Guild Wars 2

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

Source?

That is bullkitten if true, luckily it shouldn’t be more than a 3/4 second revealed…

End of the twitch video, when they’re addressing questions. 45:10
It’s a 4s Reveal

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

Its not about the duration or the CD, its about the basic design principle.

A skill that completely locks out 33% of a thiefs class mechanics, and potentially 42% of their total trait points (if they’re 30 into SA) is kitten poor design. Making it completely unavoidable removes all skill from the equation – it doesn’t matter if I outplay the kitten out of you, you can slot a button that says “you are revealed for 4s, no matter what you do”, and that’s just dumb.

Sick’em is not a threat. This is because it has to be put on before you go into stealth and will not interrupt your current stealth. This means a ranger will have to anticipate stealth or set up a burst by using it first but we will just dodge their following burst. The problem will be if they decide to buff it.

evilapprentice.6379:

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

Really Thief?

Yet after 13+ months, stealth can not be countered!

Now were’re Tied.

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

LOL, if thats true then I’m very very kittening worried.

LuRkEr.9462:

Sick’em is not a threat. This is because it has to be put on before you go into stealth and will not interrupt your current stealth. This means a ranger will have to anticipate stealth or set up a burst by using it first but we will just dodge their following burst. The problem will be if they decide to buff it.

See my response directly above – I don’t even run a stealth build. I haven’t for months, and don’t plan on running one any time soon. I have no personal stake in this. It’s just dumb, dumb, dumb design.

Elxdark.9702:

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

LOL, if thats true then I’m very very kittening worried.

I agree if this is true I will be very displeased as its our only way to survive all those condition builds in pvp. This will make us pretty squishy in a pvp setting.

Burnfall.9573:

evilapprentice.6379:

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

Really Thief?

Yet after 13+ months, stealth can not be countered!

Now were’re Tied.

It’s been counter-able since I learned to play, way back in 2012. An EZ mode button was bad enough, an unavoidable EZ mode button is just silly. But I know you’re a troll. I eagerly await your new excuses when Sic em does nothing to make up for your inability to adapt.

LuRkEr.9462:

Elxdark.9702:

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

LOL, if thats true then I’m very very kittening worried.

I agree if this is true I will be very displeased as its our only way to survive all those condition builds in pvp. This will make us pretty squishy in a pvp setting.

Let’s wait until tomorrow for this one – if they toned down condi spam, then a toning down of Shadow’s Embrace makes sense. It only doesn’t make sense if condi’s remained untouched, and we don’t know anything on that front yet. This could be a testing holdover on whatever build they’re playing as well.

I’m not overly-concerned about it because, as many Rangers have pointed out, “Sic ’Em!” is still a lackluster skill that would require them sacrificing another, better utility. However, the fact it’s an unavoidable counter to an entire traitline was a kitten design.

The tooltip for Shadow’s Embrace—condition removal every ten seconds—smacks of Smiter’s Booning. “Nerf that trait so hard that it will be practically useless, and no Thief will ever dream of bringing it along.” This was especially disappointing, since Roy Cronacher specifically mentioned that they wanted to take baby steps in balancing to avoid over-nerfing—at least in regards to the Warrior.

Color me surprised.

evilapprentice.6379:

LuRkEr.9462:

Elxdark.9702:

cyyrix.6105:

Sic’em is a 4s revealed on 40s CD.

If I were you, I’d be more worried about the Shadow’s Embrace nerf the dev accidentally showed in the tooltip (condi removal every 10s in stealth instead of 3s).

LOL, if thats true then I’m very very kittening worried.

I agree if this is true I will be very displeased as its our only way to survive all those condition builds in pvp. This will make us pretty squishy in a pvp setting.

Let’s wait until tomorrow for this one – if they toned down condi spam, then a toning down of Shadow’s Embrace makes sense. It only doesn’t make sense if condi’s remained untouched, and we don’t know anything on that front yet. This could be a testing holdover on whatever build they’re playing as well.

