Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge, Singet of Shadows
Not really, we should just have more access to boons, especially swiftness.
Thieves lack the boons most other classes enjoy.
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
It depends though. Shadow Steps to me is unnecessary since I use S/P. I find Devourer Venom is very good too. If they fix the stacking bug of Devourer Venom, it is a very strong utility.
D/D – S/P Sylvary Thief
Blackgate
Thing is, I don’t think other utilities are weaker than those three skills.
What’s going on, instead, is that the Thief has some very clear holes in its skill set. It doesn’t have a good source of swiftness; it needs a good escape if it’s not going to be a sketchy all-in character; and like everyone else you need a stun breaker. Unfortunately, your options to fill those holes are fairly limited, and they consume all of the space on your bar for utility. So it isn’t like Caltrops or Devourer Venom are bad skills, it’s simply a problem that taking one of those means you’re giving up the ability to move fast, the ability to escape, or the ability to break a stun – all of which are a big deal.
As silly as it might sound, changing Signet of Shadows to “Passive: 25% increased movement speed; Active: breaks stun and grants 3 seconds of stealth” would open up bars immensely. Sure, you’d still often run Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step because they are good skills, but it wouldn’t be nearly as fatal to slot in something different.
Thing is, I don’t think other utilities are weaker than those three skills.
What’s going on, instead, is that the Thief has some very clear holes in its skill set. It doesn’t have a good source of swiftness; it needs a good escape if it’s not going to be a sketchy all-in character; and like everyone else you need a stun breaker. Unfortunately, your options to fill those holes are fairly limited, and they consume all of the space on your bar for utility. So it isn’t like Caltrops or Devourer Venom are bad skills, it’s simply a problem that taking one of those means you’re giving up the ability to move fast, the ability to escape, or the ability to break a stun – all of which are a big deal.
As silly as it might sound, changing Signet of Shadows to “Passive: 25% increased movement speed; Active: breaks stun and grants 3 seconds of stealth” would open up bars immensely. Sure, you’d still often run Shadow Refuge and Shadow Step because they are good skills, but it wouldn’t be nearly as fatal to slot in something different.
I wouldn’t mind breaks stun and the movement speed then I MIGHT not run SoS. As it is now I run SR, SS, and SoS. I swap to cals when I know I am in a fight but lately I havent been running SoS as much. Since caltrops cripple and I run SB also I can usually get away.
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
Yep.
Shadow Signet, Shadowstep and Refuge imo aren’t utilities at all, they are actually core abilities. At least that’s how I look at them. The other utilities, they’re the real ones. If I’m sieging for example, I might swap out SoS for scorp wire for it’s situational utility. If I’m approaching a fight I might briefly swap out SoS for blinding powder. If I’m about to solo a camp I’ll trade shadowstep for caltrops, etc etc.
But then I’ll swap straight back again.
So you’re right I think, to say 90% of thieves run these. The exceptions are perhaps the alternate builds that are themselves structured around other abilities:
- venoms + ambush
- assassin’s signet + haste
- spot reserved for when traps become useful
However insta gib and venom share are extreme niche builds that are overshadowed by a more balanced setup containing the above tri-factor utilities.
As much as I love those three utilities, the lack of diversity is boring.
Shadow Refuge in particular is just too good of a spell to pass up. In PvP and WvW, every thief and their mother runs it because you’d be needlessly gimping yourself if you weren’t. I personally hate the skill but I’m forced to use it because it’s simply the best “Oh %$&#” button we have right now. It also allows bad thieves to get away with doing really stupid things—like running into a disadvantaged fight—and getting away scott-free. Shadow Refuge removes any sort of punishment for bad play and that’s just wrong.
Wow all this hype for Signet of Shadows?
I used to swear by it’s importance Beta-November. I eventually looked at Lowell’s build I believe saw no SoS went “wtf” tried it anyways, and became unhooked. I highly doubt SoS will see any real play on my bar again unless it were buffed or traits involving it were.
