Guild Wars 2

I don’t mean for this to sound smarmy, but the fix for P/P is both simple and obvious.

The problem lies in the inequality between Vital Shot and Unload. Because Unload does massively more DPS than Vital Shot, you are forced to dump all your resources into Unload to avoid cratering your DPS. Apart from being burst-oriented and not sustainable over long periods, this also has the effect of negating any potential utility the set offers because you stay perpetually Initiative starved just trying to maintain a healthy DPS level (and it’s a boring spam-fest).

Vital Shot needs a significant buff so that’s it’s only very slightly weaker than Unload. This changes Unload from being a spam-necessity to a tactical option on an equal playing field with the set’s other skills. This has the side effect of making the set’s utility actually usable because you aren’t forced to reserve all of your Initiative for pure DPS.

Ricochet needs reworked also, and Body Shot probably does too, but Vital Shot is a hugely disproportionate part of why P/P is broken.

P/P has a ton of problems.
1) Confused purpose – Is it a Conditions damage set, as Vital shot would imply? Is it a direct damage set, as Unload would imply? It is a joke of a set, as body shot might imply?
2)Complete lack of mobility/mobility hindrance – The set brings nothing in terms of mobility or mobility hindrance. No teleporting or evading or vigor or endurance regen or swiftness for you, no chill or cripple or immobilize or KD to use on your opponents.
3)No access to a thiefs normal defensive arsenal – With no access to stealth AND no mobility, the weaponset has absolutely nothing defensive in its toolset. Thieves cannot soak damage like other classes – without a weaponset based way to avoid damage, you’re a sitting duck.

Fixes
For 1) Decide what P/P is going to be – a conditions weaponset or a Direct damage weaponset. Change the appropriate skill, and fix body shot to a useful skill in that new purpose.
For 2) Short duration Swiftness on #1 #2 or #3 is probably the best bet – cripple or chill would clash with P/D #4, and immob would be too hard to balance (either UP or OP depending on duration and spammability). Basically, if you’re duking it out with pistols, you should have perma-swiftness. once you stop actively firing at a target, swiftness fades quickly.
For 3)Some way to evade damage that’s already compatible with how thieves are designed – some evasiveness added to moves, high uptime vigor easily accessible via the weaponset, stealth…something.

I’ve avoided making super-specific recommendations because it always leads to abandonment of purpose – people start fine tuning your idea, calling it OP, UP, proposing their own ideas and so on and so on… we don’t need that now. We need Anet to finally acknowledge that P/P is complete garbage, and very general idea’s they can use as a jumping off point, leave the specifics to them.

I’d be using p/p again if ANet changed vital shot to a combo finishing jump so I could stealth from BP.

evilapprentice.6379:

P/P has a ton of problems.
1) Confused purpose – Is it a Conditions damage set, as Vital shot would imply? Is it a direct damage set, as Unload would imply? It is a joke of a set, as body shot might imply?
2)Complete lack of mobility/mobility hindrance – The set brings nothing in terms of mobility or mobility hindrance. No teleporting or evading or vigor or endurance regen or swiftness for you, no chill or cripple or immobilize or KD to use on your opponents.
3)No access to a thiefs normal defensive arsenal – With no access to stealth AND no mobility, the weaponset has absolutely nothing defensive in its toolset. Thieves cannot soak damage like other classes – without a weaponset based way to avoid damage, you’re a sitting duck.

Fixes
For 1) Decide what P/P is going to be – a conditions weaponset or a Direct damage weaponset. Change the appropriate skill, and fix body shot to a useful skill in that new purpose.
For 2) Short duration Swiftness on #1 #2 or #3 is probably the best bet – cripple or chill would clash with P/D #4, and immob would be too hard to balance (either UP or OP depending on duration and spammability). Basically, if you’re duking it out with pistols, you should have perma-swiftness. once you stop actively firing at a target, swiftness fades quickly.
For 3)Some way to evade damage that’s already compatible with how thieves are designed – some evasiveness added to moves, high uptime vigor easily accessible via the weaponset, stealth…something.

I’ve avoided making super-specific recommendations because it always leads to abandonment of purpose – people start fine tuning your idea, calling it OP, UP, proposing their own ideas and so on and so on… we don’t need that now. We need Anet to finally acknowledge that P/P is complete garbage, and very general idea’s they can use as a jumping off point, leave the specifics to them.

That’s the thing though – reread my initial post. Even if there are other things that could stand some retuning (such as Body Shot and Ricochet) – P/P is garbage for exactly one reason, and that reason is that Vital Shot does inadequate DPS, which screws up the playability of every other skill in the set.

Broken record and unfortunately I think you’re ending up on the same note as Jon Peters and it isn’t working.

We are looking into this. I actually think P/P has a lot of utility. Blind field, daze, vuln stacking. However damage is a bit low. We are making some headway here in the12/14 build so be patient for one more week.

Jon

Yes auto attacks are important to give you dmg without spending your ini and I do feel that VS underperforms in this situation in comparison to any other thief auto attack/

However the set itself is messed up which is why it doesn’t flow.
Daggers and Sword have powerful auto attacks, but Dagger does not have a great reliance on it’s because it for better or worse puts a lot of emphasis on Backstab and HS. Most of daggers damage is heavily dependant on ini despite the strength of it’s auto.
Shortbow’s auto was actually carrying quite a lot of weight on it’s shoulders tho you’ve said otherwise but every one of it’s abilities has significant use, fits with the profession vision, and the kit offers meaningful advantages to survivalbility at ranged.