In the video he did that condition spam with a necro, it didn’t look very toned down :P

Imagi.4561:

I’m not overly-concerned about it because, as many Rangers have pointed out, “Sic ’Em!” is still a lackluster skill that would require them sacrificing another, better utility. However, the fact it’s an unavoidable counter to an entire traitline was a kitten design.

Exactly. It’s not about how effective Sic Em will be (against me it’ll be a waste of a slot, for example), it’s about the design principle and testing practices that allowed this to pass – Unavoidable skill that potentially locks an entire traitline, as well as 33% of thieves class design…

The tooltip for Shadow’s Embrace—condition removal every ten seconds—smacks of Smiter’s Booning. “Nerf that trait so hard that it will be practically useless, and no Thief will ever dream of bringing it along.” This was especially disappointing, since Roy Croncher specifically mentioned that they wanted to take baby steps in balancing to avoid over-nerfing—at least in regards to the Warrior.

Color me surprised.

They didn’t mention this – maybe it’s a holdover from testing that didn’t make it into the patch, maybe there’s a corresponding reduction in condi spam (which would make a Shadow’s Embrace nerf make sense), etc etc etc – lets wait til the patch on this one.

Shadow’s Embrace was arguably OP pre-condispam, but if they’ve nerfed condispam then it shouldn’t have more than a 3-5 sec ICD, 10 is just ridiculous

Imagi.4561:

I’m not overly-concerned about it because, as many Rangers have pointed out, “Sic ’Em!” is still a lackluster skill that would require them sacrificing another, better utility. However, the fact it’s an unavoidable counter to an entire traitline was a kitten design.

The tooltip for Shadow’s Embrace—condition removal every ten seconds—smacks of Smiter’s Booning. “Nerf that trait so hard that it will be practically useless, and no Thief will ever dream of bringing it along.” This was especially disappointing, since Roy Cronacher specifically mentioned that they wanted to take baby steps in balancing to avoid over-nerfing—at least in regards to the Warrior.

Color me surprised.

I and many others have always said Anet seems to favor warriors. They rarely nerf them at all and if they do its baby steps. They generally buff them when they have been a very strong class since launch and only seem to be getting better.

Most rangers wont be running sic em anyways. No worries~

evilapprentice.6379:

Imagi.4561:

The tooltip for Shadow’s Embrace—condition removal every ten seconds—smacks of Smiter’s Booning. “Nerf that trait so hard that it will be practically useless, and no Thief will ever dream of bringing it along.” This was especially disappointing, since Roy Croncher specifically mentioned that they wanted to take baby steps in balancing to avoid over-nerfing—at least in regards to the Warrior.

Color me surprised.

They didn’t mention this – maybe it’s a holdover from testing that didn’t make it into the patch, maybe there’s a corresponding reduction in condi spam (which would make a Shadow’s Embrace nerf make sense), etc etc etc – lets wait til the patch on this one.

I agree; it might not be as bad as it seems because of the changes to conditions, or it might not even make it into the game. We can only hope.

But if it is as bad as it seems, then I’ll stand by what I said. That type of balancing needs to stop.

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Stealth already has counters, it doesn’t need a an unavoidable counter that negates an entire traitline and and a large portion of the Thief class without any skill involved.

evilapprentice.6379:

kiwituatara.6053:

Most rangers wont be running sic em anyways. No worries~

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

Relax. The amount of stealth on some thief builds are ridiculous. Its pretty much a flawed counter for a flawed concept. ~shrug

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

The stealth itself is stupid design.
Get over it.

kiwituatara.6053:

evilapprentice.6379:

kiwituatara.6053:

Most rangers wont be running sic em anyways. No worries~

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

Relax. The amount of stealth on some thief builds are ridiculous. Its pretty much a flawed counter for a flawed concept. ~shrug

The caps are to be clear – when you see the same nonsensical response multiple times, you want to be clear.

“Stealth is flawed” is your opinion, and not a provable fact. An ability that can’t be avoided which negates up to 42% of spent trait points while also locking a class out of 33% of its class mechanics is provably flawed – there isn’t another attack in this game that has a comparable effect. It can’t be dodged (like every other attack in the game), it can’t be broken (Like stuns) or cleansed (like condi’s) once it hits – it’s literally removes skill from the equation for 4s. The fact that we’re talking about stealth is irrelevant – any attack with those criteria would be stupid.

