Guild Wars 2

Static.9841:

Mayama.1854:

Static.9841:

All classes get blind and evade, this isn’t a buff or a new addition. Other classes also have access to stealth.

Go to the gw2 wiki and count how many blinds or evades other classes have compared to the thief

Are you being wilfully dense or are you just trying to clutch at straws now because you just -have- to make some kind of comment despite having very little idea what the debate is even about.

The number of blinds and evades isn’t the question, some class builds have tons of vigor uptime, classes can trait for blinds, utilities, weapon skills, whatever. You are citing a standard debuff option that all classes have access to. An evade does nothing to your enemy except either put an attack on CD or just a whiffed auto attack that you’re not going to care about anyway. Blind stops your next attack from landing, hardly a problem unless you’re dumb enough to sit and chill in a blind field until it runs out.

S/D thief is the only thief that won’t have too much problem with this because they don’t rely on stealth as much as other builds.

Any thief not traited in acrobatics or signet of agility does not have all the dodge you are insisting they all have.

Now, a 6 second reveal on an instant cast from 2 classes now which will render an entire trait line useless for a minimum of 6 seconds and leaves a thief as a sitting duck depending on the situation. It’s hardly the same thing as an evade or blind is it. Please get educated before you respond next time.

If these forced reveal abilities are going to get used and seen commonplace, it’ll only encourage thieves to play s/d a lot more. Can’t wait to see all the qq posts about that considering people are already ignorantly crying about S/D.

Seriously, first evade is the most powerfull defense in the game because IT HAS NO COUNTER. Any other passive or active defense in this game can be countered, also wasting cooldowns into evades is a big thing. Second the reveal buff will only hit WvW thieves hard. In sPvP you can aways shortbow away or hide around a corner till it wears off. Its a good thing that it hit WvW thieves because it hardcounters all those builds that endlessly reset with stealth. About blinds, their are many builds that get quite hard countered by blind spam. I bet their wont be a increase in perma-thieves because a-net most likley reworks or nerfs all those damage proc sigils like air and fire. I almost forgot the whole hardcounter problem, its not a problem most specs/classes have hardcounters. If one of those engies with googles runs into a condi necro he will run or bent over, its not balanced around 1v1. If you face an engi that nullifies your stealth call for help, its a team game.

tl,dr those reveal buffs only really hit WvW thieves

There needs to be both Revealed and Detected.

Let the actual Revealed debuff only popup when you exit SR early or after you strike from stealth.

Revealed only exists as a penalty so a thief can’t chain stealth attacks indefinitely (backstab, tactical strike, etc), because that would lack any sort of counterplay (I’m aware revealed didn’t exist around release days). Revealed was not designed to avoid chain stealthing without attacking, so it’s not meant to work against it, otherwise you would always get this debuff when exiting stealth everytime, whether you attack somebody or not.

So I think it would be great to implement a different mechanic like Detected.

Detected would work like, you’re still stealth (therefore gaining access to all the traits, skills and damage associated with it) but people can see you if they use X ability on you (your name and your character shape outline).

This would fix everything, and it would be safer to add more of these mechanics to other classes. Revealed is just crippling and a terrible excuse for balance, and can’t be implemented as a proper “counter” because it’s way more powerful than that. These changes are on par with not letting a mesmer create clones for 6 seconds, or not letting an elementalist switch attunements for 6 seconds. Also, 6 seconds is a very long time. People die all the time because a CC ability lasted 1 second too long.

Horrible.

Can not help myself must post…

Basically if a burst/rifle engi gets the you jump on you you will be dead, it is hard no manage now in the future it will be next to impossible to recover from the opener.

I guess the dev who plays engi is now in charge, the guy who played warrior probably has a new job now.

In the end this stuff was to be expected, what is going to happen is that people will go s/d high mobility with 3x stunbreaker (this will be the case for most thieves) and just run and come back later, or even more stealth hit and run with even more defensive gameplay probably thieves teaming up to make sure they will outdamage everyone on the opener.

The game is going towards whoever gets the opener wins, in the case of engi vs thief the 6sec revealed will make the supply crate an “I win button”.

Bazzoong.7145:

Can not help myself must post...

Basically if a burst/rifle engi gets the you jump on you you will be dead, it is hard no manage now in the future it will be next to impossible to recover from the opener.

The game is going towards whoever gets the opener wins, in the case of engi vs thief the 6sec revealed will make the supply crate an "I win button".

