Guild Wars 2

Pre-read notes:
Keep an open mind as you read this post. Don’t go into it with a narrow mind.
SA- Shadow Arts

Part One: Why does shadow arts + d/d trigger so much Q.Q

Like honestly, if you even mention shadow arts around a pvp thief, 90% of the time they will rant at you about how bad you are at this game regardless of if they know you, have ever seen you play, or have ever fought you. Now I understand that d/p thieves using shadow arts abuse the traitline with easy permstealth that isn’t even target dependent, but d/d actually relies on the shadow arts line for survival, because none of its weapon skills have any defensive components unlike most other thief weapon sets. S/d you have an evade built into a weapon skill, d/p you have blinds built into multiple weapon skills, and so on. I understand that d/d has an evade built into its 3 abillity, but the 1/4 second evade isn’t worth 4 initiative, and it’s also poorly timed so it cannot be used for sufficient defense.

That said, it makes sense how d/d depends on SA for survivabillity. Since we have no active defense from weapon skills, it is impossible for us to mitigate as much damage as d/p, s/d, etc without SA.

SA gives us an invaluable blind to help us preform similarly to d/p.
Condi clear that we don’t have access to (S/d 2 skill clears one on the return).
Regen to help mitigate the damage that we can’t evade or blind.

This dependency on SA also hinders d/d more, as it forces us to spend 30 of our 70 trait points just for basic survival, where as other weapon-sets are free to spend those 30 points elsewhere. The playstyle of high single-target burst would be greatly benefited by 30 points into deadly arts instead of shadow arts, but unfortunately d/d builds like that aren’t viable due to their lack of survivabillity and damage mitigation tools. Now I understand the yolo-mode 25 30 0 0 15 style builds that crit very high are fun, and can even be useful in situations, but in solo or small groups that lack heals + condi clear, these builds aren’t viable.

Seriously, stop hating on shadow arts being used in conjunction with d/d. It just makes you look like you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which in most cases is probably true as pvp thieves do not have much experience if any with d/d.

Part Two: Why do pvp players insist that every player in WvW is inferior?

Seriously, what leads to this conculsion? WvW has zergs, and much larger-scale content than pvp, requiring less skill than an average tpvp match. But so what? pvp has hotjoins that are pretty much the same concept. Extremely easy matches against players without much skill (On average). And you might say, “well at least PvP has tournament pvp that is actually really challenging!” well you’re correct, but WvW also has “roaming” which is similarly challenging.

Some pvp players don’t understand roaming, so let me briefly describe it to be clear.
Roaming is essentially running around a WvW map with a group of 1-5 (I consider 6+ to be zerging), and fighting other players. Roaming IS NOT running around capturing supply camps, towers, and keeps. You can do this while roaming, but this isn’t what roaming is.

“Alright, so what? You’re taking say 3 players, and fighting 3 really terrible players and you call that hard?” No, Im taking 3 players, fighting 9+ players, and calling that hard. Lets do some math shall we?

Lets say each of the 9 players hit for 750dmg on their auto attack. Lets disregard their class, race, skill level etc, because for this point it is irrelevant.

750dmg x 9 players = 6,750 damage.

So essentially, if all the players even landed an auto attack on you at the same time, you’d be in rough shape. Even players with the lowest skill levels know how to target you, and press one. But here’s the thing, these players have more damaging skills than just auto attack. They have the same exact capabillities as you, so imagine their was a thief in there, he could backstab you for 6k, making the job much easier for everyone else.

Another factor to include is that during a 1v1, you blow a cooldown to counter an enemy attack. Now imagine a 1v2, where the 2 are the same class. You blew a cooldown to counter the first players attack, but now the 2nd player ckittene the same skill and it’s likely you won’t have a way to counter it. You may say “well just dodge/blind it”, and alright, lets say you dodge it. Now you don’t have the dodge for another skill, and that on-demand blind you needed is going to hinder you’re capabillity of doing other things that are necessary in order to win a 1vX fight.

Target priority also plays a factor in this discussion, as it is a skill you must develop in 1vX that isn’t relevant to 1v1s. You may say its easy, but sometimes it’s not. Say you have a necro, warrior, and thief attacking you. Which do you target? You may say “oh the necro, the thief is probably going to stealth, and the warrior is probably tanky”. Well what if the necro was bunker-condi, the warrior was actually a dps warrior, and the thief is a s/p imobilize build. You’ve made the wrong choice. In order to form correct target priorities, you need to be able to quickly analyze your situation and the incoming enemies, and make a decision in the split of a second. This is an aquired skill that isn’t required in 1v1s, thus in my opinion making a 1v1 vs a skilled player easier than a 1vX vs average players.

The point is, although the players may be unskilled (There’s always a chance they aren’t), it is still incredibly difficult to win outnumbered fights due to the extreme disadvantage you’re at.

Next time before you call a WvWer unskilled, stop and think for a moment. He could be one of those few roamers who are actually good enough to hand you your kitten .

Probably some more things to add in here, but that’s long enough for now. /RantOff

Your second post is interesting. Only a few days ago 2 pvp duelists decided to badmouth and talk trash since I was practicing duels, as I main as a wvw havoc thief. I’m sure they were good duelists, but their braggart attitude was overbearing. As if they thought they knew everything about pvp/wvw. I know that’s not the image of every pvper, and it’s a shame I had to be introduced to those loudmouths.

