Guild Wars 2

Now that Warrior’s Healing Signet was buffed, how can this grandmaster trait compare to it?

It heals for less and ticks for less, you need to sit in stealth for 4s just to get the HP regen of 2s of the Healing Signet, with the only difference that Warriors can do anything he wants while healing up, Thieves can only sit in stealth.

This trait needs a buff looking at the actual state of things, it needs to heal for at least 400 HP base per second scaling 10% with healing power.

I have felt that this trait only really provides condi dmg mitigation but eh *shrug
still feels like a necesity

Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

Yep, it probably needs, but as things stands now, it is underwhelming compared to the passive heal of that Signet.

The traiting for regeneration is out of topic, because the other two skill slot are already picked to make stealth viable (Infusion of Shadows) and condition removal (Shadow’s Embrace).

Daecollo.9578:

Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?

Because it ticks only when you are in Stealth doing nothing but waiting and because it is a Grandmaster trait of a defensive traitline, not a signet you pick and use in every build you wish.

sorrow.2364:

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

Yep, it probably needs, but as things stands now, it is underwhelming compared to the passive heal of that Signet.

The traiting for regeneration is out of topic, because the other two skill slot are already picked to make stealth viable (Infusion of Shadows) and condition removal (Shadow’s Embrace).

Daecollo.9578:

Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?

Because it ticks only when you are in Stealth doing nothing but waiting and because it is a Grandmaster trait of a defensive traitline, not a signet you pick and use in every build you wish.

Don’t see how that matters, your comparing a trait to a healing skill.

It should be balanced around other Grandmaster Traits

Such As:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing
Player is healed for:
Healing: 133 every 3 seconds.

Also a Grandmaster Defensive Trait line.

Compared to other Grandmaster traits that heal, its quite powerful.

sorrow.2364:

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

Yep, it probably needs, but as things stands now, it is underwhelming compared to the passive heal of that Signet.

The traiting for regeneration is out of topic, because the other two skill slot are already picked to make stealth viable (Infusion of Shadows) and condition removal (Shadow’s Embrace).

Daecollo.9578:

Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?

Because it ticks only when you are in Stealth doing nothing but waiting and because it is a Grandmaster trait of a defensive traitline, not a signet you pick and use in every build you wish.

Don’t get tunnelvisioned into thinking that unless you take “those” 3 traits, going into stealth is useless.
While I think Infusion of Shadow is a must have for a lot of stealth builds, I’d say that Shadow Embrace could easily be swapped for something else – the regen on stealth being one of those. We already have good condition removal (Hide in Shadows cleanses every damaging condition except Torment, Shadow Step cleanses 3 conditions), so there are some scenarios in which regen on stealth is a good choice.
When I duel people not relying heavily on conditions, I usually take it with me and I do really good

As for the other part, having a trait being BETTER than a direct healing skill ON TOP of having a healing skill ourselves is a bit over the top. That’s why it’s fine as it is.

hihey.1075:

sorrow.2364:

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

Yep, it probably needs, but as things stands now, it is underwhelming compared to the passive heal of that Signet.

The traiting for regeneration is out of topic, because the other two skill slot are already picked to make stealth viable (Infusion of Shadows) and condition removal (Shadow’s Embrace).

Daecollo.9578:

Why should a #6 heal less or the same then a trait?

Because it ticks only when you are in Stealth doing nothing but waiting and because it is a Grandmaster trait of a defensive traitline, not a signet you pick and use in every build you wish.

Don’t get tunnelvisioned into thinking that unless you take “those” 3 traits, going into stealth is useless.
While I think Infusion of Shadow is a must have for a lot of stealth builds, I’d say that Shadow Embrace could easily be swapped for something else – the regen on stealth being one of those. We already have good condition removal (Hide in Shadows cleanses every damaging condition except Torment, Shadow Step cleanses 3 conditions), so there are some scenarios in which regen on stealth is a good choice.
When I duel people not relying heavily on conditions, I usually take it with me and I do really good

As for the other part, having a trait being BETTER than a direct healing skill ON TOP of having a healing skill ourselves is a bit over the top. That’s why it’s fine as it is.