If P/P is an all or nothing set abstract from the rest of the thief style with no mobility and no stealth, then it falls flat not just because of Vital shot but because in general it’s mediocre at “all or nothing” given it’s lack of defense and the opportunity cost of its skills for what they do.

If P/P should fall in with the thief style then it straight up flops because again pretty much nothing that is the thief.

As it is your emphasis is on VS, which only gives it primarily something to do while not Unloading, as that’s basically all it wants to do as far as Ini goes because BS is weak and BP does not offer it much relative to where it wants to be and it’s defensive needs despite it being a relatively decent skill.
Sneak attack is strong, in some ways absurdly so but it has limited access to it (for good reason).

Even if you buff VS because of the way the skills themselves are your options remain basically to Spam 3 and hit 4 for an interrupt every once in awhile.
It’s got 3 usable skills, it’s messed up just like P/D and D/D and people don’t acknowledge how those weapon sets just aren’t living up to where they should be when P/D ignores 2, 4 and often 3 except the rarest of situations and D/D typically ignores 3,4 and even it’s 1, or opts for focusing primarily on 3 and giving little for everything else Lol wot :o.

VS should be stronger, but it’s not “the” fix for P/ in general.
That P/X is lacking and suffering from not having meaningful options other than funneling itself into either 3-1 in P/P or 5-1 in P/D. Buffing VS won’t fix their linearity at the end of the day which I think needs to be emphasized because they simply don’t have much else to do other than 3 or 5.

Pretty much agree with Evilapprentice but eh will say shouldn’t even worry about conflicting with P/D at this point.
It isn’t using 2, it isn’t using 4.
If 2 and 4 conflict who cares.
If 2 and 3 conflict it’s not using it they’re heavily condi CC’d and can’t justify the CnD that they’d normally just do irregardless of the threat and after the Mug change in a berserker set Shadow strike can’t even pretend that it can spike either.

P/x is broke. Caltrops is a bandaid for P/D to hide it, but you’ve said as much before Einlanzer.

Peters said P/P has a lot of utility but a fair bit of it is useless and that’s the problem. It’s power may be wanting but the utility isn’t very practical.
BP is a single shot blind at the range P/P wants to be, at best it’s a defense against melee that is very easily remedied by the fact that all melee can get around it, and that P/P unlike S/P and D/P is not putting out that kind of pressure to go along with BP and make it a strong use of ini most of the time for defense. You’re better off weapon swapping 99% of the time. Utility flop here. Vital shot being stronger would allow P/P to put out better pressure in BP so it would help, however unlike S/P and D/P P/P does not really have other defenses in the form of the amazing Inf strike, their dual skills or even heartseeker.

People did the calc on Body shot, you can figure out when it’s better to do than Unload. Generally in situations everyone cares about. It’s not, crap utility.
So the two utility skills pretty much don’t matter so all you’re left with is headshot, Unload and Vital shot. These 3 abilities have to carry the entire weapon set.
Absolutely ridiculous and if P/P does function off just these alone it’s just a testament to how they had to make individual skills overpowered to make up for the fact that the weapon is heinously linear and have it balanced knowing that.

auto attack needs to b on par or it wont matter

Einlanzer.1627:

That’s the thing though – reread my initial post. Even if there are other things that could stand some retuning (such as Body Shot and Ricochet) – P/P is garbage for exactly one reason, and that reason is that Vital Shot does inadequate DPS, which screws up the playability of every other skill in the set.

You’re making the assumption that Anet wants to make P/P a direct damage set – we currently have no idea what Anets initial vision for P/P was, because its so kittening awful and disjointed.

In addition, fixing the damage does almost nothing for P/P – it’ll certainly be less kittenty, but now you’re just a slightly dangerous sitting duck. It promotes people to focus on that 1 aspect, and neglects all the other problems with P/P – if we don’t address all the issues simultaneously, it will remain a kittenty weaponset for longer as Anet addresses issues piecemeal instead of altogether.

ensoriki.5789:

VS should be stronger, but it’s not “the” fix for P/ in general.

Yes it is. I honestly don’t know how it could be made more clear. I’m not saying P/P would be perfect, but it would not be altogether broken like it is now. It is the single most impacting change they could possibly make to the set.

How is it not obvious that Thief weapons HAVE to be set up so that #1 skill does almost comparable DPS to any of the other skills due to the way our resource mechanic works?

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

That’s the thing though – reread my initial post. Even if there are other things that could stand some retuning (such as Body Shot and Ricochet) – P/P is garbage for exactly one reason, and that reason is that Vital Shot does inadequate DPS, which screws up the playability of every other skill in the set.

You’re making the assumption that Anet wants to make P/P a direct damage set – we currently have no idea what Anets initial vision for P/P was, because its so kittening awful and disjointed.

In addition, fixing the damage does almost nothing for P/P – it’ll certainly be less kittenty, but now you’re just a slightly dangerous sitting duck. It promotes people to focus on that 1 aspect, and neglects all the other problems with P/P – if we don’t address all the issues simultaneously, it will remain a kittenty weaponset for longer as Anet addresses issues piecemeal instead of altogether.

No, it’s not even about the damage. The the point is that you are no longer a sitting duck because you have the Initiative to spend on Black Powder and Head Shot without obliterating your DPS. Not perfect, perhaps, but a vast, vast improvement on what you have currently.

I will repeat it ad nasuem: Vital Shot’s weakness is by far the single biggest contributor to P/P being broken. Sure, there are other things that can and probably should be addressed, but not until after they fix the issue causing you to spam one particular skill over and over while draining your initiative to even be mildly effective.

