Guild Wars 2

How am I supposed to beat CND rogue with a necro?

I fought that CND rogue and what I managed to see from him was that he was wielding dagger offhand, dunno what his main hand was and a shortbow as off weapon.
Every time his health was going low he use his heal that stealth and/or teleport with his shortbow on higher edges or behind LoS so I had no clues where he disapeared most of the time.
When he was comming out of stealth, he basically attacked me once or twice then stealthed right away. My only root being a cast, I don’t even have time to root him and necro CC ain’t nothing to be feared. (See what I did there?)
Especially since thieves can steal us for a fear that last more then 2x longer then our traited fears… (Make sense)

So… how can I win against that? Aside from building full vitality/thoughness with maximum Life Force generation…

Edit: Also, is it still possible to perma stealth like rogue used to do 9 months ago? (CND everytime the stealth finish with a high initiative regen spec)

obvious troll is obvious.

LeGi.3921:

obvious troll is obvious.

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

You don’t have to deal with him, if he doesn’t want to fight you, though. If he fails to kill you, while you can still do something useful(and thus harmful to his team) it’s your win either way.

I am not trolling no. It’s hard enough not to write a post full of rage about stealth (I hate stealth in every PvP game that incorporate this utterly annoying concept of being invisible)

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

naphack.9346:

You don’t have to deal with him, if he doesn’t want to fight you, though. If he fails to kill you, while you can still do something useful(and thus harmful to his team) it’s your win either way.

I have to deal with him, if I don’t, he kill me since he’s full zerker and hit super hard even with very few hits and if I go away he freely capture our point. I just can’t get any hit on him since he’s always stealthed.

It was pretty obvious that guy was really good. I’m not bad myself and I felt like no matter what I did, I could never hit him.

Also, I don’t know how he did, but I got him down once without knowing it (He got downed in stealth) and next thing I know he appear about 15 seconds later with 95% of his downed health bar, healing himself up 10 feets from me and he never showed on my screen between the last time he went in stealth and when he came back with 95% of his downed. I barely had half a second to react and try to stop his healing, sadly I was too slow…
Maybe I missed something of what happened there or maybe it was a bug, I dunno, but I was certainly not happy to see this happen.

snaplemouton.1294:

I am not trolling no. It’s hard enough to to write a post full of rage about stealth (I hate stealth in every PvP game that incorporate this utterly annoying concept of being invisible)

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

its better you should ask in Necro’s forums not thieves because it will sound like your really trolling, Necros are not designed to go 1 on 1, thats thieves specialty. You must remember that CnD can be used from any where to ambient creatures and all.

and yes there is still that stealth but i wont call it perma.

snaplemouton.1294:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

Staff is the best pocket weapon against thieves and any melee,
and works really well with scepter/dagger

Place runes, which will grant you some steady damage while keeping additional cc with
Sc/d, and starting up some burst. Try to always dodge his CnD. Switch to staff again if it’s off cooldown when he restealths, and put out runes. You should have enough LF to Death Shroud and prevent any burst.

Don’t bother too much with long CD’s, if you have the right utilities to beat a thief
you only need to use them once anyways.

And yes, “perma stealth” is possible with D/P, and it’s pretty much same tactics just
that you need to focus a lot more on control skills like fear and the knockdown from elite minion.
Permas-stealth is however hard to startup and maintain while fighting. And you
always see the smokefield when the thief puts it out and heartseekers 1-4 times.
If one of the heartseeker hits after the first one does dmg, it breaks the stealth and causes reveal.

With the right build you are a direct counter to thieves as necromancer.

Edit: modified my post a bit.

I prefer posting on thief forum because I’d rather know what give thieves trouble when fighting necros then how necros beat thieves.

Ghostwolf.9863:

snaplemouton.1294:

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

Staff is the best pocket weapon against thieves and any melee,
and works really well with scepter/dagger

Place runes, which will grant you some steady damage while keeping additional cc with
Sc/d, and starting up some burst. Try to always dodge his CnD. Switch to staff again if it’s off cooldown when he restealths, and put out runes. You should have enough LF to Death Shroud and prevent any burst.

Don’t bother too much with long CD’s, if you have the right utilities to beat a thief
you only need to use them once anyways.

And yes, “perma stealth” is possible with D/P, and it’s pretty much same tactics just
that you need to focus a lot more on control skills like fear or stun from elite minion.
Permas-stealth is however hard to startup and maintain while fighting. And you
always see the smokefield when the thief puts it out and heartseekers 1-4 times.
If one of the heartseeker hits after the first one does dmg, it breaks the stealth and causes reveal.

With the right build you are a direct counter to thieves as necromancer.

I’ll try that thank you.

Edit: In response to the edit. I mostly wanted to know if perma stealth was still possible to know if rogues could still troll an entire zerg just by CND a player every time they come out of stealth.

