Guild Wars 2

forum bug

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

Kolly.9872:

What about fixing withdraw so that it actually heal with a 10% increase?
What about to give to Ankle Shot that 10% dmg increase as shown in the tooltip?

I hope Karl sees this.

Completely missed the mark on this one.

We asked for pre-cast delay to be removed from Vital Shot, they give us damage buff.

Sign of how clueless they are.

And if what Karl has posted is to be believed — which I’m getting more skeptical by the day — this issue would be resolved…but I highly doubt it when they show less competence for each patch they make.

However, all credit to Karl for actually studying and learning the profession so that we can get a meaningful patch — something that actually improves the profession instead of nerfing it to the ground.

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

“In the future..”
How long out would you say that is? A month? half a year?
I’m seeing people dropping the class left and right, we are losing our presents in the game. So.. Could we maybe see a road-map for the classes planned evolution? I don’t believe that’s too unreasonable. Right?

The part of p/p Unload that people continue to miss is that it 8 shots in a short period of time and builds are designed around that.

Such as SOM. Such as might stack sigils. Such as Foods that stack might. Those extra attacks that occur in 1.5 seconds will assure all manner of sigil/food/trait procs which will not happen were this dropped to 4 shots and the power moved to AA.

Sundering strikes as example is pretty pointless as a trait unless one is making a high number of attacks in a short period of time. Now one can argue that it a trait that is lacking now but even were the number of stacks incresed to two per or the durations increased it attacks like Unload that maximize the return on such a trait (I still think Vuln should move to Unload).

If I want health in short order I and have the normal crit rate and am traited IP , I am certain to get some health back on each and every unload whereas an attack costing just as much in INI and hitting even harder can not guarantee that.

I can stack might off Sigil of strength faster. I can get health from omnomberry ghost more reliably.

If you want to use P/P to the best of effect it acts very much like heartseeker. yes there people who will spam heartseeker but unless the enemy running or near dead it a poor tactical move burning off ini to get that high damage hit. the same applies to Unload. Yes you can sit there and spam it till you are out of ini but then what?

Unload is far more than just an animation. It helps to separate the p/p build from other weapon sets and I would rather not see weaponsets made to look more and more alike so that the style of combat is the same no matter what set one picks up.

leave it as a high Ini high burst type damage where you either take a persons health down quickly so it under 50 percent and you can get those under 50 percent kickins such as executioner or you use it to finish off someone that is on his last 10 percent of health.

The set needs something else in position number 2 and perhaps a lowering of the AA to 1/3 of second and I think it where it needs to be.

From a purely solo, PvE adventuring point of view, P/P Thief is by far my favourite class; largely due to Unload working exactly as is. So I’m firmly in the ‘Please don’t change it!’ camp.

As mentioned above, it isn’t just a fun and cool animation but the sheer number of shots allow more balanced and versatile build options (putting some points into survivability and a little Condition Damage too; shaving off some points from Precision and Ferocity), whilst still pretty much guaranteeing that all your ‘on Crit’ buffs to damage and healing will proc from Unload.

I have some thoughts about the other skills, but don’t want to dilute my main, passionate point:-

Please leave Unload as is… and I agree; please make Vital Shot fire a tad faster. Other than that, you guys can do what you want with skills 2, 4 and 5 – have at it!

Karl

Could you please bring back ricochet and opportunist?

Please please bring them back.

if you have any constructive ideas ive started a post to compile them all

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/lets-be-so-constructive-it-actually-hurts/first#post5553726

Maugetarr.6823:

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

The thing is, I understand fully what you’re after, but what we’re after are two completely different things. Two different playstyles. What you want, is for P/P to turn into an AA based dps/utility set, with 3 utility skills + 1 gap opener that would be used more often than currently. What I’m after, is a dps that actually engages me into controlling said DPS level, by controlling the level of the burst and the speed of the burst that Unload provides in its current state. I have never, ever liked any DPS in any game, that gives me just pure utility and an autoattack. Its a personal preference, but I want solid control over my DPS, on how quickly or slowly I’m dishing it out. Its a different form of utility in the PvP scene. With that in mind, I’ve been suggesting things that would leave this playstyle intact, while still trying make changes that would benefit everyone playing the set aswell. You’re just on the opposite side of the fence, where you’re used to(Or its your preferred playstyle.) AA being the primary/only source of reliable damage and then the rest being utility. Its not about any animation, its about interaction with the weaponset and how to utilize it. I dislike what you’re after and you dislike what I’m after, which has become quite obvious. :P In that sense, there’s no point in us arguing as we’re both just after different things to make the set playable in the playstyles we prefer it. Have to say though, it’s been a nice change to have an “argument” without the usual “screaming, shouting, ranting and name calling”.

