Guild Wars 2

Was thinking of making a thief as they look very fun to play, but the biggest draw was dual pistols for me, how are they today?

Just like everything else in the game, they’re just as good as your opinion of them is.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Just like everything else in the game, they’re just as good as your opinion of them is.

So they are just as good as D/D Elementalist? Must be why so many pro’s use them in tournaments…

The real answer is they are not great, but they are a lot of fun if you like the gunslinger theme, and if you kill people, you can relish it more.

They’re pretty bad. No cleave, no pierce, you can’t even make bullets bounce anymore. And the single-target isn’t nearly strong enough to make up for that.

Man I was hoping to make a thief, I have a mesmer and an ele and do not really play my ele yet but wanted a more rare class to play, the only other rare class I have seen is necros and they do not appeal to me at any level.

Beetamus.6403:

Ghotistyx.6942:

Just like everything else in the game, they’re just as good as your opinion of them is.

So they are just as good as D/D Elementalist? Must be why so many pro’s use them in tournaments…

The real answer is they are not great, but they are a lot of fun if you like the gunslinger theme, and if you kill people, you can relish it more.

If you stay oblivious and ignorant to everything, then they might actually be good. That and muting/blocking most people in PvP while doing so… :P

Basically, living in your own little world where you think that dual pistols are amazing.

Well, they arent amazing right now but they can work for a venom condi build. But with the removal of ricochet and lack of cleave, yeh…

Daredevil does make them better, I’m not expert enough to know whether better enough, but definitely better. They do need Ricochet back though.

Dual pistols are in a pretty bad spot. Their damage is lacking, and worse, entirely single target. They’re fine for adventuring out in the world, though, and I tend to use them on world bosses since it’s the best sustained non-melee damage Thief has access to.

Dual pistols is my off after D/D. I have a pretty heavy self healing crit build so if I get low on health it’s nice to jump back and spam 3 to regain health back quick.

Zero Day.2594:

Beetamus.6403:

So they are just as good as D/D Elementalist? Must be why so many pro’s use them in tournaments…

The real answer is they are not great, but they are a lot of fun if you like the gunslinger theme, and if you kill people, you can relish it more.

If you stay oblivious and ignorant to everything, then they might actually be good. That and muting/blocking most people in PvP while doing so… :P

Basically, living in your own little world where you think that dual pistols are amazing.

Both of you severely misunderstood the entirely of that post

Ghotistyx.6942:

Zero Day.2594:

Beetamus.6403:

So they are just as good as D/D Elementalist? Must be why so many pro’s use them in tournaments…

The real answer is they are not great, but they are a lot of fun if you like the gunslinger theme, and if you kill people, you can relish it more.

If you stay oblivious and ignorant to everything, then they might actually be good. That and muting/blocking most people in PvP while doing so… :P

Basically, living in your own little world where you think that dual pistols are amazing.

Both of you severely misunderstood the entirely of that post

Was it:
Have a positive attitude about it and ignore the fact that it’s kitten?

One of the problem with P/P is Retal. I really don’t like the idea of doing 4-5K to the enemy while hurting myself for 1.5-2K. That is a bad trade off. You could say don’t use #3 when they have retal up but what am I going to do since #1 blows and #2/#4/#5 are utility skills?

Gabriell.4856:

but what am I going to do since #1 blows and #2/#4/#5 are utility skills?

This. I know thief isn’t about rotation, but P/P has nothing to do (as a discrete weapon set) if someone sets up one of the many counters to P/P (reflect, auras, retal, melee pressure, etc). Your best option is to just swap sets at that point. If that set happens to be Shortbow you’re SoL.

Many attempt to correct this weakness in P/P by loading their utilities with stealth. The problem with THAT is that there are many counters to stealth. Also at that point it’s more beneficial, generally speaking, to go full stealth AND equip a more balanced weaponset.

The new dodges coming with Daredevil give some thieves hope that P/P will finally be useful. I’m not sure mechanics outside of P/P will ever truly make P/P useful. P/P needs to be made useful in it’s own right.

Of course the problem with balancing P/P is that P#1-2 is in a perfectly fine place and improving it would imbalance P/D, and P#4-5 are also in a fine place and improving them would imbalance D/P. The only choice left is to somehow maintain the DPS but also improve the Utility/Mitigation possibilities of P#3 alone. That has yet to happen.