I know you get a short debuff that doesn’t allow you to stealth after hitting someone in stealth but I don’t know if they made it also apply if you don’t hit anything and let the stealth finish.

snaplemouton.1294:

I prefer posting on thief forum because I’d rather know what give thieves trouble when fighting necros then how necros beat thieves.

I’ll try that thank you.

Edit: In response to the edit. I mostly wanted to know if perma stealth was still possible to know if rogues could still troll an entire zerg just by CND a player every time they come out of stealth.

I know you get a short debuff that doesn’t allow you to stealth after hitting someone in stealth but I don’t know if they made it also apply if you don’t hit anything and let the stealth finish.

I approve that you ask for advice here. A lot better than just complaining or trolling.
And it’s a thread about thieves mechanisms as much as how to setup a necromancer,
works well in both forums.

And nope, if stealth ends “naturally” it doesn’t apply reveal and he can cast CnD again.
Pets, minions will still start channeling attacks however. And if you are quick to cast before restealth, channeled attacks will chase the thief through stealth (life drain from dagger main hand for instance and other targeted casttime spells).
Melee, Runes, other groundtargeting and aoe’s will ofc always hit the thief as well if you can predict his position while in stealth.

This all together if the players are good and take advantage of it, makes trolling hard.
So is a skill issue of 20+ ppl if a thief can be in the middle of 20 ppl trolling with CnD.

Ghostwolf.9863:

And nope, if stealth ends “naturally” it doesn’t apply reveal and he can cast CnD again.
Pets, minions will still start channeling attacks however. And if you are quick to cast before restealth, channeled attacks will chase the thief through stealth (life drain from dagger main hand for instance and other targeted casttime spells).
Runes, other groundtargeting and aoe’s will ofc always hit the thief as well if you can
predict his position while in stealth.

I’ve got a lot of years of experience on my belt as a flare hunter in WoW.
On my elementalist I usually manage to AE CC, root or slow them but on my necro, aside from some damaging abilities, it’s near impossible to do anything harmful to a thief with AoE.

I usually don’t have much trouble against glass thieves, since I can get em in a short amount of time and most of the people make tons of mistakes when playing a thief, but when the thief is good, it seems near impossible to get anything on him/her.

lol this has got to be a troll or a post by someone who is brand new to the game…

snaplemouton.1294:

I’ve got a lot of years of experience on my belt as a flare hunter in WoW.
On my elementalist I usually manage to AE CC, root or slow them but on my necro, aside from some damaging abilities, it’s near impossible to do anything harmful to a thief with AoE.

I usually don’t have much trouble against glass thieves, since I can get em in a short amount of time and most of the people make tons of mistakes when playing a thief, but when the thief is good, it seems near impossible to get anything on him/her.

Says itself pretty much.

To defeat good players on any class you need tons of experience and knowledge about
what you are fighting. And against good players there is little room for mistakes,
dodge has to be used wisely against what you need it for and you need know
the several patterns and combos good players use to predict his next move and counter it, just like on WoW.

swinsk.6410:

lol this has got to be a troll or a post by someone who is brand new to the game…

My guess is that he played a bit after the release and went back to WoW and just started playing again.(based on post history)

After the release thieves were really strong and there was culling in WvW which made thieves and stealth particularly hard to fight.

Culling is however fixed and thieves have had a lot of nerfs.

I honestly don’t know necros that well (even if i did play for a while in sPVP) but tbh as a thief it’s probably one of the classes that fail to give me a challenge, and i don’t even run a perma stealth build.
I mean i’m sure there are good necros around I haven’t met that would give me something to think about but a thief usually has lots of cond removal (as soon as they enter stealth) anche can burst you down quickly.
Also, the fear they steal from you is incredibly powerful, so you might want to save your cond removal for that, elseway it will be a 2seconds of free dmg that, from a thief, is probably gonna be a good half of your health pool.
As someone said you better post it on the necro forum but yeh, i fell like thieves counter necros quite hard.
Someone above me said the opposite and again, i might be wrong and i just haven’t met many good necros (even though i have been playing for quite a while), but that was just my personal experience

Ghostwolf.9863:

My guess is that he played a bit after the release and went back to WoW and just started playing again.(based on post history)

I’ve played for 2 months after release and played the whole open beta and pre-release. I had 3 level 80s by the time I stopped and I played all classes in PvP more then enough to know every abilities and nearly every traits.
A lot have changed since then so I’m still trying to catch up with what I missed.
And no I havn’t returned to WoW.
WoW died to me with the release of cataclysm and was only really good in burning crusade.

My guess is that the one calling me troll is having trouble against necro and consider me a troll for asking advice on how to fight a thief with one.

