Short bow NEEDS remake

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Posted by: TheDarkSoul.1938

TheDarkSoul.1938

I don’t want to see SB AA’s bounce removed. It’d be nice if it got a small damage buff, but nothing TOO substantial. I’d much rather see a range buff.

Only thing I think SB 2 needs is increased travel speed because right now its too slow to hit anything unless it’s right next to you. Other than that I feel its a pretty good skill.

I really don’t think we need extra stealth on SB tbh, I think the cripple would be okay if not for the fact that everyone has these movement enhancing traits and those that make them less susceptible to movement-impairing conditions. Maybe make the cripple last longer but I wouldn’t want the damage or the cripple removed entirely.

In regards to Dagger, slight nerf to AA wouldnt be uncalled for, but HS? I don’t see why that has to be changed at all personally. Also, SS doesn’t need to be a second IS/IR because then you’re making S/D even more redundant and I’d argue you’re making SS even more overpowered. Just shave the damage on SS or remove the blind. Done. Don’t personally thinK BP needs a change either but idk. P

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Posted by: vaxjani.9073

vaxjani.9073

What i would like for Shortbow are:

1. Faster projectile for AA so you cannot sidestep it or go out of range while running away from it.
2. Longer poison duration on #4 (because they still havent buffed that after poison started stacking in intensity so its kinda bad against downed)

SB #2 does good enough AoE damage already and its speed is probably there so you can blast it to the smaller pieces in time.

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

Reposting from the other Thread.

Nooo stupid forum didn’t post and deleted my comments

First things first… Thief is already Initiative starved, this is caused by Anet balancing all Initiative costs on the Preparedness 15 Initiative pool, instead of the 12 Initiative pool baseline which should be what all costs are balanced on, the proper fix would be to balance around 12 Initiative( I don’t see that ever happening since it requires them to put effort into balancing skills properly), the quick fix would be to make Preparedness Baseline and making a new trait instead for Trickery. Increasing Initiative costs on skills otherwise is not an Option.

In regards to SB

The damage buffs to AA are needed butThief already lacks AoE so removing the Bounce would hurt it more than normal, a bigger fix is the projectile pathing needs to be fixed 90% of the time it receives Obstructed on perfectly flat terrain.

Thief Weapons for the most part are all Hybrid sans S/X and Staff. They shouldn’t remove poison field It is integral to point pressure to combat Rezzing and Combat the ridiculous amount of heals going on.

They don’t need a blind field SB 5 already Blinds.

Having a Stealth skill on SB would be very nice addition but is not necessarily needed.

Your D/P changes are ridiculous to say the least, the only one with Merit is the BP reduction.

Heartseeker does not need an Evade it would causes brainless spam even more.

Shadowshot rework would make it a Superior IS/IR something D/P does not need, and would be the ultimate nail in the coffin killing S/X Builds completely.

Yes Staff 5 needs a damage Nerf for similar Reasons as the SotM nerf Rev received just not as bad since it has punish frames built in and does not Cc.

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

No redesign of shortbow is needed. It is intended to be a kiting/mobility/utility weapon and it fulfils those roles very well.

If you want more ranged dps options you will want to have a P/P redesign which is intended to be our ranged offensive set.

Gandara

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Posted by: TheDarkSoul.1938

TheDarkSoul.1938

30 initiative that refills on weapon swap? Are you insane? Do you have idea how stoopidly OP that would be? You’re talking enormous stealth uptime with D/P, ridiculous amounts of spam with no punishment for doing so; having a limited initiative pool is the only thing that keeps our lack of weapon skills CDs in check, if you made it go up to 30 AND refills every time we switch weapons you may as well just remove initiative altogether. Stupidest thing I’ve ever heard, sorry lol.

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Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

Putting stealth on a spammable ranged attack would be a silly idea. First, sure you get 2 seconds stealth, but then you can’t use the skill again or you will get 4 seconds of revealed. that’s not the way the skill is intended and it works fine as is. which defeats the purpose of initiative on the weapon. Leave Short bow as it is, maybe give it a damage boost to make it more viable as a main weapon, but leave it’s core functionality alone.

(edited by emkelly.2371)

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Posted by: TheDarkSoul.1938

TheDarkSoul.1938

But now you’re completely overcomplicating Thief’s core mechanic. There’s no reason at all for us to get a bigger initiative pool, the only change that needs to be made is Preparedness baseline so that Trickery isn’t as mandatory anymore. If you had 30 initiative, effectively doubling our initiative pool, that also refills back to 30 on weapon swap, you’d have to add abit more than just 1 or 2 extra init costs to our skills to balance them out. We get by with 15 initiative that doesn’t refill on weapon swap just fine right now, we don’t need more of it and certainly not in the way you suggest because that opens up a plethora of other problems.