Retal works against any class, and yes use #5 until retal disappears.
Pistols will shine once Daredevil drops. Remember you don’t have to go staff. All that endurance and the evades blend nicely with double heaters. Throw in the skill Distracting Daggers which will make the 3 skill a monster and it is more than viable.

P/P has never been in a good spot. It’s hugely dysfunctional because the auto attack is very weak and it only has one high damage skill, which keeps you resource starved and locked out of utility. That damage skill is also channeled, meaning you have poor mobility while spamming it. It’s the only set in the game that forces you to sacrifice huge amounts of DPS to get any utility and forces you to sacrifice all your utility to sustain decent DPS. And that DPS isn’t amazing either, it’s merely slightly above average.

It was passable at best during the period of time they had Ricochet buffed to 50%, but both before and since that it simply hasn’t been good.

IMO, the solution to P/P is obvious. Vital Shot needs to have its physical damage buffed significantly (by about 40%) and its bleed damage nerfed slightly (about 10-20%). Then Unload needs to have its damage nerfed slightly (10-20%) but given AoE capability (probably cone based)

The net result will be not much practical change for P/D and a large buff to P/P through a massive overhaul of its resource appropriation. #1 will become the bread-and-butter as it should be and Unload will become both more fun and more utilitarian, allowing you to change strategies based on the context of the fight – remaining more mobile and making better use of the available utility.

If we were all going to play what is ideal in the open world, then we would all delete and make GS Mesmers, which isn’t that far from the truth, because I have run into whole guilds playing them.

I play double heaters now, I’ll play them later. Still miss Rico but I will live…just for a shorter period of time now.

I’m gonna post this here too, P/P isn’t that bad as many people may think especially since patch, just needs some practice to make it work. And well ye, i still use d/p as an off set if i run out of stealth, but most importantly i can have fun with p/p as a main weapon. Some duels against decent players with strong builds like mediguard or s/f ele. I’m not saying its super powerful but it can be as good as meta d/p, or even better in some situations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCW__fkoazg

For roaming i mostly use the SA version of the build and i found its survivability comparable to meta d/p mostly because of lifesteal.
So just wanted to say, dont give up on p/p, its viable already, and probably it will be even better with daredevil (tested it but cant tell yet).

Zero Day.2594:

Was it:
Have a positive attitude about it and ignore the fact that it’s kitten?

No. It was “If you think it’s good, then it’s good. If you think it’s bad, it’s bad” Your experiences will generally confirm your opinions. If you think there’s potential and you can make it work, you’ll probably have a higher opinion than someone who thinks it’s worthless. It sounds pretty obvious, but it’s incredible how often people assume their opinion is fact applicable to everyone.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Zero Day.2594:

Was it:
Have a positive attitude about it and ignore the fact that it’s kitten?

No. It was “If you think it’s good, then it’s good. If you think it’s bad, it’s bad” Your experiences will generally confirm your opinions. If you think there’s potential and you can make it work, you’ll probably have a higher opinion than someone who thinks it’s worthless. It sounds pretty obvious, but it’s incredible how often people assume their opinion is fact applicable to everyone.

And if you think too highly of yourself and play only what you consider is good (yet numbers show otherwise)… well your digging yourself into hole.

Be open minded to other’s opinions as well…

Most people here, complete strangers to one another (for the most part), are saying p/p is in a bad place… So yeah… But that’s their opinion, right? Don’t have to consider them at all.
(Actually why post at all, asking opinions of others at that point)

If we are going to make suggestions here is mine :make Unload a evading skill like SB #3. Just buffing AA won’t do anything.

Sagat.3285:

If we are going to make suggestions here is mine :make Unload a evading skill like SB #3. Just buffing AA won’t do anything.

No thanks. I’d prefer to stay in range of my target. #3 SB is a “get away from melee guy who closed range on me skill.” Unload is a “feel my wrath” skill.

I’m not big on nerfing damage and turning into AoE either. I liked Ricochet well enough, but if we’re not getting it back. Perhaps flip #5 to AoE on target rather than personal field. I know d/p won’t like that, but…

Over the past 2 months, my wish list for p/p has crystallized on 1200 range, more hp, and return Opportunist. Better #1 would be good. Piercing is an interesting idea.