I am far from being a bad player. If I’m asking for advice on my necro it’s because necro isn’t my main. It’s the fifth on my list. So as much as I’d love to be super pro with everything I touch, it’s not possible. So I ask for advice because I’m looking to become better?

Snaplemouton, you stated earlier that you have no clue what the thief did to you.

This last post you say you have played all classes in spvp to learn everything they can do.

How is it that you don’t know what this thief is doing to you but you claim to know everything about all classes and to be an experienced player?

Clearly one of your statements is a lie. I suggest you revisit the thief.

If you downed the thief in stealth and didn’t keep him down. That’s your own fault. L2p issue there. I down thieves all the time in stealth and maybe 1/1000 they can elude me, if that.

I’m not trying to be mean but you come here posting like thieves are this mystical class that brings death to anything they look at it and then on the other hand you tell us you are an experienced and great player. You are contradicting yourself.

My original assessment stands. You are either a noob or pve noob or you are trolling us.

snaplemouton.1294:

Ghostwolf.9863:

My guess is that he played a bit after the release and went back to WoW and just started playing again.(based on post history)

I’ve played for 2 months after release and played the whole open beta and pre-release. I had 3 level 80s by the time I stopped and I played all classes in PvP more then enough to know every abilities and nearly every traits.
A lot have changed since then so I’m still trying to catch up with what I missed.
And no I havn’t returned to WoW.
WoW died to me with the release of cataclysm and was only really good in burning crusade.

My guess is that the one calling me troll is having trouble against necro and consider me a troll for asking advice on how to fight a thief with one.

I am far from being a bad player. If I’m asking for advice on my necro it’s because necro isn’t my main. It’s the fifth on my list. So as much as I’d love to be super pro with everything I touch, it’s not possible. So I ask for advice because I’m looking to become better?

2 bits of advice knowing this: 1 go back to thief for a bit. Learn it’s traits and utilities again and the timing of the attacks. Learn where you need to be based on how long you’ve been in stealth. These things will let you anticipate the thief more. 2 ask on necro forums as well. It’s great that you asked here, and people have given you some good advice, but we can’t tell you from your perspective, what you might need to do. We can, like you said, tell you what gives us trouble, and that is aoes, stuns, and knockbacks, but a necro could tell you which skills fit that role against a thief the best. We know staff, but there is also a counter to staff that a good thief will use. A good necro may have advice (since you stated you don’t like staff) to kill a thief without staff. I’d suggest putting the same post on necro forums as well, to see what advice you get there, and combine the advice.

In practice, Necro kills the Thief not by CC or Fear – Thieves kill Thieves – the combination of Retaliation and Conditions gets the job done.

If you spec for the Spiteful Spirit trait (Spite – V), you can go in Death Shroud every time the Thief goes in Stealth. This tactic insures that the Thief’s Stealth Attack (i.e. Backstab) will serve them in a silver platter for you, because after that Stealth Attack, you have them for the full duration of the Revealed debuff.

The important thing here is, even if they didn’t Stealth Attack, it waste their stealth because your Retaliation lasts as long as their stealth. Even if they just re-stealth using CnD like you stated, they still get damage from Retaliation.

Now simply build around this by gearing with Buff Durations, Health Regen, etc.

As for weapon sets, I personally recommend Scepter/Warhorn + Staff vs Thieves. The Warhorn gives you the ability to keep your distance from the Thief and the ability to cripple them even in stealth. It also gives you the ability to chase them down if they try to run away.

But here’s the caveat, it requires a great deal of practice and knowledge on how you would juggle your cooldowns. You want to close any possible window in your build, because if you leave a window open, a Thief can get in and then you’re done. (See what I did there? ).

TL;DR: Death Shroud is your friend.

Death Shroud cant hit the Thief even in stealth with 4 and 5 as they hit in AoE and they dont need to target, if you can guess more or less where is, at 600 range you can root him, besides as they told you, Stakitten Marks and Spitfull Spirit you can more or less deal with him, another tool ys place your Wall and dance side to side to force him not to engage you.

You got some ways to deal with Thiefs that “perma” stealth, if that isnt enough, roll over thief a couple of times to get how a thief moves, just so you can guess how his going to move, some basic knowledge about a class ( in a practical way not in theory) helps alot to start dealing with them

swinsk.6410:

Snaplemouton, you stated earlier that you have no clue what the thief did to you.

This last post you say you have played all classes in spvp to learn everything they can do.

How is it that you don’t know what this thief is doing to you but you claim to know everything about all classes and to be an experienced player?

Clearly one of your statements is a lie. I suggest you revisit the thief.

If you downed the thief in stealth and didn’t keep him down. That’s your own fault. L2p issue there. I down thieves all the time in stealth and maybe 1/1000 they can elude me, if that.

I’m not trying to be mean but you come here posting like thieves are this mystical class that brings death to anything they look at it and then on the other hand you tell us you are an experienced and great player. You are contradicting yourself.