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

That’s the thing though – reread my initial post. Even if there are other things that could stand some retuning (such as Body Shot and Ricochet) – P/P is garbage for exactly one reason, and that reason is that Vital Shot does inadequate DPS, which screws up the playability of every other skill in the set.

You’re making the assumption that Anet wants to make P/P a direct damage set – we currently have no idea what Anets initial vision for P/P was, because its so kittening awful and disjointed.

In addition, fixing the damage does almost nothing for P/P – it’ll certainly be less kittenty, but now you’re just a slightly dangerous sitting duck. It promotes people to focus on that 1 aspect, and neglects all the other problems with P/P – if we don’t address all the issues simultaneously, it will remain a kittenty weaponset for longer as Anet addresses issues piecemeal instead of altogether.

No, the point is that you are no longer a sitting duck because you have the Initiative to spend on Black Powder and Head Shot without obliterating your DPS. Not perfect, perhaps, but a vast, vast improvement on what you have currently.

I will repeat it ad nasuem: Vital Shot’s weakness is by far the single biggest contributor to P/P being broken.

And I will continue to disagree – Without addressing the sets utter lack of mobility, you’ll be a sitting duck. Even if you’ve got great damage and leftover init for BP and HS, the second someone decides you’re worth targeting, you might as well kiss your kitten goodbye – BP and HS aren’t going to save you if your weapon set offers nothing in the way of thief-style escapes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying your point isn’t valid, I’m just saying All the issues need to be addressed ASAP, not just some. If they buffed vital shot the way you want it today, the spec would be kitten by the end of the week when people learned that although your new damage is scary, you’re still totally reliant on utilities to avoid getting eaten alive.

Einlanzer.1627:

ensoriki.5789:

VS should be stronger, but it’s not “the” fix for P/ in general.

Yes it is. I honestly don’t know how it could be made more clear. I’m not saying P/P would be perfect, but it would not be altogether broken like it is now. It is the single most impacting change they could possibly make to the set.

How is it not obvious that Thief weapons HAVE to be set up so that #1 skill does almost comparable DPS to any of the other skills due to the way our resource mechanic works?

Generally auto attacks have to be significant damage for all professions. With few exceptions.
HOWEVER and I’ve detailed it before in the previous post to an extent.
You feel that the auto being strong enough gives reason to use the ini skills tactically this more or less true for S/x, D/x and SB.
However P/P doesn’t have skills that are powerful enough to use tactically, 100% srs.
D/D is generally ini based, not auto attack based despite the power of it’s auto. It’s power really comes from ini skills and very little from it’s auto. The opposite is true for Sword which uses the auto strongly in co-ordination with it’s other skills (other than dancing dagger :P). However the skills are far more worth using than P/P even when they have the same bloody offhand they’re worth more on a D/ or S/.

Unload is straight pure damage, nothing else, their is no evade, no stun, no bleed it’s straight damage. With that in mind it’s going to be stronger than VS or it’s going to be mostly insignificant since it offers zero utility other than being a combo finisher.

Until the ini skills themselves are worth tactifully using, P/P will be a joke.

Like I said before.
If it’s an all or nothing set than it flops because it’s skills aren’t strong enough for the cost.
If it’s something that is supposed to fit in with the thief style than it flops.
Ini about opportunity cost. BS is rarely worth it. BP isn’t worth it. Headshot simply can’t carry it because even Unload loses the threat once they turn to you, because you are a duck and simply knowing that is enough to force YOU into defensive at which quite arguably there is few if any sets in the game which are worse.

Like I said before, I believe VS is too weak.
It’s not the fundamental issue here.
When taking Shortbow I knew trickshot was giving me in my glass builds decent damage, and aoe pressure. The single target dmg wasn’t phenomenal but it was adequete and once more foes came up it scaled well for applying pressure. Which meant I was free to use CB’s, Distracting shots, IA or Chocking gas for my own needs.
However even if VS does 10k dmg a shot, it just means I’d use VS and not the other skills except maybe Head shot because head shot is the only utility skill on that entire bar that really works with the kit and it’s purpose.
If VS did hell even 1.5k, or 2k still wouldnt use BS. If I was using BS it meant the damage increase on VS was just that significant and I’d stop using Unload instead.
2 sucks.
5 just doesn’t mesh properly with the kit.
3 is pure raw damage at a slow rateand as such to be significant has to be significantly stronger than VS or it’ll be straight up useless.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

That’s the thing though – reread my initial post. Even if there are other things that could stand some retuning (such as Body Shot and Ricochet) – P/P is garbage for exactly one reason, and that reason is that Vital Shot does inadequate DPS, which screws up the playability of every other skill in the set.

You’re making the assumption that Anet wants to make P/P a direct damage set – we currently have no idea what Anets initial vision for P/P was, because its so kittening awful and disjointed.

In addition, fixing the damage does almost nothing for P/P – it’ll certainly be less kittenty, but now you’re just a slightly dangerous sitting duck. It promotes people to focus on that 1 aspect, and neglects all the other problems with P/P – if we don’t address all the issues simultaneously, it will remain a kittenty weaponset for longer as Anet addresses issues piecemeal instead of altogether.

No, the point is that you are no longer a sitting duck because you have the Initiative to spend on Black Powder and Head Shot without obliterating your DPS. Not perfect, perhaps, but a vast, vast improvement on what you have currently.

I will repeat it ad nasuem: Vital Shot’s weakness is by far the single biggest contributor to P/P being broken.

