So let's talk about Black Powder

So let's talk about Black Powder

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

(Due to length, my first post is separated into 2 posts)

Before I proceed, let me first introduce myself. I am Exitus, and my main is a Thief named Exitus Peacemaker. I have been part of GW2 for about a year now, with a primary focus on PvP. I wouldn’t say I’m a pro by any means, but I have been told by a few people that I have some skill with the class that I main, enough for me to make several Video Guides on the Thief specifically. I haven’t made a video in a long time, mainly because I haven’t had the time to do it. The last video I made was when I was still running D/D and the Shortbow. I finally decided to go D/P after the buffs made to the Thief’s base Initiative regeneration in this meta where protection is based around how much you can dodge or how many blinds you can spam. It’s really hard to make Cloak and Dagger work in a meta like that. Now, before anyone starts screaming “omg noob QQing on the forums trying to defend his class,” I am NOT here to complain, but rather point some things out and get some records straight. Thus, I will try and keep what I say neutral. Now let’s move on.

I’m assuming anyone reading this post knows what ANet did to Black Powder, so I won’t discuss the change itself. If you aren’t familiar with the changes, I would go familiarize yourself with them now.

I would rather discuss the reaction to the nerf. I took a while to think about it and this is what I have come up with: Whether or not the nerf was warranted, I can see why ANet went this direction. As someone who plays D/P in PvP, I can attest to the fact that if I am fighting a target who mainly uses a melee attack, I nearly always win simply because of the protection Black Powder offered. The only things that could effectively kill me are strong bursts from nowhere when I have no initiative or utility skills ready, which is rare, or by strong AoE spam, which is much more common in this meta. In short, we were pretty much encouraging a meta where people are forced to play AoE condition damage spam. However, actual melee attackers didn’t really have a strong chance against Black Powder if the Thief managed to position himself correctly. There was not much timing involved. It was up to the Thief’s opponent to tap dance around the Black Powder field or stand perfectly on the outside of the ring to hit the Thief (which did/does happen), or to switch to a ranged attack. Waiting for the cloud to wear off was out of the question because we know that the Thief would be leaping through it for stealth before it wore off.

I know there are a ton of people out there arguing that Black Powder should not have been touched because players could just sit on the outside of the ring and hit us anyway. I say to you people that this logic only says that it doesn’t matter if the blind field had 1 blind or 1000 blinds, it won’t make a difference either way if you are up against someone who knows what they are doing. So that argument doesn’t hold up to scrutiny in this particular context.

EDIT: Removed a paragraph due to a misunderstanding on my part.

(edited by Exitus.3297)

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

(Part 2)

I have seen people telling ANet to either reverse the nerf or to lower the Initiative cost from 6 to 5. To the people asking for the reversal, it isn’t going to happen, not even in PvE. In PvE we all know if the target could be blinded, we could pretty much take it down 100-0 without it touching us. This will make the gameplay more reactive in that regard instead of mindlessly sitting in the field, and that same principal can be applied to PvP in a way, in addition to my reasons stated earlier in this post. To the people asking for a cost in reduction, I can see where you are coming from. If an ability’s value is going to be lowered, then its cost should be lowered too. Unfortunately, this route would create more problems than it would solve. S/P and P/P barely used BP as it was, and will likely use it even less now except in extreme circumstances. Lowering the Initiative cost to 5 won’t change the fact that P/P Thieves are going to continue spamming Unload, especially with the buffs, and S/P Thieves are going to continue spamming Pistol Whip anyway. The primary set affected would be D/P, and right now people are already complaining about their “perma-stealth.” I know the stealth isn’t actually permanent, but it is very reliable, with the only thing keeping it in line is that it is Initiative heavy. Lowering the Initiative cost would essentially be removing this handicap, or making it a ton easier. I remember how a long time ago, before the buffs to our base Initiative regeneration, the only way the build could even be played is if you got several traits that restored Initiative because people knew the build was strong, but it required a lot of resources which is what kept it in line. What I am trying to say is that it isn’t going to happen.

