’s the problem with shadow arts ( and PU). It’s a stealth based defense, making it totally useless in pvp, and really strong in WwW skirmishing. Problem is, thieves lack condi removal and healing over time, plus the blind spam is needed for D/D to exist. That makes SA mandatory for some specs, and incredibly strong for self sustain while allowing above average damage in all the others. All this need for stealth makes non- stealthing weaponsets weaker as well, and locks most thieves in the usual sa shadowstep/bp or inf. signet/refuge combo. Giving another reliable condi cleanse, while still maintaining their overall weakness to condi burst, would move thieves from the SA traitline. THis would allow less stealth uptime needed for recovering, and it would end up as a thief buff, and a higher playing cap, hopefully.

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.
This is one of the traits that may not need to change at all, but here is a suggestion nonetheless.

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

This is much better and constructive suggestion than delete SA it’s for baddies

The overall point I would like to make is that it is generally not used in 2/3 game modes so deleting it seems ridiculous if your argument is that it is overpowered which it is not since many other classes can trait for equal if not greater sustain than full shadow arts

Making shadow arts give benefits while revealed instead of while stealthed is a good way to make this trait line viable in ALL game modes which should be the goal

Woot! Finally another addition to the Nerf Wish List!

glock.6590:

From a main thief, when I see SA thieves in PvP it just kittens me off.

1- SA players are useless because they deal low damage and cant cap while in stealth
2- any player that uses the SA trait line becomes bad so its unhealty for the game
3- sitting in stealth forever should not be rewarding because its poor gameplay

Solution, shadow rejuvanation now only heals for 20 hp per second, so if you wanna heal you would need Healing power gear. Rant over.

In before people who defend shadow arts, even though our class is harder to play than the others, shadow arts makes the thief the most faceroll class in the game. and everytime I see an SA thief I feel like deleting my thief due to how shameful that build is.

Though I agree SA is stupid, I don’t agree that it makes you a bad player. I mained SA for the longest time, I swapped off of it and I still can beat just about anything without it, it’s just harder to 1vx in WvW. Does it need to be removed??? Meh, yes and no. I believe it just needs a tone down on the regen, truly no reason to post about it though.

I also still beat SA thieves most of the time so it’s really not that big of a deal to me.

I hate to say this but as a new player in regards to PvP, Shadow Arts has been extremely helpful in keeping me alive. I’m playing a 06620 build and it’s done me rather well- I’m probably going to switch out SA when I get more comfortable with everything but for now I’m glad I have it.

The only problem with 6 in SA is that if you’re not brain-dead, you can reset a fight however many times you want.

That said, the game isn’t balanced around 1v1 or 1vX. Like you said, in team play, resetting over and over again or sitting in stealth really is no good.

Also, sometimes you need SA to deal with faceroll condi builds.

Yeah, those “on revealed” suggestions are perfect. I +1 this.

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

Awesome.

I absolutely hate SA with a passion and also believe that HiS and Withdraw need additional Torment removal since Torment was released after these skills and the dependency for thieves remaining mobile is crazy. It’s unfair that we absolutely must trait into a specific line (especially one gated by a terrible trait like Last Refuge) just for half-decent condition cleansing on the condition that most-affects us as an entire class.

I view SA as a crutch with far too much added utility. I’d like to see more of this utility distributed elsewhere and the class, and like you mentioned, having SA reward active, engage-based stealth use rather than a passive “sit back and heal/remain un-targetable while keeping the foe in combat” approach.

haha same story for 2 years now some bad one trick burst pony got beat and the complains about a regeneration trait that does noteven stack duration with other sources of regeneration.

if sa was as bad as you say why complain? haha same story for 2 years. stealth is op 170 or so regen per tick is op, haha get a grip.

go back to sword 1 spam acro builds…

(edit)this post almost makes me want to play spvp again, almost…

Using SA doesn’t make you bad, although it is a strong traitline which is why most thieves run it. I run 2 in SA just for the condition removal because I like the playstyle of 0/6/2/6/0 better but some people like the full SA playstyle. Nothing wrong with that. It’s probably one of our best defenses which is another reason why people run it. They shouldn’t NOT be allowed to play a stealth build on a stealth class…

Although I think Shadow Rejuve regen could be reduced to ~250-280 a second.

Most classes have borderline useless trait lines for sPvP – SA for Thieves isn’t some crazy exception. It works fine in WvW and could do with some reduction, but nuking the whole thing from orbit because it doesn’t work in one game mode is just stupid.