So dead if you get hit by there burst you insta dead anway even with stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifH9qMo_KX8

Mayama.1854:

Seriously, first evade is the most powerfull defense in the game because IT HAS NO COUNTER. Any other passive or active defense in this game can be countered, also wasting cooldowns into evades is a big thing. Second the reveal buff will only hit WvW thieves hard. In sPvP you can aways shortbow away or hide around a corner till it wears off. Its a good thing that it hit WvW thieves because it hardcounters all those builds that endlessly reset with stealth. About blinds, their are many builds that get quite hard countered by blind spam. I bet their wont be a increase in perma-thieves because a-net most likley reworks or nerfs all those damage proc sigils like air and fire. I almost forgot the whole hardcounter problem, its not a problem most specs/classes have hardcounters. If one of those engies with googles runs into a condi necro he will run or bent over, its not balanced around 1v1. If you face an engi that nullifies your stealth call for help, its a team game.

tl,dr those reveal buffs only really hit WvW thieves

OK… once again for the cheap seats.

What does evade have to do with an instant-cast ability that is not telegraphed in any way because it’s instant? Sure, try and use your “most powerful defence” and hope that was the exact time of the insta-cast. If not, GG for blowing a dodge against nothing. So, lets pretend you’re a full glass thief with no acro, you now only have 1 dodge left to chance against the insta-cast (because obviously, you’re going to let yourself get hit by everything else right?) Please tell me the guaranteed to work every time counter vs any insta-cast. Oh, that’s right, there isn’t one.

You are assuming perfect conditions and/or a 1v1 where the theif can easily just waltz off like nothing happened. I don’t think you know or factor in how intense some fights can become. It also sounds like you think the thief will ‘first dodge’ at the start of the fight as if the enemy is going to use reveal as their opening gambit – smart players will wait until you’re in trouble, reveal you, then you’ve got nowhere to run with low health and if your opponent actualy pays attention, little to no initiative. GG.

By your own reasoning, a roaming thief in Wv3 can also SB away, use blink points to make it harder to catch, etc etc. What was your point exactly?

At no point did I say anything about perma-stealth thieves, I stated I would expect an increase in S/D thieves.

You are also assuming that everyone/anyone will be stupid enough to just spam the Analyze/Sic ‘Em button rather than actually watching your dodges and being ready for it. I don’t know what level of PvP you play at, but the games I play generally tend to have opponents smarter than spamming buttons hoping something will go off.

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a “reveal” ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

Shaogin.2679:

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a “reveal” ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

This just would mean stealth wouldn’t be viable and everyone will be running something else, like Acro Trickery S/D for example.

I just looked at todays patch notes and didn’t see anything about Engies getting revealed. Is revealed coming in a future patch?

Shaogin.2679:

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a "reveal" ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

Highly unlikely, 2 years and only ranger so far has reveal skill. Nothing is set in stone yet and there is counter play already.
1. melee AA attacks

2. Aoe attacks

3. Channeling abilites eg. ranger rapid fire, war kill shot/volley

Also players can prevent a thief from stealthing in the first place by using cc, daze and stun.

Shaogin.2679:

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a “reveal” ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

God, I am such a fool wasting a precious slot on SR – all I use it for is rezzing downed players anyway and it’s obviously not appreciated.

There are no stealthless WvW thieves, not even Zerg thieves, at least I don’t see no video’s from them. Almost every thief carries at least two of the trinity, HiS, Shadow Step and Shadow Refuge – they all give stealth. Almost every thief in WvW has at least one weaponset that gives stealth, either with off hand dagger in D/D, S/D and P/D or with D/P.

If everyone gets a 6 second stacking Reveal then thieves will essentially go stealthless and without major changes to the class, stealthless thieves are not viable in Wvw.

So, Mr. Learn-to-adapt, show us a video of how your stealthless thief handles some decent Wvw players.

i’d like to point out that “the entire traitline” also houses another set of very powerful traits.
I have been running venomshare for a LONG time, it is OP in small groups. It used to be strong in WvW (when it still bypassed the Righteous Indignation buff), and even today it is strong (just slightly less).

Venoms have great uses, probably one of the strongest support functions a thief ckittene. Now for PvP, you will lack the armor stats you need to make VS thief efficient (Dire stats). However you can still use settlers with great effect.