SoS is just addicting it’s nothing special at all, in the slightest.
Sure if you’re feeling it’s really slow and other gap closers just are not fitting how you play sure. But inf Signet, in battle? Passively giving you ini? More important to me. Starting my PW/CnD from behind cover to warp the stun into their face with inf signet? I prefer. Being able to place a Shadow return from inf strike, and still warp to them from another means?
SoS? Doubt I’ll ever take it again unless some kind of P/P build or w/e.
Shadowstep is straight out amazing, our other stunbreaks should get on it’s level that or they could make SoA a stunbreak, I’d drop Shadowstep for that in a couple of builds no doubt.
Like Ensign said they fills gaps, but a lot of it’s convenience too.
SoS mean’s you don’t have to think as heavily about gap closing or moving, but now I don’t see a purpose for it because I warp so much with a S/ that the only time I’m really moving is between cover when I think about it. So 25% movement speed does little for me, other than increase the range I travel before I juke again but it’s just not significant.
Shadowstep and SR are some top tier skills though SR is pretty easy to switch out.
(edited by ensoriki.5789)
However as the game grows, more players are learning to counter Refuge so that often it’s more of a liability. This means its use as an “oh kitten” button is severely limited. If you try to put it down to escape, you get pulled out. If you ensure you are far enough away to use it safely – then you’ve already escaped without needing it.
Refuge is slowly becoming a tool for initiation or safe travel around the map rather than clutch escapes. However it’s the sheer broadness of it’s utility that keeps it on our skillbars.
Wow all this hype for Signet of Shadows?
I used to swear by it’s importance Beta-November. I eventually looked at Lowell’s build I believe saw no SoS went “wtf” tried it anyways, and became unhooked. I highly doubt SoS will see any real play on my bar again unless it were buffed or traits involving it were.Signet of agility is a better skill.
I mean if you had to pull out skills out of your bar to fit in Haste, or Signet of Agility, or whatever, what’s going first? Probably SoS because it’s generally the least useful and is just addicting. It’s not like we’re a “slow” profession even without it.
No context at all!! Nobody is hyped about Signet of Shadows (hyperbole) we are talking about sPvP and WvW! SoS is good for movement nobody is saying OMGBBQ you have to take it. The guy above me said SR is more important than SoS.
Congrats you read Lowell’s guide and don’t run SoS had to read a guide to test a utility? Ok I guess.
I hate when people jump in a thread like "hey I am smarter than you I been not using SoS!!! " <<— Thats basically what you said sounds silly doesn’t it
The thread is about the most popular utilities and those are the most popular utilities.
Lowells venom Share build in WvW you know how often you see thieves NOT running venoms its pretty often. See how things change through personal testing!
I wonder why the Superior Sigil of Rage is not one of the most expensive sigils anymore on the TP? Testing
Alot of early guides recommended that crappy sigil.
/thread
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
(edited by oZii.2864)
I thought there was enough context?
We aren’t slow, so the increased movement speed while addicting is easy to get by without out it so I take other skills that serve me better.
What you mean no hype it’s being labelled as core, but I’m pretty sure in all of your builds if you want to put in haste, or any other skill SoS will likely be 1 of the first skills you swap it for though I understand why you’d take it, it is no longer useful in how I play.
What more do you need? Sounds like you’re feeling unnecessarily threatened and taking offense where you need not to.
SoS fills your speed hole and works as an emergency blind however if you aren’t feeling a necessity for that speed, you don’t take it, it’s rather simple not much ‘context’ is needed for it.
Running my swords, I rather take haste, because Im not naturally punching people down in 3 hits. Shadowstep is multi-purpose and fits a variety of needs from travel, offense, defense and synergizes well with my infiltrator’s strike for jukes among more specific needs. Shadow Refuge gives a stealth needs but isn’t required, to be frank the bottom line is distance gets traversed enough without SoS, so I don’t need it and don’t find it mandatory.