In PvP, I don’t feel pressured. I don’t need to be as aware of map surroundings. I don’t need to worry about trash mobs. Heck, in duels I don’t even need to worry about outnumbered fights. If I die, I die. If I don’t, I don’t. WvW is a lot more situational. To me, pvp is always fair and honest. In WvW, it’s downright dirty fighting, using everything you can to get the upper hand. If I use a ‘cheesy’ build in PvP, I get called out on it. But if I use it in WvW, then it’s your fault you couldn’t counter it.

I’m only rank 40 in SPvP so I suppose I can’t say too much, but in my experience the hardest opponents I’ve ever fought were WvW roamers. I can remember once getting by butt handed to me by a warrior who was brand new to SPvP but had been roaming since launch. Sure, he was a warrior, but the point is he was good and he hadn’t stepped foot in SPvP.

The simple truth is that no matter how cheap you might consider WvW, outnumbered fights train you to be a better pvper in general. It teaches you awareness, proper targeting, good usage of evades/defensive tactics, what various opponents are capable of, etc.

MightyMicah.7451:

I’m only rank 40 in SPvP so I suppose I can say too much, but in my experience the hardest opponents I’ve ever fought were WvW roamers. I can remember once getting by butt handed to me by a warrior who was brand new to SPvP but had been roaming since launch. Sure, he was a warrior, but the point is he was good and he hadn’t stepped foot in SPvP.

The simple truth is that no matter how cheap you might consider WvW, outnumbered fights train you to be a better pvper in general. It teaches you awareness, proper targeting, good usage of evades/defensive tactics, what various opponents are capable of, etc.

This.

Honestly, I came from an all-pvp background and I had a slight advantage when I started WvW because of that. But there are LOTS of great players in WvW, so don’t always assume they are inferior.

And WvW can train you to be a better pvper, like Micah said. WvW is technically PvP. It’s not all zergs. A lot of roamers are very good players.

Arikyali.5804:

To me, pvp is always fair and honest.

Ha, 1:4 goes a long way. Its no more intuitive than blobing on wvw when its just a kitten storm at mid. I almost fell asleep watching the EU/NA ToL, just zergs galore with hambow, altruisitic guardian and the occasional AI build, nothing interesting.

Agreed with most of what you said.

Truth is to fight 1vX you will need 30 in SA. Whether you play D/P D/D or P/D. It greatly improves your sustain and keeps you alive against heavy condi classes.

But, there is also no denying that it is “cheese” whatever that means..
I do not have to die to anyone running 30 SA and D/P. I can escape literally any situation. But I can do the same thing with my GS warrior. The question is does that make it OP/“cheese” since it is impossible to counter or is that simply how the game/class is supposed to be.

Either way I will run my 30 SA build with D/P.. to make myself less “cheese” I do not run Shadow Refuge.. don’t really need it TBH anyway.

As far as the PvP vs WvW roaming I have done both extensively since launch. D/D or D/P with 30 in SA to me is equivalent in cheese to the 2/0/0/6/6 S/D builds. Both can disengage whenever they want. High sustain and Good damage. Stealth builds are better in WvW because we do not need to really contest points while roaming and with the vast amount of space 5-10 sec of stealth is enough to disengage anything. Evading 7 times in a row on a point is more useful in PvP but both builds allow for low risk and high reward.

In the end if you played this game long enough you can not say anyone running SA is a noob or cheese. That is something only new players say.

XPGAMER.7324:

Pre-read notes:
Keep an open mind as you read this post. Don’t go into it with a narrow mind.
SA- Shadow Arts

Part One: Why does shadow arts + d/d trigger so much Q.Q

Like honestly, if you even mention shadow arts around a pvp thief, 90% of the time they will rant at you about how bad you are at this game regardless of if they know you, have ever seen you play, or have ever fought you. Now I understand that d/p thieves using shadow arts abuse the traitline with easy permstealth that isn’t even target dependent, but d/d actually relies on the shadow arts line for survival, because none of its weapon skills have any defensive components unlike most other thief weapon sets. S/d you have an evade built into a weapon skill, d/p you have blinds built into multiple weapon skills, and so on. I understand that d/d has an evade built into its 3 abillity, but the 1/4 second evade isn’t worth 4 initiative, and it’s also poorly timed so it cannot be used for sufficient defense.

That said, it makes sense how d/d depends on SA for survivabillity. Since we have no active defense from weapon skills, it is impossible for us to mitigate as much damage as d/p, s/d, etc without SA.

SA gives us an invaluable blind to help us preform similarly to d/p.
Condi clear that we don’t have access to (S/d 2 skill clears one on the return).
Regen to help mitigate the damage that we can’t evade or blind.

This dependency on SA also hinders d/d more, as it forces us to spend 30 of our 70 trait points just for basic survival, where as other weapon-sets are free to spend those 30 points elsewhere. The playstyle of high single-target burst would be greatly benefited by 30 points into deadly arts instead of shadow arts, but unfortunately d/d builds like that aren’t viable due to their lack of survivabillity and damage mitigation tools. Now I understand the yolo-mode 25 30 0 0 15 style builds that crit very high are fun, and can even be useful in situations, but in solo or small groups that lack heals + condi clear, these builds aren’t viable.

Seriously, stop hating on shadow arts being used in conjunction with d/d. It just makes you look like you have no idea what you’re talking about. Which in most cases is probably true as pvp thieves do not have much experience if any with d/d.

Could not agree more about this!I I understand thieves and people who freak about about d/p people who use SA and just stealth/heal away. But for D/D it adds sustain and defensive skills that we need to survive in close quarters. Well said and I am glade someone out there has some common sense.