But there is one thing that I wanted to take a look at. A lot of people have been saying that players could simply stand on the edge of the ring and still hit the Thief with a melee attack. I don’t even have to take a leap of faith to say that I know this has been a problem, and will continue to be a problem. Something ANet may consider is increasing the radius of the blind field. What would this accomplish? The blind field would be more reliable to actually defend ourselves against melee attacks. Our opponent will no longer have the option of dancing on the out edge of the circle and still hitting us. They will have to decide to either find a way to hit us with a ranged attack, wait for the cloud to wear off, or enter the cloud and have a few of their attacks miss. This will make us more of an asset in team fights with the cloud being bigger, and will also allow the Thief to better manage positioning himself in and around the field just as ANet intended with the nerf to begin with, as well as making it easier to apply that now more important first blind aoe when you first apply the field. This change will be attractive to all 3 offhand pistol set. It could happen, but good Thieves usually know to position themselves with the cloud.

There are other quality of life changes that could be made that I have kind of thought about. The first is to increase the damage of the Black Powder shot itself a little bit. Right now the damage on it is laughable. I know it isn’t really meant to do damage, but it may be more attractive to P/P builds if it does happen, without making the other 2 sets go too overboard. A second way is to improve the cast time of Black Powder. Right now the cast time on it is slow. I swear I see a glacier go by every time I cast it. Having it on a lower cast time would be nice, but I don’t really foresee it solving any problems. It is an option I have heard around, though, and it isn’t too unreasonable.

That is the end of my wall of text. If anyone wants to discuss this further, I am open to it.

EDIT: removed specific range ideas after realizing I am not in fact a Dev.

(edited by Exitus.3297)

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

I also know there are people out saying this is a hit to P/P and S/P Thieves as well. In all honesty, if you are running P/P and you are using Black Powder to defend yourself from melee attacks, then you are already doing it wrong. As a P/P Thief you shouldn’t be in melee range of ANYTHING. Every P/P Thief that I know is good knows this. which is why you will rarely see them using Black Powder. They would rather be using Unload.

It seems that you really believe this so I will leave you to your own delusion.

It’s one thing to deny the facts about the negative effect of BP to P/P and one thing to wrongly assume that all P/P users are OK with this.

If P/P Thief “shouldn’t be in melee range of ANYTHING” how do you do that by “rather be using Unload”?

Whatever. A wall of kitten is a slippery slope, thus I refuse to go any further.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

So let's talk about Black Powder

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

I also know there are people out saying this is a hit to P/P and S/P Thieves as well. In all honesty, if you are running P/P and you are using Black Powder to defend yourself from melee attacks, then you are already doing it wrong. As a P/P Thief you shouldn’t be in melee range of ANYTHING. Every P/P Thief that I know is good knows this. which is why you will rarely see them using Black Powder. They would rather be using Unload.

It seems that you really believe this so I will leave you to your own delusion.

It’s one thing to deny the facts about the negative effect of BP to P/P and one thing to wrongly assume that all P/P users are OK with this.

If P/P Thief “shouldn’t be in melee range of ANYTHING” how do you do that by “rather be using Unload”?

1: I never said P/P users are okay with the nerf. I said they don’t use Black Powder that often because they would rather be kiting than sitting in the Black Powder field.

2: Your second point about using Unload and being in melee range has no relation to eachother. You’re asking me how a P/P thief shouldn’t be in melee range of anything if they would rather be using Unload? I don’t honestly see the point to that question. A P/P thief in melee range ALSO using unload is probably getting his face smashed in. Unless you used Black Powder, in which case you will have enough initiative for 1 Unload, and another a few seconds later, in which case you will have no initiative for anther Black Powder. In short, if a P/P Thief is going to choose between a lot damage + kite or some damage and a blind field (that people complain is too small anyway), they are going to pick the former purely for the sake of being safe and on the run. They aren’t going to use an ability that ties them to one spot for a long time.

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Posted by: Narkodx.1472

Narkodx.1472

I think your analysis is pretty spot on – as a D/P user I obviously use BP a ton and love the skill

After a few weeks I think the skill is still very strong but no longer OP – Increasing the radius and/or decreasing after/pre cast would be nice but I do not think it is necessary

BP is in a nice place right now

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

1: I never said P/P users are okay with the nerf. I said they don’t use Black Powder that often because they would rather be kiting than sitting in the Black Powder field.

If they rather kite and spam Unload, then they are OK to whatever happens to BP.

How is that answer differ to what I’ve posted?

2: Your second point about using Unload and being in melee range has no relation to eachother. You’re asking me how a P/P thief shouldn’t be in melee range of anything if they would rather be using Unload? I don’t honestly see the point to that question.

It’s a testament that you don’t use P/P nor you know anyone “who is good” uses P/P.