If stealth is a problem, have sic-em make thieves visible while in stealth for 4 seconds – that way you’re not locking the class out of up to 30 trait points and their stealth attacks, while satisfying the biggest complaint about stealth (“Where did he go?”). I’m fine with counters to stealth – I disagree that they’re needed, but it’s not inherently flawed to attempt to counter stealth. It is inherently flawed to due it in such a heavy handed, poorly implemented manner, especially when my suggestion is infinitely better (AND achievable – there was a recently fixed bug that made thieves appear in full view on their own screens while in stealth, which means we know the game engine can handle rendering a stealthed thief visible while still gaining the trait/attack benefits of stealth)

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

The stealth itself is stupid design.
Get over it.

So are clones in my opinion, but you won’t see me asking for a skill that despawns them all and prevents new ones from being created for 4s (not seriously, anyway). Just because I don’t like fighting certain mesmer builds doesn’t mean they need a targeted, unavoidable, uncleansable hard counter.

Whether or not stealth is poorly designed does not justify a poorly designed counter – in fact, it’s a very bad argument. Lets take everything players don’t like and introduce uncleansable, unavoidable hard counters to it, and we’ll see how fun the game is.

Complaining about an ability that will most likely never be used, and even it does, it’s 4s on a 40s CD, which however does not negate the thief from dodging, shadowstepping away, blinding the Ranger, stunning the ranger, LoSing the ranger, outright killing the ranger, etc…. But you will counter with the same bull crap, “Waah, it’s not the fact that no one will use it, it’s the principle design that allowed, yadda yadda…” THE FACT IS…. This trait is extremely NICHE, and you will probably never see it used if at all and complaining about it is nothing short of ridiculous ranting that has no basis whatsoever.

Mepheles.2087:

Complaining about an ability that will most likely never be used, and even it does, it’s 4s on a 40s CD, which however does not negate the thief from dodging, shadowstepping away, blinding the Ranger, stunning the ranger, LoSing the ranger, outright killing the ranger, etc…. But you will counter with the same bull crap, “Waah, it’s not the fact that no one will use it, it’s the principle design that allowed, yadda yadda…” THE FACT IS…. This trait is extremely NICHE, and you will probably never see it used if at all and complaining about it is nothing short of ridiculous ranting that has no basis whatsoever.

So because it’s going to be rarely used it’s ok? That’s a ridiculous argument and you know it.

All these tears remind me of those that were shed when stealth disruptor traps were about to make their debut. There was a veritable river of tears flowing from the thief sub-forum, but guess what? I’ve yet to see one used and thieves’ stealth is as powerful as ever. This change to sic ’em will amount to the same thing. An ability few, if any, rangers will slot and if they do, will be marginally useful against any half-way decent thief that has put 30 points into shadow arts. It will be an inconvenience at best, not a class destroying skill as being portrayed in this thread.

Just be thankful that ANet isn’t changing cloaked in shadow, then thieves really would be hosed.

evilapprentice.6379:

ensoriki.5789:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

The stealth itself is stupid design.
Get over it.

So are clones in my opinion, but you won’t see me asking for a skill that despawns them all and prevents new ones from being created for 4s (not seriously, anyway). Just because I don’t like fighting certain mesmer builds doesn’t mean they need a targeted, unavoidable, uncleansable hard counter.

Whether or not stealth is poorly designed does not justify a poorly designed counter – in fact, it’s a very bad argument. Lets take everything players don’t like and introduce uncleansable, unavoidable hard counters to it, and we’ll see how fun the game is.

Sick em only prevents the access, it can’t be used on a stealthed target.
The design is hardly an issue. I have no qualm with it, I see quite some issue in the huge amount of stealth traits in Shadow arts which makes it highly favour /D, & D/P over the other 3 sets, increasingly so since S/P venom share became less effective with the inf strike nerf. Which makes this more significant than it should be. Though it does feel like a bandaid fix to go around incorrect stealth application in the first place that warranted its creation.