My original assessment stands. You are either a noob or pve noob or you are trolling us.

First of all, I didn’t know what he did to me because it was always coming from stealth.
Aside from the obvious like poison AE from shortbow, blink shot, CND, blind on stealth trait, heartseeker, Heal that stealth, roll for initiative, AE stealth utility, spin to win ult. The rest all came from stealth so I don’t know what the hell he was shooting at me.
Maybe you should learn how to read because I stated all of thoses in my posts.
Secondly, I clearly said that the thief never showed in my screen from the time he went stealth and when he appeared with 95% downed health healing straight in front of me. It’s either a bug or I missed something of what was going on. And I can hardly believe I missed something when he appeared out of the blues in an open area 5 feet from a capture point where I’ve been looking at for the past 10 seconds.

I never said thieves are a mythical class that kill everything they touch. Once again, go learn to read because I clearly said I roll thieves and only good one in CND spec give me trouble on my necro.

Now stop trying to dissect everything I say to misinterpret it into what you want it to be. You are not providing anything useful to the thread and merely trying to kitten me off, or to put it in your words, you are trolling.

You would need the necro chill build. Condi/chill duration. 8+ seconds of chill on 4 different skills. You won’t burst him down, but he sure as hell won’t kill you. Also, use a staff. He will be forced to switch to sb to hit you, but he won’t be in stealth when he does that.

When he CnDs you, count to 4 and dodge forward and turn around. Lay staff marks around you (staff 2 and 4) to keep him away or track when they pop for a location. He will unstealth. Use staff skill 5, staff 3, (burn all your marks now), swap to other weapon, scepter and/or axe depending on build, when chill almost gone, use chill on offhand focus.

If he somehow closes the gap, DS 2 + DS 3 right when it lands, roll away, keep cycling chill while doing damage.

You can do this for any melee class, but when you hit ranged, it is much less effective. Not useless, just less effective. You don’t have to change much from am typical condi build, just need to rethink how the enemy will play and what order to use skills in.

From: A necro who despises stealth.

Pls stealth res me thief, I love you unless your name is red!!!!!

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

snaplemouton.1294:

I am not trolling no. It’s hard enough to to write a post full of rage about stealth (I hate stealth in every PvP game that incorporate this utterly annoying concept of being invisible)

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

its better you should ask in Necro’s forums not thieves because it will sound like your really trolling, Necros are not designed to go 1 on 1, thats thieves specialty. You must remember that CnD can be used from any where to ambient creatures and all.

and yes there is still that stealth but i wont call it perma.

Every class should be equally good at 1v1 if they spec for it. If they can’t, then that class needs to be improved. 1v1 or teamfighting – each class should have the option to be equally good with either.

bhagwad.4281:

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

snaplemouton.1294:

I am not trolling no. It’s hard enough to to write a post full of rage about stealth (I hate stealth in every PvP game that incorporate this utterly annoying concept of being invisible)

Ghostwolf.9863:

Not necessarily.

Staff with runes and wells, direct counter to melee thieves.
The blinding well in particular is really annoying for dagger offhand thieves.

In condition builds chain fear and burst.
Minion builds are also pretty tough to fight as thief.

I’m condition heavy, but aside from having to use my utily wall, I need life force to go in death shroud for my fear.
And fear barely last long enough for me to land a hit.
I guess I’ll give a shot to the staff even tho I hate it with a passion, I guess the radius buff might make it more enjoyable.
I thought about the blind well, but on a 50 seconds CD he counters it with any stealth that isn’t CND.
And actually, the only time I nearly killed him was under my plague spamming bleed and blind, but then again he stealthed with one of his numerous stealth (He also had the ground AE stealth utility) and blinked with his bow… somewhere.
Also, I hate minion master.

Do you know if thieves can still perma stealth?

its better you should ask in Necro’s forums not thieves because it will sound like your really trolling, Necros are not designed to go 1 on 1, thats thieves specialty. You must remember that CnD can be used from any where to ambient creatures and all.

and yes there is still that stealth but i wont call it perma.

Every class should be equally good at 1v1 if they spec for it. If they can’t, then that class needs to be improved. 1v1 or teamfighting – each class should have the option to be equally good with either.