Black Frog.9274:

Sagat.3285:

If we are going to make suggestions here is mine :make Unload a evading skill like SB #3. Just buffing AA won’t do anything.

No thanks. I’d prefer to stay in range of my target. #3 SB is a “get away from melee guy who closed range on me skill.” Unload is a “feel my wrath” skill.

I’m not big on nerfing damage and turning into AoE either. I liked Ricochet well enough, but if we’re not getting it back. Perhaps flip #5 to AoE on target rather than personal field. I know d/p won’t like that, but…

Over the past 2 months, my wish list for p/p has crystallized on 1200 range, more hp, and return Opportunist. Better #1 would be good. Piercing is an interesting idea.

Only the evading part will be like SB#3 a better comparison would be Flanking Strike or simply a ducking animation and free movement.

Zero Day.2594:

(Actually why post at all, asking opinions of others at that point)

That’s like, the entirety of why this thread was created, to get opinions. Many things people think are fact are not, like what is “good”, “fun”, or “worthwhile”.

Weo weo.6378:

Well, they arent amazing right now but they can work for a venom condi build. But with the removal of ricochet and lack of cleave, yeh…

P/p venom condo builds are hilariously bad. I’ve never died to a p/p thief and I don’t think I ever will…even if they do get you the first time is the surprise of someone actually running p/p you laugh and then it never happens again. P/p is best left for pve imo…if u wanna run venoms there are better ways

Yep. P/D is far more suited for Venoms and condition builds than P/P is… and far better in general, honestly.

Yes.

I keep posting this vid. Daredevil P/P in PvP.

OP should take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVXooJU7yg

Kocoff.7582:

I keep posting this vid. Daredevil P/P in PvP.

OP should take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVXooJU7yg

Videos that are cut and edited to only show “wins” are about as useful as a fart in the wind. It isn’t even narrated discussing the counters used or why a particular fight is difficult/easy. It is a vanity video with no real value beyond showcasing a few victories.

Straegen.2938:

Kocoff.7582:

I keep posting this vid. Daredevil P/P in PvP.

OP should take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVXooJU7yg

Videos that are cut and edited to only show “wins” are about as useful as a fart in the wind. It isn’t even narrated discussing the counters used or why a particular fight is difficult/easy. It is a vanity video with no real value beyond showcasing a few victories.

As harsh as it sounds, that’s too true for all montages.

idk about you guys, but when I watch a pvp or WvW vid I think about how I can implement it myself. I think about the tweaks I can bring to the table to better suit my needs.

It’s matter of perspective. You guys see it as a “fart in the wind”, I see it as potential for experimentation.

Either way, OP should still take a look.

Kocoff.7582:

idk about you guys, but when I watch a pvp or WvW vid I think about how I can implement it myself. I think about the tweaks I can bring to the table to better suit my needs.

It’s matter of perspective. You guys see it as a “fart in the wind”, I see it as potential for experimentation.

Either way, OP should still take a look.

Basically, don’t get your hopes up after seeing a flashy video. That’s all.

Kocoff.7582:

I keep posting this vid. Daredevil P/P in PvP.

OP should take a look
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbVXooJU7yg

Opportunity cost, my friend. Just because you can get more out of P/P with Daredevil’s tools doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be better off playing another build instead.

But hey, GW2 is mostly about having fun and doing whatever, which is why people still managed to have some modicum of success with P/P before the June trait update totally dumpstered it. If you just want to mess around and have fun, P/P should definitely be better come HoT… just not better enough to crack the crust of competitive SPvP builds.

Amante.8109:

Yep. P/D is far more suited for Venoms and condition builds than P/P is… and far better in general, honestly.

P/P condition build using trappers runes is superior to a p/d build but that just one runeset which not available in PvP as I understand it.

With trappers and the right trap selection you get just as many sneak attacks off as a p/d set and never have to use INI to do so and then can use a venom(s) or pressure strike for head shot to interrupt and torment.

Unload in a p/p set is not entirely useless either as it works quite well to throw conditions on via projectile finishers through a field.

