Guild Wars 2

Shadows Rejuvenation is immensely strong.
Granted, it is a grandmaster trait, but what bothers me the most about it, is not per se the numbers, but the design. Perhaps with the exception of the 1 condi/3 sec cleanse in stealth, this is borderline the only trait that actively encourages sitting in stealth for ages. And it rewards doing that, highly so.

While the current, and similar HoT numbers, of approx. 300-330 hp/s in stealth, is ridiculously high (on par with what most healing skills can provide in consistent usage), I feel that it is of a design that does not belong to thief. If we look at every weaponset, and the general direction of traits and traitlines of thief, they all encourage active/reactive play.
Enemy attacks you? Dodge that kitten! Or blind it!
Not soak it up, stealth up, and go hide in a corner until you’re at full health again.

Not to mention, Shadows Rejuvenation outperforms the other choices by a very large margin, both in the past, present, and in the HoT outline. The sheer performance of the trait arguably leads to it carrying bad/lesser skilled/experienced players in fights that they’d otherwise lose, purely due to the atrocious game of attrition it allows.
A potent tactic, both for X/D builds, but perhaps moreso for D/P, is that if you’re losing, simply keep a distance, and keep stealthing. The sheer level of sustain it brings, and gameplay it promotes, is just so… not thief-y.

I dont consider myself a thief hater, nor a shadow arts hater (in general), but that single, build-defining trait, I just wish it would get removed, and replaced with something else that fit the theme of stealth, as well as active gameplay.
If I were to come up with a replacement, I’d like to see a trait meant for offensive use.
How about something that gave X amount of initiative when gaining Revealed (IE, breaking stealth through damage)?

Finally, shadow arts could be a traitline dedicated to repositioning, use of stealth for offensive purposes, and light sustain (through the Shadow Protector and Shadows Embrace traits).

Perma stealth is gone with the ditching of infusion of shadow

Your entire rant is pointless

Probablem for me is, and they seem to care about this because they admitted clone death “promotes unhealthy game patterns”, I tend to feel like SR also promotes unhealthy game play. As it stands, you just go in, harass, and leave mostly uncontested and can circles around someone like a shark until you’re good and ready to strike again, and because you can heal in stealth beyond that it yes leverage to basically be able to hit and run infinitely until you win, and things go your way. The only thing that stops it from working in sPvP is that stealth doesn’t cap nodes, but come Stronghold, these types of builds (especially the new 1/0/1/0/1 build) is just far too safe and still incredibly powerful. It’s certainly not fun or engaging to play against…

I agree it should work like invigorating precision or assassin’s reward where you get sustain through active play/offence.

Perhaps change it to something like gain ~280 health every second and 1 initiative every 3 sec while you have reveal on. (the hp per sec would be lower in spvp because you have a longer reveal but you would get the same amount of hp overall).
This would mean that you could not cheese out fights by dropping poison and then camp in stealth for 8 sec to regain most of your life back, but instead would reward thieves rapidly going in and out of stealth (which is what shadow arts is akin to now with traits like hidden assassin building might and cloaked in shadows covering you).

T raw.4658:

Perma stealth is gone with the ditching of infusion of shadow

Your entire rant is pointless

Perma stealth has nothing to do with this rant, and I specifically said so. Perma stealth would imply that the trait is only useful in instances where you are sitting in stealth for prolonged periods of time. Fact is, those 3-4 seconds of stealth here and there, they easily add up, and my main point was that the trait promoted unhealthy (thanks for the expression guys) gameplay.
I play either D/P 26006, D/P 60206, S/D 20066 or D/D 66200 (wvw funtimes), and on the two first builds, without infusion of shadow, I can easily stack long periods of stealth – even moreso if I had the SA passive that adds 1 second to stealth.

Your entire post is pointless

They nerfed it when they removed Cloaked in the Shadows, every class got a power creep while they slap a miserable initiative gain to it, it’s seems fine to me. Resilience will probably become 25-30% so it’s all fine, Shadow Arts is a tank/recovery/support line yes even thieves can have it.

What does sitting in stealth matter? They are not doing anything to you.

EDIT: Besides its essentially a crappy healing signet sept with less passive.