Like other’s I found it a staple until I bothered a better look without it, month’s ago, though you felt a need to attack it sarcastically.
Dee’s calling the three our best utilities but I don’t think SoS is. I find it it’s a compliment for a ‘need for speed’ but very clearly you’ll get various uses from other skills, and inf signet and Signet of Agility are just as easy to fit in a build as I see it.
Is that enough context 4 u baby bwoi? Probably not since the bug in your butt is rather obvious at this point.
SoS is not important for sPvP, where you’re spending your time fighting on a control point. It is also not important for boss fights in PvE, which are also usually stationary (and you’ll swap it out for that fight as needed).
It is essential for roaming in WvW, where fights can and do move quite a bit over their duration, and engage/disengage is a huge part of combat. If you can’t run someone down in WvW, you can’t secure kills. If you can’t run someone down in sPvP, who cares, as long as they left the control point.
I agree that Shadow Refuge has its limitations and that people are getting better at countering it; at the same time, Blinding Powder just can’t pull the same kind of weight that it can, and it’s not like the Thief has a wide variety of non-stealth escape utilities (you have Shadow Step and…uh, yeah).
sPvP is its own bizarre minigame that has a totally different set of balance concerns from the rest of the game. You can’t extrapolate much from it to anywhere else, so I don’t pay it a lot of heed when thinking about game balance.
I wonder why the Superior Sigil of Rage is not one of the most expensive sigils anymore on the TP?
It’s a fairly common sigil to find in exotic weapons, up there with sigils of intelligence and air in frequency. It’s also a sigil that excels at burst, while most players are more focused on long run DPS.
I mean, if you are going entirely by price then you’d conclude that the Sigil of Strength is one of the strongest in the game, and not a niche sigil for a handful of Engineers and Elementalists.
I’ve become addicted the SR and blinding powder. In group setting a quick get of jail free for any nearby member is just to much to pass up. And even better it stealths me. I’ve started tinkering with Roll. Running PP I can’t burn int super fast in unload spam. And we’ll once you get good at spinning the camera roll is a decent gap closer, it is also fun in the times you aren’t paying attention and fly off a cliff to your death.
Melanessa-Necromancer Cymaniel-Scrapper
Minikata-Guardian Shadyne-Elementalist -FA-
I have a question about shadow refuge. If someone counter your shadow refuge, the stealth will be cancelled? Its so often thesedays when i pop shadow regufe, people will throw me out of it (pushed by a guardian or pulled by mesmer) then my stealth is just gone even if its already stack to 4-6 seconds. Then the “revealed” icon appear on my screen
… But overall the 3 abilities mentioned above are ALWAYS useful.
You can do without SoS when using Fleet of Shadow. SoS is the standin for FoS when you’d want Descent of Shadows. Infiltrator signet has a shadowstep / stunbreaker that doesn’t require ground targetting.
(edited by frans.8092)
Besides dungeons/fractals I never run shadow refuge
And I haven’t used SoS for months now ..
I prefer infiltrator’s signet much more than SoS
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
in wvw i use all these but in spvp i only use refuge out of this list.
I agree with this post, for d/d those 3 skills are basicly a must. Yes you could change the signet for something else, but since thieves lack in swiftness (which I think it’s stupid since it’s supposed to be the most mobile class) signet of shadows turns out useful.
Another thing I would like to state is 2 dagger/dagger skills that I think it should be reworked.
Death Blossom – I find this skill completly useless on burst builds, I never use it. For conditions builds it works, but if you run a burst build which almost every thief runs, it turns out in the most useless skill ever.
Dancing dagger – Sometimes yes it comes handy, for crippling many targets. But when you get in a 1v1 I just feel that it lacks on damage and 4initiative for an easily removed cripple seems a huge price.
I wonder why the Superior Sigil of Rage is not one of the most expensive sigils anymore on the TP?