And I will continue to disagree – Without addressing the sets utter lack of mobility, you’ll be a sitting duck. Even if you’ve got great damage and leftover init for BP and HS, the second someone decides you’re worth targeting, you might as well kiss your kitten goodbye – BP and HS aren’t going to save you if your weapon set offers nothing in the way of thief-style escapes.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying your point isn’t valid, I’m just saying All the issues need to be addressed ASAP, not just some. If they buffed vital shot the way you want it today, the spec would be kitten by the end of the week when people learned that although your new damage is scary, you’re still totally reliant on utilities to avoid getting eaten alive.

Once again, it has nothing to do with damage. It’s not that your new damage is scary (even though both Vital Shot and Unload need a modest damage buff), it’s that you now are able to both do damage AND use your defensive utilities at the same time gasp.

Black Powder and Head Shot have suddenly become virtually spammable because you are no longer overly-reliant on the damage from Unload when backed into a corner. Both of you seem to be underestimating or overlooking how much that does for the usability of the set, especially when combined with utility skills. That’s obviously how it’s intended to work. It currently doesn’t work that way because if you try to benefit from either of those skills your DPS drops to nothing and it isn’t worth the sacrifice most of the time.

In essence, the reason the set is broken is because its usefulness is relegated to only 1 skill – Unload. The reason it’s pigeon-holed that way is not because it has useless utility, it’s because Vital Shot is too weak to allow you to use any of its utility. I will not disagree that there are other problems that could stand to be addressed (Ricochet being one of the biggest), but they are individually not nearly as egregious as this one.

Einlanzer.1627:

Once again, it has nothing to do with damage. It’s not that your new damage is scary, it’s that you now are able to both do damage AND use your defensive utilities at the same time gasp.

Black Powder and Head Shot have suddenly become virtually spammable because you are no longer overly-reliant on the damage from Unload when backed into a corner. You seem to be underestimating or overlooking what that adds to the set, especially when combined with utility skills.

You’re vastly overestimating how good BP and HS are in P/P (even with your fixed VS). Any player running range weapon laughs at you spending 6 init for BP. HS is good for interrupting big skills, but only buys you time for 1 vital shot if you’re using it as a defensive tool to prevent a player from using any skills. Those skills cost 6 and 4 init respectively, so “virtually spammable” isn’t an accurate description. If you hit BP Once and Hs once in a 3 second period you probably (spec dependant, of course) Don’t have the init for an unload, or another BP.

Any ranged focus class build would still eat you alive. A D/P thief would wreck you. Mesmers would wreck you. Heck, I fail to see how this proposal would stop a GS/Rifle warrior from wrecking you. You have 900 range and no gap openers outside of utilities – every class in the game has a way to either close a 900 gap in an instant, or the range and tools to still hit you from outside your range.

Einlanzer.1627:

In essence, the reason the set is broken is because its usefulness is relegated to only 1 skill – Unload.

Thank you based God.
Which is basically what has been said.
P/P is 3-1 spam
P/D 5-1 spam
D/D 5-1 with some 2 thrown in there or, 3 spam in a bleed spec.
All you are changing is the significance of the 3-1 spam.

Like I said before a stornger VS increases the value of BP indirectly by increasing your pressure HOWEVER. As a ranged kit, BP loses significance on P/P especially because by it’s nature you’re not in range to do anything other then get a 1 off blind. For that you’re better off the majority of the time just using headshot for a cheaper cost, unless there is stability.
When put against someone in melee range, you’re going to get obliterated regardless because you are a duck. You can’t move from BP since it’s your only real defense. BP just wants you to remain a duck because you can’t leave it’s range and simultaneously to get use out of it, you need to be in it’s range because of it being a pbaoe.
Vital shot can’t save you. Essentially your solution is make Vital shot so strong that it can start carrying an otherwise terrible set.
But it’s still just going to get pushed into using Unload more, because the utility otherwise isn’t worth using. Headshot is typically a heal interrupt though it has multi purpose, and to bring that about you need to do significant damage. If VS and Unload conflict in damage there is little point in Unload as it has no utility purpose.

In other words you’d be phasing Unload out of the ONE purpose it has, which is damage.
VS and Unload can’t be on the same level. There is a reason you see on the rangers longbow that Long shot and Rapidfire are not comparable.
Volley and Bleeding shot on warrior? Not comparable.
The Raw damage skill has nothing else going for it other than raw damage so it has to excel specifically at that.
VS always has to noticeably weaker than Unload to make Unload meaningful and otherwise It just means shift turns over to Body shot, to drop a little extra 5% as a steroid and phase out Unload. The only other way it works is if Unload is supportive too like the Rangers shortbow where it’s auto is predominant and everything else is more or less simply supportive of that.

The shortbow worked for many thieves because it did adequete though somewhat lackluster 1v1 damage, but it was strong enough especially without desiring traiting or having to wait seconds for results, and all of its 4 ini skills are useful.
2 are really useful on P/P and the utility daze gets let down by P/P not being able to cause situations where it’s desired generally except against glass cannons who will generally live long enough to turn around and throw P/P Immediately into another weapon set because it’s defenses within the kit are possibly the worst in the game.

I tried playing P/P. 1) Vital shot was underperforming, certainly but if anyone even looked at me, I said to hell with that and switched my weapon immediately if I tried to battle it out I spent way too much time trying to defend myself than being able to apply any pressure because the other issue with this whole utility thing?

The 2 “defense” skills you have?
They do fart for damage.

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

evilapprentice.6379:

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

I never said it will fix all of P/P’s problems. I said that it is the single most major reason why P/P is broken.

In other words, if they only make one simple tweak to P/P, this is by far the best one they could make.

