Guild Wars 2

As the title says, which is the main stat for shortbow? While leveling I focused on condition damage, carrion armor/jewels/etc, and loved it. At 80, though, I feel as if I should move away from condition damage. I know cluster bombs inflict bleed, but is the explosion the majority of the damage over the bleed?

Also, is D/D viable in PvE as a non condition DB build? I don’t really want a glass cannon, but is there any non condition build that works well for D/D & SB at 80? PvE and maybe a few dungeons is what I would be doing.

I would say the shortbow is primarily condition damage with the bleeds from cluster bombs + the poison from choking gas. You can stack quite a few bleeds with chained cluster bombs if you know what you’re doing. But it will benefit from either or.

i prefer crit dmg. i run around doing 6k+ crits with 1 shot clusters. and it aoes so its fun watching me spam faster than a cannon would.

Hmm, would you rather have 3 explosions dealing 1000-1500 damage + 3 bleed each or a big explosion dealing 4000-6000 damage, adding 1 bleed while also being a blast finisher?

Easy choice really…

Poison isn’ a good damage-dealing condition, it’s worth ~2 bleeds. The -33% heal is the strong point. And 3 bleeds for 4 sec from cluster is not much if compared to the huge direct damage it’s able to deliver. The Autoattack is not weak either and no conditiondmg here.

Spliting the bomb increases the damage of both the direct damage and the bleed damage. (look it up if you don’t believe this) If there is no combofield for the blastfinisher, always split.

It always seemed like exploding cluster bomb early does more damage, without even factoring in the bleeds.

How would a non condition build work for PvE D/D? SB for mobs and D/D for single targets is what I would like, i’m just tired of bleeds after 79 levels of it.

I’m personally a fully condition/precision/toughness thief, and I love the high DoT a shortbow cluster can deal (1,5k conditions dmg, I know may seem weak but can’t afford runes) wich means a 1410 total extra damage per cluster (besides the hit dmg) and 936 damage from poison cloud that also hinders their healing.
While vs more resistant this deals a good total damage, reason for my choice of condition power, vs some lower defense or lower health pool opponents power/precision will function better… So it’s really just a matter of choice…
You can simply go full rampagers and get the best of both worlds while not getting much defense (but as long as you know how to move that is not a problem).

I can’t escape the allure of the sb, so it is my off-set in every build. It is better with crit/power.

With Condi build, you have better ways of stacking bleeds and poison. Yes it still does well in Condi builds- but bunching the enemy up and popping caltrops and leaping death blossom is more efficient.

With high power and crit, shotgunning clusterbomb is great for high burst, which is also a better mechanism for taking down groups of mobs or players, since you want them dead fast.. not targeting and focusing you down.

Pair a high crit power build with signet of malice and dagger storm followed by sb clusterbomb for lots of lols.

It’s power/crit all the way. 3K auto crits that bounce and you still get base poison and bleed damage along with ridiculous cluster bomb damage.

It is usable on condition builds but for sure not what it’s best suited for.

Great to know it’s not only good for condition builds, now I don’t feel bad about changing builds. Thanks for all the help

I think Shortbow is the best secondary set in the game, but not as great of a primary set (even if you use it more, I consider the primary weapon the one you build for). You should build for your other set, and your Shortbow will keep its efficency no matter what you chose to build for as it’s very versatile and easily adaptable to any playstyle.

Now if you’re making good use of Shortbow (primary or secondary) I highly recommend going at least 15 on DA to be able to maintain Weakness in opponents. That will also give you extra power and condition duration.

I think Carrion synergies very well with Shorbow, it increases your power a decent amount, and also your condition damage for your bleeds and poisons. Pick some condition damage utilities/second weapon set (like P/D) to optimize your Carrion equipment and you’re done.

Dee Jay.2460:

Hmm, would you rather have 3 explosions dealing 1000-1500 damage + 3 bleed each or a big explosion dealing 4000-6000 damage, adding 1 bleed while also being a blast finisher?

Easy choice really…

Except the 3 explosions combined do more damage than the single bomb. Look the tooltip and do the sum (or just go test it in the pvp lobby).

If you’re going for direct damage it’s much better to detonate it (for both direct and condition damage).

The no-detonation version really shines as the best combo finisher in the game, but damage-wise it’s better (and faster) to detonate it.

Ok, combined they might add up to more but it’s difficult for all three Clusters to hit the same target.

In a typical situation however where you have 3 targets to kill an undetonated Clusterbomb will hit all three for 4000 (totaling 12000) or I can split it into three Clusters each dealing about 1500 damage to every target they hit.

The only way the Clusters deal more damage in total is if each Cluster hits 2-3 targets.

If you’re using signet of malice, then detonating nets WAY more healing.
So that’s another thing to consider.