XPGAMER.7324:

Next time before you call a WvWer unskilled, stop and think for a moment. He could be one of those few roamers who are actually good enough to hand you your kitten .

Based on my experience vs you I’d have to disagree. There are currently two WvW-main thief players that come to mind who I think are decent players. I probably go 50/50 vs them, although I do think (and they also think) that they have build/matchup advantage when we “duel.” I’ve yet to run into one who “is actually good enough to hand me my kitten” though, that is for sure.

Reikou.7068:

XPGAMER.7324:

Next time before you call a WvWer unskilled, stop and think for a moment. He could be one of those few roamers who are actually good enough to hand you your kitten .

Based on my experience vs you I’d have to disagree. There are currently two WvW-main thief players that come to mind who I think are decent players. I probably go 50/50 vs them, although I do think (and they also think) that they have build advantage when we “duel.” I’ve yet to run into one who “is actually good enough to hand me my kitten” though, that is for sure.

Based on my experience vs you, I fought you on your terf (pvp) and I used d/d against your d/p. You cannot directly counter me and then expect me to win lol (Though sometimes I do)

XPGAMER.7324:

Based on my experience vs you, I fought you on your terf (pvp) and I used d/d against your d/p. You cannot directly counter me and then expect me to win lol (Though sometimes I do)

we went 3 matches, and it ended up 3-0 my favor.

Once you used the same build I did. 26006 D/P.
Twice you used some SA D/D build with some rules about no walking out Graveyard.

I didn’t expect you to win, but it wasn’t because of your build.

Anyway bringing things back on topic, my opinion of why D/D SA or just SA in general isn’t viewed highly in the minds of PvP-oriented players is for the following reasons.

1. Shadow’s Rejuvenation. This trait is far too forgiving. This leads to a comparatively lower necessary player skill level to do “decently” in 1v1 or 1vX situations. Pretty much the same as the Prismatic Understanding trait on the Mesmer. It doesn’t go well with the conquest format at all though, mostly because of the prerequisite of stealth. Also, most players that get used to playing with Shadow’s Rejuvenation don’t pick up necessary player skills necessary to play at higher levels of competitive PvP as they can basically facetank everything.

2. SA is a completely greedy traitline. It doesn’t benefit any player but yourself. Any build that runs 6 SA is basically a 1v1-oriented build and doesn’t really bring anything to the team. In the conquest format for PvP it may actually be disadvantageous.

3. Its incredibly boring to play as and fight against compared with 26006 or 20066. For most other classes, there really isn’t enough counterplay to SA.

Personally I think SA as a traitline could be interesting if Shadow’s Rejuvenation were removed. Traits such as Resilience of Shadows or Cloaked in Shadow are interesting and open up lots of options, and could be fun to play with.

Reikou.7068:

XPGAMER.7324:

Based on my experience vs you, I fought you on your terf (pvp) and I used d/d against your d/p. You cannot directly counter me and then expect me to win lol (Though sometimes I do)

we went 3 matches, and it ended up 3-0 my favor.

Once you used the same build I did. 26006 D/P.
Twice you used some SA D/D build with some rules about no walking out Graveyard.

I didn’t expect you to win, but it wasn’t because of your build.

Yeah, I tried the d/p build once, a build I have 0 experience with so if you would have lost, it would have been quite sad. And here’s this “SA d/d build” thing I’m trying to figure out. Why not just call it d/d? d/d implies SA at this point.

If you would have lost to d/d while using d/p, pretty sure you’d still be crying. I’m not sure why you find beating me with a direct counter impressive. It doesn’t show skill, it shows the abillty to press 3 repeatidly so I can’t land any cloak and daggers. I’m not complaining about d/p, It can be used for more than just that, but against d/d honestly that’s all you have to do. Its simple logic, your 3 skill is a ranged blind that deals damage, and also costs less initiative than a cloak and dagger. whenever you see me cast cloak and dagger, simply press 3 and deal dmg to me, while I waste half my initiative. Brag about that to people who care. Fight me on d/d sometime and then if you win you can talk kitten

XPGAMER.7324:

Yeah, I tried the d/p build once, a build I have 0 experience with so if you would have lost, it would have been quite sad. And here’s this “SA d/d build” thing I’m trying to figure out. Why not just call it d/d? d/d implies SA at this point.

If you would have lost to d/d while using d/p, pretty sure you’d still be crying. I’m not sure why you find beating me with a direct counter impressive. It doesn’t show skill, it shows the abillty to press 3 repeatidly so I can’t land any cloak and daggers. I’m not complaining about d/p, It can be used for more than just that, but against d/d honestly that’s all you have to do. Its simple logic, your 3 skill is a ranged blind that deals damage, and also costs less initiative than a cloak and dagger. whenever you see me cast cloak and dagger, simply press 3 and deal dmg to me, while I waste half my initiative. Brag about that to people who care. Fight me on d/d sometime and then if you win you can talk kitten

I killed you with SB most of the time. Just used D/P to finish off. Unless you’re claiming that SB is a “direct counter” (the word you’re looking for is hardcounter) to SA D/D, in which case I yield as there is nothing more to say.

26006 D/P is also definitely not hardcounter to SA D/D. Hardcounter matchups are 1/9 or even 2/8 matchups, which this matchup is not. I’d say its about 5/5 with argument for 6/4 advantage D/P, basically determined by how long the matchup lasts and what the other weaponsets the players were running.

