Guild Wars 2

I have some ideas for some adjustment to thieves. The reason I would like to see some changes is the following. If you exclude the ability to get out of a fight, the thief is quite balanced on the top level of player skill. A good player should be able to face any thief at any time and give that dude still a challange. But on the lower level of the game, thieves are defenetly favoured compared to the other professions imho.

With my thief I win almost any engagments in WvW, because I can choose my engagments and when to engage. Hell I can make my opponent waste their utilities, before I even really comitted to the attack.

However, I have 2 alterations in mind. the 1st would force the thief to skill 30 points in stealth, if he wants to rely on stealth, even on higher skill level. The other one would make stealth less effective on the lower skill level:

• New trait Stealth Focus (Grandmaster major stealth trait):
  This trait comes with another change to stealth itself. If not traited, stealt would basicly work as we know it, but would come with a stealth exhaustion buff (the buff icon would not be visible for opponent, only applies after some seconds in stealth). This stealth exaustion onle fades, if the thief doesn’t stealth for some short time (maybe for 3 secs, so applying only if you attempt to permastealth). If traited Stealth Focus, this stealth exhaustion wouldn’t happen. What stealth exhaustion does: it creates a slight shimer, where the thiev is (similar to how stealth looks like to the theif itself and allies), still granting the chance to see the thief and attack him with AoE. But he can not be targeted directly still. This mechenaic would force the thief to trait that skill and he would’t be able to trait for health regen in stealth, condition remove in stealth and initiative for stealth skill in the same time, so basicly perma stealth would be nerved a bit one or the other way.
• no stealth stacking
  Equal to the many mesmer stealth abilities, the stealth from different sources would not stack (combo finisher counting as the same source). As far as I can see it, the gameplay doesn’t change dramitcly but significantly enough to make theif lass strong on the lower skill levels, creating some balance there.

What do you think? As far as I can see it, higher skill level thieves would be able to somewhat coutneract those changes and still be effective, while lower skilled thieves would suffer a bit giving other low skill players a better chance.

???? no thanks. why do people still not realize that this class has really been overnerfed in the past? what about spvp/tpvp?
thief needs no nerfs. only some buffs.

if u hate “permastealth” so much, just leave this d/p thief alone jumping thru his uberfields. go on, do something useful in wvw.

fyi: your idea would also affect d/d , s/d builds very much, which are not as easy to play as d/p and have no access to permastealth.

I allways saw thief as balanced, before I played them myself. Now that I started playing thief, I realized how easy they have it. It is rediculously easy. I play as S/D and D/P thief and with both I am just wining constantly.

The balance about thief is in many cases a l2p issue, I agree with that. However, it is mostly a l2p issue for the non theives, while the thieves have it very easy from the start. You can not balance a game only on the high levels of player skill, you have to think also about casual players. And here the casual thieves have a significant advantage.

Again, I personally have no problem with theives, I just eat them allive^^, but I consider myself not as a casual player. If theives would start admitting this, we could start talking about some real balancing, that would effect casual players more than the more skilled ones, who usually have more awareness about waht’s happening as the casual ones.

Domey.9804:

fyi: your idea would also affect d/d , s/d builds very much, which are not as easy to play as d/p and have no access to permastealth.

In what way. My S/D thief would not be effected by that. My stealth would trigger the same. Neither stealth axhaustion, nor stealth stacking would be an issue for my S/D thief, except for shadow refuge.

Are you talking about wvw or spvp? Cause thief is the strongest in wvw roaming due to stats and foods and easy stacks off npcs.

Your changes would kill a wide variety of thief builds.

Only viable build would be 1 hit wonder or evade s/d.

What would thieves do in wvw after your nerfs btw? They can’t Zerg, they couldn’t 1v1 after this nerf because we need to stack stealth to deal with certain builds of certain classes.

Clearly, you’ve played 10 hrs on a thief in wvw only and because its strong at roaming you think it needs a nerf.

Try zerging with it, it’s useless compared to anything else.
Try spvp where capping points matters, not just hot joins. Try tournaments. That will give perspective.