It’s a fairly common sigil to find in exotic weapons, up there with sigils of intelligence and air in frequency. It’s also a sigil that excels at burst, while most players are more focused on long run DPS.
I mean, if you are going entirely by price then you’d conclude that the Sigil of Strength is one of the strongest in the game, and not a niche sigil for a handful of Engineers and Elementalists.
No not really people are just smarter now thats all. Sigil of strength is good as long as you have a decent amount of boon duration also there is a good warrior build that hit reddit a while ago about 2 runes hoelbrak, 2 runes Fire, 2 runes strength each set +20% might duration. That is why that sigil is expensive.
demamd
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}
IMHO Blinding Powder with SA IV is a great condition remover. I prefer it to Shadowstep.
Took a while but I wouldn’t event consider slotting SOS now even when running across empty map using a bow, shadowstep and swiftness from my dodge’s gets me there pretty quick. Shadowstep is certainly a life saver for me and I use it as an offensive and defensive ability with it and number 2 from sword I can make some serious swift ground when ambushing someone and get out if the cull has surprised a zerg around me. refuge I think is a WvW team choice it can be countered however i revive many many allies with this as well as using it for other reasons. I run the Agility signet for precision, refilling endurance (for more dodge/swiftness/might) and removing a condition. Works nicely. Might throw in Haste the odd time, but its pretty constant in WvW – so yeah agree I wouldn’t run without Refuge and Shadowstep – RFI just seems clunky in comparison.
I would love to get rid of SoS but it’s out best stomping ability. The run speed is gravy. Nothing else lets you blind a guardian or someone else on their way to save the person you are stomping.
I think the problem is related to the relative strength and survivability of other metabuilds compared to the ones that benefit from stealth. That makes the default option exploiting anything that gives and uses stealth. Hence the stacking of all the stealth traits and stealth attacks.
Maybe if conditions or venoms weren’t so reliant on traiting or easily ignored, stealth wouldn’t be such an issue.
What on earth do venoms have to do with survivability?
What on earth do venoms have to do with survivability?
Leeching venom builds.
What on earth do venoms have to do with survivability?
Leeching venom builds.
It would drop your survivability.
https://twitter.com/TalathionEQ2
I only agree with Shadow Refuge being an addicting utility, the other two are not needed at all. Put 15 trait points into acrobatics, and you have reliable swiftness on dodge. The trait Thrill of the Crime will also give you 10 seconds of swiftness, and can be activated without having a target. Next to that you have weapon skills like Infiltrator’s Arrow or Shadow Shot, that can easily get you to a target. I’d pick Roll for Initiative over Shadowstep any day, when it comes to a stun breaker. 6 initiative vs. a shadowstep that you already have access to from other skills? Not really a competition..
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
I only agree with Shadow Refuge being an addicting utility, the other two are not needed at all. Put 15 trait points into acrobatics, and you have reliable swiftness on dodge. The trait Thrill of the Crime will also give you 10 seconds of swiftness, and can be activated without having a target. Next to that you have weapon skills like Infiltrator’s Arrow or Shadow Shot, that can easily get you to a target. I’d pick Roll for Initiative over Shadowstep any day, when it comes to a stun breaker. 6 initiative vs. a shadowstep that you already have access to from other skills? Not really a competition..
2 stun breaks and a condition removal within 20 seconds.. usable with any weapon set. Also can get on top of stuff without short-bow requirement. Instant 1200 range movement to catch someone or get away. It’s got to be our best utility for PvP at least..
2 stun breaks and a condition removal within 20 seconds.. usable with any weapon set. Also can get on top of stuff without short-bow requirement. Instant 1200 range movement to catch someone or get away. It’s got to be our best utility for PvP at least..
How often do you really need two stun breakers in a row (let alone one)? Shadow Return on the sword also breaks stun and removes one condition. Roll for Initiative also removes cripple, chilled, and immobilize, while giving you 6 initiative on top of the stun removal. You already have Shadow Refuge to get away, and Steal (which can be traited to have 1200 range) plus weapon skills for chasing. I don’t see how Shadowstep is needed, at all.