Verilan.2963:

T raw.4658:

Perma stealth is gone with the ditching of infusion of shadow

Your entire rant is pointless

Perma stealth has nothing to do with this rant, and I specifically said so. Perma stealth would imply that the trait is only useful in instances where you are sitting in stealth for prolonged periods of time. Fact is, those 3-4 seconds of stealth here and there, they easily add up, and my main point was that the trait promoted unhealthy (thanks for the expression guys) gameplay.
I play either D/P 26006, D/P 60206, S/D 20066 or D/D 66200 (wvw funtimes), and on the two first builds, without infusion of shadow, I can easily stack long periods of stealth – even moreso if I had the SA passive that adds 1 second to stealth.

Your entire post is pointless

Proper use of d/p does not rely on stealth. Even a d/p player who is fully spec’d into SA now benefits more from less stealth spam.

After HoT if you are fighting a d/p user who is spamming stealth they will run out of init well before they can kill any competent player in this game. Now if you are saying an extra 1k healing every 10-15 seconds is OP then I can’t help you because every single other class has better healing options than thieves currently do.

You mean Shadow Protector should be reworked since it’s mechanics make no sense. Reju is fine and it doesn’t outperform the other options, actually.

yolo swaggins.2570:

What does sitting in stealth matter? They are not doing anything to you.

EDIT: Besides its essentially a crappy healing signet sept with less passive.

Because it’s a “crappy healing signet” on top of a heal and condition removal and 50% damage reduction, and allows people to recover faster than an enemy and hit and run. They aren’t doing “nothing”, they are rebuilding faster than an enemy can to tear them down safely, hence why I suggest it’s just incredibly unfun to fight. Sort of how people see Turrets as unfun to fight, which seemed to have weight for thieves, but they can’t see how this could be plainly too frustrating to fight, OUTSIDE of conquest of course where it doesn’t have restrictions to its effectiveness.

Frankly, I’d prefer something that gets people playing, like if it was changed to…
Shadow Ward:
When exiting stealth gain a 4 second buff healing over time (similar to shadow rejuv now) and 4 seconds of protection.

That way, you’re encouraged to fight and have some actual defense while standing toe to toe. Numbers are adjustable, but the idea is there. Promote actual active play and combat defenses.

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

What does sitting in stealth matter? They are not doing anything to you.

EDIT: Besides its essentially a crappy healing signet sept with less passive.

Because it’s a “crappy healing signet” on top of a heal and condition removal and 50% damage reduction, and allows people to recover faster than an enemy and hit and run. They aren’t doing “nothing”, they are rebuilding faster than an enemy can to tear them down safely, hence why I suggest it’s just incredibly unfun to fight. Sort of how people see Turrets as unfun to fight, which seemed to have weight for thieves, but they can’t see how this could be plainly too frustrating to fight, OUTSIDE of conquest of course where it doesn’t have restrictions to its effectiveness.

Frankly, I’d prefer something that gets people playing, like if it was changed to…
Shadow Ward:
When exiting stealth gain a 4 second buff healing over time (similar to shadow rejuv now) and 4 seconds of protection.

That way, you’re encouraged to fight and have some actual defense while standing toe to toe. Numbers are adjustable, but the idea is there. Promote actual active play and combat defenses.

Oh please. It is a heal. This is no different than the heals off a Shoutbow warrior , a Medi Guardian or a Elementalist entering water for more heals.

“Active play” is a meaningless term. I play thieves and against them and I do not think they go for a cup of coffee when they enter stealth. They remain active. The only difference is they are not inflicting damage which is a tradeoff for a “fat” heal.

If a thief sits in hiding against a warrior using a healing signet and banner that warrior will heal up as well even as he smashes the area around him with his hammer trying to find the thief. Regen rangers will still heal up as that Thief hid and Engineers will regen off their healing turret as they run in circles dropping bombs.

Just because someone has to press a button to get an instant heal off a shout, a meditation, an elixir or some other heal utility type heal as opposed to pressing a button and remaining in stealth to get a heal that takes place over a longer period of time does not mean one is more “active” than another.

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

T raw.4658:

Perma stealth is gone with the ditching of infusion of shadow

Your entire rant is pointless

Extra initiative in stealth (SR buff) with the cloak and dagger trick or useing black powder.