It actually doesn’t matter if stealth is “Flawed”. What matters is ANet is not satisfied with the gameplay that emerges from it as it exists now. Sic Em is a prototype (there WILL be more tools that apply revealed), but it’s also a signpost as to the way the wind is blowing in the only place that matters: the Dev’s ideaspace.

This new direction is not going to go away, so you might better spend your time figuring out how to reduce your reliance on stealth so that when a class that isn’t pathetically broken gets their hands on a new ‘Revealer’, you’re ready for that awful 4 seconds where your opponent has just told you to kitten off with your bad old self.

Dollars to donuts the Mesmer wall that grants stealth to allies will paste a big old revealed on stealthed enemies that touch it before the end of the year.

all this crying for naught. just like stealth traps that are never used, lol.

Poxheart.2845:

It will be an inconvenience at best, not a class destroying skill as being portrayed in this thread.

I don’t think anyone is saying it will be “a class destroying skill,” just ranting over how poorly this “counterplay” is being implemented.

The only ones crying here is D/P users. Bunch of scrubs.

To be fair how did you expect to dodge an instant cast shout to begin with. It’s not like sic’ em has any huge tells as it is now so you still probably wouldn’t anticipate it’s use very well.

histerico.6153:

To be fair how did you expect to dodge an instant cast shout to begin with. It’s not like sic’ em has any huge tells as it is now so you still probably wouldn’t anticipate it’s use very well.

Well, I assumed that the Revealed would take effect on the pet’s first attack after the shout. Even in team fights, you can hear when someone shouts “Sic ’Em!” (If you have your sound turned on, that is.)

This will me more harmful to other thiefs specs than the perma stealth dp spec bad move anet

Buzzcrave.6197:

The only ones crying here is D/P users. Bunch of scrubs.

Yep. I don’t rely on permastealth so this doesn’t worry me one bit. Nice to make this game more challenging. As a thief, it’s ezmode right now.

Buzzcrave.6197:

The only ones crying here is D/P users. Bunch of scrubs.

This won’t affect me greatly but i can at least see that objective horribleness of this design decision.

I’m going to say this for the umpteenth time: d/d conditions kitten s Rangers.

evilapprentice.6379:

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

Stealth is not your class mechanic. There are far more severe, more abundant and worst counters to other professions entire traitlines.

Seriously, this is the only counter to stealth and it basicly just gives you revealed. Its on a 40second cooldown.
Lets talk about how abusive Larcenous strike is. How easily that can shut down anyone build for boons. That is a counter.

When other people can spam Revealed on you over and over, then i might be interested in hearing your complaints.

evilapprentice.6379:

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

I understand your grudge.
But Sic em does not reveal you when in stealth, but gives you the revealed debuff while visible so you can’t go invisible.

So it would be more like:

- warrior: no adrenaline gain / disable F1 for 4s
- Ranger: Daze the pet for 4s / disable pet swap for 4s
- Necro: no life force gain / disable F1 for 4s

the right counter to stealth would have been letting the ranger “see” the stealthed thief, not put revealed on thief.
They should have countered “invisibility” not the only way to regen hp, have opener, remove condition (oh wait, they nerfed it) ….

too bad they are stupid. no solution for months and then this dumb idea….

When roaming in WvW, i’ll take “Sic’em!” every time on my ranger.
Thief casts black powder, use “Sic’em!” during heartseeker. Bam. 9 initiative wasted.

9 initiative out of 12.
I’ll have a nice time killing D/P thiefs on my power ranger

I think some kind of stealth “counter” is ok in WvW , but this is just terrible design. Used in the right moment, it’s like an “I win”-button, forcing the thief to run away immediately.

Don’t get me wrong, i never played D/P or any stealth heavy build in general (besides from learning how it works etc.), because i think stealth istn’s a fun mechanic to fight with or against, but that’s just my personal opinion.

Sure, it won’t be the end of the world, since “Sic’em!” will not be used too often, but the design is still terrible.

