@evilapprentice.6379 The only reason SA is weak in pvp is conquest nothing from the thief itself except Last Refuge. If you and OP can’t understand that conquest only is holding thief and other class this thread is worse then it seems. Introduce new modes and improve Last Refuge and we are good to go for now.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
Because you’re very clearly only talking about WvW. No one who’s talking about PvP thinks of SA as “a good traitline, arguably the best traitline a thief has”.
Changing the triggers from “Sit in stealth” to “gain stealth and gain revealed” is better for the class, and for the game. You are incorrect, but If I haven’t convinced you by this point, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
SA will never be good for pvp because of conquest. The fact that you have to go into stealth in the first place is the reason why it isn’t good for pvp. Who would choose Shadow Arts, a thing that rewards stealth but hinders your capture point progress/contesting, over Trickery, which gives some support to allies and more damage? Besides, in pvp you would probably want to trait for more damage than defense considering a thief’s role is, put simply, DPS. Shadow Arts is a (mostly) defensive traitline. Maybe if they add new game modes SA will be viable in pvp.
But this is going nowhere, so yeah, let’s agree to disagree.
Let me just put it simpler: Shadow Arts needs little tweaking. Only thing that needs changed is the healing of Shadow’s Rejuve, which should be nerfed slightly.
Why? Because of D/P, P/D or D/D thieves?
It’s just because the healing power of it is too strong for the amount of stealth you can access with Shadow Arts. I suggest it be around 280 per second.
It’s just because the healing power of it is too strong for the amount of stealth you can access with Shadow Arts. I suggest it be around 280 per second.
So who has got a disadvantage because of it? Other classes or other thieves who haven’t invested in SA?
When I fight I’m usually stealthed for 1-3 seconds (D/D), if I use shadow refuge it’s mostly to run away or to get rid of the condi spam which of course doesn’t stop while I’m in shadow refuge. It must have a disadvantage for you guys to even suggest your own class to be nerfed.
It’s just because the healing power of it is too strong for the amount of stealth you can access with Shadow Arts. I suggest it be around 280 per second.
So who has got a disadvantage because of it? Other classes or other thieves who haven’t invested in SA?
When I fight I’m usually stealthed for 1-3 seconds (D/D), if I use shadow refuge it’s mostly to run away or to get rid of the condi spam which of course doesn’t stop while I’m in shadow refuge. It must have a disadvantage for you guys to even suggest your own class to be nerfed.
The healing must be too strong when the foe switch from player to AI mode,that point doesn’t and can’t have any back up. Just add new pvp mode. I should ask him if it’s too much in a 5v5 pressure.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
moi: the problem I have is that there are no arguments as to why it is too strong and that’s what I would like to know – you’re not making a point by comparing it either to other thieves traits (compare it to some other classes traits maybe) or by saying “it’s too strong”. I just want to understand you guys.
Edit: assassins rewards heals for 88 per point initative spend, CnD uses up 6 initative, that’ll be 528 healing, rethink your statement?
Anyway, yes, I would like to play like I’m used to and the solo roaming I’m doing is because my build hasn’t gotten any further nerfs lately. Had to give up my former build in April and I really wasn’t happy about it.
Edit²: It’s 86 and therefore 516 heal for one CnD.
If talking about whether this is worse than SA one also has to have a look at how much initative is spend, how fast initative recovers and what traits are in that traitline in general, like pain response or quick recovery. Then you have infiltrator’s signet and maybe some other aspects I don’t know of. So the whole thing is a bit more complicated than just saying “it’s too strong, anet nerf”.
No, it’s not irrelevant as what you guys want is a thief nerf so other thieves have it easier to kill other thieves – there are a lot of other classes out there who have a lot of utilities against thieves and who have also passive regeneration, passive condi removal and so on. So to me it would make more sense to say “buff xy” right now, but then again I don’t really have an overview about other classes traits and skills and general abilities. If you use S/D you have condi removal on your weaponset which is likely easier to obtain than stealthing for a D/D thief.
Edit (I should stop the editing, nonetheless): You didn’t really get my point, the point is that the healing depends on how much initative you spend over time and how easy it is for you to get initative thus more healing – it would be a different playstyle like mine right now but I can well imagine that people can generate as much healing with this traitline.
Put it this way: does anyone have fun fighting against SA thieves? Does it make interesting, engaging fights? I’m pretty sure the answer is no.
