Guild Wars 2

Hey I have been thinking about d/d combo move a bit and wanted to make a forum post about it. Pretty sure it won’t get much attention but still wanna get it out there, see what people think about it.

Pretty much I feel like the entire d/d set for Thief screams single target direct damage burst but when you use the set you pretty much only use 1,2, and 5. 4 is pretty good in the right situations. But the 3 is hardly useful for any direct damage build, and a d/d condition build ONLY uses 3 and nothing more, further more its a trash build (no offence if you use that build it’s just kinda silly, everyone who has played thief has tried it so don’t feel bad). This feels kinda wrong. The dodge weapon skill is nice but the initiative cost makes it hardly usable.

So anyways I was thinking that a rework (since they have been into that lately, and we have brought up reworks in the past) seems warranted. I had a few ideas for what might work as a d/d combo move but I wanna see what you think.

Tow Stab – Pull yourself to your target stabbing them when you arrive. Short range like 400-600 or something. Kind of like the spear 4 maybe even with how it cc’s yourself for a second or so. Adding cripple would probably be redundant with dagger 4. cost 3-5.

Tactical Retreat or Shadow Retreat/Sinister Strike – Maybe a 2 part move where you dodge backwards, second move being a stab that transfers condition. Sorta something like s/d 3 but with its own flare. Also keeping a weapon dodge on d/d would be nice. A condi transfer weapon skill would be neat on thief and would add nice utility to d/d while keeping the ability to have a condition type build with d/d sort of. Cost 2-3 for first part, 2-3 for second.

Double Stab – Stab your opponent with both daggers. Does similar damage that backstab does from the front (facestab) while not in stealth while being able to do same damage as backstab from stealth from any direction. So you could face stab someone with Double Stab from stealth and do the same damage as backstab, but at the cost of initiative. d/d is well known for it having superior damage to d/p but having less utility. This would reinforce that. cost 4-6

Had some other ideas but they seemed to have slipped my mind. Those are the ones I liked the best though. Just want your thoughts, although I’m sure the chances of something like this happening is slim, I really think the d/d combo ability could use some love. look forward to hearing your opinions.

Alternatively having death blossom just be single target and not bleed would work. Lowering the initiative cost to make it usable in a rotation. Or even making it just a dodge that jumps over your opponent in the same manner but doing no damage with a second part that’s like stabbing with both dagger, similar to the Double Stab ability suggested above. Dodge costing little initiative (1-3) but stab costing quite a bit(3-5).

I understand that most of these options remove the whirl finisher from thief weapon skill sets. I’m not sure that that is very detrimental, though, seeing as the skill isn’t very usable anyways and whirl finisher in d/d doesn’t give the kit very much.

I agree that we need a clear separation between Condition and Power weapon sets.

GW2 is already limited enough with its skill-selection we don’t need further reduction from poor synergy.

But it’s difficult to draw a clear line when there are so many weapon combinations.

a separation between single target/aoe would also be nice.
1: single target direct damage / small poison part
2: single target direct damage / gap closer
3: 3 targets condition / evade
4: 4 targets direct damage / cripple
5: single target direct damage / stealth

to me 3 and 4 should be reworked to better fit in a single target burst weapon set.
maybe
3: single target direct damage / 1/4s evade + 3s protection
4: single target direct damage / immobilize – no more bounce.

D/D is a hybrid damage set which workes great. The fact that 3 and 4 are finisher moves allows you to apply other conditions than bleeds (if you know what a combo field is).

Above posts are a good example for not understanding the actual strengsths of the D/D set and all the suggestions just a call for simplifications and would lead to D/D becoming a one trick pony.

Personally I am against all those suggestions.

It’s ok to have different opinions.
Personally I don’t think hybrid is viable and that’s why I think each weapon set should be designed for a precise purpose.
If you’d like to go hybrid, he can choose 2 different weapon sets (1 condition – 1 power) and switch them, but if you want to go power o precision you’ll have more suitable skills

Dee Jay.2460:

I agree that we need a clear separation between Condition and Power weapon sets.