I think Shadow’s Rejuvenation should be removed, replaced as a #6 Healing Skill.
Healing: 593 (0.1)? per second while in stealth.

Did you know with 1700 healing power.
Healing Signet heals for 477 Hp/S.
Shadow’s Rejuvenation heals for 463 Hp/S.

Yes, Healing Signet scales 2x worse with Healing Power then a Trait does.

What you guys are missing is that Shadow Rejuvenation comes at an huge opportunity cost. To being healed you can’t attack and you have to sit in Stealth as long as you want to be healed. If Shadow Rejuvenation was an unconditionated passive healing, then my argument would not make sense because a Grandmaster regen traiting stacking on top of the main heal skill is too much, but we are talking about a trait that ticks for MAX 4 times and requires you to do nothing at all in the time it ticks and has an entry cost of either 6 initiative and/or an utility skill.
You can’t compare directly the numbers or other passive regen traits without considering that part.

Also, even when fully geared with Healing Power, healing signet’s regen is higher than Shadow’s Rejuvenation. A passive regen with no requirement whatsoever except bring a specific healing skill is far superior to a grandmaster and build-defining trait. Why is that supposed to be balanced?

sorrow.2364:

What you guys are missing is that Shadow Rejuvenation comes at an huge opportunity cost. To being healed you can’t attack and you have to sit in Stealth as long as you want to be healed. If Shadow Rejuvenation was an unconditionated passive healing, then my argument would not make sense because a Grandmaster regen traiting stacking on top of the main heal skill is too much, but we are talking about a trait that ticks for MAX 4 times and requires you to do nothing at all in the time it ticks and has an entry cost of either 6 initiative and/or an utility skill.
You can’t compare directly the numbers or other passive regen traits without considering that part.

Also, even when fully geared with Healing Power, healing signet’s regen is higher than Shadow’s Rejuvenation. A passive regen with no requirement whatsoever except bring a specific healing skill is far superior to a grandmaster and build-defining trait. Why is that supposed to be balanced?

You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill.
Your trait scales with healing power better then a healing skill. (0.1 SR vs 0.05 HS.)
Your asking for one of the best healing traits in the game, to be even better.

There is another HoT that is a Grandmaster you can compare it to.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing

Daecollo.9578:

You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill.
Your trait scales with healing power better then a healing skill.
Your asking for one of the best healing traits in the game, to be even better.

I can and I did.
An healing skill does not require you to spend any trait at all. A grandmaster trait requires you to spend 30 traitpoints into a specific traitline. So, as far as it stands, Healing Skill > Grandmaster trait in terms of versatility.
We can even compare it to Adrenal Health, which is a master minor trait (15 tp required) and heals for ~130 HP/s passively at least when full adrenaline, without the need to not attack or anything else. That stacks on top of the Healing Signet passive regen.

That trait, even if it scales better with healing power, can’t reach the healing potential of Healing Signet, even when throwing at it the max healing power available.
And a Thief has no other passive regen to stack it further, while warrior has.

Daecollo.9578:

There is another HoT that is a Grandmaster you can compare it to.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing

I’ll repeat that to you again.
Do you see anything written in that trait that says: “you need to be in stealth to be healed”? I can’t see that part.

sorrow.2364:

Daecollo.9578:

You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill.
Your trait scales with healing power better then a healing skill.
Your asking for one of the best healing traits in the game, to be even better.

I can and I did.
An healing skill does not require you to spend any trait at all. A grandmaster trait requires you to spend 30 traitpoints into a specific traitline. So, as far as it stands, Healing Skill > Grandmaster trait in terms of versatility.
We can even compare it to Adrenal Health, which is a master minor trait (15 tp required) and heals for ~130 HP/s passively at least when full adrenaline, without the need to not attack or anything else. That stacks on top of the Healing Signet passive regen.

That trait, even if it scales better with healing power, can’t reach the healing potential of Healing Signet, even when throwing at it the max healing power available.
And a Thief has no other passive regen to stack it further, while warrior has.

They don’t need passive Regen, they have SoM and Hide in Shadows.