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

I never said it will fix all of P/P’s problems. I said that it is the single most major reason why P/P is broken.

In other words, if they only make one simple tweak to P/P, this is by far the best one they could make.

Turning 10 tons of dog crap into 1 ton of dog crap doesn’t help you when your house smells like dog crap.

Making this 1 change would of course make P/P better because it’s in such a sad state nearly anything would make it better. It still wouldn’t be worth using though. Why bother making changes when it’s still going to be worthless in the end?

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

I never said it will fix all of P/P’s problems. I said that it is the single most major reason why P/P is broken.

In other words, if they only make one simple tweak to P/P, this is by far the best one they could make.

Turning 10 tons of dog crap into 1 ton of dog crap doesn’t help you when your house smells like dog crap.

Making this 1 change would of course make P/P better because it’s in such a sad state nearly anything would make it better. It still wouldn’t be worth using though. Why bother making changes when it’s still going to be worthless in the end?

Well, it’s a change that needs to happen regardless of what other changes may or may not happen, that’s the key idea to capture here.

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

I never said it will fix all of P/P’s problems. I said that it is the single most major reason why P/P is broken.

In other words, if they only make one simple tweak to P/P, this is by far the best one they could make.

Turning 10 tons of dog crap into 1 ton of dog crap doesn’t help you when your house smells like dog crap.

Making this 1 change would of course make P/P better because it’s in such a sad state nearly anything would make it better. It still wouldn’t be worth using though. Why bother making changes when it’s still going to be worthless in the end?

Well, it’s a change that needs to happen regardless of what other changes may or may not happen, that’s the key idea to capture here.

Updating a Weaponset that needs a massive amount of adjustment piece by piece is a bad idea.
A) It’s going to draw ire from the community. “Why spend time and resources fixing 1 piece of a set that STILL SUCKS when you’re done with it? Just fix it all or don’t bother” etc etc…
B) What if the fixes don’t mesh with later fixes? They buff VS damage, then they buff something else, then they realize they’ve painted themselves into a corner because they’re out of logical changes they can make to other skills because they didn’t design All the changes at the same time.

They need to re-envision how they want P/P to work, Completely, before doing any sort of work. It’s acceptable to deliver the changes one by one, but they need to figure out how every ability in P/P is going to interact with every other ability, commit to that design, then start implementing. Making 1 change without taking into consideration Any of the other changes that P/P needs is a very bad idea from a design standpoint.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

evilapprentice.6379:

This, btw, is exactly what my initial response was talking about – instead of bringing to light and discussing the myriad of issues with P/P in a general sense, we’ve gone into a long winded discussion of why we disagree with your opinion that this one specific change will fix all of P/P’s problems.

I never said it will fix all of P/P’s problems. I said that it is the single most major reason why P/P is broken.

In other words, if they only make one simple tweak to P/P, this is by far the best one they could make.

Turning 10 tons of dog crap into 1 ton of dog crap doesn’t help you when your house smells like dog crap.

Making this 1 change would of course make P/P better because it’s in such a sad state nearly anything would make it better. It still wouldn’t be worth using though. Why bother making changes when it’s still going to be worthless in the end?

Well, it’s a change that needs to happen regardless of what other changes may or may not happen, that’s the key idea to capture here.

Updating a Weaponset that needs a massive amount of adjustment piece by piece is a bad idea.
A) It’s going to draw ire from the community. “Why spend time and resources fixing 1 piece of a set that STILL SUCKS when you’re done with it? Just fix it all or don’t bother” etc etc…
B) What if the fixes don’t mesh with later fixes? They buff VS damage, then they buff something else, then they realize they’ve painted themselves into a corner because they’re out of logical changes they can make to other skills because they didn’t design All the changes at the same time.

They need to re-envision how they want P/P to work, Completely, before doing any sort of work. It’s acceptable to deliver the changes one by one, but they need to figure out how every ability in P/P is going to interact with every other ability, commit to that design, then start implementing. Making 1 change without taking into consideration Any of the other changes that P/P needs is a very bad idea from a design standpoint.

I would generally agree with this actually, it’s just that I I don’t think P/P is as bad in concept as you seem to think it is, only in execution. I don’t feel like it needs as much of a sweeping overhaul as you do, which is why I tend to target this one particularly egregious issue in hopes that other people will notice what a problem it is.

I’ve been maining a P/P in wvw since long before the buff to pistol mastery. I chose to go with full evasion and zero stealth in the build, and even though I know I’m handicapping myself with my weapon/skill choices, it’s been way more fun to play my evasive gunslinger than any of my other four level 80 characters. I still do quite well with it despite its shortcomings and can hold my own just fine in 1vX situations.

All I really want is a faster rate of fire on Vital Shot and for Body Shot to be re-worked into either a lunging cone attack (Spray’n’Pray) or a stationary evasive aoe (Gun-kata, for those familiar with the movie Equilibrium). I’m more than happy with everything else in the set because it synergizes well with a kiting, evasive play-style.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

I’ve been maining a P/P in wvw since long before the buff to pistol mastery. I chose to go with full evasion and zero stealth in the build, and even though I know I’m handicapping myself with my weapon/skill choices, it’s been way more fun to play my evasive gunslinger than any of my other four level 80 characters. I still do quite well with it despite its shortcomings and can hold my own just fine in 1vX situations.

All I really want is a faster rate of fire on Vital Shot and for Body Shot to be re-worked into either a lunging cone attack (Spray’n’Pray) or a stationary evasive aoe (Gun-kata, for those familiar with the movie Equilibrium). I’m more than happy with everything else in the set because it synergizes well with a kiting, evasive play-style.