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
I tend to use all of those, depending on my situation in WvW. Only put SoS on my bar if i need to get to a camp/or area fast (or if im siege attacking us with just going out in stealth and attacking)
Shadows refugee has found a perma spot on my bar when i’m playing my P/D roamer. Only to get past large zergs that stand between me my destination (be it a camp, or anything else that needs to be destroyed or flipped).
And i dont really use Shadowstep, cause with my two venoms i use (spiders+devourer) as my P/D are enough to keep me alive. And if they do hit me with a stun, and i cannot land my CnD than i die. But only cause i slipped up as a P/D. You get up, and you learn not to make that mistake again.
But that’s just me, my server developed a guerrilla like mentality and most of us tend to just hit hard and know the stun skill animations. (im not advocating L2P, just thats for me and others on my server)
I would love to get rid of SoS but it’s out best stomping ability. The run speed is gravy. Nothing else lets you blind a guardian or someone else on their way to save the person you are stomping.
“Blind on stealth” trait works for that. Since it’s almost always better to stealth before stomping, you’ll stealth him automatically.
GL – “The Afternoon’s Watch” [OATH]
2 stun breaks and a condition removal within 20 seconds.. usable with any weapon set. Also can get on top of stuff without short-bow requirement. Instant 1200 range movement to catch someone or get away. It’s got to be our best utility for PvP at least..
How often do you really need two stun breakers in a row (let alone one)? Shadow Return on the sword also breaks stun and removes one condition. Roll for Initiative also removes cripple, chilled, and immobilize, while giving you 6 initiative on top of the stun removal. You already have Shadow Refuge to get away, and Steal (which can be traited to have 1200 range) plus weapon skills for chasing. I don’t see how Shadowstep is needed, at all.
The biggest advantage/disadvantage to sword is you are bound to a point and the only way to change it is to return to it or wait 15 secs. With shadowstep, you can easily change that bounded point. In addition, it lets you 1-stomp everything w/o blinds.
2 stun breaks and a condition removal within 20 seconds.. usable with any weapon set. Also can get on top of stuff without short-bow requirement. Instant 1200 range movement to catch someone or get away. It’s got to be our best utility for PvP at least..
How often do you really need two stun breakers in a row (let alone one)? Shadow Return on the sword also breaks stun and removes one condition. Roll for Initiative also removes cripple, chilled, and immobilize, while giving you 6 initiative on top of the stun removal. You already have Shadow Refuge to get away, and Steal (which can be traited to have 1200 range) plus weapon skills for chasing. I don’t see how Shadowstep is needed, at all.
RFI is
1) Less frequent (60 cd vs 50).
2) Creates far less maximum distance from an enemy than Shadowstep.
3) Specifically removes 3 conditions but does nothing for you if under Confusion, burning, poison, bleeding, which will wreck your face if not removed in dire situations.
4) Does not combo with my sword nearly as nice. I can get 3 enemies coming my way, hit shadow return off sword, Shadowstep into the distance, plant another Shadow return from shadow strike, continue moving. Shadow return from shadowstep back to my original location, and if needed shadow return again from inf strike where I had Shadowstepped too. My ability to go “see ya” goes out even further if I get stealth up, or switch to shortbow. With RfI, at best I get an extra CnD/IA or Black powder… Tbh just not feeling it. There’s also when people try to get away from me, and I shadowstep to them, and hit backstab/flanking strike/Heartseeker when they assumed they were safe. No sir.
5) When not running shortbow. Been playing my free’s without it for quite a bit now, and that means I have no ground targetted shadowstep, this means I’d have to walk up certain terrain if I didn’t have Shadowstep on my bar. Rfi wouldn’t solve that. Same for WvW say at shoot what’s it called Arah’s Hope? (left supply camp) When you want to warp up that ledge to Gtfo. Or on the right camp when you go down the slope and warp up the mountain towards the tower by the wurms.