You see, the real P/P users know that if you spam Unload, enemies will get in melee range.

This is the undeniable fact and proof that you have no idea on what you’re talking about.

A P/P thief in melee range ALSO using unload is probably getting his face smashed in. Unless you used Black Powder, in which case you will have enough initiative for 1 Unload, and another a few seconds later, in which case you will have no initiative for anther Black Powder. In short, if a P/P Thief is going to choose between a lot damage + kite or some damage and a blind field (that people complain is too small anyway), they are going to pick the former purely for the sake of being safe and on the run. They aren’t going to use an ability that ties them to one spot for a long time.

What you fail to understand is that, if you spam Unload for “a lot of damage” you don’t get to kite anyone.

Your argument fails only because you don’t understand the fundamentals of P/P and falls into the Unload trap.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: Menzies The Heretic.3415

Menzies The Heretic.3415

Decrease the pre-cast and the skill would be more usefull right now.

* Twitch – Mênzîes – Mesmer pvp
* YouTube – Fun, guides and gameplay

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

I can see both sides of the argument. What I see it as is, it used to carry you a LOT, now it takes some skill to use. While I can see why a p/p user or even s/p user would be affected a lot by this change, d/p doesn’t totally rely on BP since you have Headshot, shadow shot, and stealth. P/P I can see why people are upset, but P/P isn’t that good anyways (it can be with the right build and skill) and S/P has pistol whip.

And to anybody who disagrees with somebody else, please be respectful about it. Don’t say “you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about”. Taking other people’s opinions into consideration can be very helpful, and all of them matter.

So that’s just my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.

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Posted by: Dagins.5163

Dagins.5163

Of course P/P uses BP, especially with warrior’s axe for combined (precious) defense and offense, not to mention stomping. With d/p, you can HS into stealth, securing your stomp, but with P/P (and also S/P) you lack this utility.

Just another wrong nerf; devs should make it pulse once per second for 1 sec blind, this would nerf BP spam while also leaving S/P and P/P in good shape. These unreliable stomps are irritating, added more unwanted randomization into the game.

Similar problem is with LDB and shortbow #3, where these evade frames are too short, and successful evading is more about RNG than actual skill.

Signed, level 1 alt

(edited by Dagins.5163)

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

1: I never said P/P users are okay with the nerf. I said they don’t use Black Powder that often because they would rather be kiting than sitting in the Black Powder field.

If they rather kite and spam Unload, then they are OK to whatever happens to BP.

How is that answer differ to what I’ve posted?

2: Your second point about using Unload and being in melee range has no relation to eachother. You’re asking me how a P/P thief shouldn’t be in melee range of anything if they would rather be using Unload? I don’t honestly see the point to that question.

It’s a testament that you don’t use P/P nor you know anyone “who is good” uses P/P.

You see, the real P/P users know that if you spam Unload, enemies will get in melee range.

This is the undeniable fact and proof that you have no idea on what you’re talking about.

A P/P thief in melee range ALSO using unload is probably getting his face smashed in. Unless you used Black Powder, in which case you will have enough initiative for 1 Unload, and another a few seconds later, in which case you will have no initiative for anther Black Powder. In short, if a P/P Thief is going to choose between a lot damage + kite or some damage and a blind field (that people complain is too small anyway), they are going to pick the former purely for the sake of being safe and on the run. They aren’t going to use an ability that ties them to one spot for a long time.

What you fail to understand is that, if you spam Unload for “a lot of damage” you don’t get to kite anyone.

Your argument fails only because you don’t understand the fundamentals of P/P and falls into the Unload trap.

What you fail to understand are 2 things:

1: You can dodge between Unloads.

2: They just increased the speed of Unload. Meaning you can squeeze in more shots or a full unload before dodging.

I am pretty sure that is why ANet did that.

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

Decrease the pre-cast and the skill would be more usefull right now.

It would definitely give more on-the-fly usage to the skill. It would also be attractive to all 3 sets.

It’s something to think about for sure.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

What you fail to understand are 2 things:

1: You can dodge between Unloads.

That is the most kittenty reply ever.

2: They just increased the speed of Unload. Meaning you can squeeze in more shots or a full unload before dodging.

I am pretty sure that is why ANet did that.

Heh, “pretty sure” is enough proof that your post is filled with nonsense.

If you have no idea on how P/P works or what is the effect of speeding up Unload, why do you keep on going if all you have are nonsense after nonsense?