Unfortunately Trapper, Torment, and many other rune sets aren’t available in SPvP. Perplexity I get, but the others seem like they’d fit in SPvP just fine.

babazhook.6805:

With trappers and the right trap selection you get just as many sneak attacks off as a p/d set and never have to use INI to do so and then can use a venom(s) or pressure strike for head shot to interrupt and torment.

I’m thinking more for survivability reasons than anything else, because Shadow Strike is a godsend for keeping people out of your face (and the Torment doesn’t hurt, either).

It is a bummer not having Headshot, though, and P/P is poised to improve further on account of Bound letting you stealth more readily… but then again, so is P/D with the addition of Impaling Lotus. Hopefully both will find their niche, but we’ll see I suppose.

So is pistols bad or not? Why am I hearing more opinion then facts here on both sides?

Facts are things like “Pistols attack from 900 base range” and “Unload fires 8 bullets”. Opinions are “p/p can be effective at single target damage” and “p/p is fun to play in X style”. If you want facts just go to the wiki, there’s no point listing them here. Facts don’t get people excited to do something, opinions do. Opinions are what will convince you to try p/p. Your experience will then let you draw your own conclusions.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Facts are things like “Pistols attack from 900 base range” and “Unload fires 8 bullets”. Opinions are “p/p can be effective at single target damage” and “p/p is fun to play in X style”. If you want facts just go to the wiki, there’s no point listing them here. Facts don’t get people excited to do something, opinions do. Opinions are what will convince you to try p/p. Your experience will then let you draw your own conclusions.

Yea I do not think going to wiki is going to help me I did to go the pvp lobby with thief and looked at the skills and traits, but I cannot fully grasp whats going on from this alone. If p/p are good at single targets and you switch to more of an aoe style for multiple encounters then what is the issue?

The entire weapon set could be pretty much fixed by replacing ‘body shot’ with an actual skill that does something - quite surprising nobody mentioned it yet. Ricochet isn’t needed here, unless you want AoE in PvE environment, but even then you should use shortbow instead. P/P is a single target nuke/control set.

The thing is that p/p isn’t even very good against single targets, especially if the fight is long

Your usual dagger brings more single target damage and has small cleave.

I couldn’t bother to read through the whole topic, but if we are talking about pvp then you don’t use p/p because utility on it sucks, you are never going to kill anyone with it (well maybe with quickness cheese) and you absolutely need to have shortbow as secondary weapon set*.

Dagins.5163:

The entire weapon set could be pretty much fixed by replacing ‘body shot’ with an actual skill that does something - quite surprising nobody mentioned it yet. Ricochet isn’t needed here, unless you want AoE in PvE environment, but even then you should use shortbow instead. P/P is a single target nuke/control set.

So in general are thieves good for pve and just have issues in pvp?

Ryou.2398:

Dagins.5163:

The entire weapon set could be pretty much fixed by replacing ‘body shot’ with an actual skill that does something - quite surprising nobody mentioned it yet. Ricochet isn’t needed here, unless you want AoE in PvE environment, but even then you should use shortbow instead. P/P is a single target nuke/control set.

So in general are thieves good for pve and just have issues in pvp?

In PvE, almost anything works. Once you start doing dungeons/fracts though there are better builds out there than p/p.

For leveling, soloing, open world content, etc, dual pistols work fine, especially if you trait for them. If you play a stealthy build your pistol 1 sneak attack is basically another p/p 3 for free, so that’s fun to throw out.

In underleveled areas you can easily run around hitting 3 and instantly kill lower level enemies if you’re in berserker or assassin gear. I did map completion on my thief with Pistol/Pistol and Dagger/Pistol sets. Centaur runes, swiftness Sigils. Ran around 1-shotting enemies in a hail of bullets, maintaining 3 minutes of swiftness nearly all the time.

But against enemies closer to your level, you’ll have to be good with your utilities, or use another weapon set heavily, like switch to Sword/Pistol or Dagger/Dagger after enemies close in on you, after you wear them down a bit from a distance with your guns. Traps work well in this regard because you can just drop em and take a step back and enemies will have to cross them to get to you and you can trait traps to give you 5 might and put 5 vuln on the enemy.

It was never great to start with. Worse with no ricochet now. Makes me a sad panda.