Guild Wars 2

It just didnt work.

Thieves, at least on WvW still perma stealthing all the way and doing lot of dmg, the second part is ok, the first one, just no…

I understand that thieves dont have lot of GOOD viable builds, but thats just ridiculous. Its not a problem of the player, it looks like a problem to fix something arenanet it self created.
Im playing since second beta, and dude, it just looks wrost cause they are really trying to balance the classes but for some reason thief is always a “problem”.

Im not here taking any side like “thief must be nerfed”, I can use a thief and do the same thing. Dont come with the old “thief are supposed to excel on 1v1, they do nothing on groups”, no dude, just no, thats the problem.

They need more viable builds, give them aoe, give them more hp or tough give them some utility on a Zerg, BUT when you fight with something u almost never see and IF you are closer to kill they just vanish, doesnt look fair.

You can say “just because you cant see do not mean you cant hit”, I say depends. Depends on what weapon you are using, you need a target cause the projectiles dont go foward.

Ive seen perma thieves taking down full light dire sets like paper in 3 to 4 hits and leather dire with 5 to 6. lol
They can hit and wait, hit and wait, faster than any heal could recharge.

Well thats my opinion, and my point of view.
Thief need a rework.

“You can say “just because you cant see do not mean you cant hit”, I say depends. Depends on what weapon you are using, you need a target cause the projectiles dont go foward.”

Solution for this:
Equip the right weapons
Run with people who have weapons that don’t need a target

What was your problem again?

Wraith.4103:

You can say “just because you cant see do not mean you cant hit”, I say depends. Depends on what weapon you are using, you need a target cause the projectiles dont go foward.

Well, that’s a common misconception.

Actually, they do go forward… but without a target, they go forward to whatever is on the center of your screen… which happens to be the floor in front of you 99% of the time, since your usual PoV is aerial-pointing down on your character.

However, if you adjust your Point of View (imagine as if it were an invisible crosshair at the center of your screen) to whatever you want to target, your projectile will go there, even upwards. But… Given how unfriendly the camera is in this game, this feels awkward ad unpractical to do, since you lose a lot of your peripheral vision.

Thief can’t perma stealth unless they take all stealth utilities and patience. Even so, it’s not really permanent.

Previous you could do it permanently with black powder + heartseeker 4 times across it and never leave stealth. All it took was one trait.

Now, you eventually run out of init+utilities. It is still possible to HS across BP 3 times and gain a longer stealth, but hardly permanent.

If anything thieves need buffs. It’s not our fault unintelligent people like you exist and can’t seem to figure out how to deal with semi-invisible opponents.

When I play my warr I don’t have a problem with other thieves. In fact I know what to expect at all times because I’ve played thief so long. When to dodge, when to block, where to position myself, etc.

I respect you r opinion OP, and i feel you are the voice of the majority and i appreciate you for raising awareness of this present issue.

And i completely agree with you; it’s not about nerfing thief to the ground but giving them something greatly in return. You say rework this class, i say redesign this class; either one will be justified in the end.

Why take and not replace?

When you see threads like these; Thief desperately needs build diversity, How to make thieves “fair” in WvW, Building a better D/D thief, Collection of thief problems, it all make sense.

I feel thieves should “have more under their sleeves” but somehow i feel Arena.net is intentionally preventing them from being so, which is sad and wrong.

I’m glad there are more players encouraging Arena.net to give thieves more variety of choices, instead of them being controlled and manipulated by a favorite tyrannic dictator mechanic system.

Permastealth = doesn’t go out of stealth for a very long periods of time and just sits inside of a tower, usually stealthing a mesmer alongside himself.

Anet themselves have previously stated that they ARE OK with thieves going in and out of stealth in combat, since that is the thief’s’ primary defensive mechanic (evasion being an alternative, though you rarely if ever see both in one build). Also, thieves eating through single target’s defenses is only to be expected. They are a single target focused class, that is supposed to pick off solo stragglers.