If we are talking about just D/P and D/D smashing heads against each other and facerolling their keyboard then yes, advantage would be theoretically for D/P. However, firstly, I definitely hope that this isn’t the caliber of player we’re talking about, and second, GW2 is a game where players can equip two different weaponsets.

Also not bragging. Just clearing up some facts that you are trying to misrepresent.

Reikou.7068:

XPGAMER.7324:

Yeah, I tried the d/p build once, a build I have 0 experience with so if you would have lost, it would have been quite sad. And here’s this “SA d/d build” thing I’m trying to figure out. Why not just call it d/d? d/d implies SA at this point.

If you would have lost to d/d while using d/p, pretty sure you’d still be crying. I’m not sure why you find beating me with a direct counter impressive. It doesn’t show skill, it shows the abillty to press 3 repeatidly so I can’t land any cloak and daggers. I’m not complaining about d/p, It can be used for more than just that, but against d/d honestly that’s all you have to do. Its simple logic, your 3 skill is a ranged blind that deals damage, and also costs less initiative than a cloak and dagger. whenever you see me cast cloak and dagger, simply press 3 and deal dmg to me, while I waste half my initiative. Brag about that to people who care. Fight me on d/d sometime and then if you win you can talk kitten

I killed you with SB most of the time. Just used D/P to finish off. Unless you’re claiming that SB is a “direct counter” (the word you’re looking for is hardcounter) to SA D/D, in which case there is nothing more to say.

26006 D/P is also definitely not hardcounter to SA D/D. Hardcounter matchups are 1/9 or even 2/8 matchups, which this matchup is not.

First of all, I say d/p is a direct counter (I like the sound of this phrasing better, its personal preference, the same concept is conveyed) to “SA D/D” (Just say d/d, like really), and then I state a reason why. You’re just saying it isn’t, without any logic backing your statement up.

You also didn’t stay in sbow the majority of the time, but thats alright even if you did sbow still does counter d/d. It’s actually the same concept, except with an evade on the 3 instead of a blind. That and you have the abillity to stay ranged, forcing me to use gapclosers. Do you even think before you say these things? You have probably next to 0 experience on d/d, how about you try it before you tell me what counters it and what does not without any supporting evidence.

a t s e.9614:

Well spvp having better players its obvious though.

1. there is no gear/food advantage in pvp
2. there is a match making system, you cant kill clueless noobs like in wvw
3. In svp its 5v5, therefore personal skill matters much more than a zerg of 30v30
4. you can actually lose in spvp , in wvw you cant. Its impossible to know if some1 is good or not, there’s no leaderboards for wvw .
5. wvw players are 3 metas behind. I still see some bull charge frenzy warriors running around in wvw

Im not saying wvw players are bad though. I watched every single video from Yishis. This guy is extremly good.

1. True, helps balance. (said helps, :s)
2. uh, the matchmaking system is a joke. I still find a mix of quality and poor players.
3. Also true, however many builds get the deluxe package which are often the builds complained about.
4. There actually are leaderboards for wvw, its just not focused on roaming. The winning is whose loot bag drops. Regardless, winning in spvp doesn’t matter because you can’t rely on random people for a win. Team matches like those in the Tournys can look at win:loss but not individual, this isn’t some FPS where you can carry your team.
5. Depends on your server tier match up. Tier 1 I saw kittens mixed with blobs, tier 2 I saw more knowledgable players but often they were running some abusive build like perplex pre-nerf with 3-4 engineers or 2-4 thieves using p/d with a Mesmer ripping you apart. Tier 3 and below its just a mix, you’ll find bad players anywhere you go except the tourny’s (because they don’t get qualified).

But Reikou your bad… I once backstabbed you for 1million damage.
ucridevrytiem )’; !

a t s e.9614:

Well spvp having better players its obvious though.

1. there is no gear/food advantage in pvp ( makes you work harder to beat someone and if you lose when you have gear advantage your just bad)
2. there is a match making system, you cant kill clueless noobs like in wvw (matchmaking = 4v5 all day in spvp)
3. In svp its 5v5, therefore personal skill matters much more than a zerg of 30v30 (zergs will be zergs, we all hate them. Solo/5 man roaming is where its at and guess what its not all about bunkering in a circle)
4. you can actually lose in spvp , in wvw you cant. Its impossible to know if some1 is good or not, there’s no leaderboards for wvw . ( myself/5man spikes you/your 5man we win. PPT is for the zergs to worry about)
5. wvw players are 3 metas behind. I still see some bull charge frenzy warriors running around in wvw (I still see some bull charge frenzy warriors in spvp whats your point?)

Im not saying wvw players are bad though. I watched every single video from Yishis. This guy is extremly good.

each one of your points is just off by a bit which I pointed out.

I play both Spvp and WvW. I don’t really care who has better players honestly, IMO spvp is 10x more balanced than WvW, but that doesn’t mean i don’t like WvW. In WvW I run with both Acro and SA depending on what I feel like playing, but when I play acro in WvW condis are absolutely insane so I usually go SA so i can negate the condis. I find good players in both PvP and WvW, who gives a kitten whos better I can beat many PvP thieves and im still technically considered a wvw thief it doesn’t really matter. People just need to get over it, WvW is different that Spvp absolutely nothing is going to change that. I love both, and both have completely stupid builds in it its how the game is. Now for the SA conversation, SA imo is only needed in WvW because of condis and the amount of condi spam in WvW is ridiculous as in pvp the condi is still insane but not as much and thats where your team support comes into play to help handle the condis. I’ve gotten over the whole SA is OP idc because I can also use SA too. In all seriousness, whoooooo carrreeeessssss????