Auesis.7301:

Most classes have borderline useless trait lines for sPvP – SA for Thieves isn’t some crazy exception. It works fine in WvW and could do with some reduction, but nuking the whole thing from orbit because it doesn’t work in one game mode is just stupid.

But it doesn’t “work fine” in WvW, does it? I don’t WvW so I’m not qualified to call it “broken”, but I can certainly see how powerful SA would be if I didn’t have to worry about losing the game because I was in stealth and it was harder to read my position while in stealth due to the fact that I don’t have to stand in a tiny circle to win the game.

Ignore OP’s silly thought of deleting shadow arts – it’s a pointless, dead-end argument. Instead, take a look at my suggestion of shifting the focus from “sit in stealth” to “engaging in combat”.

You might see it as a “nerf” from a WvW standpoint, but it’s better for the class and for the game. It also has the added benefit of semi-countering all the new “apply revealed” skills that have come and are coming in the future(make no mistake, more classes will get the power to apply revealed). Instead of an SA thief being completely locked out of the SA traitline as well as stealth (thief is the only class in the game that can have an entire traitline locked out without a counter, btw), it allows some of your traits to continue to function.

no point for removing shadow arts.. i think you’re talking about shadow rejuvenation trait? ya i do agree they shud remove or nerf that trait its kitten useless in pvp and it doesnt helping your team

glock.6590:

Solution, shadow rejuvanation now only heals for 20 hp per second, so if you wanna heal you would need Healing power gear.

Dat 0.1 healing power coefficient OP.

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

Finally someone with some sense! This would definitely shift the style from defensive to offensive and more active and fun. Love the ideas. You should post these in the balance suggestions forums, or I’ll do it for you :p

Edit: posted it here.

omg so many geniuses!!! I wonder why you are not all devs….

oh… i actuality know!

Volrath.1473:

omg so many geniuses!!! I wonder why you are not all devs….

oh… i actuality know!

Not defending everyone, but just because they’re not devs doesn’t exactly void their ideas.

Whether they’re devs or not is their own decision and choice in whatever career they might have or will have.

I think they should have two playstyles available for thief. One is Shadow Arts: The patient, lurking, waiting to strike playstyle. The other SHOULD be acrobatics, the active, aggressive playstyle. Acro by itself as a defensive mechanism is good in pvp/wvw for S/D, but I don’t really ever see anything else played with it. Even with the build I run I still have to pick 2 in SA because it lacks condition removal. I’d really love to have mug

But what I think needs to happen is encouragement to move to the active playstyle for those who want to play like that. The problem is, Shadow Arts outshines Acrobatics in WvW. They need to be equal, that way there are two different playstyles for thief.

So, keep shadow arts, buff acro’s defensive mechanics like condition removal?

cruuk will not be very happy.

Yes please will gladly hug this removal of SA, will adapt if need be.
who says thief need condition removal with 3sec interval? only bad thief needs that, for that they shall perish and evaporate with condition in large scale fights while my fellow thief using p/d condition build laughing and dancing with joy at my corpse.

Who says a Grandmaster trait line which require you to invest 30/6points and almost not viable in conquest (as they say, but we will prove them wrong) that give you regeneration while in 4sec stealth and sometimes cost you initiative is good for thief? (Shadow Refuge not included cos its badly design that will ruin your player awareness skill while in team fight and will promote element of surprise, believe me that is not we thieves ask for), sounds like healing signet for me, for thy we must call for nerf.

will gladly throw away my passive survive ability and hug deadly arts just revert the CnD damage nerf and let my Mug shall inflict crit again, and you will never see me in team fight for thy i am busy 1v1 someone in a team based game, and make him cry for thee

evilapprentice.6379:

Auesis.7301:

Most classes have borderline useless trait lines for sPvP – SA for Thieves isn’t some crazy exception. It works fine in WvW and could do with some reduction, but nuking the whole thing from orbit because it doesn’t work in one game mode is just stupid.

But it doesn’t “work fine” in WvW, does it? I don’t WvW so I’m not qualified to call it “broken”, but I can certainly see how powerful SA would be if I didn’t have to worry about losing the game because I was in stealth and it was harder to read my position while in stealth due to the fact that I don’t have to stand in a tiny circle to win the game.

Ignore OP’s silly thought of deleting shadow arts – it’s a pointless, dead-end argument. Instead, take a look at my suggestion of shifting the focus from “sit in stealth” to “engaging in combat”.