Burnfall.9573:

When you see threads like these; Thief desperately needs build diversity, How to make thieves “fair” in WvW, Building a better D/D thief, Collection of thief problems, it all make sense.

Only the first topic is a correct thread burnfall..
The second is a qq thread that in no way was meant to “improve thieves” but rather flat-out nerf them. And the third thread is just a guy theorycrafting a new build, which in no way accounts for a profession re-design.

Gwalchgwn.1659:

“improve thieves”

Don’t fix me; I’m not broken!

When did perma stealth become an issue to people? Look at all the other really successful MMO’s, they had perma stealth classes and a vanish that would put them back into a perma stealth. The thief class has a unique mechanic that ANet decided would be the best for their game. It allows you to disappear and reappear like any assassin in a fantasy world would be like. It works this way because there are no specific defense mechanic for thieves or any other class for that matter. There are no stats like evasion or dodge you would normally see. Classes depend on utility, they are defined by it and it molds them into a unique class. Thieves depend on stealth and blinds to avoid damage. Why?? Because they simply cant take damage or they will die. Thieves or assassins should have the first strike and do the most damage in the first 3 seconds of the fight, that is what they are built around. This is lore, this is what you should expect from this class. Thieves should be evasive and hard to catch. A thief isn’t a thief when hes caught. A caught thief is a prisoner serving a jail sentence. Why would ANet make a class based off of a sneaky, shadowy, saboteur only to give them no defensive utility and the ability to die instantly. Thieves have no invulnerability or stability through skills or utilities like nearly every other class has. The OP said give them more health and toughness.. This would only break the lore of a character it was manifested from in the first place. The only way i can ever see a thief not having any stealth in a build is with a bunch of blinds and evasion like S/D had, but wait, that’s already been unnecessarily nerfed because of posts like this. Now stealth is targeted… its getting a little ridiculous.
The fact that other classes have stealth are what you should really complain about, not the class built around stealth.

You’ve got to be kidding me. Seriously.

A thief can enter stealth.
A thief cannot escape a channeled skill by entering stealth.
A thief cannot attack while in stealth.
A thief can be ATTACKED while in stealth.
A thief can be stun locked due to no stability.
A thief can be nuked with AoE.
A thief can no longer maintain permanent vigor, and cannot attack while dodging.
A thief has no real team-fight capabilities besides AoE weakness and zipping in and out with infiltrator’s strike/return.
A thief can shadow step about using steal, shadow step and infiltrator’s strike. Infiltrator’s arrow isn’t instant, and infiltrator’s return is no longer instant, and therefore cannot be used to escape while cc’d.
A thief cannot bunker a node due to condition removal and heals being stealth-oriented.

A Mesmer can enter stealth.
A mesmer can escape a channeled skill by moving behind a clone or phantasm.
A mesmer CAN attack while in stealth via phantasms.
A mesmer can be attacked while in stealth, but can use phantasms and clones as meat shields so your un-targeted swings hit those instead.
A mesmer can (although more difficult against the experienced player) hide in plain sight among their clones, and can repeat this when targeted by entering+exiting stealth.
A mesmer has access to stability.
A mesmer can be nuked with AoE, but they have an instant on-the-spot evasion ability and access to invulnerability.
A mesmer has access to permanent vigor, and can attack while dodging via phantasms.
A memser has team fight and support capabilities.
A mesmer can blink about using blink and switch places with clone (main hand sword), and can do it while cc’d. Alternating these they can do it almost as much as a thief would (not as much as a thief ‘can’ but can much as a thief would ‘need’ to), while their phantasms/clones continue to attack, damaging, crippling and bleeding you.
A mesmer can bunker a node.

So, they can do everything a thief can, while still dealing damage when on the run, in stealth or trying to heal. They are very easy to play: simply summon some phantasms and hide. They have excellent mobility. Why did you come to the thief to complain?

not to mention how much they can easily access retaliation !

and i don’t really want the mesmer to be nerfed to the ground . but the thief needs something i would love to be out of this wheelchair

Gwalchgwn.1659:

Burnfall.9573:

When you see threads like these; Thief desperately needs build diversity, How to make thieves “fair” in WvW, Building a better D/D thief, Collection of thief problems, it all make sense.