Sorry, however your post makes no sense.

Your trait is quite powerful and fine compared to other traits available.

Your asking for something that will never be done, because its extremely unbalanced compared to what is already available.

You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill ever.

This post will slowly be ignored, because you have no idea or any concept of class balance.

Daecollo.9578:

They don’t need passive Regen, they have SoM and Hide in Shadows.

Sorry, however your post makes no sense.

Your trait is quite powerful and fine compared to other traits available.

Your asking for something that will never be done, because its extremely unbalanced compared to what is already available.

You can’t compare a trait to a healing skill ever.

This post will slowly be ignored, because you have no idea or any concept of class balance.

Said from you, Daecollo, it sounds funny.

Anyway, I’ve pointed out how Shadow Rejuvenation has an heavy opportunity cost and less versatility compared to an healing skill regen.

Also, SoM and Shadow Rejuvenation just doesn’t work together, as you will surely know.

I’m just asking how it makes sense that a trait that, compared to Healing Signet:
- Heals for less
- Needs you to not attack
- Needs you to get into stealth to work
- Needs you to spend 30 points into a defensive traitline
- Ticks for max 4 times
- It is on a way squishier profession
- Can’t be stacked with other non-boon passive regen traits, since thief hasn’t anymore available

Of course the reasons are two. Either Healing Signet is insanely OP or Shadow Rejuvenation is UP. You choose.

^Healing signet can slightly be toned down

But honestly, fighting against a healing signet warrior is a fair match, likely very very slow. The only problem you have with a full stealth build, is that he heals while you’re in stealth. Try a non-stealth build and you’ll see they aren’t that op. The tactic against warriors is to keep damaging them. Also, try and get that poison on them, it helps a lot.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

^Healing signet can slightly be toned down

But honestly, fighting against a healing signet warrior is a fair match, likely very very slow. The only problem you have with a full stealth build, is that he heals while you’re in stealth. Try a non-stealth build and you’ll see they aren’t that op. The tactic against warriors is to keep damaging them. Also, try and get that poison on them, it helps a lot.

Non-stealth build is even worse.
The damage they do is extremely high while the damage you deal to them is low and easily outhealed by the passive regen.
If you manage to evade all of their stuns/conditions/etc, the fight will be extremely slow and will eventually lead to your loss.

You can reliably mantain poison the whole time on warrior without sitting all the time on Shortbow, that means that your damage output is considerably low.

I use a Regen build on my Warrior in Spvp. It’s insanely OP either way.

There’s not much point in using my Thief in spvp when I can just use that easymode.

sorrow.2364:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

^Healing signet can slightly be toned down

But honestly, fighting against a healing signet warrior is a fair match, likely very very slow. The only problem you have with a full stealth build, is that he heals while you’re in stealth. Try a non-stealth build and you’ll see they aren’t that op. The tactic against warriors is to keep damaging them. Also, try and get that poison on them, it helps a lot.

Non-stealth build is even worse.
The damage they do is extremely high while the damage you deal to them is low and easily outhealed by the passive regen.
If you manage to evade all of their stuns/conditions/etc, the fight will be extremely slow and will eventually lead to your loss.

You can reliably mantain poison the whole time on warrior without sitting all the time on Shortbow, that means that your damage output is considerably low.

The only way to apply poison reliably on Warriors without giving up a needed utility is by using Sigil of Doom (30% poison on crits) on your weapons.

hihey.1075:

The only way to apply poison reliably on Warriors without giving up a needed utility is by using Sigil of Doom (30% poison on crits) on your weapons.

There is no 30% chance of poison on crit sigil in this game.
The one you are referring is 5s poison on weapon swap.

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

I completely disagree.

If a thief has access to Shadow Rejuvenation , they can still access to a burst heal.

Healing signet burst heal is awful.

runeblade.7514:

I completely disagree.

If a thief has access to Shadow Rejuvenation , they can still access to a burst heal.

Healing signet burst heal is awful.