Amonatory.2453:

I play both Spvp and WvW. I don’t really care who has better players honestly, IMO spvp is 10x more balanced than WvW, but that doesn’t mean i don’t like WvW. In WvW I run with both Acro and SA depending on what I feel like playing, but when I play acro in WvW condis are absolutely insane so I usually go SA so i can negate the condis. I find good players in both PvP and WvW, who gives a kitten whos better I can beat many PvP thieves and im still technically considered a wvw thief it doesn’t really matter. People just need to get over it, WvW is different that Spvp absolutely nothing is going to change that. I love both, and both have completely stupid builds in it its how the game is. Now for the SA conversation, SA imo is only needed in WvW because of condis and the amount of condi spam in WvW is ridiculous as in pvp the condi is still insane but not as much and thats where your team support comes into play to help handle the condis. I’ve gotten over the whole SA is OP idc because I can also use SA too. In all seriousness, whoooooo carrreeeessssss????

Exactly! Its a known fact that pvp’ers wont use SA, while SA is more necessary in wvw… I don’t think anyone has disagreed so far. Whats the point of this thread O.O

a t s e.9614:

Well spvp having better players its obvious though. <snipped>

Meanwhile, every child appears to know how to ride a bike while the training wheels are still on. No food, Jr. Stats, forced 5v5, sPvP is certainly a form of PvP lite.

XPGAMER.7324:

Now I understand that d/p thieves using shadow arts abuse the traitline with easy permstealth that isn’t even target dependent, but d/d actually relies on the shadow arts line for survival, because none of its weapon skills have any defensive components unlike most other thief weapon sets.

I just want to highlight this inaccuracy.

“Permastealth” was borne of D/D, not D/P.

Once upon a time, a D/D Thief can endlessly stealth by using CnD on a wall to easily retake the tower in WvW. That “cheesy” method was long been eliminated with the changes to the wall and the cost of CnD.

Even today, D/D can easily chain stealth if done correctly.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

XPGAMER.7324:

Now I understand that d/p thieves using shadow arts abuse the traitline with easy permstealth that isn’t even target dependent, but d/d actually relies on the shadow arts line for survival, because none of its weapon skills have any defensive components unlike most other thief weapon sets.

I just want to highlight this inaccuracy.

“Permastealth” was borne of D/D, not D/P.

Once upon a time, a D/D Thief can endlessly stealth by using CnD on a wall to easily retake the tower in WvW. That “cheesy” method was long been eliminated with the changes to the wall and the cost of CnD.

Even today, D/D can easily chain stealth if done correctly.

I didnt say it was impossible to permastealth with d/d. I just pointed out that d/p permastealth isnt target dependent, d/d permastealth is, and therefore avoidable (Not every fight has walls)

panicbutton.1053:

Amonatory.2453:

I play both Spvp and WvW. I don’t really care who has better players honestly, IMO spvp is 10x more balanced than WvW, but that doesn’t mean i don’t like WvW. In WvW I run with both Acro and SA depending on what I feel like playing, but when I play acro in WvW condis are absolutely insane so I usually go SA so i can negate the condis. I find good players in both PvP and WvW, who gives a kitten whos better I can beat many PvP thieves and im still technically considered a wvw thief it doesn’t really matter. People just need to get over it, WvW is different that Spvp absolutely nothing is going to change that. I love both, and both have completely stupid builds in it its how the game is. Now for the SA conversation, SA imo is only needed in WvW because of condis and the amount of condi spam in WvW is ridiculous as in pvp the condi is still insane but not as much and thats where your team support comes into play to help handle the condis. I’ve gotten over the whole SA is OP idc because I can also use SA too. In all seriousness, whoooooo carrreeeessssss????

Exactly! Its a known fact that pvp’ers wont use SA, while SA is more necessary in wvw… I don’t think anyone has disagreed so far. Whats the point of this thread O.O

Read the bolded parts, I made it really easy. Thats the point of this thread. Just wondering why the gw2 community thinks about those questions the way they do.

Reikou.7068:

I killed you with SB most of the time. Just used D/P to finish off. Unless you’re claiming that SB is a “direct counter” (the word you’re looking for is hardcounter) to SA D/D, in which case I yield as there is nothing more to say.

26006 D/P is also definitely not hardcounter to SA D/D. Hardcounter matchups are 1/9 or even 2/8 matchups, which this matchup is not. I’d say its about 5/5 with argument for 6/4 advantage D/P, basically determined by how long the matchup lasts and what the other weaponsets the players were running.

If we are talking about just D/P and D/D smashing heads against each other and facerolling their keyboard then yes, advantage would be theoretically for D/P. However, firstly, I definitely hope that this isn’t the caliber of player we’re talking about, and second, GW2 is a game where players can equip two different weaponsets.

Also not bragging. Just clearing up some facts that you are trying to misrepresent.

98.7 % of statstics are made up!
You make those numbers up yourself rofl?

XPGAMER.7324:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

XPGAMER.7324:

Now I understand that d/p thieves using shadow arts abuse the traitline with easy permstealth that isn’t even target dependent, but d/d actually relies on the shadow arts line for survival, because none of its weapon skills have any defensive components unlike most other thief weapon sets.

I just want to highlight this inaccuracy.

“Permastealth” was borne of D/D, not D/P.

Once upon a time, a D/D Thief can endlessly stealth by using CnD on a wall to easily retake the tower in WvW. That “cheesy” method was long been eliminated with the changes to the wall and the cost of CnD.

