Guild Wars 2

4 am and can’t sleep so did some quick dps tests, might as well post them here too in case someone is interested.
Taken with dps meter, average dps for 1 million damage done to pvp golem with meta gear (so numbers are more in pve).

staff rotation with vault 8,5k second try 7,4k

staff rotation with #2 7,8k second try 8,2k (all 3 hits connecting every time)

dagger/dagger 6k second try 6,3k

And revenant

sword/sword 7,7k second try almost exactly same 7,7k (around 10-17 self might all the time)

So in a raid setting where everyone has 25 might, thief has clearly better dps but yeah, still not very impressive for offering nothing but damage + much more inconsistent.

Also i have seen a lot people saying that you should use staff 2 if you can land 2 or more hits, i would say just stick with vault unless you can connect all 3 every time, even then it might not be good because you spend so much time doing it instead of autoattacking.

E: also one thing, you can still shorten staff 2 distance if you point your camera down, just make sure you have no target and hitbox of this skill is in front of you so don’t sit right on top of enemy.

Uhm, I wonder why your numbers are lower than mines.

I made too some DPS tests with this build:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQFAWn8lCVmiNOBGOBkmiFaCbLPNc2TzVwN4IULAMhiAA-TJBFwACuAAI3foaZAAPAAA

So, the only buff with almost 100% uptime is ofc Fury, no might at all etc.

Without uber-precise rotations, I managed to keep around 9.5k DPS.

Some notes though:

- I noticed that using only Weaking Charge + autoattack + dodge result in less DPS than a rotation that uses Vault too. Vault in the end has a higher DPS when meleeing at point blank, since the animation is quicker than WC.
- I tried to use first Fire+Air sigil, then Air+Force. The Force sigil was better than Fire, with that I managed to get 9.5-9,6k dps, whereas with the Fire I was around 9.4k.

This with 2555 power, 2080 precision and 1208 Ferocity.
In PvE with full zerker equip and scholar runes, we get 2737 power, 2140 precision and 1274 Ferocity (without food/nourishment), and these numbers are heavily compounded by all our dmg modificators (due to how they works, multiplicative instead of sum).

The more I think about it, the more I’m surprised that staff daredevil is still not in the meta as the pure high DPS role. Who cares about support, there must be someone who’s dedicated to pure damage and it seems that DD fits this role.

I’ll check this in a raid as soon as possible, but it looks good so far.

The worst thing about staff is that all the other weapons feel weak now. Yes, technically D/D has the same damage, but in practice you’ll find enemies face you way too often to make use of it. Staff works from any direction. The hard part is mastering the sweet spot for weakening charge, which I find myself having to redo regularly due to how much I alt.

Galandil.9641:

Uhm, I wonder why your numbers are lower than mines.

Interesting, what kind of rotation are you using and for how long. I just can’t get to over 9k whatever i do. I also used exactly same build as you.

For me it was bound->fist flurry->double vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault and so on, using steal when low on endurance and fist flurry when off cooldown.

also just to be sure, i did mine on indestructible target golem

Hope silly pve boys will acknoledge the fact staff thief is best dps in game

Urejt.5648:

Hope silly pve boys will acknoledge the fact staff thief is best dps in game

Agreed.

If all your offensivesupport conditions are met, thief is the best dps for the 5th slot of a melee group.

In my not quite but almost optimized group i was doing 30 to 36k on my weakening charges, upwards of 40k vaults, and 16k+ dodges.

The fact that we can burn through our initiative during damage buffs from druid makes us default the best imo for really coordinated speed clears.

Zaerah.1630:

Galandil.9641:

Uhm, I wonder why your numbers are lower than mines.

Interesting, what kind of rotation are you using and for how long. I just can’t get to over 9k whatever i do. I also used exactly same build as you.

For me it was bound->fist flurry->double vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault->autoattack chain->bound->vault and so on, using steal when low on endurance and fist flurry when off cooldown.

also just to be sure, i did mine on indestructible target golem

Only issue with this rotation is maintaining initiative.

WC is more efficient in terms of damage to initiative, so unless you find yourself in a situation where you cant empty your initiative by spamming weakening charge before damage buffs run out, it should be superior to vault, assuming no multi targets.