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

Just as a BTW I have three thieves now and might well roll a fourth. None of them spec this trait not even my cheese p/d spec as I much prefer maintaining pressure over hiding in stealth trying to regen health. As some others mentioned I prefer to use my INI to inflict damage over getting healed.

Playing against a thief that uses SR to reset fights is no more irritating then playing against all of those other builds that rely on heals/armor blocks to maintain high health. It can take longer to bring them down and to take them down I would rather my INI used for my attacks.

The claim “it promotes active gameplay” as a reason to change this skill is a non sequiter. Active gameplay is a player choice. If they want to sit in hiding rather then engage an enemy it not because they MUST. It a choice they make just like some people would rather sit in a tower and shoot at another with a balli over going out and engaging in wvw.

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

You are arguing against STEALTH . 4 seconds in stealth does NOT add a lot of health. the base is around 1200 health. That health can be taken down with a single hammer blow. Your thief usually has a lot less health then that warrior with that hammer and has a lot less healing than does that guardian.

ronpierce.2760:

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

Any class can kill multiple players at the same time.
That’s also know as a problem between the screen and the chair.
And excessive misuse of Zerk gear.

And please, not “at once”. SA thieves kill slowly, one target at a time.

Remove this trait from the game and make Resilience a GM, or we’re going to witness cancer all around.

Dark FQ.1038:

T raw.4658:

Perma stealth is gone with the ditching of infusion of shadow

Your entire rant is pointless

Extra initiative in stealth (SR buff) with the cloak and dagger trick or useing black powder.

It’s what 1 extra init every 3-4 secs….gtfo here with that

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

Thank you for posting this as now i can end this argument.

40% of 12,000 hp is 4800 hps. For a thief to fully rejuvenate to 100% health by utilizing shadow rejuvenation is like 20 seconds.

That’s 20 seconds of uninterrupted stealth….

1. HoT removes 20 secs of stealth.
2. Most classes who solo roam can fully heal in 20 secs
3. Most thieves are running more than 12k hps so it’s longer…

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

Thank you for posting this as now i can end this argument.

40% of 12,000 hp is 4800 hps. For a thief to fully rejuvenate to 100% health by utilizing shadow rejuvenation is like 20 seconds.

That’s 20 seconds of uninterrupted stealth….

1. HoT removes 20 secs of stealth.
2. Most classes who solo roam can fully heal in 20 secs
3. Most thieves are running more than 12k hps so it’s longer…

You don’t have a heal either, I take it? SR replaced your healing capabilities entirely and is your only source of healing or something?

Do the math with both players having a heal and tell me how it goes.

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

Thank you for posting this as now i can end this argument.

40% of 12,000 hp is 4800 hps. For a thief to fully rejuvenate to 100% health by utilizing shadow rejuvenation is like 20 seconds.

That’s 20 seconds of uninterrupted stealth….

1. HoT removes 20 secs of stealth.
2. Most classes who solo roam can fully heal in 20 secs
3. Most thieves are running more than 12k hps so it’s longer…

You don’t have a heal either, I take it? SR replaced your healing capabilities entirely and is your not source of healing or something?

But you’re talking about SR, not SR + heal skill.

You can’t complain about SR and claim that it’ll get a thief up to 100%, be proven wrong, then go “But you didn’t factor in the heal!”. Of course we didn’t, we’re talking about the healing you get from SR.

I get the feeling you just don’t like SR and you feel that’s enough of a reason for it to be changed.

Do the math with both players having a heal and tell me how it goes.

Why would we? We’re talking about SR, not “SR and all the other possible ways you could heal”.

evilapprentice.6379:

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.
Snip some

Thank you for posting this as now i can end this argument.

40% of 12,000 hp is 4800 hps. For a thief to fully rejuvenate to 100% health by utilizing shadow rejuvenation is like 20 seconds.

That’s 20 seconds of uninterrupted stealth….

1. HoT removes 20 secs of stealth.
2. Most classes who solo roam can fully heal in 20 secs
3. Most thieves are running more than 12k hps so it’s longer…

You don’t have a heal either, I take it? SR replaced your healing capabilities entirely and is your not source of healing or something?

But you’re talking about SR, not SR + heal skill.