Its not that hard to detonate at the last second to ensure the detonated ones all hit the same things.

with the low base duration on the bleeds coupled with the long delivery time if doing anything but shotgunning and the non issue of poison damage power builds win hands down with the shortbow and outside of combo fields, detonating at the right time nets the higher damage potential (it does vary a bit with crits and such but in general your looking at a slightly higher damage potential with the detonated to the non detonated)

The fact that shortbow works nicely with both direct and condition damage is one of the things that makes it the best secondary weapon(set).

Too bad condition damage builds for thieves are all garbage compared to autoattacking.

Just go for Might stacks, celestial accessories, power/precision armor, and divinity runes, as well as 25 % condition duration. You’ll get the best of both worlds with extended bleeds that do non-base damage, but you’ll sacrifice very little in the way of direct offensive power. Optionally, switch in some Rampager’s gear to shore up your precision and condition damage.

SB is a flexible weapon, there’s no reason to overspecialize, especially since you will be doing dual damage types with cluster bomb.

The most effective way to use Shortbow would be to use a combination of Condition Damage and Power.
You can hype up how awesome you think the direct damage is all you want, but it deals even more condition damage. There is no way in frozen fiery hell you’ll get more damage out of something like Precision than you would Condition Damage.
With how much Bleeding and Poison it provides, Precision and Critical Damage together probably would not boost the damage as much as Condition Damage alone.

Grimwolf.7163:

The most effective way to use Shortbow would be to use a combination of Condition Damage and Power.
You can hype up how awesome you think the direct damage is all you want, but it deals even more condition damage. There is no way in frozen fiery hell you’ll get more damage out of something like Precision than you would Condition Damage.
With how much Bleeding and Poison it provides, Precision and Critical Damage together probably would not boost the damage as much as Condition Damage alone.

Actually having done at least some of the base maths, a good critical rate and damage modifier with a high power set up is going to do more damage.

Thats before you factor in the need for condition duration gear at the expense of other damage stats to make condition build viable for shortbow outside of shotgunning and before you factor in the extra trickshot hits you get when you fire a longer range cluster bomb.

Shortbow is probably the least effective condition damage weapon for thieves even with the permapoison ability of it.

Dasorine.1964:

Grimwolf.7163:

The most effective way to use Shortbow would be to use a combination of Condition Damage and Power.
You can hype up how awesome you think the direct damage is all you want, but it deals even more condition damage. There is no way in frozen fiery hell you’ll get more damage out of something like Precision than you would Condition Damage.
With how much Bleeding and Poison it provides, Precision and Critical Damage together probably would not boost the damage as much as Condition Damage alone.

Actually having done at least some of the base maths, a good critical rate and damage modifier with a high power set up is going to do more damage.

Thats before you factor in the need for condition duration gear at the expense of other damage stats to make condition build viable for shortbow outside of shotgunning and before you factor in the extra trickshot hits you get when you fire a longer range cluster bomb.

Shortbow is probably the least effective condition damage weapon for thieves even with the permapoison ability of it.

Yeah, you’re right. I looked at it again, and it deals significantly less Bleeding damage than I had thought.
It’s like they throw all the condition damage on the weapon just to trick people into building wrong, and detriment even those who build properly.

Dasorine.1964:

Thats before you factor in the need for condition duration gear at the expense of other damage stats to make condition build viable for shortbow outside of shotgunning and before you factor in the extra trickshot hits you get when you fire a longer range cluster bomb.

25 points in the power tree also gives you exactly the amount of condition duration required to hit the first major breakpoint for your 4-second base bleeds (turning them into 5-second bleeds).

Tulisin.6945:

Dasorine.1964:

Thats before you factor in the need for condition duration gear at the expense of other damage stats to make condition build viable for shortbow outside of shotgunning and before you factor in the extra trickshot hits you get when you fire a longer range cluster bomb.

25 points in the power tree also gives you exactly the amount of condition duration required to hit the first major breakpoint for your 4-second base bleeds (turning them into 5-second bleeds).

Yep but at a reasonable range your still taking 2-3 seconds to actually apply the bleeds meaning even with 25 points in the tree for 5 second bleeds your looking at around 6 bleeds maximum without going to shotgun range, thats of course if you have a decent latency as a big of skill lag and you could very well miss the optimal detonate time (not so much an issue for direct damage builds but absolutely vital for someone trying to make it a condition weapon)

Without those condition duration increases your going to really struggle to keep even the singular stack of bleeds up continuously.

Compared to the other condition weapons where pistol can easily maintain 7-8 bleeds with just autoattack and dagger/dagger you can hit 12 in an aoe.

I tried out two separate builds in the Mists. One with Deadly Arts and heavy Power/Condition, the other with heavy Critical Strikes and Power/Precision/Crit.
Even when I started adding some purely extra Precision/Crit to the condition build while standing at point blank range spamming Cluster Bomb detonations with Choking Gas taking Initiative in each build, the Condition build was still lagging behind.
It was significantly less optimal.