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Posted by: Westenev.5289

Westenev.5289

From a balance perspective:

Shortbow #1: Is functional as a tagging weapon (that is nowhere on the level of the guardian’s lootstick)
Shortbow #2: Is a spammable blast finisher (VERY USEFUL)
Shortbow #3: I forgot what this skill was.
Shortbow #4: Poison field. Great for spraying downed opponents while I finish them to charge my bloodlust sigil, though admittedly not much else.
Shortbow #5: Is a very useful utility that has saved me several times (the teleport is in the projectile, and will still function if I’m hard cc’ed).

All in all, I think the shortbow is an excellent utility weapon that many thieves will be hard done by to replace. AND PLEASE, don’t suggest nerf’s to make your idea meta – because it won’t. If you balance around the weakest weapon set, you’re not going to create a new meta – you’ll create a dead class.

(This is coming from a rookie D/P – Shortbow Thief)

(edited by Westenev.5289)

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Stop making same thread in different sections.

Just no.

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Posted by: Westenev.5289

Westenev.5289

Snip.

I don’t mean to be mean, but what’re you comparing and how does it relate to the capabilities of the thief shortbow? How does the amount of hits a Thief can do per minute relate to how its shortbow should be buffed?

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Posted by: JonnyForgotten.4276

JonnyForgotten.4276

OP suggestions: ABSOLUTELY NOT. Shortbow works quite well the way it is. The only two changes I would suggest is a slight buff to projectile speed on #1 and #2.

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Posted by: Westenev.5289

Westenev.5289

You’re assuming that a thief MUST spam every skill off cooldown (metaphorically – thief weapons don’t have cooldowns) – staff in particular doesn’t always work this way. Staff 3 and 4 are EXTREMELY situational, with 2 and 5 being your main dps buffs. The only reason I could imagine one would have to continually spam 2 or 5 would be either to burst down an opponent or proc Lead Attacks to 15 stacks – both of which should be punished if executed poorly.

Pistol does have access to stealth though – Bounded Leap + Pistol 5 or Pistol 5/Dagger 2 or Pistol 5 + Blinding Powder… all of which are fairly easily accessible. I agree that stealth should be a main mechanic of thief, never dispute that, but it shouldn’t be a free action either.

As for mobility, there’s always shadow shot. I will agree that P/P S/P has a lot to be desired in this regard, but there’s always Dash.

As for buffing shortbow, it’s a utility weapon – I’m all up for buffs, but given the amount of projectile hate already flying around, I feel it would actually be detrimental and irresponsible (in my opinion) to give it a dps upgrade. I’m also afraid that by turning it into a dps weapon, you’d see MASSIVE initiative requirements – in place of a weapon that already holds some of the best utilities in the game.

If shortbow were to be buffed, I think projectile speed on 2 would be a better area of focus – or a 1200/1500 range rifle elite spec!

(edited by Westenev.5289)

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Posted by: emkelly.2371

emkelly.2371

Snip.

I don’t mean to be mean, but what’re you comparing and how does it relate to the capabilities of the thief shortbow? How does the amount of hits a Thief can do per minute relate to how its shortbow should be buffed?

As I explained above, Thief can use Weapon Skills 16 times while Revenant can do 36.
While all Weapon Skills are on cooldown, tanky melee class can just spam auto attacks.
While all Weapon Skills are on cooldown, ranged class can just spam auto attacks.
But Thief with 0 initiative cannot stay in melee range and spam auto attacks
unless youre trying to finish off your opponent who is about to die.
Anet increased Thief melee auto attack damage many times
but I think melee weapons are not in need of help.
Short Bow auto attack needs to be increased by 100% and needs some stealth.
Pistol needs bit more evades , stealth , or mobility.
A squishy class needs good ranged damage
because a squishy class cannot stay in melee range most of the time.

Yes, Thieves have a hard limit on how many weapon skills they can use over the course of a minute, but unlike every class in the game, a thief can spam those weapon skills. Death blossom, Shadow shot, Unload, Vault, The thief uses these because their weapons are not intended to work like other classes. A thief weapon is built around one or two skills being used often while the remaining skills are used sparingly. you cannot compare thief weapons to other classes weapons, because they are entirely different than any other classes weapon designs.