Please don’t take this as insulting, because I’m just going to be blunt here. WvW <> sPvP. Especially tournaments.

Furthermore, P/P has literally nothing that synergizes, in the slightest, with a “Kiting, evasive play-style”. Sword Mainhand (S/D In particular) does that with its teleports (and in S/D’s case FS). D/D condi does that with DB and to some extent DD. SHbow certainly supports a “kiting, evasive play-style” with Inf arrow and disabling shot, and to a lesser extent, choking gas and cluster bomb (our only range 1200 weapon set attack)

Unload is a 1.75s cast you can’t dodge or evade during. There are no snares or roots in P/P, and no personal speed boosts. No teleports, no retreats, no immobilize, no stuns. It’s only got 900 range.

I’m glad you have fun with it, and that it works for you – but that doesnt change the fact that its an underpowered, broken set in much need of some significant attention.

evilapprentice.6379:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

I’ve been maining a P/P in wvw since long before the buff to pistol mastery. I chose to go with full evasion and zero stealth in the build, and even though I know I’m handicapping myself with my weapon/skill choices, it’s been way more fun to play my evasive gunslinger than any of my other four level 80 characters. I still do quite well with it despite its shortcomings and can hold my own just fine in 1vX situations.

All I really want is a faster rate of fire on Vital Shot and for Body Shot to be re-worked into either a lunging cone attack (Spray’n’Pray) or a stationary evasive aoe (Gun-kata, for those familiar with the movie Equilibrium). I’m more than happy with everything else in the set because it synergizes well with a kiting, evasive play-style.

Please don’t take this as insulting, because I’m just going to be blunt here. WvW <> sPvP. Especially tournaments.

Furthermore, P/P has literally nothing that synergizes, in the slightest, with a “Kiting, evasive play-style”. Sword Mainhand (S/D In particular) does that with its teleports (and in S/D’s case FS). D/D condi does that with DB and to some extent DD. SHbow certainly supports a “kiting, evasive play-style” with Inf arrow and disabling shot, and to a lesser extent, choking gas and cluster bomb (our only range 1200 weapon set attack)

Unload is a 1.75s cast you can’t dodge or evade during. There are no snares or roots in P/P, and no personal speed boosts. No teleports, no retreats, no immobilize, no stuns. It’s only got 900 range.

I’m glad you have fun with it, and that it works for you – but that doesnt change the fact that its an underpowered, broken set in much need of some significant attention.

The fact that YOU aren’t finding success with P/P doesn’t mean that the set needs big, sweeping changes. But hey, if you want to argue to get my weapon set buffed, then by all means do so.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

evilapprentice.6379:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

I’ve been maining a P/P in wvw since long before the buff to pistol mastery. I chose to go with full evasion and zero stealth in the build, and even though I know I’m handicapping myself with my weapon/skill choices, it’s been way more fun to play my evasive gunslinger than any of my other four level 80 characters. I still do quite well with it despite its shortcomings and can hold my own just fine in 1vX situations.

All I really want is a faster rate of fire on Vital Shot and for Body Shot to be re-worked into either a lunging cone attack (Spray’n’Pray) or a stationary evasive aoe (Gun-kata, for those familiar with the movie Equilibrium). I’m more than happy with everything else in the set because it synergizes well with a kiting, evasive play-style.

Please don’t take this as insulting, because I’m just going to be blunt here. WvW <> sPvP. Especially tournaments.

Furthermore, P/P has literally nothing that synergizes, in the slightest, with a “Kiting, evasive play-style”. Sword Mainhand (S/D In particular) does that with its teleports (and in S/D’s case FS). D/D condi does that with DB and to some extent DD. SHbow certainly supports a “kiting, evasive play-style” with Inf arrow and disabling shot, and to a lesser extent, choking gas and cluster bomb (our only range 1200 weapon set attack)

Unload is a 1.75s cast you can’t dodge or evade during. There are no snares or roots in P/P, and no personal speed boosts. No teleports, no retreats, no immobilize, no stuns. It’s only got 900 range.

I’m glad you have fun with it, and that it works for you – but that doesnt change the fact that its an underpowered, broken set in much need of some significant attention.

The fact that YOU aren’t finding success with P/P doesn’t mean that the set needs big, sweeping changes. But hey, if you want to argue to get my weapon set buffed, then by all means do so.

Opinions vary on whether it needs big, sweeping changes (I’m inclined to agree that it doesn’t) but it absolutely, objectively needs some fixes in a few key areas where it’s really not working. Vital Shot is the most significant of those.

If it was just me, you’d have a point. That is not the case however.

Ask any thief on the leaderboards if they run P/P. Hell, ask anyone with a %. Ask any other non-thief player on the leaderboards if they’ve ever faced a dangerous P/P thief in a match. Then ask them if they’ve seen p/p in an organized team. Since the answer will be definitively no (you can check if you’d like, I’m just trying to save you some time), ask the follow up question of why. They’ll echo everything myself and Ensoriki have said.

Einlanzer.1627:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

evilapprentice.6379:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

I’ve been maining a P/P in wvw since long before the buff to pistol mastery. I chose to go with full evasion and zero stealth in the build, and even though I know I’m handicapping myself with my weapon/skill choices, it’s been way more fun to play my evasive gunslinger than any of my other four level 80 characters. I still do quite well with it despite its shortcomings and can hold my own just fine in 1vX situations.