From a ranger perspective, Sic’em is pretty decent if you run BM with spiders. However if you run BM with birds or cats, Sic’em will either cancel the pet burst, or the pet burst will cancel sic’em. So to be honest, outside of using it for trolling, it is still not a good utility skill. Just slightly less terrible.
The biggest “issue” for thieves regarding the buffs hinted at for rangers is going to be;
Maul getting 220 range, thus harder to avoid it.
New GS blocking function
Rapid Fire cast time halved (pretty much like rapid fire with quickness is today)
LB minimum and medium damage buffed (rangers will probably hit for around 1.4-1.7k crits in melee range now against glassy thief builds)
Easier access to invuln, stability, damage boosters and might stacks.

Oh ya, IF you fight a ranger with Axe mainhand and a River Drake, DO NO USE THIEVES GUILD. The bounces from that axe will generate 25 stacks of might in an instant on the ranger and pet. That will be your downfall. cuz that drake (even with zero BM points) can easily dish out 6k+ bursts with 25 might stacks. And that drake burst is ranged, and homing and bounces (so guild NPC’s will act as amplifiers)

Shaogin.2679:

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a “reveal” ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

I doubt they all will, they risk killing a class. It all depends as well on what we see as thief buffs.

I’m S/D and have been for quite some time, so I don’t really care, I barely use stealth anyway, but this could be a big problem for other builds/sets.

frans.8092:

Shaogin.2679:

You guys might as well get ready to complain more, because I guarantee you that by the end of all these changes Engineers and Rangers are not going to be the only ones with a “reveal” ability. Counter-play for stealth spam is being implemented. You Thieves are just going to have to learn to adapt and overcome.

God, I am such a fool wasting a precious slot on SR – all I use it for is rezzing downed players anyway and it’s obviously not appreciated.

There are no stealthless WvW thieves, not even Zerg thieves, at least I don’t see no video’s from them. Almost every thief carries at least two of the trinity, HiS, Shadow Step and Shadow Refuge – they all give stealth. Almost every thief in WvW has at least one weaponset that gives stealth, either with off hand dagger in D/D, S/D and P/D or with D/P.

If everyone gets a 6 second stacking Reveal then thieves will essentially go stealthless and without major changes to the class, stealthless thieves are not viable in Wvw.

So, Mr. Learn-to-adapt, show us a video of how your stealthless thief handles some decent Wvw players.

I could really care less about Thieves since I don’t play one and don’t have issues fighting them. I am simply pointing out that Anet seems to be catering to the massive cries for more counter play against Thieves. And seeing as Engineers weren’t particularly vulnerable to Thieves in the first place and the fact that they buffed the Ranger’s reveal as well, that provides an indication that they may have plans to give other professions a reveal mechanic as well.

Therefore the purpose of my post was to make two points. The first being that Thieves shouldn’t start bashing on Engineers as if this is something they asked for. The second being that complaining is silly at this point considering the changes for Thieves haven’t been announced yet.

Therefore, instead of collaborating on how this means the end of the stealth spam Thief, it makes much more since to simply wait and see what the future Point of Interest shows have in store for everyone. Hate me if you want, just laying out some common sense here to calm the uproar.

Shaogin.2679:

Therefore the purpose of my post was to make two points. The first being that Thieves shouldn’t start bashing on Engineers as if this is something they asked for. The second being that complaining is silly at this point considering the changes for Thieves haven’t been announced yet.

I don’t think anyone has the idea that Engineers in particular were asking for it, more the point that Engineer didn’t really need it. That said, it’s on a really crappy utility, so you’d have to make quite a compromise just to fit in Analyze. If they end up dishing out a revealed skill to all classes, it’ll be interesting to see if those are also placed on the less desirable utlities as well and just how much they’ll actually be seen in use.

It will also be interesting to see how this will work with PU mesmers simply because Decoy doesn’t work under the same conditions as revealed, so they can still be revealed and decoy for stealth.

Prysin.8542:

i’d like to point out that “the entire traitline” also houses another set of very powerful traits.
I have been running venomshare for a LONG time, it is OP in small groups. It used to be strong in WvW (when it still bypassed the Righteous Indignation buff), and even today it is strong (just slightly less).

Venoms have great uses, probably one of the strongest support functions a thiekittenittene. Now for PvP, you will lack the armor stats you need to make VS thief efficient (Dire stats). However you can still use settlers with great effect.