Not fun,annoying,“passive” =/= broken . Stop being personal about it most people dislike AI specs I like them my CnD lands all the time against them(too bad conquest is the only pvp mode). It’s already weak in conquest,counterable in wvw,next to useless in pve. There is no valid point on why it should change other thab obvious Last Refuge.
GM trait in healing line knowed to be inferior to others SA’s strenght come cleansing, blind(d/d,p/d)/initiative regen(d/p) and longer stealth just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it’s too strong.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
The point of this thread is how SA reward you for sit in stealth doing nothing , the reward come from the heal , the heal come from Shadow rejuv … The ability of reset the fight as thief don’t come from stealth itself but from this famous trait in SA .
I know SA is mainly for the " hidden thief playstyle " , but the regen is simply too kitten strong .
Well, I was asking other players who I know are wvw thieves and who said it was too strong, sorry that I didn’t respond to the OP with this who wanted to get rid of the complete traitline yet only seems to speak about pvp.
I can’t sit in stealth, sorry, only time I’m really able to do that is when in shadow refuge which is visible to everybody and which doesn’t make me invincible.
Put it this way: does anyone have fun fighting against SA thieves? Does it make interesting, engaging fights? I’m pretty sure the answer is no.
Depends on how much they abuse stealth. D/D for instance is fun to fight with and against, but most d/p players just hide for days and don’t engauge after they fail miserably to down you time after time.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
Put it this way: does anyone have fun fighting against SA thieves? Does it make interesting, engaging fights? I’m pretty sure the answer is no.
Depends on how much they abuse stealth. D/D for instance is fun to fight with and against, but most d/p players just hide for days and don’t engauge after they fail miserably to down you time after time.
Then what about warriors who just run away, reset, come back and do that for eternity?
Put it this way: does anyone have fun fighting against SA thieves? Does it make interesting, engaging fights? I’m pretty sure the answer is no.
Depends on how much they abuse stealth. D/D for instance is fun to fight with and against, but most d/p players just hide for days and don’t engauge after they fail miserably to down you time after time.
Then what about warriors who just run away, reset, come back and do that for eternity?
Same as d/p stealth abusers, kitten’s boring but GS mace zerker can be enjoyable. Again, the set up alone isn’t always what frustrates people its also how those builds are played.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
The suggestion posed by evilapprentice isn’t a nerf, though. If anything, it’s a buff to the skilled thieves out there. SA via rejuv is so passive, and only putting the condition cleansing in one utility and in sitting in stealth pigeon-holes too many thieves into SA + Shadowstep, especially in this condi roaming meta.
The suggestion posed by evilapprentice isn’t a nerf, though. If anything, it’s a buff to the skilled thieves out there. SA via rejuv is so passive, and only putting the condition cleansing in one utility and in sitting in stealth pigeon-holes too many thieves into SA + Shadowstep, especially in this condi roaming meta.
What it does need is to have it’s shift focused from “Sit in stealth for benefits” to “Engage in combat for benefits”.
At the moment, many of the most used SA traits give alot of incentive to sit in stealth for their benefits, regardless whether or not the current situation calls for sitting in stealth. That needs to change, and can be done easily.
Shadow’s Embrace – changed to “Remove 1 condition when you enter stealth. Remove 1 condition when you gain revealed.” Now an SA thief will mitigate conditions by staying in combat and weaving in and out of stealth, not by jumping into stealth and just sitting there.
Patience – I’ll be honest, I don’t have a great suggestion for this one, but it also need to change, partly because it incentivizes sitting in stealth, and partially because it’s buttkitten useless and nobody runs it. Perhaps something along the lines of “All CD’s tick 20% faster while revealed”, or something of the like.
Shadow Rejuvenation – changed to “Heal X when you enter stealth. Heal Y health per second while revealed”. Again, now a thief is healing by weaving in and out of stealth and fighting his opponent instead of by just sitting in stealth doing nothing. X and Y will obviously need to be playtested, since being healed while revealed is more powerful than healing while in stealth.
Resilience of shadow – changed to “Stealth effects you apply reduce incoming damage (30%). When you (and only you, not others) are revealed, reduce incoming damage by 15%.”
There you go – you now how an SA tree that’s useful in PvP and not annoying in WvW.
Yeah, I can agree with these changes. I would even go as far to make shadows embrace a master trait, but I want compensation for the Shadows Embrace change. Anet should buff one of the trickery GM traits (preferably bewildering ambush or slight of hand) by adding when you steal transfer one condition to your target. This might make S/D slightly more appealing to SA users.
[SoS] PvX Thief,
The world could use more S/x Thief
FIST FLURRY! ORA!!