You might see it as a “nerf” from a WvW standpoint, but it’s better for the class and for the game. It also has the added benefit of semi-countering all the new “apply revealed” skills that have come and are coming in the future(make no mistake, more classes will get the power to apply revealed). Instead of an SA thief being completely locked out of the SA traitline as well as stealth (thief is the only class in the game that can have an entire traitline locked out without a counter, btw), it allows some of your traits to continue to function.

I don’t mean that it works fine as in it shouldn’t change, though it probably sounded that way. I mostly agree with your adjustments. I was only referencing the stupid assessment to just remove the whole thing.

That being said, I’m still skeptical of any attempt to shake up SA to work in sPvP. Unless the overall meta undergoes a dramatic paradigm shift, investing in SA takes away too much damage potential/pressure from the Thief’s roaming role. I can see it being forever a WvW-centric line, and I’m okay with that. Everything doesn’t have to work everywhere. For me, issues arise only when something isn’t useful or valuable anywhere, and there are definitely a lot of those in most classes.

The most OP trait line is trickery with acrobatics a close second

Geiir.7603:

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

Finally someone with some sense! This would definitely shift the style from defensive to offensive and more active and fun. Love the ideas. You should post these in the balance suggestions forums, or I’ll do it for you :p

Edit: posted it here.

You and evilapprentice are totally idiots. Sorry for the harsh words.

Even with the suggested changes, it would have no impact on pvp and pve but it would nerf WvW thieves. Basically, you are not giving considerations to one part of the game because you focus on a different part, spvp. I can’t imagine thieves running 10/0/6/0/6 for tpvp. Hell, SA isn’t even viable in high lvl tpvp. So, why are we even having this discussion? Basically, the OP got trolled by a SA in hotjoin and QQ’ed.

Ajax.5346:

Geiir.7603:

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

Finally someone with some sense! This would definitely shift the style from defensive to offensive and more active and fun. Love the ideas. You should post these in the balance suggestions forums, or I’ll do it for you :p

Edit: posted it here.

You and evilapprentice are totally idiots. Sorry for the harsh words.

Even with the suggested changes, it would have no impact on pvp and pve but it would nerf WvW thieves. Basically, you are not giving considerations to one part of the game because you focus on a different part, spvp. I can’t imagine thieves running 10/0/6/0/6 for tpvp. Hell, SA isn’t even viable in high lvl tpvp. So, why are we even having this discussion? Basically, the OP got trolled by a SA in hotjoin and QQ’ed.

A) I have no qualms (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/qualms?s=t) about ruining the “Sit in stealth” playstyle. In fact, the express purpose of these suggestions was to completely kill it. It’s poorly designed and should be eradicated from the game entirely. Looking at my suggested changes, WvW players would still get their heals and condition removal as long as they were in combat. It wouldn’t be a nerf, it’d be a shift away from a poorly designed, cheesy playstyle to a fun, well designed playstyle.

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW. It was stated clearly in the post you quoted. I’m not sure how you missed that.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ajax.5346:

Geiir.7603:

evilapprentice.6379:

Shadow arts does not need to be removed.

What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.

At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.

Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.

Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.

Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.

Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”

There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.

Finally someone with some sense! This would definitely shift the style from defensive to offensive and more active and fun. Love the ideas. You should post these in the balance suggestions forums, or I’ll do it for you :p

Edit: posted it here.

You and evilapprentice are totally idiots. Sorry for the harsh words.

Even with the suggested changes, it would have no impact on pvp and pve but it would nerf WvW thieves. Basically, you are not giving considerations to one part of the game because you focus on a different part, spvp. I can’t imagine thieves running 10/0/6/0/6 for tpvp. Hell, SA isn’t even viable in high lvl tpvp. So, why are we even having this discussion? Basically, the OP got trolled by a SA in hotjoin and QQ’ed.

A) I have no qualms (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/qualms?s=t) about ruining the “Sit in stealth” playstyle. In fact, the express purpose of these suggestions was to completely kill it. It’s poorly designed and should be eradicated from the game entirely. Looking at my suggested changes, WvW players would still get their heals and condition removal as long as they were in combat. It wouldn’t be a nerf, it’d be a shift away from a poorly designed, cheesy playstyle to a fun, well designed playstyle.

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW. It was stated clearly in the post you quoted. I’m not sure how you missed that.

A)I have no qualms (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/qualms?s=t) about ruining the “Sit in stealth” playstyle.