GW2 is already limited enough with its skill-selection we don’t need further reduction from poor synergy.

But it’s difficult to draw a clear line when there are so many weapon combinations.

Although I agree, I’d rather see constructive feedback/suggestions rather than just talking things down.

Daendur.2357:

a separation between single target/aoe would also be nice.
1: single target direct damage / small poison part
2: single target direct damage / gap closer
3: 3 targets condition / evade
4: 4 targets direct damage / cripple
5: single target direct damage / stealth

to me 3 and 4 should be reworked to better fit in a single target burst weapon set.
maybe
3: single target direct damage / 1/4s evade + 3s protection
4: single target direct damage / immobilize – no more bounce.

I like the idea of single target imob on dancing dagger but the 4 hit 100% projectile finisher is really nice. Using it in a dark field with 2+ targets yields a lot of heals and damage.

Bazzoong.7145:

D/D is a hybrid damage set which workes great. The fact that 3 and 4 are finisher moves allows you to apply other conditions than bleeds (if you know what a combo field is).

Above posts are a good example for not understanding the actual strengsths of the D/D set and all the suggestions just a call for simplifications and would lead to D/D becoming a one trick pony.

Personally I am against all those suggestions.

True it is a hybrid set and using combo finisher effectively is very important and I can see using both 3 and 4 with teammates combo fields being effective. Using d/d with rampagers would probably work in this situation while sacrificing a lot of survivability. Although making an effective d/d hybrid combo build seems like it would be really ineffective in most situations honestly, I see what you are going for. I really would like to see one. I still feel that the d/d set lacks synergy with itself. Once again I’m not looking to point fingers or talk people down, just looking for suggestions. If you have a solid build that uses all of d/d effectively I would love to see it. I also feel that d/d in it’s current state can only be a “one trick pony” because of its lack of synergy with itself. you can either use only 1,2,5 with direct damage or 3,4 with conditions which is rather limiting. Adding synergy with itself would allow for more situation awareness and the proper use of said weapon skills would make the set more flexible. The opposite of a “one trick pony”. Instead of having just one or 2 moves to use at the right time, you could have 5, is kind of the point I’m trying to make.

Once again I’m not looking to blatantly insult people and their opinions, I just want to know what you think. If you disagree that’s fine, of course, it would simply be more beneficial if you give constructive reasoning behind why you disagree rather than just insulting or assuming stupidity/ignorance. This is coming from someone who loves the d/d set and just wants to see it get some love, seeing as most consider it trash in comparison to other sets for a slew of reasons.

I wouldn’t like to see d/d 3 getting reworked as the Deathblossom can add a nice juke/evade at cost of initiative but i found that regardless of the low damage, by managing to apply bleeds even as a power/crit build, it puts extra pressure on my target.

I don’t know why but i get the feeling that people using the argument of “initiative waste” for a skill really don’t realize that because by having 15 points into critical strikes you have “Opportunist” which really, for a fast hitting crit build, will regain you initiative back quick as long as you can stay on your target. If your still having trouble managing initative by using skills such as deathblossom, heartseaker i would suggest running it in par with Infiltrator’s Signet to add that extra ini regen.

What i would consider a wasted initiative is when you use a skill that is dodged or doesnt connect. Much like i find spamming #2 to be a waste of initiative and a death sentence to any thief that tries to HS me to death as all i have to do is evade, Deathblossom, evade, see when he stops and counter strike him with.

In conjunction to deathblossom, using p/p as your secondary weapon set with sigil of earth on 1 pistol, can really stack up bleeds on your target only for that extra pressure with no effort. Using conditions on a Power/crit build isnt really wasted since the damage is still fairly decent (but remember, its not your main damage source).