6) When Sword Shadowreturn does not break. This is generally true for Engineer launches, and stomps. There are also times when I shadow return and cannot move despite no conditions on me, I assume this is me actually being stuck in a form of stun and the animation just not showing. Shadowstep comes into play here to get me out. Nothing worse than eating some Engi’s knockback, shadow returning…still on the floor and a Thief comes in with his dagger combo…Shadowstep brah.
Or when they’re about to stomp my bro and steals on CD. So I shadowstep right to em, hit haste, cnd, Tactical strike (or Pw/headshot) that’s interrupted, start rezzing in their face, No problem or drop the Shadow refuge.
Though Generally I have 2+ Stunbreakers on my utility slots regardless, so if I took Rfi it’s with Shadowstep in order to facilitate some need that RFI will fulfill.
tl;dr; Weapon skills can’t do it all and Shadowstep synergizes very well with D/ and S/ probably P/ too I’d assume but I rarely run it seriously.
(edited by ensoriki.5789)
RFI is
1) Less frequent (60 cd vs 50).
2) Creates far less maximum distance from an enemy than Shadowstep.
3) Specifically removes 3 conditions but does nothing for you if under Confusion, burning, poison, bleeding, which will wreck your face if not removed in dire situations.
4) Does not combo with my sword nearly as nice. I can get 3 enemies coming my way, hit shadow return off sword, Shadowstep into the distance, plant another Shadow return from shadow strike, continue moving. Shadow return from shadowstep back to my original location, and if needed shadow return again from inf strike where I had Shadowstepped too. My ability to go “see ya” goes out even further if I get stealth up, or switch to shortbow. With RfI, at best I get an extra CnD/IA or Black powder… Tbh just not feeling it. There’s also when people try to get away from me, and I shadowstep to them, and hit backstab/flanking strike/Heartseeker when they assumed they were safe. No sir.
5) When not running shortbow. Been playing my free’s without it for quite a bit now, and that means I have no ground targetted shadowstep, this means I’d have to walk up certain terrain if I didn’t have Shadowstep on my bar. Rfi wouldn’t solve that. Same for WvW say at shoot what’s it called Arah’s Hope? (left supply camp) When you want to warp up that ledge to Gtfo. Or on the right camp when you go down the slope and warp up the mountain towards the tower by the wurms.
6) When Sword Shadowreturn does not break. This is generally true for Engineer launches, and stomps. There are also times when I shadow return and cannot move despite no conditions on me, I assume this is me actually being stuck in a form of stun and the animation just not showing. Shadowstep comes into play here to get me out. Nothing worse than eating some Engi’s knockback, shadow returning…still on the floor and a Thief comes in with his dagger combo…Shadowstep brah.Or when they’re about to stomp my bro and steals on CD. So I shadowstep right to em, hit haste, cnd, Tactical strike (or Pw/headshot) that’s interrupted, start rezzing in their face, No problem or drop the Shadow refuge.
Though Generally I have 2+ Stunbreakers on my utility slots regardless, so if I took Rfi it’s with Shadowstep in order to facilitate some need that RFI will fulfill.tl;dr; Weapon skills can’t do it all and Shadowstep synergizes very well with D/ and S/ probably P/ too I’d assume but I rarely run it seriously.
It’s not about comparing one skill to another, but comparing everything you can do, and the ask yourself if your chosen utility offers anything you don’t have. The Thief already has plenty of ways to get in and out of fights, as movement is what the profession is centered around. And if everything fails, you can just throw down your Shadow Refuge and run away. You already got plenty of condition removal in traits or just your healing skills.
I’m not saying Shadowstep is a bad skill, just that it’s not one of the best or most useful utility skills the Thief has, which is what the topic is about.
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
(edited by Kasama.8941)
You said you don’t see how it’s needed.