All I really want is a faster rate of fire on Vital Shot and for Body Shot to be re-worked into either a lunging cone attack (Spray’n’Pray) or a stationary evasive aoe (Gun-kata, for those familiar with the movie Equilibrium). I’m more than happy with everything else in the set because it synergizes well with a kiting, evasive play-style.

Please don’t take this as insulting, because I’m just going to be blunt here. WvW <> sPvP. Especially tournaments.

Furthermore, P/P has literally nothing that synergizes, in the slightest, with a “Kiting, evasive play-style”. Sword Mainhand (S/D In particular) does that with its teleports (and in S/D’s case FS). D/D condi does that with DB and to some extent DD. SHbow certainly supports a “kiting, evasive play-style” with Inf arrow and disabling shot, and to a lesser extent, choking gas and cluster bomb (our only range 1200 weapon set attack)

Unload is a 1.75s cast you can’t dodge or evade during. There are no snares or roots in P/P, and no personal speed boosts. No teleports, no retreats, no immobilize, no stuns. It’s only got 900 range.

I’m glad you have fun with it, and that it works for you – but that doesnt change the fact that its an underpowered, broken set in much need of some significant attention.

The fact that YOU aren’t finding success with P/P doesn’t mean that the set needs big, sweeping changes. But hey, if you want to argue to get my weapon set buffed, then by all means do so.

Opinions vary on whether it needs big, sweeping changes (I’m inclined to agree that it doesn’t) but it absolutely, objectively needs some fixes in a few key areas where it’s really not working. Vital Shot is the most significant of those.

You keep pushing the VS aspect. Ensoriki put up a great counter-point. I wont repeat it, but instead, I’ll just pose some scenarios.

What does your VS buff do against any other competent ranged class in the game? How does VS doing more damage (and in turn freeing up more init for things other than Unload) increase effectiveness against a Shbow ranger who has 300 better range AND access to a cripple AND swiftness to ensure he can keep you inside his range, and outside yours…AND a pet to DPS/CC you in the meantime? P/P cant snare or root him…or boost your own speed… or clear conditions, in and of itself.

How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against any flavor of Mesmer?
How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against a Boon spamming/ Heal monster bunker ele?
How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against a bunker guardian?
How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against a D/P thief?
How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against a condi Engi?
How does VS doing more damage increase effectiveness against a GS/Rifle or Longbow Warrior?

I could keep going, but I won’t. Long story short, VS doing more damage doesn’t solve the problem. Ranged classes will still kittening obliterate you (because BP does kitten against them, and HS doesn’t slow them down enough). Any competent melee class will make BP a cost prohibitive measure through extremely simple counter play. Heck, any class with decent AoE will render BP as a useless defensive measure by laying down ground AoE all around your BP. Without additional defensive measures, any buff to VS (short of something that makes it clearly overpowered) will be a band-aid on an axe-wound: Useless.

You have dodge rolls, you have interrupts, you have blinds, you have effective bleed stacking. These things can be used very consistently while also being supplemented by Utility skills, all while not sacrificing too much of your DPS.

It would make a much bigger difference than you keep trying to argue, I promise you.

Einlanzer.1627:

You have dodge rolls, you have interrupts, you have blinds, you have effective bleed stacking. These things can be used very consistently while also being supplemented by Utility skills, all while not sacrificing too much of your DPS.

It would make a much bigger difference than you keep trying to argue, I promise you.

Any spec has dodge rolls, those aren’t restricted to P/P. Any Pistol OH spec has interrupts and blinds, those aren’t restricted to P/P. Rolling with a Pistol mainhand does absolutely nothing to make either better. If you’re arguing VS being a viable DPS alternative to Unload while keeping Unload as a possible DPS ability, then you’re not arguing for the bleed, because they’re mutually exclusive (either your bleed is good or Unload does good damage, not both). Just because you can jury rig a spec into working doesn’t make it good – similar choices with a superior weaponset would result in a MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE spec, and thats a pretty good indicator of how bad P/P is.
So what exactly is it that a boosted VS, and just a boosted VS does (since that’s your entire argument), that elevates it to “the biggest, easiest fix in P/P”.

evilapprentice.6379:

Einlanzer.1627:

You have dodge rolls, you have interrupts, you have blinds, you have effective bleed stacking. These things can be used very consistently while also being supplemented by Utility skills, all while not sacrificing too much of your DPS.

It would make a much bigger difference than you keep trying to argue, I promise you.

Any spec has dodge rolls, those aren’t restricted to P/P. Any Pistol OH spec has interrupts and blinds, those aren’t restricted to P/P. Rolling with a Pistol mainhand does absolutely nothing to make either better. If you’re arguing VS being a viable DPS alternative to Unload while keeping Unload as a possible DPS ability, then you’re not arguing for the bleed, because they’re mutually exclusive (either your bleed is good or Unload does good damage, not both). Just because you can jury rig a spec into working doesn’t make it good – similar choices with a superior weaponset would result in a MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE spec, and thats a pretty good indicator of how bad P/P is.
So what exactly is it that a boosted VS, and just a boosted VS does (since that’s your entire argument), that elevates it to “the biggest, easiest fix in P/P”.

The fact that it would let you use Black Powder, Head Shot, and standard evades without instantly cratering your DPS. Currently, it’s not possible to do any one of those three things, let alone all of them, without doing so. That’s 3 utilities compared to 0.

My main problems with the set are that Unload smash ends up being the optimal but boring and underachieving way to go, and that Black Powder, an amazing skill for melee sets, is completly useless here given how you need to keep moving all the time.