If all three hits land it is slightly less damage than vault for 2 less initiative. But yea if you notice late that you only have like 2 seconds left on druid buffs, probably best to spam two vaults before they fade.

You can actually maintain that vault rotation pretty well for a long time, though sometimes you need to attack twice on top of normal auto chain.
Did again that test on WC and vault and again got higher dps on vault rotation. While it is true that you get more value out of your initiative when using WC, you get value out of vault faster which lets you auto attack more, on my tests it seems to result in higher average dps.

Ok, so this is what I did.

I used a rotation of Vault/AA/WC/AA, filling it with Bound+Fist Flurry+Steal when available, paying attention to keep at least 1 bar of endurance always available in case it’s needed.

This rotation imo is quite good when playing in PUGs, it doesn’t burn our ini quickly (compared to a rotation that uses only AA and Vault) so we always have the possibility to burn ini when maxed buffs are up.

I’d use, instead, only Vault and AA with an organized group in TS, if the buffers are syncronized and they call the buffs somewhat ahead of time (let’s say 15-20 seconds before), so we can save some ini in order to discharge it when all the buffs are up.

Fact is, it’s true that WC has a higher dmg per ini, but it seems to me, after some tests, that it has a lower DPS than Vault, due to the somewhat clunky and longer casting and aftercasting time, not to mention that sometimes WC may hit only twice instead of 3 times (but this should improve with better positioning and it’s not a true problem with raid bosses which have a quite big hitbox).

BTW, I don’t think (but I’m open to be proven wrong ofc) that the venomshare build could reach this DPS, the only problem is that the rotation, even in its simplicity, it’s prone to be kittened up sometimes, it requires good reflexes and timing, but hey, that’s true for every build.

Now I’d like to see some numbers relative to the condi engie/zerkwar, some people still claim that they’re the highest DPS builds in raids, but without some numbers, I still consider it anedoctal (due to the fact, too, that staff DD hasn’t been used that much in raids yet cause “meta”).

the tone to the thief forums have taken a delightful positive turn?

maybe?…

Keyang.3729:

the tone to the thief forums have taken a delightful positive turn?

maybe?…

Not really. ^^

We’re just stating ONE, single pro of the thief class, its high DPS capabilities, in PvP it’s still subpar.

And even yet, we’re still facing the problem of the utter ignorance and obtuseness of the raid community, which won’t take a thief for the DPS role cause “herald dps is better”.

So, considering how easy the rev rotation is and it pulls close-enough numbers, I would bring a rev over a thief… that and the rev provides party-wide buffs – Can’t really trust many people with more “complex” rotations.

Granted that:
- It’s a stationary target, without any mechanics that hinder dps. (though, both revs and thieves (well any melee) would suffer from this)
- sPvP gear stats are slightly different than PvE stats. (Number should be higher in PvE?)

Zero Day.2594:

So, considering how easy the rev rotation is and it pulls close-enough numbers, I would bring a rev over a thief… that and the rev provides party-wide buffs – Can’t really trust many people with more “complex” rotations.

I wonder if you bothered to read everything, 9.5k dps (0 might) vs 7.7k dps (10-17 might stacks) are HARDLY close enough numbers.

Galandil.9641:

Zero Day.2594:

So, considering how easy the rev rotation is and it pulls close-enough numbers, I would bring a rev over a thief… that and the rev provides party-wide buffs – Can’t really trust many people with more “complex” rotations.

I wonder if you bothered to read everything, 9.5k dps (0 might) vs 7.7k dps (10-17 might stacks) are HARDLY close enough numbers.

Nope, didn’t read your post, just the OP’s.

Zero Day.2594:

Nope, didn’t read your post, just the OP’s.

Even so, you didn’t even read it with attention.

If we get OP numbers, and consider the might stacks on both tests, daredevil has always 0 might stacks, while herald gets 10-17 might stacks. Let’s put ourselves in the best case scenario for the herald, and say that during the test he caps at 10 stacks.

With a simple proportion, considering 25 might stacks for both from 0 (thief) and 10 (rev):

Thief – 10.6k DPS
Rev – 9.16k DPS

So +1440 DPS for the daredevil spec just giving to both classes 25 might stacks. That means that the daredevil inflicts +15.72% more dmg per second.