You can’t complain about SR and claim that it’ll get a thief up to 100%, be proven wrong, then go “But you didn’t factor in the heal!”. It’s silly and non-sensical.

I get the feeling you just don’t like SR and you don’t really have a firm reason as to why.

The discussion was he can leave and regenerate faster than the enemy then re-engage safely effectively and safely wearing down the enemy. His point was that the enemy can use their heal twice by time SR fully heals them back to life, but he wouldn’t be relying on SR alone and would heal just as well as his enemy would. SR is a bonus. Hence me saying that they OUT-regenerate their foe and re-engage, making it a potent hit and run mechanic. Having SR doesn’t remove your heal from the bar.

Also, yes I do hate it. It’s a corny design to stealth and heal to reset fights whenever you need to. There are just as nice alternatives that could be made that would make it an active combat defense rather than a cheesy reset mechanic.

^^But it was a theoretical approach to a realistic scenario. If you, for whatever reason, like the design and implementation of shadows rejuvenation, thats fine, you’re of course entitled to your opinion, but the point of Sikari’s example was to exemplify how sitting in stealth makes a thief (using either Hide in Shadows or Withdraw as heal – lets not go full strawman with venom or signet heal) regenerate his health much faster than any other class, only somewhat rivaled by a ranger or warrior who has specced completely into regen (meaning dolyak runes, mango pie food, healing signet, banner regen, all that sort of stuff).

I may have worded it a bit too zealously (I do despise the trait and the playstyle it enforces) in my starting post, but my point still stands that the trait contributes grossly to the potential (and by extent, realized) health regeneration of shadow arts thieves, to the point where it makes them so sustain-y, that it becomes a game of hide and seek, where you have to repeatedly outdps them faster than they can regain stealth, which in a realistic scenario (in wvw of course, SA is all but unused and unviable in conquest for obvious reasons) is borderline impossible – unless assuming the SA thief kittens up.

Again, I respect your entitlement to opinions, but I cannot help but think that people would defend the trait simply because they used it, rather than acknowledging the glaring issues in its design and implementation.

Oh, one last thing,

babazhook.6805:

You are arguing against STEALTH . 4 seconds in stealth does NOT add a lot of health. the base is around 1200 health. That health can be taken down with a single hammer blow. Your thief usually has a lot less health then that warrior with that hammer and has a lot less healing than does that guardian.

Agreed, sort of, 1200 hp in itselt is nothing to sneeze at, but think about it, how much time do you actually spend in stealth in a fight? And how frequently? It really adds up.

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

babazhook.6805:

ronpierce.2760:

There is a huge difference in basking in a stealth all-purpose heal and using a shout to heal, like you know, being able to train them down still, being able to actually persue your enemy.

SA being the “Tanky spec” keeps being used but it’s not. It’s the safe hit-and-run tree. There’s very little about it that helps make it Tanky rather than a reset tree. It’s about as corny as PU is.

Which is why the argument that it needs a downtweak invalid. It a distinctly different type of heal then the others mentioned and the fact you have to “sit in stealth” to garner its benefits is not an advantage over those others that can get that instant heal rather then over a time and continually pressure an enemy.

That difference is what makes it annoying to the point almost game breaking. It’s sad when the logic becomes “if a thief ran away, you win the fight.” That’s garbage in every way possible. They could easily make it so that it was still strong but not only promoted fighting, helped you WHILE fighting, such as the example I gave.

Again I do not find it irritating at all. When a thief just stealthing I just go elsewhere. Your issue is not shadows rejuv. You are arguing against stealth itself. If they removed the skill shadows rejuv entirely they will still stealth. Those that sit in stealth now will still sit in stealth.

Only one skill SR allows a long term stealth and the only reason I ever used that skill was to cleanse conditions or to get out of a fight I was sure to lose or to run past a pack of people at a gate so as to get into a castle to defend it.

There are a whole pile of warriors that run away when they lose a fight and there no way I can catch them on a guardian. I have been with teams of 3 or 4 others tryng to catch one of these warriors and can not. That warrior heals all the while he is running.Using your reasoning we should remove all escape abilities so they have to stand and fight.