Only the first topic is a correct thread burnfall..
The second is a qq thread that in no way was meant to “improve thieves” but rather flat-out nerf them. And the third thread is just a guy theorycrafting a new build, which in no way accounts for a profession re-design.

Thank You! for the correction Gwalchgwn

Perma-stealth builds.. and I mean the really, really stealthy ones that find some way to have a moment of visibility as low as like one second here and there.. usually are nothing more than a nuisance anyways. If you’re not equipped with AoEs, and aren’t one shotted by them, simply move on and ignore them. They build themselves around playing mind games; they want you to think they’re pro when they manage to take on 5 people or more when they happen to luck out and jump a group not equipped with a lot of aoe and aoe stun utility and (even when they don’t manage to down anyone) will just end up trolling you. They are expecting you to get angry and keep hunting them down with overly large groups and consequently feed them with a few squishy berserker and uplevel kills that prove and mean absolutely nothing. Don’t feed their ego by letting them make your groups waste 5-10 minutes hitting air while their buddies flip your camps and towers. Most of the really, really skilled thieves seem to be rolling different non-perma stealth builds anyways as they WANT TO BE SEEN at least on some level because they want desperately to stand out as skilled players in a class that is hard to stand out with when played so that you can acknowledge their skill.

You can in turn contribute by doing a /bow or /salute when you fight a thief that isn’t rolling something cookie cutter while simultaneously keeping in your mind that it’s hard to play that class on anything other than a cookie cutter build. (And by that I mean the 2-3 copy paste builds 99% of thieves roll).

Thieves probably have better AoE and build diversity than Rangers or Mesmers.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Thieves in WvW, since I doubt anyone would think perma-stealthing is a problem in PvP.
Generally, assuming there are no skill level differences, Thieves are strong (in a fair 1v1 situation) against glasscannon classes with not much AoE, like mesmers, depending on the builds, of course.
However, I dare you to try and use that trick against a condition Necromancer or a stun Warrior. It won’t work and you’ll most definitely lose.

You’re trying to make this look like a concerned thread about balance, but in reality you’re whining about thieves using their stealth to counter glasscannons.
My suggestion? If you’re in a disadvantage, don’t try to duel.

What Anet is doing, and constantly keeps doing, is just nerfing thieves to the point that the only choice is to play as passively as possible. To make the safest build possible. There is no encouragement to be aggressive, even though, at the end of the day, the thieves people complain about are the passive ones that play as safe as possible. When you fight an aggressive thief, it’s fun and engaging. You really feel like you worked for the win or they worked for the win. When they just just stealth > fail > repeat until win or decide to run, people get mad. Losing feels like you got cheated. No one has fun, the thief himself usually doesn’t want to have to resort to such mechanics honestly, but they have to. There is no other choice. Dodge survival build S/D? Pretty much a distant memory. Aggressive D/D builds? Why bother, D/P has far more useful abilities overall. (this is coming from a dedicated D/D thief, I refuse to live in the D/P pigeon hole that’s being made for me). Even then P/D pistol condi, played as passively and safe as possible it is at it’s strongest. Promote aggressive play. I still feel like the Infiltrator Return nerf is the most pointless idiodic nerf to ever happen to any class. It’s completely baseless and honestly unfair.

Swinging at air is such a fun archetype.
This game is a joke.

I’m curious to what people would think about removing stealth finishers and rebalancing thief.

LOL so stomping people in stealth is OP but “Invulnerable” is perfectly fine?

Genesis.7049:

When did perma stealth become an issue to people? Look at all the other really successful MMO’s, they had perma stealth classes and a vanish that would put them back into a perma stealth. …

If you’re talking about a certain other MMO, then stealth was only partial invisibility with several counters and a class with a pretty hard counter.

Give Rangers flare and they might be more useful (in WvW).