Even today, D/D can easily chain stealth if done correctly.

I didnt say it was impossible to permastealth with d/d. I just pointed out that d/p permastealth isnt target dependent, d/d permastealth is, and therefore avoidable (Not every fight has walls)

I’m actually pointing out that D/P is not the only one that abuses the SA traitline.

Why dont all you super saiyans.. I mean super thieves (I have watched alot of your videos and some of you I recognize as being very talented!)
Create a guild together and murder all things! <3 Together <3

Frankly, D/D or even the sustaining effects from SA aren’t even that powerful.

It’s literally just offhand pistol with blind/smoke field access. I find that on my thief, my worst matchup is against D/P thieves. Why? Because I can’t handle getting blinded. Getting blinded all the time is just silly.

And to prove the silly-overpoweredness of blindspam, I switched my build to a full clerics healing P/P build in sPvP against the best players I could find.

And with anything-but-bad timing, I was able to achieve 100% damage mitigation for thirty five straight seconds through everything in the game (except berserker’s stance) with only around ten seconds of downtime. My 100 damage autos and 200 damage ticks would have fights go on for over 20 minutes but I would still win pretty much every time, never playing P/P or even a SA blind build once before in my life. I run this build almost exclusively in sPvP now because it’s just so kitten good, because blind-spam is blatantly overpowered.

XPGAMER.7324:

Read the bolded parts, I made it really easy. Thats the point of this thread. Just wondering why the gw2 community thinks about those questions the way they do.

Why are you so mad? Do any of your followers know how rude you are?

1. No one QQ’s about D/D. Why would they, and whats the point? It’s not over powered.

2. PvPers insist WvWers are inferior. WvW’ers insist that PvPers are inferior. It’s human to cling to what you enjoy most and defend the kitten out of it.

/thread

This pi**ing contest is going nowhere, just ignore the fools who call d/d cheese. I can pull out p/p and it’ll be called cheese by someone eventually, its just how some people are nowadays.

panicbutton.1053:

XPGAMER.7324:

Read the bolded parts, I made it really easy. Thats the point of this thread. Just wondering why the gw2 community thinks about those questions the way they do.

Why are you so mad? Do any of your followers know how rude you are?

1. No one QQ’s about D/D. Why would they, and whats the point? It’s not over powered.

2. PvPers insist WvWers are inferior. WvW’ers insist that PvPers are inferior. It’s human to cling to what you enjoy most and defend the kitten out of it.

/thread

Ikr. D/D is arguably one of the fairest weaponsets in the game.

now
XOXO
and make up

panicbutton.1053:

XPGAMER.7324:

Read the bolded parts, I made it really easy. Thats the point of this thread. Just wondering why the gw2 community thinks about those questions the way they do.

Why are you so mad? Do any of your followers know how rude you are?

1. No one QQ’s about D/D. Why would they, and whats the point? It’s not over powered.

2. PvPers insist WvWers are inferior. WvW’ers insist that PvPers are inferior. It’s human to cling to what you enjoy most and defend the kitten out of it.

/thread

I’m not mad, I’m not rude. I did not intend for that to be taken in a rude manner, I actually just wanted to point out where the main purposes were so that you could easily read them if you didn’t want to read the lengthy post. And the point isn’t Q.Q about d/d, its more so about why pvp thieves think that SA always means that a player is bad, regardless of the weapon set being used. I also used the post to elaborate why d/d was dependent on SA, so that the community may have a better understanding. Please don’t take everything as an attack, I’m not trying to be rude or disrespectful to anyone<3 Just wanted to know what the communities thoughts were.

XPGAMER.7324:

I’m not mad, I’m not rude. I did not intend for that to be taken in a rude manner, I actually just wanted to point out where the main purposes were so that you could easily read them if you didn’t want to read the lengthy post. And the point isn’t Q.Q about d/d, its more so about why pvp thieves think that SA always means that a player is bad, regardless of the weapon set being used. I also used the post to elaborate why d/d was dependent on SA, so that the community may have a better understanding. Please don’t take everything as an attack, I’m not trying to be rude or disrespectful to anyone<3 Just wanted to know what the communities thoughts were.

I was going to say, it didn’t sound to me like you were being rude.

Also, I think tPvPers just aren’t used to d/d at all, so I’m glad you made this post, if they read the section about d/d and SA, they might learn why d/d needs SA and stop the q.q. You were very logical and it made lots of sense. Good post

NinjaEd.3946: “This pi**ing contest is going nowhere, just ignore the fools who call d/d cheese. I can pull out p/p and it’ll be called cheese by someone eventually, its just how some people are nowadays.”

I already had someone say I was running a cheese build for using p/p. I was just running around seeing if the uncommonness of it would kill people and it killed a lot so at least 4 people invited me to party and called my build cheese that should be nerfed. Their main reason was stealth was op even though I didn’t stealth for the entire fight. People just complain, its in their nature.

Ario.8964:

NinjaEd.3946: “This pi**ing contest is going nowhere, just ignore the fools who call d/d cheese. I can pull out p/p and it’ll be called cheese by someone eventually, its just how some people are nowadays.”

I already had someone say I was running a cheese build for using p/p. I was just running around seeing if the uncommonness of it would kill people and it killed a lot so at least 4 people invited me to party and called my build cheese that should be nerfed. Their main reason was stealth was op even though I didn’t stealth for the entire fight. People just complain, its in their nature.

Amen, and amen!