Those who use SA use daggers, don’t think that you would do the two non condi players a favour by buffing a sword/condi line – but hey at least condi thieves would get a buff.
this guy would LOVE me
last week i was trolling around in hotjoin with a PERMAstealth, yes, completely permanent stealth build and i was spamming dodge rolls (with caltrops) and the caltrop utility, i actually killed quite afew people with large bleed stacks lol.
honestly it felt a little bit OP, killing people without them even seeing me once XD
I don’t even think in WvW you have to rely on full SA and Shadow Rejuvenation anyway, it’s just that it synergizes so well with D/P apart from being pretty much useless in pvp Conquest, so most Thieves trait fully into the traitline. There’s almost no point in trying to play any other way for the average Thief playerbase – just like S/D 2/0/0/6/6.
Trickery works extremely well in actual fact – which is based around getting the best out of Steal, it’s far from OP due to the lack of sustain, but you can still survive most situations with good awareness and positioning.
Scrubio
Plays completely opposite professions to his main Teef.
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
I don’t really have a problem with SA thieves (except on Mesmer) since you have to give up a lot of utility/damage for sustain so I find it fairly balanced. It may be annoying, but it isn’t over the top.
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
SE and SR aren’t that great. In all actuality 1v1 a non SA thief has the upper hand due to trickery.
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
SE and SR aren’t that great. In all actuality 1v1 a non SA thief has the upper hand due to trickery.
.You can run SA and Trickery. 2/0/6/0/6 is the meta for baddies who can’t play normally.
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
SE and SR aren’t that great. In all actuality 1v1 a non SA thief has the upper hand due to trickery.
.You can run SA and Trickery. 2/0/6/0/6 is the meta for baddies who can’t play normally.
How is the traditional condition build for thief meta in any way? Do you have a better one tough? A power thief never and shouldn’t use that. #selfmadeillusions
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140 The Dhuumfire thread
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
SE and SR aren’t that great. In all actuality 1v1 a non SA thief has the upper hand due to trickery.
.You can run SA and Trickery. 2/0/6/0/6 is the meta for baddies who can’t play normally.
Are we talking P/D condi or are we talking power thieves using this set up?
I don’t really get this position where some thieves think it should be toned down because it’s easier than their super hard man spec that takes real men to play.
Don’t you guys play all specs/modes depending on mood? Who’s actually playing ONE spec all the time in ONE game mode? I play SA heavy if I want to relax, last night I was playing pure glass signet burn build because I was fidgety and wanted to twitch and blammo people. I get WAY more reward (personal points, team support) by playing power so let the shadow lovers be so they can enjoy the game too (and I can enjoy it when I get bored of power specs and play defensive specs). All classes can be played this way… relaxing or twitchy. That’s good. Floor and Ceiling.
This game has been going the way of DAoC for too long now… whiners everywhere, class envy all over the shop and intra-class spec envy.
The problem with SA though is that it’s one way or another a massive source of thief nerfs elsewhere. There’s little room to buff/alter the class elsewhere when traits like SE and SR exist.
SE and SR aren’t that great. In all actuality 1v1 a non SA thief has the upper hand due to trickery.
Maybe not in sPvP, but go play around with them for a while in competitive WvW and then stop cold turkey running glass. You’ll discover your claim is quite false.
I am still not sure why the sa trait line is considered as training wheels, in what way exactly is it designed for new thieves or baddys? I think going acro is a easier then sa simply because of the feline grace the extra 3k health and hard to catch (it can play up but rarely this has failed me)
I use 2/0/6/0/6 in wvw as s/d and I run the sa traitline because spamming dodge isn’t my style, neither is hiding in stealth all of the time but at least I get something from stealthing (clear 1-2 conditions and some small health regen) also my party roams and is normally out numbered.
Do people say sa is noob/cheese/easy mode because it can reset a fight a bit better then a non sa their? I feel that them 100% 6/6/x/x/x are even easier as its just 2 hit kills most of the time (we are squishy already before people point that bit out)
So can some 1 actually explain why sa is considered as training wheels?
Oh also I do not play in pvp – not a fan of a game mode where you have to pidgin hold your self in meta builds to play it.
Fat Disgrace (banned) Man Flu Survivor – war/The Cabbage -Thief (gunners hold / [TaG])
SA could work very well in pvp,nothing said the thief needs to take points,thieves can’t decap a point,nor tanking one,so all this crap about stealth and capping points is stupid.
You could use SA for dealing against condi heavies+being a medic.