Can’t just go to wvw and then post here asking for nerfs because this class is strong in 1 aspect of the game while other areas not so much.

Let’s not even get started on pve …

Yes, s/d would be affected. Can’t use shadow refuge and then HiS for few extra seconds or blinding powder + something else.

Thieves are not easy mode OP.

i made some duels in wvw today. grouped up with the enemy so that he could see me when im in stealth like i see my character (glassy look)

did i win a single time? nope

backstabs are impossible with that kind of “slight adjustment”

oh yea thief is easy mode, maybe try to fight some skilled players not lvl20s in wvw

I am talking about WvW. But you are assuning wrong. I play my thief not that often as my mesmer, agreed, but I didn’t play it just for some hours. I zerged with thief and I roamed with it. Actually zerging with thief is absolutely awesome (and I play also a necro, who is rediculously strong in Zerg fights). All who say thief can not Zerg are plainly wrong. Shortbow is one of the strongest Zerg weapons I have ever seen. I am the one stacking might on my team, or heals together with the players placing the right AoE combo fields on the ground. And short bow can be used as condition, direct dmg or hybrid dmg weapon. It is widely underestimated.

You also seem to missunderstand my stealth exhaustion idea or I didn’t explain it well enough. The exhaustion would only start after some seconds in stealth. Let’s say 4 seconds and will last for 3 after you left stealth. So the usual CnD and attack or hide in shadows wouldn’t even be effected. Only if you chain up stealth, you would get the shimering (what they might have to make a bit less seeable, I admit, for the purpose of balance). So both, the stacking of stealth (or the non stacking) and the stealth exhaustion do effect only players, who wanna go for a long period of stealth. Mesmer for example have to deal with non stacking stealth since the beginning, for many of their cloak skills do not stack with each other.

TyPin.9860:

no stealth stacking

i agree

Go play with thief in spvp/tpvp. They are not even close to the strongest class. Thieves suck at zerging. 900 range on shortbow = dead thief with no invulns. Even with som you can’t regen enough life for all the aoe damage you receive. Compare that to necro with the aoes and range. Great, you can give blast finisher, but that doesn’t help you out personally because you really can’t get close enough without getting exploded.

Yes, it would affect cnd, lots of people use cnd and then HIS or blinding powder to stack a few extra seconds of stealth.

Saying that you play it as much as your Mesmer means nothing. I play thief and only thief. Wvw and spvp. I have a considerable more amount of hours actually fighting other players than you. Roaming in wvw is what thief does best out of all types of gameplay. Aside from that, they are not as strong and cannot take any kind of nerf or they become unviable using stealth builds.

You know they added stealth traps right? He’ll I get them for free when gaining rank in wvw. Any time a thief is stealthing too much just drop one of these. I’ve done it plenty of times and every single time I’ve used it, it has resulted in a dead thief trying to drop every form if stealth to live. It’s hilarious to see a thief use refuge and nothing happens. There is a counter already in the game to stealth stacking and you still want to nerf it?

L2p.

no stealth stacking
Equal to the many mesmer stealth abilities, the stealth from different sources would not stack (combo finisher counting as the same source).

So, you suggest that BP + HS would still allow easy stacking of 10s stealth? That’s bad. This particular combo is everything that needs to be nerfed, everything else about thieves is quite balanced.

@swinsk.6410
I have no issues fighting thieves. Your l2p comment serves nothing and shows you didn’t understand the intention I have, or u just wanted to add some insult in the end, serving no value in a disussion. Yes there are traps, but they are a bad desing. Why should any1 be forced to use supply (and if it has to be used often money) to coutner stealth. But countering stealth is not what is intended anyway and as I said, on a high level of player skill, stealth is not an issue any more. I wish to have a balance on a lower skill level. Casual thiev against any other casual profession. But that balance doesn’t exist. On casual levels theives have an advantage. And using CnD and HIS together would still be possible. You first would have to time your skills, for the stealth wouldn’t stack. And if you time it good enough, you would drop out of stealth for a mini second after CnD and reaply new stealth again with HIS and stealth exhaustion would even come into play, but you would be seen for a blink of an eye (depending on your timing). A minor effect imho. As a mesmer, I use that strategy all the time (cuz as mentioned, many mesmer stealth skills don’t steack stealth) and it works fine with some pratice. I might test that in real fight situations with theif and see if it affects play.