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Posted by: Doggie.3184

Doggie.3184

Shortbow used to be great (with the exception of Cluster Bomb defying gravity and moving too slow) but it became a victim of multiple nerf-bat beatings.

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Posted by: Yannir.4132

Yannir.4132

@SuperKorean Many of your suggested changes in this thread and in the past have been ridiculously powercreep-y. Please stop treating this game as if it is an eastern MMO, as it’s not. And the day it starts going that direction, about 80% of the players will leave it, and move to something more reasonable. There’s a reason why those aren’t major competitors in EU or NA.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

SB needs a few minor tweaks.

Increase porjectile speed of the AA by 33 percent Retain the bounce. Increase Immob from stealth by .5 seconds. This because stealth not too easily acheived on SB meaning skill can not be spammed.

On Choking gas apply TWO stacks of poison per pulse keeping the 2 second duration,

Choking gas SHOULD work as area denial. As is even if spamming it, the apps and durations are so low many can just stand in the field and ignore it.

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Posted by: Kocoff.7582

Kocoff.7582

I honestly don’t know if you are trolling, when you suggest Sb 5 to break stun, immo, and 2 seconds of stealth.

Choking gas is fine
sb 3 … 2 seconds of stealth.
Are you serious?

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

SB needs a few minor tweaks.

Increase porjectile speed of the AA by 33 percent Retain the bounce. Increase Immob from stealth by .5 seconds. This because stealth not too easily acheived on SB meaning skill can not be spammed.

On Choking gas apply TWO stacks of poison per pulse keeping the 2 second duration,

Choking gas SHOULD work as area denial. As is even if spamming it, the apps and durations are so low many can just stand in the field and ignore it.

Going to need to beg to differ, here. With Potent Poison and Expertise it can easily push close to 3k ticks, which mind you is at range and unblockable in an AoE.

Baseline it’s not good as a damaging tool, but two stacks would be pretty insane as far as damage goes, as a build like above would be pushing 4x 4s Pulses of 2 stacks or 32 ticks of poison in a very short period on no cooldown which can’t be blocked and acts as a poison field for others. To make it better at denial it’d probably just be wiser to extend the duration of the field, no?

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

SB needs a few minor tweaks.

Increase porjectile speed of the AA by 33 percent Retain the bounce. Increase Immob from stealth by .5 seconds. This because stealth not too easily acheived on SB meaning skill can not be spammed.

On Choking gas apply TWO stacks of poison per pulse keeping the 2 second duration,

Choking gas SHOULD work as area denial. As is even if spamming it, the apps and durations are so low many can just stand in the field and ignore it.

Going to need to beg to differ, here. With Potent Poison and Expertise it can easily push close to 3k ticks, which mind you is at range and unblockable in an AoE.

Baseline it’s not good as a damaging tool, but two stacks would be pretty insane as far as damage goes, as a build like above would be pushing 4x 4s Pulses of 2 stacks or 32 ticks of poison in a very short period on no cooldown which can’t be blocked and acts as a poison field for others. To make it better at denial it’d probably just be wiser to extend the duration of the field, no?

Duration of the base ensures not too many stacks get on. it a field and can be stepped out of just as people step out of fire fields. Spamming the skill means No Ini left for anything else. That enemy has one condition clear and the poison gone and the thief stuck with his AA to do further damage. SB does not have a lot of cover conditions and if one switches to the bleed as a cover you do less poison as both compete for the same ini.

If you spam the skill and the person steps out of the field no damage is done. The shot is slow, it easy to read when it incoming.

in short there plenty of counters just as there are with caltrops and you can get a lot of bleed stacks off caltrops if someone just stands in them.

Corrosive poison cloud does 4 poison per tick with 5 pulses. You do not stand in that and if you do you deserve what you get as far as poison concerned. I do not see why the sb choking gas can not do damage enough to force a person off point without having to use up all your ini and be unable to do anything else.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Jugglemonkey.8741

Jugglemonkey.8741

Shortbow already hits for 1.5-2k depending on glassy targets, and I don’t play super glassy at that. Increasing the damage by 100% would mean hits up to 6k hits against glass targets when adding air/fire sigils, which would be crazy OP for a 900 range weapon’s auto attack.

Similar logic, my pistol whip can hit 12-14k with an interrupt, is a stun, and a thief can easily build for 15s of quickness. If you can’t see how that would be ludicrously OP with 30 ini then we can pretty much end the thread right there.