Yeah, but the Thief has spent 30 points into a defensive traitline.
If the Warrior do the same in Tactics, he will get burst healing too via shout.

sorrow.2364:

Gwalchgwn.1659:

^Healing signet can slightly be toned down

But honestly, fighting against a healing signet warrior is a fair match, likely very very slow. The only problem you have with a full stealth build, is that he heals while you’re in stealth. Try a non-stealth build and you’ll see they aren’t that op. The tactic against warriors is to keep damaging them. Also, try and get that poison on them, it helps a lot.

Non-stealth build is even worse.
The damage they do is extremely high while the damage you deal to them is low and easily outhealed by the passive regen.
If you manage to evade all of their stuns/conditions/etc, the fight will be extremely slow and will eventually lead to your loss.

You can’t reliably mantain poison the whole time on warrior without sitting all the time on Shortbow, that means that your damage output is considerably low.

I manage to evade most of them, so yeah, the fight is extremely slow, but doesn’t eventually (guaranteed) result in my loss. I win those fights now and then too.

Also I assume you mean the bold edited part? Doesn’t rly make much sense otherwise. I didn’t mean maintain poison, even getting poison on him occasionally works wonders. Dagger auto attack does it, traited steal is able to do it.

Anyway, i’m just saying that right now, it’s a very very tiresome and long fight, but do-able. So imo healing signet can be toned down a little, but shadow rejuvenation is good as it is. A fight between a stealth thief and a healing signet warrior is naturally very skewed because of the basic mechanic of their builds.

runeblade.7514:

hihey.1075:

I think it’s fine as it is.
If anything, it’s Warrior’s Healing Signet who needs to be toned down, making it scale more with Healing Power – but that’s a different topic.
Keep in mind that you can also trait to have a “free” regeneration when going into stealth which, coupled with 300 Healing Power for 30 SA, could heal you for a lot more.

I completely disagree.

If a thief has access to Shadow Rejuvenation , they can still access to a burst heal.

Healing signet burst heal is awful.

If shadow rejuvenation would be active all the time I’d agree with you.
If you stay in stealth for more than 50% of the fight either you are a bad thief or you are getting badly outplayed and should consider running away. If you stay less than 50% of the fight in stealth, you are gaining only 25% of the Healing provided by the Signet.
Healing Signet base healing needs to be toned down. It is dumb that with 1600 healing power it only heals for 20% more.

Daecollo.9578:

This post will slowly be ignored, because you have no idea or any concept of class balance.

Ha. Aha. Ahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This thread is still going? Heheheee!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing

This grandmaster trait isn’t fair, it barely heals the same as Healing Signet!

133 hp/s vs 392 hp/s!

Buff it to 392 hp/s like Healing Signet!!!111

No seriously, SR is the best healing trait in the game at the moment, combined with the ability to remove a condition every three seconds and then more-so when you go into stealth, this would make D/P even more trollsy and stupid then it already is.

Now, even though logic will probably fly past your head. Thief does more burst damage then warrior does, so even if your not attacking you can spam moves faster and your initiative is coming back, unlike warrior who has to rely on cool-downs.

Also unlike Warrior, Thief has stealth, and not only is he not being directly attacked, he can’t even be seen while hes stealthed.

The warriors moves are less mobile, and he has to stand there taking attacks unlike thief who can blink around and stealth and stay hidden. They have no “Get out of jail free cards.” if they are chilled or immobilized, unlike thief. This is one of the reasons why my thief almost Never dies in WvWvW.

Also unlike Warrior, Thief has access to one of the most amazing conditions in the game. Poison, which can be put on the target forever in the right build, Poison allows the Thief to wittle down opponents better then ever and completely destroys the regeneration of the signet.

Now stacked with all that logic, this is also a TRAIT, a TRAIT will never be as good as a healing skill.

Now, if it is made the same healing as a healing skill, then lol, we have a loooot of traits to improve.

War has traits that are as good/better than healing skills. ;o

Daecollo.9578:

This thread is still going? Heheheee!

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing

This grandmaster trait isn’t fair, it barely heals the same as Healing Signet!

133 hp/s vs 392 hp/s!