Many will (and have) argued Warrior mobility could be tuned down, redirecting the issue isn’t really fixing my issues. Problems in a game are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, there is a difference between stealth and stealthing and rejuvenating really fast. If you out-reset your enemy you can dwiddle them down in a very frustrating way.

FOR EXAMPLE:
Say thief and X fights. Thief and something else is at 40% but the thief can hide and regenerate to 100% in the time that person can just heal and end up at about 70% health and the fight starts again at 70% versus 100%, what do you think is going to happen? And the problem doesn’t end there. Stealth makes it hard to break that pattern because unless the thief is really bad, it’s hard to continue pressuring them.

(bad meaning you just SR in the middle of the fight and get cleaved because you didn’t take any additional measures).

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

Thank you for posting this as now i can end this argument.

40% of 12,000 hp is 4800 hps. For a thief to fully rejuvenate to 100% health by utilizing shadow rejuvenation is like 20 seconds.

That’s 20 seconds of uninterrupted stealth….

1. HoT removes 20 secs of stealth.
2. Most classes who solo roam can fully heal in 20 secs
3. Most thieves are running more than 12k hps so it’s longer…

You don’t have a heal either, I take it? SR replaced your healing capabilities entirely and is your only source of healing or something?

Do the math with both players having a heal and tell me how it goes.

Sure i’ll break down the thief healing mmkay?

Withdraw is 4.3k heal every 15secs
HiS is 5.2k heal with 520 over 4 secs every 30 secs
SR will net you 300 every second in stealth.

We’ll use the zerker amulet HP pool of 14,225 hps.

At 40% health the thief will have 5,690 HPs left. If you use Withdraw (most widely used heal) that will give you 10,067 HPs.

It will then take you 13-14 seconds to get to 100% health.

Using HiS is faster to full health being that it’ll take ya 9 seconds, but you can’t use it for 30 seconds.

So you’re telling me that’s better healing than a celestial ele, engi, or a shout bow warrior who’s healing 400 every second on top of 4100 in shouts every 20 seconds? How about a regen ranger? Definitely more healing than a medi guard tho right? Yeah no.

Never mind the fact that to obtain this “O so OP healing of dewmz” you can’t leave stealth or it stops.

Verilan.2963:

^^But it was a theoretical approach to a realistic scenario. If you, for whatever reason, like the design and implementation of shadows rejuvenation, thats fine, you’re of course entitled to your opinion, but the point of Sikari’s example was to exemplify how sitting in stealth makes a thief (using either Hide in Shadows or Withdraw as heal – lets not go full strawman with venom or signet heal) regenerate his health much faster than any other class, only somewhat rivaled by a ranger or warrior who has specced completely into regen (meaning dolyak runes, mango pie food, healing signet, banner regen, all that sort of stuff).

I may have worded it a bit too zealously (I do despise the trait and the playstyle it enforces) in my starting post, but my point still stands that the trait contributes grossly to the potential (and by extent, realized) health regeneration of shadow arts thieves, to the point where it makes them so sustain-y, that it becomes a game of hide and seek, where you have to repeatedly outdps them faster than they can regain stealth, which in a realistic scenario (in wvw of course, SA is all but unused and unviable in conquest for obvious reasons) is borderline impossible – unless assuming the SA thief kittens up.

Again, I respect your entitlement to opinions, but I cannot help but think that people would defend the trait simply because they used it, rather than acknowledging the glaring issues in its design and implementation.

Oh, one last thing,

babazhook.6805:

You are arguing against STEALTH . 4 seconds in stealth does NOT add a lot of health. the base is around 1200 health. That health can be taken down with a single hammer blow. Your thief usually has a lot less health then that warrior with that hammer and has a lot less healing than does that guardian.

Agreed, sort of, 1200 hp in itselt is nothing to sneeze at, but think about it, how much time do you actually spend in stealth in a fight? And how frequently? It really adds up.

You continually argue your point with Tunnel vision.

Shadows Rejuv is a GM trait that allows for more healing. If its purpose is to allow more healing they why on Earth is that a problem? If a Thief specs for this they should heal more just as a Guardian that specs for Meditations will heal for more then one that does not.

Now let us look at the Guardian and compare it to thief.