Thank you for letting us know your opinion that you don’t give a kitten about other people playstyle.

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

That is my whole point. Why suggest subpar changes that really doesn’t change anything?

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW.

By your own admission, you don’t play WvW so I’m going to assume you are not aware of the issue WvW thieves encounter in WvW. How can you even state/suggest changes when you don’t have a clear understanding of that game mode? As I stated before, you want blind nerf to SA for the sake of pvp.

Ajax.5346:

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

That is my whole point. Why suggest subpar changes that really doesn’t change anything?

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW.

By your own admission, you don’t play WvW so I’m going to assume you are not aware of the issue WvW thieves encounter in WvW. How can you even state/suggest changes when you don’t have a clear understanding of that game mode? As I stated before, you want blind nerf to SA for the sake of pvp.

You’ve yet to explain why you feel that the changes are sub-par, you’ve just stated it as though it were a fact (which it isnt). Just because it might hurt the way you play in WvW does not make it bad. For just 1 example, being able to continue attacking your target while still benefiting from your traits rather than being forced to sit in stealth because you need to drop that condition or need to regen some health certainly seems better to me. “On revealed” triggers mitigate revealed traps and ranger/engi skills. Not being able to just sit in stealth for benefits might hurt some playstyles, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad, you just perceive it that way.

I don’t need to play WvW to understand how powerful SA without any of SPvP’s restrictions can be – it’s plain as day. I also don’t need to play WvW to see that ANet specifically designed thief to weave in and out of stealth rather than sit in it for extended periods of time. GW2 handles stealth differently than nearly every other MMO with a stealth class in it. You’re clearly supposed to weave in and out of short duration stealth rather than stealth being a permanent, 1 shot burst skill (with your perfunctory long CD re-stealth meant as an escape). Why they designed SA to benefit from sitting in stealth as long as possible is beyond me, but it should be fixed.

If the only way SA is viable in WvW is to sit in stealth for extended periods of time rather than getting those same benefits from engaging your targets, then something is wrong.

evilapprentice.6379:

Ajax.5346:

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

That is my whole point. Why suggest subpar changes that really doesn’t change anything?

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW.

By your own admission, you don’t play WvW so I’m going to assume you are not aware of the issue WvW thieves encounter in WvW. How can you even state/suggest changes when you don’t have a clear understanding of that game mode? As I stated before, you want blind nerf to SA for the sake of pvp.

You’ve yet to explain why you feel that the changes are sub-par, you’ve just stated it as though it were a fact (which it isnt). Just because it might hurt the way you play in WvW does not make it bad. For just 1 example, being able to continue attacking your target while still benefiting from your traits rather than being forced to sit in stealth because you need to drop that condition or need to regen some health certainly seems better to me. “On revealed” triggers mitigate revealed traps and ranger/engi skills. Not being able to just sit in stealth for benefits might hurt some playstyles, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad, you just perceive it that way.

I don’t need to play WvW to understand how powerful stealth without any of SPvP’s restrictions can be – it’s plain as day. I also don’t need to play WvW to see that ANet specifically designed thief to weave in and out of stealth rather than sit in it for extended periods of time. GW2 handles stealth differently than nearly every other MMO with a stealth class in it. You’re clearly supposed to weave in and out of short duration stealth rather than stealth being a permanent, 1 shot burst skill (with your perfunctory long CD re-stealth meant as an escape). Why they designed SA to benefit from sitting in stealth as long as possible is beyond me, but it should be fixed.

I touched on it briefly in my previous post. If they follow thru with your changes, how would you spec? 10/30/30? 10/0/30/0/30? 10/0/30/30/0? I really would like to know How would a full SA thief be better than a cele d/d ele or ham/bow warrior when those classes bring much more in terms of a balance build. Why take a thief then? Basically, you have the mobility but cant do jack kitten once you get there.

“On revealed” triggers mitigate revealed traps and ranger/engi skills."

Clearly we see ranger/engi reveal skill in top lvl tpvp. Do you even pvp? Reveal changes were made for WvW….

“You’re clearly supposed to weave in and out of short duration stealth rather than stealth being a permanent”

Clearly? SA has been mostly untouched for 2 years. CLEARLY, if they saw a problem with it, they would have done something about it by now. Additionally, they add the GM trait resilience of shadow which encourages staying in stealth. So maybe you’re blind? Now revealed training in the power line is a different story. But then again, that is a different trait line. Maybe you should focus on those trait line for your offensive playstyle instead of a toughness/healing power trait line… just saying.