As someone mentioned before, the skill should just make the invisible thief visible for the ranger (or any other players), but it should not apply the revealed debuff.
The duration could then also be increased. 8 seconds maybe? A stealthed thief wich is visible will still be extremely vulnerable and he will not be any thread, beacause nobody would let him backstab, but it wouldn’t be such a hard counter.

Any ranger worth a single copper will use it, it will counter all stealth usage at low hp as a last line of defense for thieves no matter what the build.
Anyone with even half a brain will use it when the thief is at about 30% hp and it will next to always ensure the kill, especially in spvp focus fire situations this will be a major problem.
It will also prevent shadow refuge (or mass invisibility) from being used to save downed team mates, it will make downed 3 for thieves and the mesmer downed invisibility and it`s clone totally useless, the implications are far more severe than any of the previous posts indicate.
As a thief I do not like this at all, on the other hand this might just be the last straw for rangers who are otherwise completely usless.

I just wonder what the counter to all the invunerabilities in the game could be since everything needs a hardcounter…

Good luck rangers, you will need it, once the number of thieves drops (and it will) you will be useless again.

Terrahero.9358:

evilapprentice.6379:

Really Anet?

It’s bad enough you’ve introduced a hard counter to an entire traitline and class mechanic for people too lazy to L2P, but it’s completely unavoidable (seeing as thieves can’t go immune or block) as well?

I can’t wait for my unavoidable hard counters to other classes – here are some suggestions for you

- scorpion wire ignores block/dodge and removes all adrenaline
- Needle trap ignores block/dodge and despawns ranger pet and puts them on a 4s CD
- Signet of Shadows ignores block/dodge, knocks necro’s out of DS and locks it for 4s.

Stop me when I’ve come up with a suggestion you like…

Stealth is not your class mechanic. There are far more severe, more abundant and worst counters to other professions entire traitlines.

Seriously, this is the only counter to stealth and it basicly just gives you revealed. Its on a 40second cooldown.
Lets talk about how abusive Larcenous strike is. How easily that can shut down anyone build for boons. That is a counter.

When other people can spam Revealed on you over and over, then i might be interested in hearing your complaints.

THIS IS THE PROBLEM

all of you kittens would be much happier to absolutely break a class rather than make meaningful adjustments. And you would not be interested in hearing complaints once the thief profession was broken; it is not in your character to adopt the perspectives of others

evilapprentice.6379:

kiwituatara.6053:

evilapprentice.6379:

kiwituatara.6053:

Most rangers wont be running sic em anyways. No worries~

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

Relax. The amount of stealth on some thief builds are ridiculous. Its pretty much a flawed counter for a flawed concept. ~shrug

The caps are to be clear – when you see the same nonsensical response multiple times, you want to be clear.

“Stealth is flawed” is your opinion, and not a provable fact. An ability that can’t be avoided which negates up to 42% of spent trait points while also locking a class out of 33% of its class mechanics is provably flawed – there isn’t another attack in this game that has a comparable effect. It can’t be dodged (like every other attack in the game), it can’t be broken (Like stuns) or cleansed (like condi’s) once it hits – it’s literally removes skill from the equation for 4s. The fact that we’re talking about stealth is irrelevant – any attack with those criteria would be stupid.

If stealth is a problem, have sic-em make thieves visible while in stealth for 4 seconds – that way you’re not locking the class out of up to 30 trait points and their stealth attacks, while satisfying the biggest complaint about stealth (“Where did he go?”). I’m fine with counters to stealth – I disagree that they’re needed, but it’s not inherently flawed to attempt to counter stealth. It is inherently flawed to due it in such a heavy handed, poorly implemented manner, especially when my suggestion is infinitely better (AND achievable – there was a recently fixed bug that made thieves appear in full view on their own screens while in stealth, which means we know the game engine can handle rendering a stealthed thief visible while still gaining the trait/attack benefits of stealth)

Was the stealth animation bug fixed ? Im still being rendered as not stealthed in my screen a lot. Which fks me over badly… Some kitten told me to l2p and watch for revealed debuff…well… make it larger and movable !