Well currently thief is worthless for team fighting. Maybe that should be improved first?

thieves would not even want to touch a good necros
staff alone is enough to keep that kind of thief at bay. With wells and deathshroud he would be destroyed if he tries to get through to you

I don’t know necros that well, and forgive me if some of this stuff has already been mentioned (just skimmed the thread).
1 – AOE hits thieves regardless of stealth, and you don’t need to see the thief. If it’s a CnD thief, then the only access to stealth is off of an enemy – which is likely you or your minions. So you can predict their location. CnD lasts 3-4 seconds, so wait 2 seconds, and you can be sure that a mark/well placed on you will probably hit.
2 – Thieves do have a lot of dodges, which can counter wells, as well as condition clears while in stealth. Still if you can get a fear on a thief out of stealth, it’s practically gg.
3 – channeled skills keep hitting the thief while they are in stealth. A lot of necro skills are channeled, which usually is bad, but in this case it’s solid. If you can start channeling in the seconds you see that thief, you’re good.
4 – death shroud negates the burst of thieves. If you get basilisk poisoned, the thief is setting up a burst, hit death shroud immediately, and you should be fine.
5 – thieves can’t afford to miss a lot of CnDs – though they can miss backstabs and be just fine. CnD is a longish animation with the dagger sweeping across the thieve’s body. If you can predict that – seeing the thief running toward you while unstealthed – then you can dodge.
6 – some thieves time their CnDs so they hit just as they get out of stealth-thereby getting no revealed debuff. This is either a defensive tactic (because they need to stay stealthed to stay alive), or just a troll strategy. If this is what they’re doing, you can be sure they’ll stick to you like glue, so just use those well strategies, or get used to counting to 4 after each CnD – and then dodge. If you have minions, then the thief might use them to stealth. In which case, maybe ignore the thief. Also maybe let the minions die, so the thief can’t use them as a free stealth anymore.

Good necros give me a lot of trouble on thief, so I think you should be good. There are of course thief builds that are very strong vs standard necro builds, so it could go either way.

snaplemouton.1294:

How am I supposed to beat CND rogue with a necro?

Sneeze.

i peronsally lose to them when i have lag :P

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

Dodge over staff marks and you suffer no effects, lich form does not have access to fear.

As a necro who also has a thief, I feel the main way to beat them is to fear burst them, if they are good they will stunbreak it strait away. a good d/p thief with correct stunbreak timings will be very hard to beat.

@drtrider

never spam 1 thru 5 around you. if you dodge roll 1 u dodge roll them all then ur out of 1-5 for nothing. do them close enough so but not too close where you can onlyh dodge roll one at a time! then you run around them until the thief triggers them. dodge roll yourself.

you can also do engie style and run in a straight line while casting them to your rear if the theif wants the kill he will have to pay for it.

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

^ doesn’t know that you can dodge roll to negate marks.

Omnitek.3876:

You would need the necro chill build. Condi/chill duration. 8+ seconds of chill on 4 different skills. You won’t burst him down, but he sure as hell won’t kill you. Also, use a staff. He will be forced to switch to sb to hit you, but he won’t be in stealth when he does that.

If I remember correctly, Choking Gas does not break stealth. I don’t use SB so I wouldn’t know, but I’ve seen a Thief spread CG while in stealth.

When he CnDs you, count to 4 and dodge forward and turn around.

lol, sorry but this is too funny.

What if the Thief attacked you at 0.5s? Or after 2s? Or 2.8s perhaps?

Within that 4s, you’re at the Thief’s mercy and the best you can do is what I suggest above. Spiteful Spirit + Death Shroud when they go in stealth.

From: A necro who despises stealth.

You hate it yet you have not learned from it. That’s just too bad. :/

Pls stealth res me thief, I love you unless your name is red!!!!!

lol, pure comedy!

Vincent, if a CND thief gets revealed debuff, I’m not worried about having to plan anything, it will be a pure fear/burst. He can stay and die or run and leave me alone. He can’t troll a stealth/bs build when he has revealed…

Also, about learning g stealth… Pls go. I have may hours on many characters. I am quite aware how it works, but thanks for contributing to helping the troll OP

Omnitek.3876:

Vincent, if a CND thief gets revealed debuff, I’m not worried about having to plan anything, it will be a pure fear/burst. He can stay and die or run and leave me alone. He can’t troll a stealth/bs build when he has revealed…

So what if he Stealth/Tactical Strike you? Then what?

Also, about learning g stealth… Pls go. I have may hours on many characters. I am quite aware how it works, but thanks for contributing to helping the troll OP

By you suggesting to count to 4 proves that you have not learn nor even improve your playstyle to deal with CnD. I can do a lot of things while in stealth, I can even extend it beyond 4s if I want to without using CnD.

You may know how it works, but your suggestion proves that you have no idea how to deal with it.

It just a matter of time that someone taking your suggestion to see for themselves that counting to 4 only leaves them open for anything.

By the way, my off-weapon-set is P/P instead of SB (main S/D), do you know why? I know the set sucks when it comes to damage, so why do I use it? Hmmm.