If you are against my suggestions, do you have others how to balance thief on casual level? Or does every player have to l2p just to defeat even casual thief players?

@Iavra.8510
With stealth exhaustion implemented, it would nerf perma stealth already. And traiting Stealth Focus (to prevent stealth exhaustion) would cause the theif to drop either health gain in stealth or condition remove in stealth. Leading still to a nerf of the build.

Alternative: remove stealth stacking only
On the other hand, if we drop the stealth exhaustion idea and would remove stealth stacking over all (except for shadow refuge, cuz that skill would be useless then), could be a solution also. Thieves would then need to time their stealthing skills and it would be esaier to implement in the game.

1 v 1 my thief or one of my friends. ill show you how good u arent :P and how easy u THINK it is but really isnt. thief can be played decently by many but played well by VERY few. u want easy? guardian….. and how about mesmer? clones do 75% of the work. ur way off base here buddy

TyPin.9860:

@swinsk.6410
I have no issues fighting thieves. Your l2p comment serves nothing and shows you didn’t understand the intention I have, or u just wanted to add some insult in the end, serving no value in a disussion. Yes there are traps, but they are a bad desing. Why should any1 be forced to use supply (and if it has to be used often money) to coutner stealth. But countering stealth is not what is intended anyway and as I said, on a high level of player skill, stealth is not an issue any more. I wish to have a balance on a lower skill level. Casual thiev against any other casual profession. But that balance doesn’t exist. On casual levels theives have an advantage. And using CnD and HIS together would still be possible. You first would have to time your skills, for the stealth wouldn’t stack. And if you time it good enough, you would drop out of stealth for a mini second after CnD and reaply new stealth again with HIS and stealth exhaustion would even come into play, but you would be seen for a blink of an eye (depending on your timing). A minor effect imho. As a mesmer, I use that strategy all the time (cuz as mentioned, many mesmer stealth skills don’t steack stealth) and it works fine with some pratice. I might test that in real fight situations with theif and see if it affects play.

If you are against my suggestions, do you have others how to balance thief on casual level? Or does every player have to l2p just to defeat even casual thief players?

@Iavra.8510
With stealth exhaustion implemented, it would nerf perma stealth already. And traiting Stealth Focus (to prevent stealth exhaustion) would cause the theif to drop either health gain in stealth or condition remove in stealth. Leading still to a nerf of the build.

Alternative: remove stealth stacking only
On the other hand, if we drop the stealth exhaustion idea and would remove stealth stacking over all (except for shadow refuge, cuz that skill would be useless then), could be a solution also. Thieves would then need to time their stealthing skills and it would be esaier to implement in the game.

if u truly wanted to help thieves or make it a lil more fair you would ask for us to have middle pool HP to start and also for us tohave somethign other that pre battle blast finishing to bring to a group/zerg play. but we dont. we have NOTHING but our 1 v 1 skills. you want to bring that down a lvl? then ahve nothing ? :P wow. u really are off base. obv ur new to thief so i mean not ur fault but when u need a lesson…. play a good thief.

This “stealth exhaustion” is…not a really good idea. I’m currently playing thief and against a lot of opponents i basically have to chain CnD (which is easy to dodge/anticipate) to survive and wait for my utilities/steal to recharge.

Also, CnD was __hit (filter -.-) hard by the blind buff. You have to get near to the opponent and actually waste an attack on them (potentially getting blinded again) to be able to get your CnD off. I miss 2 CnD and i have to run for my life.

@Travlane.5948
Your bragging about how good you are(n’t) doesn’t help the discussion. Again (I start to believe ppl don’t read the whole of my posts), I want to see balance for casual level players, where the stealth is giving thieves an advantage, that other casual players can not deal with, even if the thief is a casual player himself. You might be way out of my league, or I might eat you allife. Doesn’t matter for this discussion for the level of play, I am talking about, is below both our skill levels.