“1 shot burst skill "

CLEARLY, you dont play WvW nor understand it.

“If the only way SA is viable in WvW is to sit in stealth for extended periods of time rather than getting those same benefits from engaging your targets, then something is wrong.”

Nothing is wrong. Anet encourages passive play such as healing signet….

Put something other than conquest in CvC and you got yourself an happy community(for now) stop saying tpvp just say tconquest.

Ajax.5346:

evilapprentice.6379:

Ajax.5346:

B) SA isn’t viable in any level TPvP currently, which was the entirety of the point of my suggestions – to make it viable in TPvP.

That is my whole point. Why suggest subpar changes that really doesn’t change anything?

We’re having this discussion because we want SA to be viable in both PvP and WvW.

By your own admission, you don’t play WvW so I’m going to assume you are not aware of the issue WvW thieves encounter in WvW. How can you even state/suggest changes when you don’t have a clear understanding of that game mode? As I stated before, you want blind nerf to SA for the sake of pvp.

You’ve yet to explain why you feel that the changes are sub-par, you’ve just stated it as though it were a fact (which it isnt). Just because it might hurt the way you play in WvW does not make it bad. For just 1 example, being able to continue attacking your target while still benefiting from your traits rather than being forced to sit in stealth because you need to drop that condition or need to regen some health certainly seems better to me. “On revealed” triggers mitigate revealed traps and ranger/engi skills. Not being able to just sit in stealth for benefits might hurt some playstyles, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad, you just perceive it that way.

I don’t need to play WvW to understand how powerful stealth without any of SPvP’s restrictions can be – it’s plain as day. I also don’t need to play WvW to see that ANet specifically designed thief to weave in and out of stealth rather than sit in it for extended periods of time. GW2 handles stealth differently than nearly every other MMO with a stealth class in it. You’re clearly supposed to weave in and out of short duration stealth rather than stealth being a permanent, 1 shot burst skill (with your perfunctory long CD re-stealth meant as an escape). Why they designed SA to benefit from sitting in stealth as long as possible is beyond me, but it should be fixed.

I touched on it briefly in my previous post. If they follow thru with your changes, how would you spec? 10/30/30? 10/0/30/0/30? 10/0/30/30/0? I really would like to know How would a full SA thief be better than a cele d/d ele or ham/bow warrior when those classes bring much more in terms of a balance build. Why take a thief then? Basically, you have the mobility but cant do jack kitten once you get there.

you’re making an awful lot of assumptions, most of them proven wrong by precedent. 10/30/0/30/0 was a viable and effective S/D build for a while, as was 10/0/0/30/30. 30 points in a defensive traitline doesn’t mean a spec is pointless.

“On revealed” triggers mitigate revealed traps and ranger/engi skills."

Clearly we see ranger/engi reveal skill in top lvl tpvp. Do you even pvp? Reveal changes were made for WvW….

Yes, I was specifically talking about benefits in WvW, because that was what you were talking about my changes ruining. You’re either willfully misinterpreting me, not reading the posts, or not fully comprehending them. All I can do is ask that you read my posts more closely, please

“You’re clearly supposed to weave in and out of short duration stealth rather than stealth being a permanent”

Clearly? SA has been mostly untouched for 2 years. CLEARLY, if they saw a problem with it, they would have done something about it by now. Additionally, they add the GM trait resilience of shadow which encourages staying in stealth. So maybe you’re blind? Now revealed training in the power line is a different story. But then again, that is a different trait line. Maybe you should focus on those trait line for your offensive playstyle instead of a toughness/healing power trait line… just saying.

SA is 1 traitline of 1 class. Stealth is a game mechanic for all classes. The way a universal game mechanic is designed carries more weight than the way 1 traitline for 1 class was designed. As far as ANet changing things that clearly aren’t working as intended for over 2 years, P/P seems like the only precedent I need to prove my point (though it’s very much not the only precedent that exists).

“1 shot burst skill "

CLEARLY, you dont play WvW nor understand it.

Again, talking about how other games design stealth. You had to cherry pick that quote out of it’s context to represent it any other way. Please don’t spread misinformation for fun.

“If the only way SA is viable in WvW is to sit in stealth for extended periods of time rather than getting those same benefits from engaging your targets, then something is wrong.”

Nothing is wrong. Anet encourages passive play such as healing signet….

And one of the forums time honored pastimes is complaining about passive play and suggesting fixes for it, thus here we are.