Vincent – the OP asked how to counter CnD. Not how to deal with thieves in general or backstab builds per-se. Since it wasn’t clear, some people focused on the fact that he was referring to CnD as a vehicle for near perma-stealth. If that’s what’s being done, then counting to 4 and dodging is a viable tactic, since they miss their CnD and have to blow a cooldown to stay stealthed. You’re right that they can still restealth, but it screws them up a bit, and it’s not hard to do. They can also backstab at any point, but as was mentioned, that reveals them, which makes them open to CC from the necro. Also I don’t believe a single backstab can take down even the glassiest of necro builds – as they tend to have lots of health. In either case, I don’t think anyone was recommending just standing completely still with no defenses and dodging every 4 seconds as the only strategy (although I sometimes do this as my mesmer tank build to draw thieves out).

Also to the OP, there are a few ways to permastealth. With D/P, use black powder, then heartseeker through it 3-4 times. You’ll see little red circles on the ground. This is not an efficient way to stealth, so it needs lots of initiative regen to work, which detracts from the damage of the build…these builds tend to be mediocre in damage output, but very good at getting away. Note they can’t hit anything with those heartseekers, or they get revealed. Also dropping an aoe on their red circles messes them up.

The other near perma-stealth option is CnD every 4 seconds. Technically this requires you to hit something every 4 seconds (which is easy with pets and minions running around). If the thief hits too early, they get revealed. If they wait to long, stealth might run out for a second or two, which gives you a chance to dodge the CnD, as you’ll see it coming (unless they do it off your minion).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Omnitek.3876:

Vincent, if a CND thief gets revealed debuff, I’m not worried about having to plan anything, it will be a pure fear/burst. He can stay and die or run and leave me alone. He can’t troll a stealth/bs build when he has revealed…

So what if he Stealth/Tactical Strike you? Then what?

Also, about learning g stealth… Pls go. I have may hours on many characters. I am quite aware how it works, but thanks for contributing to helping the trooll OP

By you suggesting to count to 4 proves that you have not learn nor even improve your playstyle to deal with CnD. I can do a lot of things while in stealth, I can even extend it beyond 4s if I want to without using CnD.

You may know how it works, but your suggestion proves that you have no idea how to deal with it.

It just a matter of time that someone taking your suggestion to see for themselves that counting to 4 only leaves them open for anything.

By the way, my off-weapon-set is P/P instead of SB (main S/D), do you know why? I know the set sucks when it comes to damage, so why do I use it? Hmmm.

My advice was for countering a stealth CnD troll. One who CnD right when stealth drops. I’m well aware that you can do something. Which requires a different set of skills/reactions. It would take a week to cover every single thing you can do and my possiblec ounter.

It was a 1 min write up to a question for 1 specific instance. No more. I’m aware it won’t work for every single thing you do. Jesus kittening Christ. You didn’t even read the op or my post did you? He didn’t say the thief did anything but hit him once or twice and dis appear. Nothing about being bursted down or stunned. Of course u can extend it past 4 seconds… But someone who is CND, bs, cnd over and over isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.

You can’t expect someone with basic knowledge (op) to jump into a masters degree in thief killing.

This is 101 stuff man. Start slow. Work on the fundimentals before you start with the AP classes.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

^ doesn’t know that you can dodge roll to negate marks.

must have forgot you can’t dodge forever therefore standing in marks being incredibly effective when combining chain fears/burns/torment.

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

lol Syl

Whatcha wanna do OP is space out your marks. Thieves HAVE to get close to you to cnd. But at the same time they can dodge the marks. Instead of stacking them in one spot, just move around a lot and place lots of marks. he either has to get close to you, or move to avoid your shiz.

Omnitek.3876:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Omnitek.3876:

Vincent, if a CND thief gets revealed debuff, I’m not worried about having to plan anything, it will be a pure fear/burst. He can stay and die or run and leave me alone. He can’t troll a stealth/bs build when he has revealed…

So what if he Stealth/Tactical Strike you? Then what?

Also, about learning g stealth… Pls go. I have may hours on many characters. I am quite aware how it works, but thanks for contributing to helping the trooll OP

By you suggesting to count to 4 proves that you have not learn nor even improve your playstyle to deal with CnD. I can do a lot of things while in stealth, I can even extend it beyond 4s if I want to without using CnD.

You may know how it works, but your suggestion proves that you have no idea how to deal with it.

It just a matter of time that someone taking your suggestion to see for themselves that counting to 4 only leaves them open for anything.

By the way, my off-weapon-set is P/P instead of SB (main S/D), do you know why? I know the set sucks when it comes to damage, so why do I use it? Hmmm.

My advice was for countering a stealth CnD troll. One who CnD right when stealth drops. I’m well aware that you can do something. Which requires a different set of skills/reactions. It would take a week to cover every single thing you can do and my possiblec ounter.

“It would take a week…” Really?

It was a 1 min write up to a question for 1 specific instance. No more. I’m aware it won’t work for every single thing you do. Jesus kittening Christ. You didn’t even read the op or my post did you? He didn’t say the thief did anything but hit him once or twice and dis appear. Nothing about being bursted down or stunned. Of course u can extend it past 4 seconds… But someone who is CND, bs, cnd over and over isn’t the sharpest tool in the shed.