And I still can not understand the claims, that theif can not contribute to group or zerg fights. I with my thief can strangly. Pre and mid fight combo finisher, multiple hits with shortbow one, shadow refuge for multiple applications with organized group, picking of to far extended foes, dagger storm and more (and I am mainly talking about shrotbow here, not counting in main hand pistol theives, who could put great preassure on a single target). Hell, I can not count how many guys I have stoped entering their tower with stealth and shortbow #1, so that my Zerg can pick’em off. I don’t like throwing the l2p phrase arround, but it seems that some thieves should improve their group fighting. I agree that 900 range is a bit short, but as far as my experienve goes, it is enough.

@Iavra.8510:
I don’t understand your argument. CnD can not be chained for you will be revealed. If you mean you reapply it in the very right moment, then stealth exhaustion will not come into play, for one time using CnD will cloak you 3-4 seconds, stealth exhausion would only apply if you cloak for >4 seconds. But multiple stealth with CnD require you to pop out of stealth (even just for a blink of an eye) before you reapply it, making stealth exhaustion no issue for you.

Sorry TyPin, this kind of response is what we usually reserve for the numerous trolls that come to our forum trying to ruin the class. I don’t think you’re trolling though.

As far as your topic goes, I don’t believe the thief needs any nerfs at this point, and your suggestion is a nerf. Any nerfs to the class should be (imo) accompanied by equal buffs to compensate all builds affected by the nerf.

However, I agree with you that at low levels of skill, the thief is a very difficult enemy. Sometimes I wonder if reduced access to stealth with a compensation of more mobility as well as more damage outside of stealth could be a fix for it. Actually showing where the thief is while stealthed doesn’t feel fair though. As another poster mentioned, it’d be impossible to land a backstab. I also think this suggestion would limit build diversity by allowing the thief an opportunity to “opt-out” of this nerf with 30 trait points. I’ve never been a fan of stacking stealth with black powder but if that got taken away I still think some buffs would be warranted.

The thief is not overpowered. As this game matures, so will the player base (well most of them at least xD). The newbs will either quit for other games or continue improving. We should strive to have classes being equal at all skill levels but if we can’t achieve that they should be balanced for the top tier because that’s all that will be left eventually. That’s my view on it at any rate.

Keep putting more hours into your thief. I think a player really should have several hundred hours into a profession to be qualified to be making balance suggestions.

TyPin.9860:

@swinsk.6410
I have no issues fighting thieves. Your l2p comment serves nothing and shows you didn’t understand the intention I have, or u just wanted to add some insult in the end, serving no value in a disussion. Yes there are traps, but they are a bad desing. Why should any1 be forced to use supply (and if it has to be used often money) to coutner stealth. But countering stealth is not what is intended anyway and as I said, on a high level of player skill, stealth is not an issue any more. I wish to have a balance on a lower skill level. Casual thiev against any other casual profession. But that balance doesn’t exist. On casual levels theives have an advantage. And using CnD and HIS together would still be possible. You first would have to time your skills, for the stealth wouldn’t stack. And if you time it good enough, you would drop out of stealth for a mini second after CnD and reaply new stealth again with HIS and stealth exhaustion would even come into play, but you would be seen for a blink of an eye (depending on your timing). A minor effect imho. As a mesmer, I use that strategy all the time (cuz as mentioned, many mesmer stealth skills don’t steack stealth) and it works fine with some pratice. I might test that in real fight situations with theif and see if it affects play.

If you are against my suggestions, do you have others how to balance thief on casual level? Or does every player have to l2p just to defeat even casual thief would then need to time their stealthing skills and it would be esaier to implement in the game.

What’s wrong with stealth traps? You spend some supply and reveal for 30s. You need that supply for anything else if your roaming? You don’t need to use every time you face a thief, but the ones who stay stealthed more often than not it works very well against. Learn to use it properly. L2p.