So I gave multiple reasons (not a straight comparison) on why it would be taken and a couple of situations on where it comes in handy. Cheer’s brah.
Maybe when that Ctf mode comes out I’ll take RFI, Can evade to hell and back with a shortbow + Quick pockets, adventurer runes and endurance sigil and SoA.
(edited by ensoriki.5789)
You said you don’t see how it’s needed.
So I gave multiple reasons (not a straight comparison) on why it would be taken
:) Cheer’s brah.
I appreciate it. You did list some reasons that I had not thought of. I just feel like the skill is a waste of a utility slot.
“The learned is happy, nature to explore. The fool is happy, that he knows no more.”
-Alexander Pope
I agree they are the best three skills for everyone except a S/P, who does not really benefit as much from Shadowstep or Refuge. I mean he does, but just not as much, so can have the freedom to take others.
I think anyone with 15 into acrobatics and a SB off-set can forgo the Signet of Shadows, or at least I have. With swiftness on dodge, you can keep the +33 movement up between Infil Arrows. It’s quite liberating.
I pair this with orrian truffle meat stew for 2 stacks of might each dodge, and with quick recovery (20 acro) and infil signet (the signet I took instead) I have enough ini to still be really fast. Only thing faster is…. a thief using sig of shadows doing the same thing, but only slightly so.
I am S/D, so i run Shadowstep, Shadow Refuge (as you say, just too good, esp with any build built around stealth openers.) and Infil signet.
With infil strike from sword 2, and Infil signet, and Steal, and Shadowstep, I an uncatchable, and if you combine them in that order (infil sig/infilstrike, steal) you can blink forward 2100 distance in zero seconds. Add shadowstep for even more distance. I also use infil sig/infilstrike on critters/npcs in WvW to run away super fast on top of all the other tricks above.
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I tried RFI at the start as it does look great on paper but I found it eventually quite limiting. With Shadowstep it is boogie nights, I certainly don’t hit hard at all but I sure do survive better than most. Started using mango something or other for might stack and 40% vigor regen – it’s quite fun. Doing the boogiestep switching and plying SB trickshots keeps the pressure on loads. I’m sure I do most of my damage with the SB. Peeps are getting wise now laying down the aoe attacks so I think it must be harder running around in stealth. Boogie steppin in and out like the hokey kokey is what its all about.
I haven’t run with SR for a few weeks now and it is one of those abilities you do really miss but I’ve gotten used to it now.
I admit that I’m in the 90% sector too.
Other people (like Kasama) just happen to be on the 10% left. Nothing wrong with that of course, but those 3 skills dominate thieves’ bars for a reason. Several reasons, actually.
Personally, SoS is in my bar mainly for roaming, changing it for another more situational utility as son as I arrive to my destination…. Scorpion wire to pull defenders from walls, Smoke screen to shield our siege from enemy siege, Caltrops to block choke-points… the usual….
I find venoms rather useless for any build not especifically traited to make them work, Traps are most of the time too situational, or redundant, or weak, or all of it at the same time.
I dunno once you role sos for awhile and you take it off you feel….sluggish and not right. SR is just addicting, lately people havent even attempted to hit me out of it and when they go in its fun to run around the edge to wait for it to go away. Shadow step is something i shouldnt have to explain. I wish sos had another active instead of blinding though. I already blind whenever I go into stealth, and if i want to blind so much, why not use smokescreen or blackpowder? we already have too many blinds >.<
2 stun breaks and a condition removal within 20 seconds.. usable with any weapon set. Also can get on top of stuff without short-bow requirement. Instant 1200 range movement to catch someone or get away. It’s got to be our best utility for PvP at least..
How often do you really need two stun breakers in a row (let alone one)? Shadow Return on the sword also breaks stun and removes one condition. Roll for Initiative also removes cripple, chilled, and immobilize, while giving you 6 initiative on top of the stun removal. You already have Shadow Refuge to get away, and Steal (which can be traited to have 1200 range) plus weapon skills for chasing. I don’t see how Shadowstep is needed, at all.