Buff it to 392 hp/s like Healing Signet!!!111

---

No seriously, SR is the best healing trait in the game at the moment, combined with the ability to remove a condition every three seconds and then more-so when you go into stealth, this would make D/P even more trollsy and stupid then it already is.

Now, even though logic will probably fly past your head. Thief does more burst damage then warrior does, so even if your not attacking you can spam moves faster and your initiative is coming back, unlike warrior who has to rely on cool-downs.

Also unlike Warrior, Thief has stealth, and not only is he not being directly attacked, he can’t even be seen while hes stealthed.

The warriors moves are less mobile, and he has to stand there taking attacks unlike thief who can blink around and stealth and stay hidden. They have no “Get out of jail free cards.” if they are chilled or immobilized, unlike thief. This is one of the reasons why my thief almost Never dies in WvWvW.

Also unlike Warrior, Thief has access to one of the most amazing conditions in the game. Poison, which can be put on the target forever in the right build, Poison allows the Thief to wittle down opponents better then ever and completely destroys the regeneration of the signet.

Now stacked with all that logic, this is also a TRAIT, a TRAIT will never be as good as a healing skill.

Now, if it is made the same healing as a healing skill, then lol, we have a loooot of traits to improve.

Still mentioning that trait… Natural Healing is an horrible trait nobody is not going to pick except in full Beastmaster builds, because you are investing 30 points in that traitline only for the pet damage boost and because the other Grandmaster trait sucks even more.

SR is not the best healing trait in the game. Adrenal Health, Backpack Regenerator and Soothing Mist are far better regen traits and none of them is grandmaster. You can do the math by yourself to realize how much time you have to sit in stealth in a 20s time window to match the healing output of those traits.

If you’re not good at math, I’ll do that for you:

• Backpack Regenerator: 2340/20s => about 7.8s of stealth => 39% stealth uptime
• Soothing Mist: 1600/20s => about 5.3s of stealth => 26% stealth uptime
• Adrenal Health: 2520/21s => about 8.4s of stealth => 40% stealth uptime

That means that to have the same healing output of those non-grandmaster traits, you have to sit in Stealth for the durations I’ve listed without breaking it. Consider the “stealth uptime” as “doing nothing” uptime.

If you want, I can compare the healing output of SR+main healing skill with the healing output of Healing Signet alone to show you how much time you need to sit in Stealth doing nothing to match the passive healing potential of Healing Signet.

Warrior has crazy burst capability too, don’t pretend it isn’t true.

Stealth for thief is just a stalemate. You can’t attack, but you can be still attacked by your opponent.

Warrior moves are less mobile? Tell them to Sword/warhorn + GS warriors, because those are the only kind of warriors you see in WvWvW and they are far from a static build. In a second you create a gap of 2000+ units and you don’t even ran out of initiative doing so.

Poison can’t be keep up forever on targets. Only if you sit in shortbow and spam 4 you are capable to properly mantain poison, otherwise it will be just cleansed with Cleansing Ire.

Auesis.7301:

Daecollo.9578:

This post will slowly be ignored, because you have no idea or any concept of class balance.

Ha. Aha. Ahahah. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shadow rejuventaion doesn’t scale correctly with level compared to regeneration. I went into few zones to test it and and seemed to go from 60% of regeneration at level 2 up to 170% of regeneration at level 80. I’m guessing this is a bug rather than something peculiar with stat scaling. I’m guessing you shouldn’t use shadow rejuventaion in ascalonian catacombs.

sorrow.2364:

Now that Warrior’s Healing Signet was buffed, how can this grandmaster trait compare to it?

It heals for less and ticks for less, you need to sit in stealth for 4s just to get the HP regen of 2s of the Healing Signet, with the only difference that Warriors can do anything he wants while healing up, Thieves can only sit in stealth.

This trait needs a buff looking at the actual state of things, it needs to heal for at least 400 HP base per second scaling 10% with healing power.

wow, whoa, this trait is fine. its the wars healing sig which is ridiculous. not the trait that needs a buff. if anything this trait becomes op when used by a D/P build.
and dont ramble on to me about wars, i know, they are more ridiculous and should be nerfed.