Yeah, well that’s enough attention.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: alchemyst.2165

alchemyst.2165

Oh god, I think this is turning into a P/P argument.

So let's talk about Black Powder

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

What you fail to understand are 2 things:

1: You can dodge between Unloads.

That is the most kittenty reply ever.

2: They just increased the speed of Unload. Meaning you can squeeze in more shots or a full unload before dodging.

I am pretty sure that is why ANet did that.

Heh, “pretty sure” is enough proof that your post is filled with nonsense.

If you have no idea on how P/P works or what is the effect of speeding up Unload, why do you keep on going if all you have are nonsense after nonsense?

Yeah, well that’s enough attention.

Okay now I’m sure you are just a troll.

They sped up unload so the Thief can pump out more shots in a shorter amount of time, which can have many benefits, one of which is getting off more shots before dodging.

If every post you make is seriously just going to be an attempt to throw garbage rather than actually contribute to a discussion, then don’t post. This is my last reply to you until you actually contribute something positive

So let's talk about Black Powder

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

I can see both sides of the argument. What I see it as is, it used to carry you a LOT, now it takes some skill to use. While I can see why a p/p user or even s/p user would be affected a lot by this change, d/p doesn’t totally rely on BP since you have Headshot, shadow shot, and stealth. P/P I can see why people are upset, but P/P isn’t that good anyways (it can be with the right build and skill) and S/P has pistol whip.

And to anybody who disagrees with somebody else, please be respectful about it. Don’t say “you obviously have no idea what you’re talking about”. Taking other people’s opinions into consideration can be very helpful, and all of them matter.

So that’s just my opinion, feel free to agree or disagree.

That is a generally good way to look at it. In all honesty I do not see P/P or S/P Thieves use Black Powder that often. I used to run P/P and I rarely used BP as a defense to melee unless I got immobilized. Otherwise I usually just stayed on the move. S/P as you said are just going to use Pistol Whip because they don’t really have the initiative to use BP and PW without going through their entire initiative bar and are left standing there in the cloud.

Although, PW could be a good way to waste time between each blind tick on BP because of the evasion. It’s something to think about.

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Posted by: TeamBattleAxe.3901

TeamBattleAxe.3901

I don’t have any strong feelings on it either way. The old BP was somewhat exploitable in certain situations, but the radius is too small to really be OP. The new BP still provides that nice instant aoe blind, but takes away the passive nature of simply sitting in the field and letting it work for you.

In fact, I think I’d actually prefer the new BP if it wasn’t so expensive to use. I always thought it was kind of strange that BP carried such a high ini cost. The better way to keep stealth in check should’ve been to increase the ini cost of Heartseeker and Clusterbomb so you’d have to choose between using those skills for damage or utility.

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Posted by: Sir Vincent III.1286

Sir Vincent III.1286

What you fail to understand are 2 things:

1: You can dodge between Unloads.

That is the most kittenty reply ever.

2: They just increased the speed of Unload. Meaning you can squeeze in more shots or a full unload before dodging.

I am pretty sure that is why ANet did that.

Heh, “pretty sure” is enough proof that your post is filled with nonsense.

If you have no idea on how P/P works or what is the effect of speeding up Unload, why do you keep on going if all you have are nonsense after nonsense?

Yeah, well that’s enough attention.

Okay now I’m sure you are just a troll.

They sped up unload so the Thief can pump out more shots in a shorter amount of time, which can have many benefits, one of which is getting off more shots before dodging.

P/P Fundamentals
1) It’s never a guarantee that all your shots from Unload will hit the target while kiting.
2) Spamming Unload does nothing for DPS since the initiative recharge remains the same.
3) Spamming Unload allowed for faster depletion of initiative, nothing else.
4) Spamming Unload makes you susceptible to reflect.
5) Sinking all your initiative in Unload will leave no initiative left for defensive skills, thus the Unload trap.
6) Thieve’s weapon skill do not have individual cooldowns like other weapon skills.
7) Any real good Thief knows (not the kind of Thief you know) that it’s never a good idea to spam Unload unless someone else is watching your back.
8) Dodging is reserved for big attacks, not to deal with auto-attacks.
9) Body Shot is used to create gap, not dodge.
10) BP is the only skill that can save a P/P from fast attacking melee auto-attacks.