Is even only this not enough?

And if we consider a not-so-perfect rotation by a thief, we get at least 9k DPS, which means +27.1% dps, with a very good rotation (i.e.: quite some experience) that unleashes 9.5k dps, it’s +34.15% dps.

Are you still so sure that’s better to bring another herald instead of a staff daredevil?

Your revenant rotation is terrible if you aren’t hitting 8k – 7k is roughly ‘afk autoattacking in Glint’ level. Glint / Shiro should be up around 9k on the training dummy in the mists.

Hitting 8k with a thief is impressive if you weren’t using Fist Flurry – with it you should be able to get pretty close to revenant levels.

At least that is my experience hitting dummies, YMMV. There’s a reason you should take the numbers from hitting dummies and stick ’em in a spreadsheet – it moves it from contextless anecdote into analyzable data.

Ensign.2189:

Your revenant rotation is terrible if you aren’t hitting 8k – 7k is roughly ‘afk autoattacking in Glint’ level. Glint / Shiro should be up around 9k on the training dummy in the mists.

Hitting 8k with a thief is impressive if you weren’t using Fist Flurry – with it you should be able to get pretty close to revenant levels.

At least that is my experience hitting dummies, YMMV. There’s a reason you should take the numbers from hitting dummies and stick ’em in a spreadsheet – it moves it from contextless anecdote into analyzable data.

Build/rotation of the herald pls? I’d like to check it out myself.

P.S.: I’m not talking about SINGLE, specific hits, I was talking about DPS, using a DPS meter. Were you talking about 9k dps for glint/shiro or something else?

There’s one factor that affects the DDs DPS that should be considered when talking about PvE, that is survivability.

While a Revenant can literally tank-and-spank, DD has to dodge-and-spank and every time a DD dodges, its DPS drops considerably — except when traited with Bound and used offensively. Dash results in worst DPS due to longer dodge animation.

The main issue with Bound is when the DD used it as an offensive skill — they’ll lose it as a defensive skill. Assuming that the DD used Bound as an offensive, the likelihood of the DD popping up a heal gets higher — meaning more DPS drops.

In order for the DD to do less dodging and less healing is to have a dedicated healer on the DD so that they can focus on pure DPS.

So in a pre-made group setting where buffs are abundant and there’s a dedicated healer, theoretically it is more beneficial to only have one Herald (for the party buff) and the rest of DPS to be DD rather than having multiple Heralds. Again, the squishiness of the DD is a major factor even though there is a dedicated healer.

Here’s my POV of the final raid boss. Survivability isn’t even close to a problem. Everything you do is some kind of evasion and you get endurance back easily, otherwise the Druid instantly put me to 100% if I did get hit. I struggled to find anyone who could take out the cannons at the speed I was doing it, too.

It was the same with Vale Guardian and Gorseval. DPS is super easy to land when you know the WC hitbox, survivability is, as mentioned, not a problem, and mobility + CC is great. Any Herald past the 1st one is kind of a waste. The Glint heal is nice in that you can keep DPSing when there’s a huge threat incoming, but you can also Vault-evade through that threat so… /shrug

Just a note, the differences on dps can also be result from the meter you are using.
I did my tests on jaxnx, as it does not violate any rules, as far as i know.

Galandil.9641:

Zero Day.2594:

Nope, didn’t read your post, just the OP’s.

Even so, you didn’t even read it with attention.

If we get OP numbers, and consider the might stacks on both tests, daredevil has always 0 might stacks, while herald gets 10-17 might stacks. Let’s put ourselves in the best case scenario for the herald, and say that during the test he caps at 10 stacks.

With a simple proportion, considering 25 might stacks for both from 0 (thief) and 10 (rev):

Thief – 10.6k DPS
Rev – 9.16k DPS

So +1440 DPS for the daredevil spec just giving to both classes 25 might stacks. That means that the daredevil inflicts +15.72% more dmg per second.

Is even only this not enough?

And if we consider a not-so-perfect rotation by a thief, we get at least 9k DPS, which means +27.1% dps, with a very good rotation (i.e.: quite some experience) that unleashes 9.5k dps, it’s +34.15% dps.

Are you still so sure that’s better to bring another herald instead of a staff daredevil?

Fair enough.