Tip for not missing detonation: fire it somewhere not close to your character. You’ll detonate it just as fast and it’ll have the same results, but the shell will take longer to hit the ground meaning you have more time to detonate in the case of lag.

And yes condition damage needs work. Thieves just don’t have any of it. Only d/d is mildly effective and that’s because it’s AOE and the bleeds last long enough to justify dodging and avoiding damage while the damage is ticking.

Shortbow is better with power. Explode your cluster bombs just before they hit, and they’ll do a little more damage from their explosions combined than the single large one. Plus you’ll also get 3 bleed stacks for extra damage instead of one.

You just can’t stack up the conditions fast enough with shortbow to make a condi build viable, but a power build is viable thanks to the raw power of cluster bomb.

Now if you can suppliment your condition damage without harming your power, then that’s fantastic. Celestial Gear or Rampager gear are options for adding condition damage to your shortbow without losing much of the punch. I personally add some celestial since it keeps the crit damage and gives you great stats all over to boot. You can get celestial gear outside the mists on ascended accessories.

I just want to make something clear so people don’t get confused.
Cluster is better with power/precision/crit at 80 while using an Exotic weapon.

While leveling and using a blue or green weapon, the (weapon damage/armor) portion of the direct damage equation hurts direct damage enough that condition damage comes out slightly ahead vs equal level PvE mobs and quite a bit ahead vs anything that’s over your level.

So it’s only “wrong” to build shortbow for condition damage at 80 with an exotic weapon.

phor.7952:

I just want to make something clear so people don’t get confused.
Cluster is better with power/precision/crit at 80 while using an Exotic weapon.

While leveling and using a blue or green weapon, the (weapon damage/armor) portion of the direct damage equation hurts direct damage enough that condition damage comes out slightly ahead vs equal level PvE mobs and quite a bit ahead vs anything that’s over your level.

So it’s only “wrong” to build shortbow for condition damage at 80 with an exotic weapon.

That is not true though, I ran the calculations and power build always comes out ahead of condition damage even in optimal conditions for condition damage compared to just blue weapons for power because while the weapons lower damage scaling effects power the condition damage scales even worse at all times.

And of course there is the massive limitations of shortbow as a condition weapon, it just doesnt work well as one, any situation where it starts being “reasonable” other weapons choices far out do it for condition and a direct damage build with it is still better than its condition damage.

The only scenario where going condition build with shortbow beats direct damage builds for shortbow (outside of something grossly unfair like full rares for condition and naked for power) is if you fight something with insanely high armour

phor.7952:

I just want to make something clear so people don’t get confused.
Cluster is better with power/precision/crit at 80 while using an Exotic weapon.

While leveling and using a blue or green weapon, the (weapon damage/armor) portion of the direct damage equation hurts direct damage enough that condition damage comes out slightly ahead vs equal level PvE mobs and quite a bit ahead vs anything that’s over your level.

So it’s only “wrong” to build shortbow for condition damage at 80 with an exotic weapon.

It’s always wrong. Use d/d instead. If you use shortbow use power.

Technically, the condition builds can outpace the direct damage builds in terms of long-term sustained damage – especially against targets with high toughness. The trick is you have to boost bleed durations a lot and running something with boosted initiative helps, too.

With food, a thief can get up to +125% bleed duration, which turns the normal 4 ticks of bleed into 7 ticks. Using point blank CB shotgun (pre-detonate at feet), combine with high condition damage and easily maintained 100% poison uptime and the condition build easily outstrips the direct damage IF there’s not condition removal going on. Dagger Storm is a good companion elite.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea to do, though. There’s a lot more to build value than damage in a vacuum.

One other thing… Shortbow PBAoE pre-detonated Clusterbomb is the highest sustained condition damage the thief class is capable of producing. No, Pistol MH and Leaping Death Blossom cannot do better. So, if Shortbow can’t produce competitive condition damage, then nothing else the Thief class does can either.

Daeqar.8965:

Technically, the condition builds can outpace the direct damage builds in terms of long-term sustained damage – especially against targets with high toughness. The trick is you have to boost bleed durations a lot and running something with boosted initiative helps, too.

With food, a thief can get up to +125% bleed duration, which turns the normal 4 ticks of bleed into 7 ticks. Using point blank CB shotgun (pre-detonate at feet), combine with high condition damage and easily maintained 100% poison uptime and the condition build easily outstrips the direct damage IF there’s not condition removal going on. Dagger Storm is a good companion elite.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good idea to do, though. There’s a lot more to build value than damage in a vacuum.

One other thing… Shortbow PBAoE pre-detonated Clusterbomb is the highest sustained condition damage the thief class is capable of producing. No, Pistol MH and Leaping Death Blossom does not keep up. So, if Shortbow can’t produce competitive condition damage, then nothing else the Thief class does can either.