Terrahero.9358:

Stealth is not your class mechanic. There are far more severe, more abundant and worst counters to other professions entire traitlines.

Go tell that to the designers, who designed thief weapons with special stealth attacks, and the class in general with unparalleled access to stealth. It’s clearly a class mechnic.
Please also go ahead and point out those clear, worse counters to entire traitlines as well, because just saying things doesn’t make them so.

Seriously, this is the only counter to stealth and it basicly just gives you revealed. Its on a 40second cooldown.
Lets talk about how abusive Larcenous strike is. How easily that can shut down anyone build for boons. That is a counter.

When LS can’t be dodged, we’ll compare the two.

When other people can spam Revealed on you over and over, then i might be interested in hearing your complaints.

Why wait until then, when we can nip the problem in the bud now?

Mepheles.2087:

Complaining about an ability that will most likely never be used, and even it does, it’s 4s on a 40s CD, which however does not negate the thief from dodging, shadowstepping away, blinding the Ranger, stunning the ranger, LoSing the ranger, outright killing the ranger, etc…. But you will counter with the same bull crap, “Waah, it’s not the fact that no one will use it, it’s the principle design that allowed, yadda yadda…” THE FACT IS…. This trait is extremely NICHE, and you will probably never see it used if at all and complaining about it is nothing short of ridiculous ranting that has no basis whatsoever.

Ok, for the sake of argument, I’ll agree with you. Sic Em probably won’t be used (in its current form). So let’s discuss what my point actually is

A) My problem isn’t with Sic Em specifically, its with the design process that brought about the changes to Sic Em. No one at Anet thought it was silly to put a skill in the game that was completely undodgeable, completely countered a class mechanic, and potentially completely counters all the benefits associated with 30 trait points. It follows the very poor precedent set by anti stealth traps in WvW, which is the point of my argument, not “Wah, Sic em is OP”. It removes all skill from the equation for 4s because it cant be dodged, cleansed, or countered by a build that relies on stealth.

B) Since we agree that Sic Em probably isn’t good enough to be slotted right now, how about we look to the future? Eventually, Anet is going to notice that the bump they gave to Sic Em didn’t make it playable, and give it another bump. Or maybe some BM changes will suddenly make taking Sic Em worth it. Why wait until then to address what is clearly bad design?

Ryan.8367:

evilapprentice.6379:

Kaizer.7135:

A hard counter is better than no counter at all, and whoop-de-doo, 4 second reveal isn’t going to get you killed unless you suck at Thief.

Please read all the other posts that have said this.

The CD, the length of the effect, whether or not rangers run it – NONE OF THAT CHANGES THE FACT THAT AN UNAVOIDABLE HARD COUNTER TO UP TO 42% OF CLASSES TRAIT POINTS AS WELL AS 33% OF THEIR CLASS MECHANICS IS STUPID DESIGN. It’s following on the poor precedent set by anti-stealth traps in Wvw (Like I said would happen when they announced anti-stealth traps). It’s lazy and it removes skill from the equation, because it can’t be avoided.

Just fyi, you guys get unavoidable CND’s on our pets that can’t dodge too. I guess abusing bad design only works one way.

If you’d like to make a case that pets that you chose to bring to the fight (Excluding Ranger pets, since they can’t choose to not bring their pet) are too easy to CnD, please do so, only elsewhere. It has no bearing on this conversation.

Being able to CnD a pet that can’t dodge is in no way comparable to an undodgeable, uncleansable hard counter to stealth, because a thief going stealth off your pet doesn’t have the potential to negate 30 trait points and part of your class mechanics.

Ryan.8367:

No, but getting a free CND off on ranger pets yields all the rewards of 30 in SA. It’s your case it’s just flipped around. There’s a reason why CND has a high initiative cost, it yields a big reward – it’s supposed to be a risk in terms of getting off as you need to usually get it off on a target that can dodge it (it does have an obvious animation for a reason) , in the case for ranger pets, there isn’t one. It’s guaranteed. That’s all.

Good point there, unfortunately “Sic’em!” will crush the D/P set more than the D/D set.