I love sPvP, and I love WvW.
I just wish ANet would add some new PvP mode where D/D would considered viable so I could play D/D in PvP. I’m less than 50 wins away from Champion Shadow and I think once I get it I might stop sPvP with Thief, a bit tired of not being able to run what I want in order to be useful for the team (I once tried 0/6/2/0/6 D/D Thief in PvP, apart of the conquest thing, I think it could be viable since most team utility other builds in sPvP brings is still there, which is boon rip and an interupt every 20 secs and it can burst people even faster than S/D if played right, ba thing would be that 1 v 1 every other Thief would most likely counter because of the CnD dependence and so this build would rely a lot of not being outnumbered or solo most of the time )

a t s e.9614:

Anyway , every viable build is faceroll in this game. I don’t think SA thief is worse than the other crap such as petting zoo necro/ranger , hambow warr , turret engi etc..

It’s not actually, all those builds are in the same vein of being “newbie friendly” and effective to a certain point. That point usually being competitve tPvP, because the general player skill and team coordination make those builds worthless.

The biggest difference of course is that all the other builds you listed, a t s e, can stand on a point during a fight and contest it, while an SA thief cannot.

I don’t begrudge those who want to play their SA thief in WvW, though I do believe its a “training wheels” spec, and they could be just as effective with a smarter build and play style.

I think players need to respect the difference in metas between WvW and sPvP. You WILL get flak by running your SA thief build in a teamQ environment and even in soloQ; it’s simply not as effective as the other meta thief builds.

You can choose to ignore that, of course, but then you sound kinda silly when you complain about people talking down to you for your WvW build used in sPvP.

JohnnyZero.5619:

You can choose to ignore that, of course, but then you sound kinda silly when you complain about people talking down to you for your WvW build used in sPvP.

Don’t worry, plenty of times in OS their are thieves running 100% zerker gear with 2 6 0 0 6, I one shot em and they call d/d cheese and talk kitten about how bad WvW is lmao.

XPGAMER.7324:

Don’t worry, plenty of times in OS their are thieves running 100% zerker gear with 2 6 0 0 6, I one shot em and they call d/d cheese and talk kitten about how bad WvW is lmao.

Did I give you the impression that I was worried?

Players are very often going to get upset when they lose, especially the bad ones. It falls to you to ignore them. Unfortunately, winning random duels against nameless players doesn’t do much for proving any of your points, other than “I can win sometimes, and make people mad!”

JohnnyZero.5619:

a t s e.9614:

Anyway , every viable build is faceroll in this game. I don’t think SA thief is worse than the other crap such as petting zoo necro/ranger , hambow warr , turret engi etc..

I don’t begrudge those who want to play their SA thief in WvW, though I do believe its a “training wheels” spec, and they could be just as effective with a smarter build and play style.

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

TheThiefMaster.3812:

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

That’s a pretty broad generalization to say that someone “simply wont win against those specs without SA”.

My argument is that a thief could be become a better player if he/she doesn’t use SA traits.

Your argument is that a thief player can’t get by without SA traits.

Which sounds more positive to you?

Though you may have a point, I play sPvP a lot more than I play WvW these days, and Perplexity runes don’t exist in sPvP. I wonder why that is?

JohnnyZero.5619:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

That’s a pretty broad generalization to say that someone “simply wont win against those specs without SA”.

My argument is that a thief could be become a better player if he/she doesn’t use SA traits.

Your argument is that a thief player can’t get by without SA traits.

Which sounds more positive to you?

Though you may have a point, I play sPvP a lot more than I play WvW these days, and Perplexity runes don’t exist in sPvP. I wonder why that is?

I play both game modes , i’ve ran all specs ( the known ones at least ) in both Spvp and WvW so I’m speaking from experience , against certain specs , like the ones i mentioned above , you simply need SA.

This is coming from someone who hardly ever uses SA anymore by the way , even in WvW .

TheThiefMaster.3812:

JohnnyZero.5619:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

That’s a pretty broad generalization to say that someone “simply wont win against those specs without SA”.

My argument is that a thief could be become a better player if he/she doesn’t use SA traits.

Your argument is that a thief player can’t get by without SA traits.

Which sounds more positive to you?

Though you may have a point, I play sPvP a lot more than I play WvW these days, and Perplexity runes don’t exist in sPvP. I wonder why that is?

I play both game modes , i’ve ran all specs ( the known ones at least ) in both Spvp and WvW so I’m speaking from experience , against certain specs , like the ones i mentioned above , you simply need SA.

This is coming from someone who hardly ever uses SA anymore by the way , even in WvW .

All I’m saying is d/d almost always needs SA, it isn’t a set of training wheels, its the crutch for the weaponset.

XPGAMER.7324:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

JohnnyZero.5619:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

That’s a pretty broad generalization to say that someone “simply wont win against those specs without SA”.

My argument is that a thief could be become a better player if he/she doesn’t use SA traits.

Your argument is that a thief player can’t get by without SA traits.

Which sounds more positive to you?

Though you may have a point, I play sPvP a lot more than I play WvW these days, and Perplexity runes don’t exist in sPvP. I wonder why that is?

I play both game modes , i’ve ran all specs ( the known ones at least ) in both Spvp and WvW so I’m speaking from experience , against certain specs , like the ones i mentioned above , you simply need SA.

This is coming from someone who hardly ever uses SA anymore by the way , even in WvW .

All I’m saying is d/d almost always needs SA, it isn’t a set of training wheels, its the crutch for the weaponset.

D/D needs SA in the face of condi otherwise its playable without it , thats my opinion at least .