Every time my Guardian dodges I get an 1100 point heal. That dodge takes a fraction of a second and I can follow up immediately with an attack UNLIKE hiding in stealth and doing nothing to get that same heal after 4 seconds.

That is not all. Every time my Guardian uses smite condition I not only inflict damage on my enemy but get a 2200 point heal. This can be done every 16 seconds. Every third swing of my mace my guardian gets a 500 point heal. this while doing damage. In a given period of time my guardian will have other meditations that can be used each giving 2200 more health. All of that ADDS up and is an addition to my regular heals.

A thief using Shadows REJUV while sitting in stealth can not come close to this level of healing and all that while does no damage.

My warrior can heal 1800 points of health on every shout. For great justice is used religiously every 20 seconds for that 1800 point heal and all the while he does not stop attacking for that heal even as the thief sits in stealth. My warrior has other shouts to use as well all of which enhance my combat abilities or have an added effect besides a heal.

Every time I attune to water I get a 2700 health point heal on my Elementalist. Every dodge after that while attuned to water I heal. I can attune to water every 10 seconds or just stay parked there for all of those extra heals even as I am doing damage.

WHY is there an issue with a thief being able to heal if they decide to trait for more healing when every other class can do the same to far greater effect?

Love all these SA thieves defending this incredibly broken trait. It’s been known to be an OP trait for years now (always banned on duels), it hasn’t been complained about in the sPvP sphere as much as it couldn’t be reached by other conquest meta builds, and turtling with stelath is not an effective strat on that mode.
Let them live their own illusion of joy, Verilan. As if stealth alone wasn’t the strongest de-target, defensive and reposition tool in the game on itself already. It will get nerfed or changed entirely eventually.

Some are even comparing the healing potential to guardians and eles, depicting themselves as not very clever (to say the least), not even naming they are completely different professions altogether, the obvious.

My suggestion: your next X succesful attacks after getting out of stealth heal you for X amounts. This buff lasts X seconds.
Now you have to attack and succeed at it in oder to gain that sustain. This promotes getting into stealth, but not camping it and cheese ‘turtling’ the fight when getting totally outplayed, so you’re forced to actually attack, but that risk is rewarded by heals if you succeed. If you wait too long, you lose the buff, if your attacks fail (get blocked, blinded, evaded, etc.), you don’t get healed, so it has counterplay as well.

Khenzy.9348:

Love all these SA thieves defending this incredibly broken trait. It’s been known to be an OP trait for years now (always banned on duels), it hasn’t been complained about in the sPvP sphere as much as it couldn’t be reached by other conquest meta builds, and turtling with stelath is not an effective strat on that mode.
Let them live their own illusion of joy, Verilan. As if stealth alone wasn’t the strongest de-target, defensive and reposition tool in the game on itself already. It will get nerfed or changed entirely eventually.

Some are even comparing the healing potential to guardians and eles, depicting themselves as not very clever (to say the least), not even naming they are completely different professions altogether, the obvious.

My suggestion: your next X succesful attacks after getting out of stealth heal you for X amounts. This buff lasts X seconds.
Now you have to attack and succeed at it in oder to gain that sustain. This promotes getting into stealth, but not camping it and cheese ‘turtling’ the fight when getting totally outplayed, so you’re forced to actually attack, but that risk is rewarded by heals if you succeed. If you wait too long, you lose the buff, if your attacks fail (get blocked, blinded, evaded, etc.), you don’t get healed, so it has counterplay as well.

First most thieves do not use Shadows rejuventaion in PvP. How can it be complained about?

Who the frack cares that different professions have a trait as a heal? That is a BOGUS argument. Is it your contention that a thief class, one that has no blocks or protections or skills that make one invulnerable to all damge are somehow not warranted additional heals from traits.?

Why not? What exactly is your beef? Is it the HEAL or is it that stealth?

Yes they are different professions and the DIFFERENCE is that extra heal comes to the thief as they hide UNABLE to do damage.

You then suggest to make it ’fair" the thief in question has to come out and trade blows.

Thieves that come out and trade blows do not have the hit points or armor to live very long. They are not designed to “trade blows”. If they hit for 2k so as to get a 2k heal and are hit for 4k they are going to be dead pretty quick. As you yourself said they are different professions.