If every post you make is seriously just going to be an attempt to throw garbage rather than actually contribute to a discussion, then don’t post. This is my last reply to you until you actually contribute something positive

The only garbage here is that wall of text. Too much words, too many nonsense.

The best idea that you highlighted is to increase the area of effect, which will do nothing if the pulse rate remains the same.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and post something positive by actually acknowledging the major negative impact to P/P with the recent nerf to BP instead of trying to brush it off.

Reply or not, I don’t really care at this point.

http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning…there was Tarnished Coast…
Full set of 5 unique skills for both dual-wield weapon sets: P/P and D/D – Make it happen
PvE – DD/CS/AC – If that didn’t work, roll a Reaper or Revenant.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

P/P uses BP. Actually, I’d argue they’re more dependent on it as a defensive mechanism on blind than D/P seeing as they have no stealth access for re-positions and no gap-openers except for shadowstep.

That said, the nerf was warranted. OP is right in terms of how ridiculous the skill was and how it led to really poor gameplay on both sides of the argument. My full-cleric healing power bunker P/P blindspam thief build had never lost a fight before the nerf, and during my guild’s sPvP events was declared the most frustrating and difficult build to fight against of all of the classes, and let an unskilled sPvP scrub like myself play and beat highly ranked opponents. People argue you can hit through BP, but if you seriously let your opponent, you’re bad.

The issue is that P/P needs buffs elsewhere to compensate; frankly, the set has no sustaining/kiting power and too much initiative consumption to really warrant its use. Unload is finnicky and the rest of the set is too powerful for the other sets using the weapons to warrant number buffs elsewhere. The weapon set will remain a terrible one without some really crazy redesigns for the entire thief set or significant trait/utility skill overhauls.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

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Posted by: Exitus.3297

Exitus.3297

What you fail to understand are 2 things:

1: You can dodge between Unloads.

That is the most kittenty reply ever.

2: They just increased the speed of Unload. Meaning you can squeeze in more shots or a full unload before dodging.

I am pretty sure that is why ANet did that.

Heh, “pretty sure” is enough proof that your post is filled with nonsense.

If you have no idea on how P/P works or what is the effect of speeding up Unload, why do you keep on going if all you have are nonsense after nonsense?

Yeah, well that’s enough attention.

Okay now I’m sure you are just a troll.

They sped up unload so the Thief can pump out more shots in a shorter amount of time, which can have many benefits, one of which is getting off more shots before dodging.

P/P Fundamentals
1) It’s never a guarantee that all your shots from Unload will hit the target while kiting.
2) Spamming Unload does nothing for DPS since the initiative recharge remains the same.
3) Spamming Unload allowed for faster depletion of initiative, nothing else.
4) Spamming Unload makes you susceptible to reflect.
5) Sinking all your initiative in Unload will leave no initiative left for defensive skills, thus the Unload trap.
6) Thieve’s weapon skill do not have individual cooldowns like other weapon skills.
7) Any real good Thief knows (not the kind of Thief you know) that it’s never a good idea to spam Unload unless someone else is watching your back.
8) Dodging is reserved for big attacks, not to deal with auto-attacks.
9) Body Shot is used to create gap, not dodge.
10) BP is the only skill that can save a P/P from fast attacking melee auto-attacks.

If every post you make is seriously just going to be an attempt to throw garbage rather than actually contribute to a discussion, then don’t post. This is my last reply to you until you actually contribute something positive

The only garbage here is that wall of text. Too much words, too many nonsense.

The best idea that you highlighted is to increase the area of effect, which will do nothing if the pulse rate remains the same.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and post something positive by actually acknowledging the major negative impact to P/P with the recent nerf to BP instead of trying to brush it off.

Reply or not, I don’t really care at this point.

I think you are taking it personally here. I never once said that P/P received no impact from the nerf. Just less impact than the other 2 sets. The fact of the matter is that a P/P thief will try their hardest to put themselves in a position where they don’t have to use BP because of how much of initiative they would use when they could be using another ability, such as Unload (the most obvious decision for damage). In short, they will likely use it. They just don’t want to HAVE to use it.

If you are talking about general protection from melee, then P/P was hit just as hard as the other 2 sets in terms of raw protection from melee, and all 3 sets will see the effects of the nerf.

I hope that clears things up. Just to make you feel better, I also removed the “garbage” paragraph due to my own mistake. Perhaps I did jump the gun on that.

(edited by Exitus.3297)