What I’m pointing out is that your “4s counting tactic” don’t work and will never will – unless you have the gift of clairvoyance – otherwise you’re just suggesting that the OP waste their dodge . So whether you made your post in 1 minute or 1 year, you still gave a ridiculous and ineffective way in dealing with CnD.

You can’t expect someone with basic knowledge (op) to jump into a masters degree in thief killing.

Yet you offer the OP a doctorate degree in psychology and mind reading trying to predict when the Thief will CnD again.

The most basic thing to do is to have Retaliation and stay in Death Shroud. No counting. No mind reading. No mambo jumbo — and save the dodges on IMPORTANT things and not waste it HOPING to evade a stealth attack.

This is 101 stuff man. Start slow. Work on the fundimentals before you start with the AP classes.

Do you even realize the contradictions in your posts?

bobross.5034:

Vincent – the OP asked how to counter CnD. Not how to deal with thieves in general or backstab builds per-se. Since it wasn’t clear, some people focused on the fact that he was referring to CnD as a vehicle for near perma-stealth. If that’s what’s being done, then counting to 4 and dodging is a viable tactic, since they miss their CnD and have to blow a cooldown to stay stealthed. You’re right that they can still restealth, but it screws them up a bit, and it’s not hard to do. They can also backstab at any point, but as was mentioned, that reveals them, which makes them open to CC from the necro. Also I don’t believe a single backstab can take down even the glassiest of necro builds – as they tend to have lots of health. In either case, I don’t think anyone was recommending just standing completely still with no defenses and dodging every 4 seconds as the only strategy (although I sometimes do this as my mesmer tank build to draw thieves out).

Counting to 4 is never a viable tactic because you don’t have any knowledge on how the Thief is built before hand. What if his stealth only lasts 3s instead of 4? Or if he choose to extended it beyond 4s? You’ll look like an idiot wasting your dodges because you’re trying to be psychic.

Retaliation while in Death Shroud removes that guessing and the counting.

What I can’t believe is that you’re trying to defend an ineffective way to deal with CnD. There’s no merit in that tactic because it relies on luck and wastes valuable defensive resources.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Counting to 4 is never a viable tactic because you don’t have any knowledge on how the Thief is built before hand. What if his stealth only lasts 3s instead of 4? Or if he choose to extended it beyond 4s? You’ll look like an idiot wasting your dodges because you’re trying to be psychic.

Retaliation while in Death Shroud removes that guessing and the counting.

What I can’t believe is that you’re trying to defend an ineffective way to deal with CnD. There’s no merit in that tactic because it relies on luck and wastes valuable defensive resources.

I agree that counting is a pretty ineffective way, especially since not all thieves feel the need to wait out their stealth and are confident they can kill you without the extra initiatives. Also wasting a dodge as a Necro can be game breaking.

But Spiteful Spirit’s Retaliation kind of sucks for many Necros since many are Condition and have low Power.

And to OP, thieves can perma stealth without CnD. And they can kind of pseudo perma stealth with it.

A lot of confusion exist about this from non-thieves. Back then, you could stack stealth against walls (not players) with CnD while you were stealthed without causing reveal. Now you can’t, but you can still time CnD right after stealth ends on players for pseudo perma stealth (just like before.)

And some thieves still can do true perma stealths without CnD.

Tek.4083:

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

lol Syl

Whatcha wanna do OP is space out your marks. Thieves HAVE to get close to you to cnd. But at the same time they can dodge the marks. Instead of stacking them in one spot, just move around a lot and place lots of marks. he either has to get close to you, or move to avoid your shiz.

Hey man, it works great.

In all seriousness, Tek here is right. Understand that most thieve builds, involves them having to get close. Necros have amazing area control. Arguably some of the best in the game. Use this to your advantage. Be strategic with your wells, and dodge when they’re close. Also note that thieves rely on stealth, work to keep them out of it when they get low. Do that, and you’re golden.

Zeke Azul Falcon.5176:

Necros are not designed to go 1 on 1, thats thieves specialty. You must remember that CnD can be used from any where to ambient creatures and all.

and yes there is still that stealth but i wont call it perma.

Are we playing the same game ?
Since necro-OP patch a necro is godmode in 1v1 … and ambient creatures ?
There are some many ambient creatures in sPvp — really , the whole map is full of em.

Haley.2390:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Counting to 4 is never a viable tactic because you don’t have any knowledge on how the Thief is built before hand. What if his stealth only lasts 3s instead of 4? Or if he choose to extended it beyond 4s? You’ll look like an idiot wasting your dodges because you’re trying to be psychic.

Retaliation while in Death Shroud removes that guessing and the counting.