I keep hearing duels and 1v1 in a team balance game don’t turn thief into necro. If it’s so strong 1vsX why aren’t zerg made of thieves trolling the map? There is a difference between noobs(found in those overrated montages) and decent players between broken and annoying(opinion). You do not compare professions between each other. Are you that hungry for loot/stomp??

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

BFMV.3198:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

With the removal of infusion thief’s roaming got hit hard

T raw.4658:

BFMV.3198:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

With the removal of infusion thief’s roaming got hit hard

You lost 2 Init on stealth entrance and gained 1 init every 3 seconds in stealth without additional investment needed. Technically that has moments of benefit and moments of slight reduction. It’s not all a loss, right?

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

BFMV.3198:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

With the removal of infusion thief’s roaming got hit hard

You lost 2 Init on stealth entrance and gained 1 init every 3 seconds in stealth without additional investment needed. Technically that has moments of benefit and moments of slight reduction. It’s not all a loss, right?

It kind of is without Cloaked in the Shadows to guarantee a full heal at least at melee range,no damage>damage reduction. They actually aimed at both p/d and d/p not sure if d/d will adapt as fast as others, might on stealth also got removed they enforced the bunker in SA, other lines will provide us with more damage/utility. It looks good on paper we’ll test it out it does feel like they gave us more option to spec for utility instead of just pure damage which is good.

Don’t worry about PS+Executioner+SoH being too much a defensive power creep also happened. I do feel like casuals and new players might QQ more and level difference between players will widen.

BFMV.3198:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

Precisely. the heal is fine. It is not OP in any way shape or form. I myself (up to this point) have preferred not to use it on my own builds because I have always leaned towards the acro dodge type thief so as to continue to maintain pressure on an enemy.

There a trade off there and a CHOICE in that using the more active style which DOES exist means one pays for their mistakes. I see nothing wrong with the thief that wants to go the REJUV route and be more calculating.

What those are argue against it are angry about is that the Shadows rejuv thief is not an instant kill. It worth pointing out that the thief that now takes Shadow rejuv does in fact lose 300 in the way of toughness AND healing power. That means to get similar healing to before the changes they have to make up for that somehow and we are not even aware yet how much baseline healing or toughness is to be added before we have to rely on gear.

ronpierce.2760:

T raw.4658:

BFMV.3198:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is fine and actually, how they have done it in heart of Thorns is actually what thief needs. So stop all the whining. Look at warriors healing signet, heals every second !! ALL the time. We only get it in stealth, and even less healing. Also, it provides people who like the shadow type of thief as opposed to dodging and acro thief style a way to be successful in WvW, especially roaming. Every class is good at something and I enjoy World vs World roaming a ton.

With the removal of infusion thief’s roaming got hit hard

You lost 2 Init on stealth entrance and gained 1 init every 3 seconds in stealth without additional investment needed. Technically that has moments of benefit and moments of slight reduction. It’s not all a loss, right?

Yeah that extra init comes at the 3rd second. So instead of CnD costing 4 it’ll be 5 only if you stay in stealth for 3.1 seconds.

D/P will have to chain multiple HS to benefit from the extra init and to even make up for it will have to chain 3 HS. The problem remains though is that you’ll always be behind the ball on init management

Verilan.2963:

Shadows Rejuvenation is immensely strong.
Granted, it is a grandmaster trait, but what bothers me the most about it, is not per se the numbers, but the design. Perhaps with the exception of the 1 condi/3 sec cleanse in stealth, this is borderline the only trait that actively encourages sitting in stealth for ages. And it rewards doing that, highly so.

While the current, and similar HoT numbers, of approx. 300-330 hp/s in stealth, is ridiculously high (on par with what most healing skills can provide in consistent usage), I feel that it is of a design that does not belong to thief. If we look at every weaponset, and the general direction of traits and traitlines of thief, they all encourage active/reactive play.
Enemy attacks you? Dodge that kitten! Or blind it!
Not soak it up, stealth up, and go hide in a corner until you’re at full health again.

Not to mention, Shadows Rejuvenation outperforms the other choices by a very large margin, both in the past, present, and in the HoT outline. The sheer performance of the trait arguably leads to it carrying bad/lesser skilled/experienced players in fights that they’d otherwise lose, purely due to the atrocious game of attrition it allows.
A potent tactic, both for X/D builds, but perhaps moreso for D/P, is that if you’re losing, simply keep a distance, and keep stealthing. The sheer level of sustain it brings, and gameplay it promotes, is just so… not thief-y.