Shadowstep is nice, but in builds which have another reliable shadowstep (any sword or SB swap builds) it’s not always a better pick. I originally switched over to RFI because it benefitted from reduced tricks cooldown, but as I used it, I found that I ended up much more survivable with RFI rather than Shadowstep due to its initiative return and substantially higher utility in multitarget engagements due to its long evade.
A standard “disengage” when i had SS equipped was usually:
180, target shadowstep (I use single click ground, so I had to eyeball range), swap, infiltrator’s arrow.
This left me with shadow return, and pile of lost initiative. At times shadowstep would end up blocked by random terrain features, or just plain not work reliably. While I’ll admit that in certain situations the double stunbreak nature of the skill was helpful in combat, when I simply wanted to scrub shadow return it was a little frustrating to use.
Standard disengage with RFI:
hit RFI, dodge backward, 180, swap, infiltrator’s arrow, dodge X2 (I’m traited in acrobatics and use energy sigil on my SB)
I found that this was much more intuitive, as the backward nature of RFI let me pull the 180 after I was already out of harm’s way, and more importantly, RFI always made sure I had enough initiative to pop at least one infil. I also tend to get better use out of it in combat these days as I’ve had a lot more experience in proactively dodging stuns, and RFI makes an excellent clutch dodge to chain in to more attacks. If steal is also available, it’s not uncommon for me to be bottomed out on init, hit rfi, hit steal directly after, and be right back in the fight with a nearly full initiative bar. This, I found leaps and bounds more effective than having two stunbreaks. That full initiative bar means I can use any number of reactive strategies for what comes next.
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
I wish sos had another active instead of blinding though. I already blind whenever I go into stealth, and if i want to blind so much, why not use smokescreen or blackpowder? we already have too many blinds >.<
As previously stated sos is the best stomping utility. I always use it for this reason. Nothing like shutting down a guards aoe interrupt on a spvp cap mid stomp.
I like SoS, just being faster makes me happy:). Also, ofcourse shadowrefuge found its spot on my bar. As my third skill, I use haste. It can be usefull offensive and defensive, as it breaks stun enabling me to quickly stealth with my d/p set up. Or I just simply use haste to stomp someone really hard.
Shadow Refuge is the only skill with a guaranteed spot on my bar. I do NOT like taking it off. I feel naked without it.
Signet of Shadows goes on when going from point A to point B. I change it before combat if I can though, since I have swiftness on dodge for speed for combat. I do use it to blind when stomping if I fight with it.
I usually run blinding powder for the other utility and not shadowstep. In fact, I rarely run shadowstep. Maybe it’s because I’m a shortbow/dd thief and know how to avoid getting hit in the first place and can use infil shot to cover ground if I have to, and can use blinding powder if I get CC’d anyway.
When swapping out SoS, usually it’s caltrops. Sometimes haste if I’m going all-out. But the SoS utility can change to anything. Blinding powder only changes sometimes. I rarely ever change shadow refuge.
PS: You can NEVER have too many blinds.
Darxio – Thief Commander
Not just those 3 utilities, but deception as a whole is too dominant a build, comapared to the alternatives IMO.
As a D/D backstab thief I use blinding powder/shadowstep/signet of shadows. I dont use shadow refugee anymore … While it has its uses in group play, I see none in solo roaming. Blinding powder will get you in, will get you out + blind effect and its overall a nice oh kitten im out of initiative button w/o the huge house with sign “hit me”. Hiden killer allso doesnt work with stealth stacking. Allso when fighting multiple oponents, there is no way you can avoid geting imobilised and bursted down, either by a basilisk thief or 100b warrior, its will happen, which means instant death if you dont have shadowstep, so thats a must in my utilities bar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HiYUlhsO_M
cough*keyboardturningclicker*cough
Having read a few posts I may actually try RFI again, and maybe a few others. Its always good to change up for the fun.