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

alchemyst.2165:

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

No, that’s silly. Both a thieves defensive trait lines should be viable in PvP, WvW, and PvE. While “Revealed arts” sounds cute, you’re presenting an argument about semantics, which doesn’t really matter. It’s about better mechanics for the class.

You’ll also note that since to be revealed, you generally have to be in stealth first, as well as the fact that most of my suggestions have both a “gain stealth” and “gain revealed” component, Shadow arts still fits nicely.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

I’m not sure I trust your power of prognostication. I’m sorry that you don’t see people using a better designed SA, but I do see it. As for limiting diversity, one defensive traitline is about evading attacks, the other is about going in and out of stealth (and in my suggestion, landing stealth attacks). My suggestion does nothing to make the 2 more similar.

Once you get it down acrobatics is far greater in power than SA in every aspect except condi removal.

evilapprentice.6379:

alchemyst.2165:

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

No, that’s silly. Both a thieves defensive trait lines should be viable in PvP, WvW, and PvE. While “Revealed arts” sounds cute, you’re presenting an argument about semantics, which doesn’t really matter. It’s about better mechanics for the class.

You’ll also note that since to be revealed, you generally have to be in stealth first, as well as the fact that most of my suggestions have both a “gain stealth” and “gain revealed” component, Shadow arts still fits nicely.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

I’m not sure I trust your power of prognostication. I’m sorry that you don’t see people using a better designed SA, but I do see it. As for limiting diversity, one defensive traitline is about evading attacks, the other is about going in and out of stealth (and in my suggestion, landing stealth attacks). My suggestion does nothing to make the 2 more similar.

Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly. But what you’re suggesting won’t help the thief class. In fact, it may hurt it since you would have to be TOO active in the fight to get any bonuses from your suggestions. To get any defensive bonuses from what you are describing, you would have to be very aggressive which contradicts defense especially when you’re in the middle of the fight and need to go on the defensive. While it may seem tactical to you, what you’re saying is to basically spam stealth, which is already what people do.

In the grand scheme of things, your changes will not help the thief class, and Shadow Arts does not need changed. It’s a good trait line, arguably the best traitline a thief has. Why change it?

alchemyst.2165:

evilapprentice.6379:

alchemyst.2165:

@evilapprentice I think for your changes we might as well make a new traitline called “Revealed Arts”. I’m pretty sure Shadow Arts is meant for more passive play anyways, if you don’t like the playstyle switch to acro.

No, that’s silly. Both a thieves defensive trait lines should be viable in PvP, WvW, and PvE. While “Revealed arts” sounds cute, you’re presenting an argument about semantics, which doesn’t really matter. It’s about better mechanics for the class.

You’ll also note that since to be revealed, you generally have to be in stealth first, as well as the fact that most of my suggestions have both a “gain stealth” and “gain revealed” component, Shadow arts still fits nicely.

And from what I understand is, you’re trying to make Shadow Arts viable in tpvp right? Well for 1 thing I don’t see the point in that because even with the changes people still wouldn’t play it. Also, there is already an active playstyle for you and it’s called 6 in acrobatics. Or trickery. What you’re proposing is to restrict diversity between traitlines. There’s nothing wrong with a more passive traitline.

I’m not sure I trust your power of prognostication. I’m sorry that you don’t see people using a better designed SA, but I do see it. As for limiting diversity, one defensive traitline is about evading attacks, the other is about going in and out of stealth (and in my suggestion, landing stealth attacks). My suggestion does nothing to make the 2 more similar.

Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly. But what you’re suggesting won’t help the thief class. In fact, it may hurt it since you would have to be TOO active in the fight to get any bonuses from your suggestions. To get any defensive bonuses from what you are describing, you would have to be very aggressive which contradicts defense especially when you’re in the middle of the fight and need to go on the defensive. While it may seem tactical to you, what you’re saying is to basically spam stealth, which is already what people do.

In the grand scheme of things, your changes will not help the thief class, and Shadow Arts does not need changed. It’s a good trait line, arguably the best traitline a thief has. Why change it?

Because you’re very clearly only talking about WvW. No one who’s talking about PvP thinks of SA as “a good traitline, arguably the best traitline a thief has”.

Changing the triggers from “Sit in stealth” to “gain stealth and gain revealed” is better for the class, and for the game. You are incorrect, but If I haven’t convinced you by this point, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

alchemyst.2165:

Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly.

Why? Because of D/P, P/D or D/D thieves?