I dont consider myself a thief hater, nor a shadow arts hater (in general), but that single, build-defining trait, I just wish it would get removed, and replaced with something else that fit the theme of stealth, as well as active gameplay.
If I were to come up with a replacement, I’d like to see a trait meant for offensive use.
How about something that gave X amount of initiative when gaining Revealed (IE, breaking stealth through damage)?

Finally, shadow arts could be a traitline dedicated to repositioning, use of stealth for offensive purposes, and light sustain (through the Shadow Protector and Shadows Embrace traits).

Taking away Cloaked in Shadow and Shadow’s Rejuv is just way too cruel for D/D thieves.

those 2 are the core survival trait for D/D.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Taking away Cloaked in Shadow and Shadow’s Rejuv is just way too cruel for D/D thieves.

those 2 are the core survival trait for D/D.

I know, and I really dont think cloaked in shadow should be a gm, maybe a masters, but that is a whole other discussion; this thread is about shadows rejuv. I dont want to see D/D wither away completely, it is like, the most iconic thief weaponset, but thats a discussion for another thread

Change SR for:

Gains health every time you enter stealth:
497 + Healing Power.

Won’t affect most players but it will nerf heal on Shadow Refuge.
Then again, you can pick Regen on Stealth for 10 seconds as well. If you need more long term heal.

I will exchange SR to Heavy Armor, Passive Heal and Healing Utility Skills any day.

ronpierce.2760:

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

It’s pretty well countered by matchmaking, which prevents reasonably skilled players from murdering keyboard turners all day.

Current Shadow Arts thieves don’t pose enough of a threat to down any of the core celetanks, and are much weaker in +1 situations than even a S/D thief. That may be completely different once people have access to 3 full trait lines, but as it stands the build isn’t run not because it’s cheese, but because it’s a noob stomper build that doesn’t pull its weight against serious competition.

Ensign.2189:

ronpierce.2760:

This happens in WvW all the time, in fact it’s common for thief to kill multiple enemies at once with relative ease. The only thing preventing this from happening in spvp is stealth preventing node capping and the timer, both of which become less of an issue in SH where these types of builds will likely shine much more.

It’s pretty well countered by matchmaking, which prevents reasonably skilled players from murdering keyboard turners all day.

Current Shadow Arts thieves don’t pose enough of a threat to down any of the core celetanks, and are much weaker in +1 situations than even a S/D thief. That may be completely different once people have access to 3 full trait lines, but as it stands the build isn’t run not because it’s cheese, but because it’s a noob stomper build that doesn’t pull its weight against serious competition.

That’s part of the problem, actually. 1/0/1/0/1 has some serious roots to be f’ing scaring come HoT. Of course, its all likely to change, but thats why they want concerns expressed now.

Eh, I’m more concerned about the Resilience of Shadows part of the equation. I don’t think ~10-20% shaving on Shadow Rejuvenation (which is, at most, what is warranted) is going to make much of a difference, but piling Resilience on top of that does mitigate the little counterplay stealth has pretty severely.

I mean, it’s clearly the 3rd best line for PvP with these changes, and there’s a power bump, but everything gets a power bump. I’m not familiar enough with what every other class is getting to really comment on relative power changes.

I do know that balancing around the experiences of keyboard turners that can’t stop themselves from chasing a Shadow Arts D/P thief isn’t exactly a good idea, and that the one-shot builds are probably more toxic for that demographic anyway.

I’d rather see better healing options for thief made first before any nerf is brought to SR. There are 2 with nice concepts but both of them don’t keep up in a pvp environment, and with the removal of stats in traits (healing power in this instance) SR got a nerf still.

Even with the few cool changes thief might be getting, I still think we’re behind in what the others’ got like guardian having their own panic strike and an all in 1 medi trait, or engineer having a quadra blast finisher and having a multitude of traits made baseline, or necromancer having an even stronger DS power build. Then again this is all a preview and I’m sure they will tweak things a bit, I mean they kept last refuge :/