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Posted by: Nenshoukarasu.6598

Nenshoukarasu.6598

well yeah shortbow needs a remake…
but your changes are kinda too much imo

> Shortbow 1 –increase rate of fire by 25% or damage by 25%
> Shortbow 2 – its fine as it is… maybe increasing the AoE field by 20% or so dunno
> Shortbow 3 – well as it is now its useless so adding stealth would be nice (ranger has something similar with stealth so why not give the “master of stealth” the option to do it as well?
> Shortbow 4 – increase the radius of the poison flield by 20%-50%
> Shortbow 5 – add break stun + remove immob is all it needs imo

well it is a shortbow so the range of 900 kinda is ok but it should have a higher rate of fire since you are quicker to draw the shortbow compared to a longbow.

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Posted by: Blacksarevok.8104

Blacksarevok.8104

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

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Posted by: Nenshoukarasu.6598

Nenshoukarasu.6598

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

nah 3 is useless and tbh i never use it because as a thief i don’t really need it.. if i’m stunned i need to evade anyways to get rid of that and if someone is too close i also use my evade to run away. or just simply 5 if i have enough initiative left (which is rarely the case due the high init costs on most of the skills)

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Posted by: JonnyForgotten.4276

JonnyForgotten.4276

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

nah 3 is useless and tbh i never use it because as a thief i don’t really need it.. if i’m stunned i need to evade anyways to get rid of that and if someone is too close i also use my evade to run away. or just simply 5 if i have enough initiative left (which is rarely the case due the high init costs on most of the skills)

3 can actually be quite useful for positioning, especially when you don’t have enough ini to bail out with #5.

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Posted by: Nenshoukarasu.6598

Nenshoukarasu.6598

imo it just needs like + 25-30% damage on #1 and it’s fine.

nah 3 is useless and tbh i never use it because as a thief i don’t really need it.. if i’m stunned i need to evade anyways to get rid of that and if someone is too close i also use my evade to run away. or just simply 5 if i have enough initiative left (which is rarely the case due the high init costs on most of the skills)

3 can actually be quite useful for positioning, especially when you don’t have enough ini to bail out with #5.

nah i rather use my evasion then 3 because it breaks any kind of movement debuff and it let’s me run further then just hopping a few steps back.
on the other hand if 3 would give you stealth on top of it it would’ve more use.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Keep in mind if ANet goes near the SB, they will make it worse. That teleport, yeah they will nerf that (pre/post cast delays and slow the port itself), then bump the AA damage by 10% and not look at the weapon ever again.

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Posted by: Adoninilol.3180

Adoninilol.3180

While i agree that the weapon needs fixing i don’t think nerfing #5 is an good option. I just think skill #1 needs like a 300% damage increase, same with skill #2, skill #3 is fine, #4 needs damage increase.

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Posted by: NinjaEd.3946

NinjaEd.3946

1. Shortbow aa is fine, the damage could use a slight buff but its heat seeking (unless that has been changed, I play once in a blue moon these days), and bounces. Not like DH aa that fractures to a target behind it, it bounces in any direction and seeks. If anything slight dps boost.

2. Increase speed of bomb to that of engineer nades, remove bleed on non-detonate however it now leaves a field of caltrops identical to that of the trait “Uncatchable” (smaller duration and radius to that of caltrops). As for “on-detonate” just increase the bleed duration to 4 seconds and number of bombs to 4. Goal is to give it more uses than blasting your feet or detonating it at your feet, send it at a doorway to cripple incoming foes momentarily or detonate it from a distance and it would now have better AoE damage than before.

3. Its unfortunately an evade skill on a thief weapon set so it has that natural “spam” capability. If anything greatly increase the evade distance so it gets you out of a red ring, something like from ~240-~400 (still less than heartseeker)

4. Fields are nice, especially when combined with something like lotus training but for applying damage solely to cause reveal they should bump the poison duration on impact atleast. Increase poison stacks to 2 and duration to 5 seconds on impact, leave the pulsing field as is.

5. Fine as is, has typical pathing issues but that’s not something any value adjustment can really fix, send that to development.

In short: Shortbow could use an update, but I wouldn’t say its so out of style that it needs a remake. It just could use a few tweaks so it gets placed back as an all around utility weapon.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Anet nerfed the #2 skill a long ways back… rolling that back would certainly help the weapon.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Nah, less HS spam is better.

Just nerf HoT and we’re fine for the most part (aside from OH dagger needing a major rework).