Also, just for arguments sake, Unload doesn’t sink in initiative that could be used elsewhere. Any player worth his/her weight will use the other skills, primarily Head Shot and Black Powder in this case, when its called for and drop the dps as a priority. Its a choice that’s forced onto the player and I personally like that fact that you’re forced to make choices, instead of having the ability to have both worlds unhindered. What I don’t like is that currently the tradeoff is still a little bit too large, which could be solved by increasing the cast speed of Vital Shot to 1/3s, removing the pre-cast animation for Vital Shot or by taking the pre-cast animation into account when designing the cast speed and actual firing animation speed. To prevent things from looking silly, hands could alternative between firing the weapon, so the animations wouldn’t look too rushed, or alternatively, change to animation to have the firing hand stay up and in firing position, only doing the recoil twitch between firing rounds.

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

@ Shimekiri let me explain why unload is bad in another way that may make it more apparent why I think unload is bad.

Per shot, vital shot has a 0.5 multipler now (with minor bleed). Shot to Shot this results in a 0.61 multiplier per second damage output.

Per shot, Unload is a 0.38ish multiplier now. Accounting for 5 initiative recharge over 5 seconds, it has a 0.60 multiplier per second.

Unload is literally adding nothing to the set except firing a weaker autoattack faster. The only thing it’s adding is a cool animation. By moving some of the damage to auto, and then changing the functionality of unload, you’d have a stronger, more competitive set. Don’t get me wrong, the new #3 could have some burst in it like I’ve explained, but right now Unload does nothing except for substitute for a poor autoattack while sinking initiative into it that should be used somewhere else.

If you like unload and the current playstyle of pistols, I would say the better thing to ask for is a change to the animation of vital shot when 2 pistols are being used.

The thing is, I understand fully what you’re after, but what we’re after are two completely different things. Two different playstyles. What you want, is for P/P to turn into an AA based dps/utility set, with 3 utility skills + 1 gap opener that would be used more often than currently. What I’m after, is a dps that actually engages me into controlling said DPS level, by controlling the level of the burst and the speed of the burst that Unload provides in its current state. I have never, ever liked any DPS in any game, that gives me just pure utility and an autoattack. Its a personal preference, but I want solid control over my DPS, on how quickly or slowly I’m dishing it out. Its a different form of utility in the PvP scene. With that in mind, I’ve been suggesting things that would leave this playstyle intact, while still trying make changes that would benefit everyone playing the set aswell. You’re just on the opposite side of the fence, where you’re used to(Or its your preferred playstyle.) AA being the primary/only source of reliable damage and then the rest being utility. Its not about any animation, its about interaction with the weaponset and how to utilize it. I dislike what you’re after and you dislike what I’m after, which has become quite obvious. :P In that sense, there’s no point in us arguing as we’re both just after different things to make the set playable in the playstyles we prefer it. Have to say though, it’s been a nice change to have an “argument” without the usual “screaming, shouting, ranting and name calling”.

Also, just for arguments sake, Unload doesn’t sink in initiative that could be used elsewhere. Any player worth his/her weight will use the other skills, primarily Head Shot and Black Powder in this case, when its called for and drop the dps as a priority. Its a choice that’s forced onto the player and I personally like that fact that you’re forced to make choices, instead of having the ability to have both worlds unhindered. What I don’t like is that currently the tradeoff is still a little bit too large, which could be solved by increasing the cast speed of Vital Shot to 1/3s, removing the pre-cast animation for Vital Shot or by taking the pre-cast animation into account when designing the cast speed and actual firing animation speed. To prevent things from looking silly, hands could alternative between firing the weapon, so the animations wouldn’t look too rushed, or alternatively, change to animation to have the firing hand stay up and in firing position, only doing the recoil twitch between firing rounds.

Yeah, I’ll have to agree with you on this one. We are just after different things. Guess they just need to add longbow or rifle to give us more options. It has been a nice back and forth though. Just gotta agree to disagree on this one I guess.

So good that’s good news….

I tested it out this damage increase last night and I can definitely tell the difference — if I’m not moving at all. Since it requires for Thief to tumble around, this damage increase is negligible. Remove the pre-cast and after-cast delays for crying out loud if you want to make the weapon set more fluid.

the p/p need an evade skill so instead #2 immobilize make it evade back for 600 range like SB #3 than you will see some smart game play

and maybe more stealth ability so #2 can be leap so with 10 ini points you can spam only 1 unload so its fair use for it

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

That’s right keep dangling the carrot. People he doesn’t care! It’s a stalling technique.

they give dmg buff to see if ppl will like more the pp more. but thief needs stealth ability or evade when they bring that than we might see more pp thieves

messiah.1908:

they give dmg buff to see if ppl will like more the pp more. but thief needs stealth ability or evade when they bring that than we might see more pp thieves

He wouldn’t have to if he listened that damage wasn’t the issue. I am still waiting for a compensation on OH dagger for CiS being next to SRej.

messiah.1908:

the p/p need an evade skill so instead #2 immobilize make it evade back for 600 range like SB #3 than you will see some smart game play

and maybe more stealth ability so #2 can be leap so with 10 ini points you can spam only 1 unload so its fair use for it

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Indeed. Any change to Pistol #2 affects not just P/P but P/D, and a second “move back” skill would be redundant for P/D in particular.