I would still be interested in seeing both rotations for herald and staff daredevil and their complexities…

As far as I’m aware the herald one is just AA’ing with impossible odds and shiro’s heal (for added dps) then switching to herald to stack might+ unrelenting assault. It might also not be worth it to switch at all, though not sure. Like, it’s hard to screw up, since most of the time your character already AA’s, you just have to pop a couple of skills and not worry about (besides unrelenting assault) popping any other damage skills…

Of course in a guild environment, where one can train themselves with the thief to pull max or as much of the max dps as possible – then yeah, bring a thief. On the flip side, picking up a random thief for a pug, might not be the best idea…

(Read the “guild environment” as a group that aligns the stars for you).

Watched Auesis video…

Rotation doesn’t seem so bad. Number wise, by eye, there were some 3-4k poping up with some +15k as well, but at least visually I saw more 7-12k numbers poping up more often – But that’s visually… Would be more interesting to see a dps meter.

Likewise, would be interesting to see a rev and/or a couple other profs rotations and dps meters.

Also, hate to sound stubborn… but really the first thing that would be nice in any discussion about dps, is a “standard” dps meter… After that would probably solo dps against say target dummies, then in various group settings… And past that would be on actual bosses, consistently/systematically. It’s a bit much…

The real problem comparing Thief and Rev professions isnt dps, but the Herald trait line.
While Daredevil comes up with some buff to our dmg + a dodge, herald trait line seems tailored for raiding. Every trait here is a party wide buff with godly utility skills:
Infused light, Shared empowerment, Envoy of sustenance.. the only personal buff trait is grandmaster.
Glint utility then are on-request party wide buffs, while thief has personal skill to increase HIS dps. You neeed might? facet of strenght. protection? chaos. Fury? darkness.
At the current state of the game the slight increase in dps provided by thief, could maybe grant us 1 spot in raid, but we are not needed like Herald is.
My opinion is that Revenant is too much.. at least something like assassin’s presence should have been granted to thief instead.

Auesis.7301:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB62bBYWSTQ

Here’s my POV of the final raid boss. Survivability isn’t even close to a problem. Everything you do is some kind of evasion and you get endurance back easily, otherwise the Druid instantly put me to 100% if I did get hit. I struggled to find anyone who could take out the cannons at the speed I was doing it, too.

It was the same with Vale Guardian and Gorseval. DPS is super easy to land when you know the WC hitbox, survivability is, as mentioned, not a problem, and mobility + CC is great. Any Herald past the 1st one is kind of a waste. The Glint heal is nice in that you can keep DPSing when there’s a huge threat incoming, but you can also Vault-evade through that threat so… /shrug

That’s interesting…it never occurred to me to actually walk away from the boss a few steps before WCing…will practice this. Thanks for the video!

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

That’s interesting…it never occurred to me to actually walk away from the boss a few steps before WCing…will practice this. Thanks for the video!

This is the correct way to do, hitting WC 3 times, but..
I think that this rotation is good when boss hitbox is big enough to remove the movement required to hit WC 3 times.
The movement required to adjust + the longer animation of WC make vault rotation probably have a higher dps on smaller hitbox.
Something like that:

blarghhrrkblah.3412:

Auesis.7301:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB62bBYWSTQ

Here’s my POV of the final raid boss. Survivability isn’t even close to a problem. Everything you do is some kind of evasion and you get endurance back easily, otherwise the Druid instantly put me to 100% if I did get hit. I struggled to find anyone who could take out the cannons at the speed I was doing it, too.

It was the same with Vale Guardian and Gorseval. DPS is super easy to land when you know the WC hitbox, survivability is, as mentioned, not a problem, and mobility + CC is great. Any Herald past the 1st one is kind of a waste. The Glint heal is nice in that you can keep DPSing when there’s a huge threat incoming, but you can also Vault-evade through that threat so… /shrug

That’s interesting…it never occurred to me to actually walk away from the boss a few steps before WCing…will practice this. Thanks for the video!

This video is an excellent example of how dare devils mobility really does factor i to their realistic dps. I Imagine how long a herald or condi engineer would take for cannon duty and how much they lose on moving for the tnt. Very well played sir.

If your group had the optimal comp your damage would have been even more impressive.