What’s this casual player theme you keep bringing up? Does that mean you only play 3 hrs a week or does that mean you are a completely uncoordinated kitten? This game already has a super low skill cap. We don’t need to lower it anymore. IMO, a noob guardian will destroy a noob thief. Seems balanced to me.

Stop comparing thief stealth to Mesmer. Mesmers have clones and invulns to hide behind. Thieves only have stealth unless you play evade thief which doesn’t work out so well in wvw and similarly you only have one form of defense. Spvp is better for those.

Even if you time your second stealth perfectly you are visible and against a noob it wouldn’t be a big deal, but against a really good player they will mess you up with aoe and autos etc. while you want to balance for noobs you also have to realize there are skilled players. Most don’t wvw cause that’s where noobs go. Most do spvp/tpvp. You should try it. Thief is actually really balanced across the board and in fact could use a few buffs.

Stop comparing thief stealth to Mesmer. Mesmers have clones and invulns to hide behind. Thieves only have stealth unless you play evade thief which doesn’t work out so well in wvw and similarly you only have one form of defense. Spvp is better for those.

Works very well by the way, and you also have blinds and teleports. Evade thief has always some access to stealth, too.

the trait thing I dont think but stealth stacking from different skills I agree with you different stealth skills shood not stack with each other similar to mesmer stealth were if you use new stealth skill before last ends new does not work.

TyPin.9860:

@Travlane.5948
Your bragging about how good you are(n’t) doesn’t help the discussion. Again (I start to believe ppl don’t read the whole of my posts), I want to see balance for casual level players, where the stealth is giving thieves an advantage, that other casual players can not deal with, even if the thief is a casual player himself. You might be way out of my league, or I might eat you allife. Doesn’t matter for this discussion for the level of play, I am talking about, is below both our skill levels.

And I still can not understand the claims, that theif can not contribute to group or zerg fights. I with my thief can strangly. Pre and mid fight combo finisher, multiple hits with shortbow one, shadow refuge for multiple applications with organized group, picking of to far extended foes, dagger storm and more (and I am mainly talking about shrotbow here, not counting in main hand pistol theives, who could put great preassure on a single target). Hell, I can not count how many guys I have stoped entering their tower with stealth and shortbow #1, so that my Zerg can pick’em off. I don’t like throwing the l2p phrase arround, but it seems that some thieves should improve their group fighting. I agree that 900 range is a bit short, but as far as my experienve goes, it is enough.

@Iavra.8510:
I don’t understand your argument. CnD can not be chained for you will be revealed. If you mean you reapply it in the very right moment, then stealth exhaustion will not come into play, for one time using CnD will cloak you 3-4 seconds, stealth exhausion would only apply if you cloak for >4 seconds. But multiple stealth with CnD require you to pop out of stealth (even just for a blink of an eye) before you reapply it, making stealth exhaustion no issue for you.

the point isnt how good i am. the point is how good you arent. its obvious in the way you talk. thief is not easy to master. its one of the 2 hardest classes. so if u claim to be that good lets put it up on my cam. shall we? where is your video evidence? you cant claim prowess and expect players to take your word on that. as of right now i am thinking you dont even have a thief character on your home screen. none to play with at all. as far as the forums is concerned i am just as right/telling the truth as you are or vice verse.

when he says chained he means chained with infil sig or steal. again… another piece of proof ur new to thief if u even play one at all. press CnD then steal .5 secs later. see what happens u might wow.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Stop comparing thief stealth to Mesmer. Mesmers have clones and invulns to hide behind. Thieves only have stealth unless you play evade thief which doesn’t work out so well in wvw and similarly you only have one form of defense. Spvp is better for those.

Works very well by the way, and you also have blinds and teleports. Evade thief has always some access to stealth, too.

evade thieves dont use stealth :P maybe like 2% of them do and if they do its only for tactical strike. also we only use teleports for melee dmg. doesnt help with clone/mes dmg as most of it is usually at distance.