What I can’t believe is that you’re trying to defend an ineffective way to deal with CnD. There’s no merit in that tactic because it relies on luck and wastes valuable defensive resources.

I agree that counting is a pretty ineffective way, especially since not all thieves feel the need to wait out their stealth and are confident they can kill you without the extra initiatives. Also wasting a dodge as a Necro can be game breaking.

But Spiteful Spirit’s Retaliation kind of sucks for many Necros since many are Condition and have low Power.

I disagree. With Necro’s high Health pool, they can invest all their gears and items to improve their Power. Also with their Death Shroud mechanic, they really don’t have to worry much about their survivability, thus they can focus more on improving their damage output.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Haley.2390:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Counting to 4 is never a viable tactic because you don’t have any knowledge on how the Thief is built before hand. What if his stealth only lasts 3s instead of 4? Or if he choose to extended it beyond 4s? You’ll look like an idiot wasting your dodges because you’re trying to be psychic.

Retaliation while in Death Shroud removes that guessing and the counting.

What I can’t believe is that you’re trying to defend an ineffective way to deal with CnD. There’s no merit in that tactic because it relies on luck and wastes valuable defensive resources.

I agree that counting is a pretty ineffective way, especially since not all thieves feel the need to wait out their stealth and are confident they can kill you without the extra initiatives. Also wasting a dodge as a Necro can be game breaking.

But Spiteful Spirit’s Retaliation kind of sucks for many Necros since many are Condition and have low Power.

I disagree. With Necro’s high Health pool, they can invest all their gears and items to improve their Power. Also with their Death Shroud mechanic, they really don’t have to worry much about their survivability, thus they can focus more on improving their damage output.

Of course they can. That’s why I said it sucks for many Necros (those who choose not to get Power.) I didn’t say it sucked for all Necros. A lot go Rabid, so those don’t see it as a worthwhile option.

Haley.2390:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Haley.2390:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Counting to 4 is never a viable tactic because you don’t have any knowledge on how the Thief is built before hand. What if his stealth only lasts 3s instead of 4? Or if he choose to extended it beyond 4s? You’ll look like an idiot wasting your dodges because you’re trying to be psychic.

Retaliation while in Death Shroud removes that guessing and the counting.

What I can’t believe is that you’re trying to defend an ineffective way to deal with CnD. There’s no merit in that tactic because it relies on luck and wastes valuable defensive resources.

I agree that counting is a pretty ineffective way, especially since not all thieves feel the need to wait out their stealth and are confident they can kill you without the extra initiatives. Also wasting a dodge as a Necro can be game breaking.

But Spiteful Spirit’s Retaliation kind of sucks for many Necros since many are Condition and have low Power.

I disagree. With Necro’s high Health pool, they can invest all their gears and items to improve their Power. Also with their Death Shroud mechanic, they really don’t have to worry much about their survivability, thus they can focus more on improving their damage output.

Of course they can. That’s why I said it sucks for many Necros (those who choose not to get Power.) I didn’t say it sucked for all Necros. A lot go Rabid, so those don’t see it as a worthwhile option.

Yes you said “many” when it should be “some” because by simply checking the Necro forum, you’ll know that you should say “some.”

You say “many Necro” yet “a lot go Rabid.”

Either it sucks for “many” which implies they don’t take Rabid, or it doesn’t sucks for many because “a lot go Rabid.”

Which is it? You’re contradicting yourself here. :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I disagree. With Necro’s high Health pool, they can invest all their gears and items to improve their Power. Also with their Death Shroud mechanic, they really don’t have to worry much about their survivability, thus they can focus more on improving their damage output.

This phrase is hilarious,

a) Necromancer is by far the class with less survivability in this game,

b) A CnD thief would deplete a complete DS pool in matter of seconds, then any decent thief will reset the fight and come back to finish the job against a helpless necromancer,

Drtrider.6314:

Necro’s are OP as it is. Here, I have the perfect steps for you…

1. Pull out staff
2. Spam 1 through 5 around you
3. Stand in the middle of your circle of win
4. Go lych form and prema-fear every thing
5. Go on forums, cry about being under-powered
6. Win

¿?

The only “right” step in 1

2 – Marks cannot be spammed, and “1” in a staff is not a mark

3- Marks can be dodged, l2p buddy

4- Lych form and perma fear?

Good to know that thieves don’t need to know other classes in order to beat them,

lvis.3824:

Are we playing the same game ?
Since necro-OP patch a necro is godmode in 1v1 … and ambient creatures ?
There are some many ambient creatures in sPvp — really , the whole map is full of em.

…

I do not play a Necro, but my recommendation would be to use AoEs and apply as many conditions as possible.

necros cant beat range thieves but d/d and sometimes d/p they can. not sure about s/d as i havent played many necros on that