Different game modes have different sets of optimal play. Creating the situations where your play is optimal and the others is sub-optimal is the name of the game. You can beat people in an optimal situation and say you are more skilled but the reality is the fight context plays a huge part in determining the outcome.

It all comes down to “what should you do” and then after you do it “how well did you do it”. Being the winner of a fight or the loser of the fight doesn’t tell the story. Whether someone plays sPvP, solo roams, small man roams, or plays in giant zergs doesn’t change this fact. SA in WvW is most of the time optimal, in sPvP sub-optimal. Whether line of sight is present is optimal for some builds and sub-optimal for others.

This thread is solid, I like that more d/d players are speaking out. When facing condi I like SA or ACRO. It can be used fine in spvp when conditions are met “that pre-game start time sure comes in handy brah”. Some people enjoy sticking with the majority and group “meta players”. They fear change and you can see that in some posts. Humans like comfort and routine and switching up specs and weapons goes against that.

SA round in solo
http://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714/c/4210642

Meta players
http://www.twitch.tv/mindtrick714/c/3738222

TheThiefMaster.3812:

XPGAMER.7324:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

JohnnyZero.5619:

TheThiefMaster.3812:

i’d love to see you use your so called smarter build against a perplexity terrormancer or a perplexity engi in WvW, then again you are just making things up as you simply wont win against those specs without SA unless the players are terrible , no ifs and buts it’s just the way it is :-).

That’s a pretty broad generalization to say that someone “simply wont win against those specs without SA”.

My argument is that a thief could be become a better player if he/she doesn’t use SA traits.

Your argument is that a thief player can’t get by without SA traits.

Which sounds more positive to you?

Though you may have a point, I play sPvP a lot more than I play WvW these days, and Perplexity runes don’t exist in sPvP. I wonder why that is?

I play both game modes , i’ve ran all specs ( the known ones at least ) in both Spvp and WvW so I’m speaking from experience , against certain specs , like the ones i mentioned above , you simply need SA.

This is coming from someone who hardly ever uses SA anymore by the way , even in WvW .

All I’m saying is d/d almost always needs SA, it isn’t a set of training wheels, its the crutch for the weaponset.

D/D needs SA in the face of condi.

And this is the prime issue. But it’s not unique to D/D; it applies to the entire thief class.

SA has pretty much all of the defense available to thieves loaded into one steamlined trait line. And with condition damage becoming more prevalent and being countered solely by condi clears, it only makes sense to spec shadow arts for the removal and heals to simply not die while in stealth. This is especially apparent since thieves have no other effective condi clear skills and therefore become dependent on a trait line for its sustaining potential.

Frankly, if HiS removed all damaging conditions rather than just bleeding/burning/poison, and there was more universal access to condi removal for the class, I doubt as many thieves would run SA except those very interested in high stealth uptime and some of the really defensive perks that come along with it to become nuisances in fights and very slippery targets as they were intended to be.

You need to stay in stealth for the full duration if you want to benefit from SA. Otherwise, all points allocated into the trait would be useless. Thus, staying for the full duration of stealth while playing sPvP means you’re not contributing much to your team. So I don’t buy this argument that D/D needs SA. D/D needs stealth, that’s for sure, but not necessarily SA.

I can see the use of SA in WvW, but it’s still unnecessary especially with all the anti-stealth tools available in that game format.

People seem to underestimate the trait Shadow Protector which basically gives your thief perma regen, and it’s actually quite useful for a S/D build to get some more sustain going. My next fave is cloaked in shadows which turns your cloak and daggers into blinding cloak and daggers, which makes engaging any enemy a lot safer (I see this on P/D builds and I have absolutely no idea why, the blind spam is already insane in this build) ESPECIALLY the heavies…..and Mesmers, and basically anything with a bunch of AI and pets following it around.
I used to use Shadows Embrace as a crutch but I forced myself to stop using it and wow has my play improved dramatically as a result.
Apart from that going deep into SA doesn’t appeal too much, and learning to play without it at all will improve your play.

I just want to point out I do not play nor endorse SA builds as I think they are also cheesy and provide way too much power for how little skill they require. The same goes for blindspam builds.

Pain Response isn’t a particularly good condition cleanse. It’s just a second HiS, which begs the question, why bother taking it when you’ve already cleansed those conditions, and thieves have literally zero access outside of SA and Shadowstep (I don’t consider signet of agility condi removal as one condition is nothing) to remove confusion and torment (and of course everything else). The bottom line is that SA just provides too many essentials which other classes already have built-in (condi removal, healing, damage negation, extreme synergy with weapon skills and the class mechanic and means of constant application of arguably the best condition/CC in the entire game (blind). Acro is a good line for aggressive players looking for some defensive bonuses, but SA takes the cake in builds designed to kill other players, and this is caused mostly by the synergy it has with itself in that it gives +toughness and +healing with anti-burst skills, plenty of sustained healing, and the best condition removal thief has, meanwhile still providing some damage potential and some might stacking. The SA line is so power-heavy that in fact it is one of the few trait lines in the entire game where most of the traits are difficult to choose from because there are so many desirable choices, whereas the rest of the traits in other lines pretty much lead to a few select ones which are the obvious best-picks

D/D isn’t a SA build path, nor should it be. D/P is the epitome of it, though, for I’d argue entering a fight with 8 stacks of might (280 power) and heavy blind application on a full damage build when backstabbing and getting the best heals and condition removal the class has access to is pretty nice.

With HiS cleansing torment and confusion, and simply more skills removing conditions, there would be less of a dependency on SA builds than there currently is.