From a ranger perspective, Sic’em is pretty decent if you run BM with spiders. However if you run BM with birds or cats, Sic’em will either cancel the pet burst, or the pet burst will cancel sic’em. So to be honest, outside of using it for trolling, it is still not a good utility skill. Just slightly less terrible.
The biggest “issue” for thieves regarding the buffs hinted at for rangers is going to be;
Maul getting 220 range, thus harder to avoid it.
New GS blocking function
Rapid Fire cast time halved (pretty much like rapid fire with quickness is today)
LB minimum and medium damage buffed (rangers will probably hit for around 1.4-1.7k crits in melee range now against glassy thief builds)
Easier access to invuln, stability, damage boosters and might stacks.

Oh ya, IF you fight a ranger with Axe mainhand and a River Drake, DO NO USE THIEVES GUILD. The bounces from that axe will generate 25 stacks of might in an instant on the ranger and pet. That will be your downfall. cuz that drake (even with zero BM points) can easily dish out 6k+ bursts with 25 might stacks. And that drake burst is ranged, and homing and bounces (so guild NPC’s will act as amplifiers)

If they’d hit for only that, if the ranger is zerker, his lb aa crits anywhere from 2.5 to 4k on me and he doesn’t need might for that. Just to compare the numbers, I crit 2-3k on average with a rifle engi and HALF of engi’s dmg with a thief using pistol mainhand (both zerker builds).

On other note, faster rapid fire also means your dodges/evades/blocks/invulnerabilites will be more effective against it.

frans.8092:

If everyone gets a 6 second stacking Reveal then thieves will essentially go stealthless and without major changes to the class, stealthless thieves are not viable in Wvw.

So, Mr. Learn-to-adapt, show us a video of how your stealthless thief handles some decent Wvw players.

I cant resist to play devil’s advocate here. Wasn’t the major argument that endlessly resetting thieves that can always escape are fine because the game isnt balanced around WvW? Well now the wind has shifted.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

If they’d hit for only that, if the ranger is zerker, his lb aa crits anywhere from 2.5 to 4k on me and he doesn’t need might for that. Just to compare the numbers, I crit 2-3k on average with a rifle engi and HALF of engi’s dmg with a thief using pistol mainhand (both zerker builds).

You seem to forget that a magnet/prybar + all rifle skill combo of a zerker engi can down almost anything that isnt bunker

Mayama.1854:

frans.8092:

If everyone gets a 6 second stacking Reveal then thieves will essentially go stealthless and without major changes to the class, stealthless thieves are not viable in Wvw.

So, Mr. Learn-to-adapt, show us a video of how your stealthless thief handles some decent Wvw players.

I cant resist to play devil’s advocate here. Wasn’t the major argument that endlessly resetting thieves that can always escape are fine because the game isnt balanced around WvW? Well now the wind has shifted.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

If they’d hit for only that, if the ranger is zerker, his lb aa crits anywhere from 2.5 to 4k on me and he doesn’t need might for that. Just to compare the numbers, I crit 2-3k on average with a rifle engi and HALF of engi’s dmg with a thief using pistol mainhand (both zerker builds).

You seem to forget that a magnet/prybar + all rifle skill combo of a zerker engi can down almost anything that isnt bunker

I compared dmg on aa, what does that have to do with all wep set combos?

Jayden Ennok.3687:

I compared dmg on aa, what does that have to do with all wep set combos?

Because a zerker engi is not centred around autoattacking enemies

I have no problem with them getting revealed. I have a nig problem with rocket turret getting buffed. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to ANET. STOP with all the AI junk.

style.6173:

I have no problem with them getting revealed. I have a nig problem with rocket turret getting buffed. I don’t know how to make it any clearer to ANET. STOP with all the AI junk.

i will argue that turrets are barely AI at all. They only do ONE thing by themselves, that is attack. Their AI is mindboggingly simple “attack off cooldown? yes/no → hostile within range? yes/no → attack”

There is nothing more to it. No movement, no pathing, no secondary attacks. That is all they do on their own, one of the turrets doesnt even do that. What IS annoying is that supply crate allows for 2x of all turrets. THAT is a bit over the top.

@thread in general
I think, that new trait “Revealed Training” may come in handy IF rangers and engineers really do start to spam their skills though…. i mean, worst case scenario. you cannot stealth, but you get 200+ power instead… which makes a bad situation bad, for the enemy.