@Travlane.5948
Why are you insisting of us dueling? And how could I show you video evidence, when I am talking about a skill level below mine? There is no point in that to serve the purpose of this discussion. What I put out are suggestions, that can’t even be shown as of now…

About CnD:

Also, CnD was __hit (filter -.-) hard by the blind buff. You have to get near to the opponent and actually waste an attack on them (potentially getting blinded again) to be able to get your CnD off. I miss 2 CnD and i have to run for my life.

He clearly talks about chaining CnD. If he wanna use steal, he could say so, but he doesn’t.

swinsk.6410
You will be ignored now, for you seem not to read my post. Also your useing a 2nd time the l2p troll phrase labels u a troll imho.

Stealth exhausion
Besides the many trolls here I see that stealth exhaustion might connected with too many issues as it seems.

Stealth Stacking
Still I believe that should not happen. Stealth doesn’t need to stack and would especially effect lower skilled theif players, I think. The comparison to mesmer is valid. They have allways available one evade (up to 4 sec if tratied and shattering 3 illusions) on long cd and a 2nd arround 2sec with sword. They don’t have invul. But also those evade skills don’t stack.

Why is there the need for theives to stack stealth and for mesmer not?

And another question to those: “I play onyl Thief”-guys. If you have only played thief, how can u tell actually if there is a balance? You could not know how easy or hard it is for others to deal with you. You might be a realy bad player and could only win, cuz thief is imba (not that I believe that is the case, but how can u know that?). I believe one has to play many professions to judge if there is a balance or not.

If you mean you reapply it in the very right moment, then stealth exhaustion will not come into play,

Yes, this is what i meant. Seems like it’s too hard for me to understand your suggestions…

But, after all, my opinion remains: Combo stealth (BP + HS, also engi smoke fields) not being stackable is everything needed.

I start to tend to this too. I droped my stealth exhausion idea already. It created more confusion than it could contribute. Also I admit that it would propably hurt the higher skill levels more, because casual players wouldn’t propably even realize that there is smth shimering^^. So what does the theif community think about not stacking stealth, without my stealth exhausion idea?

As far as I see it, you can still remain for long time stealthed, it is just not that easy any more for P/D to chain stealth with BP and 3 times HS through it. To chain stealth, you would need to time your stealth better, meaning, when it is about to run out, you would reaply new stealth either replacing the old stealth or just simply (as it is with mesmers) would have now 2 stealth buffs next to each other as long as the first stealth didn’t run out.

@typin its obv that you are low lvl. if you are low lvl your suggestions as stated on your OP are useless. get it now?

lol, your “logic” is undenieable…

Is there, or is there not an unbalance for casual players, that favor thief? I think yes. You seem to deny that and by saying, I am a low level thief, you say I can not judge the balance between professions played out on a casual player level.

To judge casual player level balance, I don’t even have to be better than casual player level. However, you are right that judging the impact of changes in the game on higher player level, one should have experience in this regard.

We can now discuss days, if I meet the requirements for you to admit my skill is above average, or we could try to discuss the topic:

As I have stated above, I have droped my idea about stealth exhaustion. What would you say, with your huge experience and unparaleled player skill, would be the impact on the top thief player level if we removed stealth stacking (shadow refuge, as stated, excluded)?

P.S.: I couldn’t stop myself from puting some sarcasm in here I apologize^^

The thief class can seem like a god mode class to a player who has just not “caught on” to the mechanics of GW2.

I think 80%+ players never hit the dodge key.

You can’t punish above average players for thier skill no matter what proffession they play.

I have beaten guardians without using stealth..because they didn’t know thier proffession not because of any other factor.

An up level killed me once in WvW. He was awesome..anticipated my every move, didn’t waste a single skill.
Stun breaks, dodges and evades at the right time made me loose my burst dmg.
It was a close fight and so good I wouldn’t have used permastealth if I could have.

I’d take any time BackStab dmg and non-combat one button permastealth in a heartbeat.
I’d still make players QQ..if you can’t learn to move your dead.

Show us on the doll where the lil bad thief stabby stabby you…..