Actually dagger/dagger when built right has the highest sustained condition damage due to the longer durations.

If you have 100% condition duration and the +3 initiative base from trickery

Shortbow opens with 15 bleeds for 8 seconds with another 3 applied every 4 seconds (so with no extra initiative regen after the first 8 seconds it maintains 6 bleeds)

Compared to deathblossom which opens with 9 bleeds for 20 seconds and can maintain 9 bleeds through out the fight with no initiative gain, so initially has less bleeds but over time has more.

If you add extra initiative regen in death blossom gets more and more, if you reduce the condition duration deathblossom still wins etc.

And of course for safety pistol is best as you can do all of your bleeds at a distance that neither shortbow or daggers can match at the cost of being single target only.

Dasorine.1964:

Actually dagger/dagger when built right has the highest sustained condition damage due to the longer durations.

If you have 100% condition duration and the +3 initiative base from trickery

Shortbow opens with 15 bleeds for 8 seconds with another 3 applied every 4 seconds (so with no extra initiative regen after the first 8 seconds it maintains 6 bleeds)

Compared to deathblossom which opens with 9 bleeds for 20 seconds and can maintain 9 bleeds through out the fight with no initiative gain, so initially has less bleeds but over time has more.

If you add extra initiative regen in death blossom gets more and more, if you reduce the condition duration deathblossom still wins etc.

And of course for safety pistol is best as you can do all of your bleeds at a distance that neither shortbow or daggers can match at the cost of being single target only.

I’m looking at overall damage (direct damage done included with condition damage) and since the thread was about shortbow, I also assume you’re going multi-target. (3+ targets) Shortbow wins out there.

Single target, D/D can be better because it’s not hamstrung by only damaging 1 target much of the time (outside of the bleeds ticking.)

Practically speaking, LDB is a lot more vulnerable to condition removal. It hurts a lot more having a 22s bleed removed than rapidly applied shorter duration ones.

And I agree, Pistol is usually a lot more playable as an overall build. Thieves don’t necessarily make the best PBAoE bots, although at least they can provide a blast finisher niche in WvW group strats.

As a condition build, the shortbow will most likely not be your main bleed stacking tool for the most part in a 1v1 fight. I suppose if you treat the SB as an escape tool and something to use on groups when you need to back off, it can work. It would be gimping you a little, but maybe the extra way to escape with IA means you can power up elsewhere.

Best bet is to take it into the mists, build a spec, try it out, improve and repeat until you are happy. It really comes down to how you want to play, and what suits your needs. Sure it may not be the ideal set up, but it may be better for you as you enjoy it more.

well overall damage shortbow comes out better because of the better direct damage base (hence why Im stating its ideally a power based weapon not a condition damage one if your trying to utilize it as your primary weapon) but when it comes to sustaining damage from conditions alone the other two are superior in their own ways but loose out on the direct damage.

Molch.2078:

Poison isn’ a good damage-dealing condition, it’s worth ~2 bleeds. The -33% heal is the strong point. And 3 bleeds for 4 sec from cluster is not much if compared to the huge direct damage it’s able to deliver. The Autoattack is not weak either and no conditiondmg here.

Spliting the bomb increases the damage of both the direct damage and the bleed damage. (look it up if you don’t believe this) If there is no combofield for the blastfinisher, always split.

Venom thief applies weakness on poison. Tack that on, and you’ve applied about 10s of weakness on the fool that stood there for a few seconds. Hit a zerg and you’ve applied weakness up to 5 people at a time.

Also, Poison Field + Cluster Bomb = Area Weakness. Do not denounce how effective weakness can be in a zerg fight or on glass cannon builds:

“Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%; 50% of Non Critical hits are glancing blows (50% damage); stacks duration”

Personally, I see the Shortbow as Precision/Condition weapon.

Dasorine.1964:

That is not true though, I ran the calculations and power build always comes out ahead of condition damage even in optimal conditions for condition damage compared to just blue weapons for power because while the weapons lower damage scaling effects power the condition damage scales even worse at all times.

Anyone can say “I ran the calculations” on the internt.
Until you actually post them, how can anyone take you seriously?

With a power/crit build cluster bomb hits like a truck and trickkitten easily crits for over 1k a hit on multiple enemies.

I’d never use SB as a condition weapon in a condition build for anything but the poison.

I agree with power/crit/crit dmg. The conditions from SB are just bonus damage.

I mostly play Wv3 with SB and tried a condition duration build to maximize poison and weakness debuffs… full 30 in DA, Rata Sum runes and everything.

It totally worked, and just didn’t hit hard enough. It was fun to watch your opponents try to escape while you just kept stacking on weakness/poison and I really wanted it to be more powerful.

It just didn’t have the big numbers and the take down speed that I wanted.