This are 2 possible fix I would do, both related to Body Shot:

- Make BS a spread attack x5, each hits applies 1 vuln (for a max of 5 at close range), and make it so that if you hit with all 5 shots (or even with just 4), the damage/initiative (and /time given how it’s a single shot) is better than Unload (Unload total is still better). This gives you the option to either keep running and Unloading, or risking going into melee range for more damage, which would also give a sense to Black Powder to cover your melee assault while blinding the opponent. You would be able to always decide if you want to be close or far from the target.

BS would also benefit from the same traits that Unload as it would be a multihit skill.

The only problem is that any of both strategies would benefit from Zerker gear, and in both cases you will want to auto-attack as less as possible.

That problem can be ammended with my second option:

- Option B would be a total overhaul of Body Shot (that would be more related to the term “Body Shot” btw): Make the skill a point blank (130 melee range) shot that instead of applying vulnerabilities pushes the opponent (push, not KB, so the foe isn’t interrupted or stunned, you just make him go away some units). Aditionally, instead of a projectile finisher, the skill is a blast finisher, with the blast happening in your current position (it’s a point blank overcharged shot, which generates a splash of powder where it’s fired).

This way the skill covers defense by position (only that instead of making you run from an opponent, it pushes him like other ranged weapons for other professions already do) and in combination with BP would stealth you. This way you can make a Carrion set with P/P, optimize the bleeding on your auto-attack, use BP to blind the opponent, wait for him to waste an attack to optimize the blind, then blast with #2 for stealth, throw your 5 bleeds that will reapply Blind as it’s a 100% combo finisher and avoid a lot of damage while aplying multiple blinds, with high initiative cost but you use some blinds while waiting to recover initiative.

Aditionally P/ becomes a very useful party helper with the blast finisher. It require you to stand on the field unlike cluster bomb, but it would still be a great group support skill even without hitting a target.

In a Zerker build it would still be useful to keep a distance even if you aren’t using the stealth combo, and in group play you have the blast for combos with allies instead of just smashing 3 all the time.

- An extra amend that could be done in both options would be to make each bullet on Unload apply 0.5 seconds of Weakness (4 seconds if you hit with all bullets), so as long as you keep shooting, you’re also working on defense by decreasing your target’s offense, but you need to keep pushing him to keep the weakness.

Move “Vital shot” to #2 and increase the bleed stack to 2-3 3sec bleeds
Move “body shot” to #1

This way P/P can get more vulnerability to increase its dmg, p/d gets more bleeds at the cost of ini and can put some vulnerability to help with condition removers…

lLobo.7960:

Move “Vital shot” to #2 and increase the bleed stack to 2-3 3sec bleeds
Move “body shot” to #1

This way P/P can get more vulnerability to increase its dmg, p/d gets more bleeds at the cost of ini and can put some vulnerability to help with condition removers…

Body Shot was the autoattack during early stages of the game, and Vital Shot was #2 an applied Cripple. Problem is it clashed with /D #4, and with the introduction of Stealth Skills (and I never liked the introduction of them instead of looking for new ways of making it interesting to be honest) it was changed to synergize with Sneak Attack at the cost of lack of synergy on 33333P/P33333. As it is right now, I don’t see both swapping places. P/D would get a big hit loosing bleeds on the autoattack.

In a perfect world without Stealth Attack being the core of most Thief build I would say go for it, and let Carrions spam #2 for bleeds (probably a cone attack of bleeds), but with current mechanics it isn’t going to happen.

For P/P the bleeds are there for the same than in Warrior’s Rifle, to lower the damage scaling of the auto-attack. Neither set is a condition set when you look at the best skills, but the bleed prevents the auto-attack from increasing too much as the damage is split between direct and condition, so you rely on your other skills while waiting for it with the auto-attack. Problem is Warrior’s Rifle is a much better weapon than our P/P set, but I don’t see Vital Shot going away from the auto attack slot for the mentioned reasons.

The perfect solution to make the set viable IMO should be making Body Shot superior and making it have some synergy with Black Powder either by forcing you to stay close or by making it a splash combo like what I said so you could choose to go Carrion instead of Zerker with P/P for some variety, and as I said, a litle bit of Weakness on Unload would make it less boring and more useful for you and the team.

-Dedicate pistol main hand to condition damage (changing #2 and Unload to be more in line)
-Give thieves rifles or longbows to a) increase our limited weapon selection b) ranged direct damage at 1200 at last, hell 900 for all I care as long as we have more options on the field

Or, if they can somehow make a system so that equipping P/P modifies #1’s attributes into a power-focused weapon to better suit #3, that’d be great. Unlikely, but who knows? While we’re at it, this could incorporate body shot into #1 (short duration single stack vulnerability) and remove the bleed outright. Of course, this still calls for a change to the 2nd skill.

-Change Black Powder into a self buff that makes the next X pistol attacks drop smoke fields at your location that lasts 1-2 sec each; and large enough ones that you cannot move completely out of one at combat speed before firing off at least one auto attack.

This would allow one to use Black Powder on the move without completely losing its benefits; and it would help other team members to proc blinds and stealths as well via spreading smoke fields around.

-Change Ricochet to also include an increase to pistol attack range. P/P needs the extra range to be available to make up for having less evasion tools.

-Vital shot needs to not suck; since most p/p attacks cost large amounts of initiative. thematically it should excel in single target damage the way Shortbow Trick Shot excels at multi target damage.

-It would be nice if there were a good reason to use Body Shot at all outside of team focus fire situations; the 100% finisher chance and vulnerability are nice but not enough to make up for the cost/damage deficit p/p has.

-It would be nice if Unload had a use in condition builds.