Personally, I’d like to see Pistol #2 remade into some kind of short-range shotgun blast type ability that could be used for kiting or as a panic button for when someone gets in your face. Off the top of my head, it could look a little something like this:

Shrapnel Blast
4 Initiative, 1/4s Cast
Overload your pistol, discharging a blast of steam and shrapnel that does X damage and Cripples your primary target. Briefly Blind up to 5 enemies in the area around you.

Amante.8109:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Indeed. Any change to Pistol #2 affects not just P/P but P/D, and a second “move back” skill would be redundant for P/D in particular.

Personally, I’d like to see Pistol #2 remade into some kind of short-range shotgun blast type ability that could be used for kiting or as a panic button for when someone gets in your face. Off the top of my head, it could look a little something like this:

Shrapnel Blast
4 Initiative, 1/4s Cast
Overload your pistol, discharging a blast of steam and shrapnel that does X damage and Cripples your primary target. Briefly Blind up to 5 enemies in the area around you.

Honestly, Unload should immobilize your target, I mean, think about it, if someone is unloading 2 pistols at you and would you just keep on running towards the shooter? Either you’re getting hit by the bullets or hiding behind a rock, you’re pinned down.

At the very least, make Ankle Shot base line for Unload.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Amante.8109:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Unfortunately, that will give P/D 2 skills that evade back, not an ideal solution.

Indeed. Any change to Pistol #2 affects not just P/P but P/D, and a second “move back” skill would be redundant for P/D in particular.

Personally, I’d like to see Pistol #2 remade into some kind of short-range shotgun blast type ability that could be used for kiting or as a panic button for when someone gets in your face. Off the top of my head, it could look a little something like this:

Shrapnel Blast
4 Initiative, 1/4s Cast
Overload your pistol, discharging a blast of steam and shrapnel that does X damage and Cripples your primary target. Briefly Blind up to 5 enemies in the area around you.

Honestly, Unload should immobilize your target, I mean, think about it, if someone is unloading 2 pistols at you and would you just keep on running towards the shooter? Either you’re getting hit by the bullets or hiding behind a rock, you’re pinned down.

At the very least, make Ankle Shot base line for Unload.

Better: Each shot has a small amount of knockback. Just enough to halt someone with no move buffs from advancing.

Then add additional knockback in a replacement for ankle shots.

PopeUrban.2578:

Better: Each shot has a small amount of knockback. Just enough to halt someone with no move buffs from advancing.

Then add additional knockback in a replacement for ankle shots.

So a perma stun?

Edit: For those who don’t know what I mean: a knockback is an interrupt – 3 loads of unload with 8 bullets each which all knockback – GG!

Not all knockbacks are launches dude. Launch is a stun. Several mob abilities are simply knockbacks with no CC component.

PopeUrban.2578:

Not all knockbacks are launches dude. Launch is a stun. Several mob abilities are simply knockbacks with no CC component.

All knockbacks in game are interrupts, honey. (I hate it when people call me dude, honestly).

Edit: Chain of interrupts = permastun = free kill. If you meant something else then don’t use in game skills which mean something differently than you to describe it.

Jana.6831:

PopeUrban.2578:

Not all knockbacks are launches dude. Launch is a stun. Several mob abilities are simply knockbacks with no CC component.

All knockbacks in game are interrupts, honey. (I hate it when people call me dude, honestly).

Edit: Chain of interrupts = permastun = free kill. If you meant something else then don’t use in game skills which mean something differently than you to describe it.

Call it pushback or make something up that sounds nicer if you like.

The intent was a purely positional effect, not an interrupt. Sorry if the terminology was confusing.

Oh right. Confuse.

I apologize if the terminology was made difficult to understand by the words I chose to use.

Number two skill should nto double up on a skill the p/d set already has. There basically 1 , 2 and three to work with along with traits.

Trait wise I always favored one where the number of pistols equipped kicked in. Ie sundering strikes might be on critical hit inflict i stack of Vuln for equipped pistol.

That just an example.

The power on 3 is good. An evade there would not be good. What might work on number three is adding SLOW. The guy in a hail of bullets so he slowed in his reactions. Maybe a 4 second slow at the end.

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

ignore the negativity, Unload was one of my favourite skills already and now it hits like a truck with a wookie on top!

Karl McLain.5604:

FYI the damage increases weren’t part of a re-work of pistols or anything (something I’ve discussed in the past). We realize it still needs some work to get it to where we want, but we wanted to get it closer to being to that point with these changes. We’ll be looking at pistols more in-depth in the future.

-Karl

Glad to hear that! I’m eager to see what’s in store for this in the future.

I know it’s a tall order, but it’d be great if dual pistols simply had their own skill line. It may actually make it easier to balance since they’d be totally separate from all the other combinations you could have with a single pistol (main hand or off hand). Just something to consider while you guys are brainstorming avenues to take with pistols. I want to feel like a gunslinger!

I went back to my regular non Daredevil P/P build tonight. I so missed unhindered combat.

The damage buffs still made a world of difference. We are close.