When i think dps, i think constant damage pressure. Regardless of damage source, as long as i can apply some damage on my opponent which could preasure him into making mistakes i have the advantage, since they rely on cooldowns, and i only need to manage critting for the initiative regen :P

Cronicle.5691:

I wouldn’t like to see d/d 3 getting reworked as the Deathblossom can add a nice juke/evade at cost of initiative but i found that regardless of the low damage, by managing to apply bleeds even as a power/crit build, it puts extra pressure on my target.

I don’t know why but i get the feeling that people using the argument of “initiative waste” for a skill really don’t realize that because by having 15 points into critical strikes you have “Opportunist” which really, for a fast hitting crit build, will regain you initiative back quick as long as you can stay on your target. If your still having trouble managing initative by using skills such as deathblossom, heartseaker i would suggest running it in par with Infiltrator’s Signet to add that extra ini regen.

What i would consider a wasted initiative is when you use a skill that is dodged or doesnt connect. Much like i find spamming #2 to be a waste of initiative and a death sentence to any thief that tries to HS me to death as all i have to do is evade, Deathblossom, evade, see when he stops and counter strike him with.

In conjunction to deathblossom, using p/p as your secondary weapon set with sigil of earth on 1 pistol, can really stack up bleeds on your target only for that extra pressure with no effort. Using conditions on a Power/crit build isnt really wasted since the damage is still fairly decent (but remember, its not your main damage source).

When i think dps, i think constant damage pressure. Regardless of damage source, as long as i can apply some damage on my opponent which could preasure him into making mistakes i have the advantage, since they rely on cooldowns, and i only need to manage critting for the initiative regen :P

I actually do use infiltrator signet in my regular build, I also use the Signet Use trait for extra ini on demand. True there are certain situations where Death Blossom is in fact useful, like when you are immobilized and need to dodge something like Mesmer flurry or as you were saying HS spam. Thing is in those situations, afterwards, even with the extra ini regen and popping signets, I usually find myself pretty low on ini. Cloak and Dagger is a staple and using 4 ini can really be a detriment. Still though, it’s all about situational awareness with thief and using it at the wrong time should be punished. I do agree that it does provide decent pressure and utility while also providing a whirl finisher which is neat although I guess I’m just not that good at using the whirl very well just yet. I guess I just feel it is a good move, but doesn’t feel like it synergizes well with the set, and would like to see some improvement to the move itself. I don’t necessarily think the move is bad, just that it doesn’t feel like it fits, but I guess that personal. But that’s why I posted this. Wanna hear what other people think. I do appreciate your input. Looking forward to further feedback. =D

Also just to clarify, what I’m mostly looking for here are your opinions on the current state of d/d 3 and any thoughts or suggestions you might have on making it better, or if its just fine the way it is. Would also love suggestions on what you would like to see in its place, if given the option.

d/d 3:
Charge a powerful attack with both daggers.
The more time you charge it the more damage you deal.
Take root at your place while charging.
2 ini/s

Damage will be calculated on the amount of initiative spent and will significantly increase with it

A sort of Churning Earth

As a condition thief, I love Death Blossom. I can evade, reposition, and spread bleed on multiple foes in 1 skill. And the dagger auto dishes poison on its 3rd chain skill. But those skills don’t gel with HS and even CnD because BS will hit like a feather as a condition spec. If you could combine the condition skills from D/D & P/D into 1 set I’d be so happy.

I love the retreat/torment of P/D#3, its auto attack bleeds, and its stealth skill stacks bleeds. If you could somehow put DB on P/D I’d be so happy. And make the auto chain bleed>bleed>poison. And then make dagger’s auto 3rd chain dish weakness or vuln instead of poison. And then make the D/D #3 a power-based attack.

Replace pistol#2 with a pistol version of Death Blossom, whereby the thief leaps over the target (just like in DB) and fires a scattergun type spread at up to 3 targets & bleed (just like DB). Lose none of the functionality but just make it a pistol skill. Then we won’t need an immob because we’d have 2 movement skills (#2 & #3).

Daendur.2357:

d/d 3:
Charge a powerful attack with both daggers.
The more time you charge it the more damage you deal.
Take root at your place while charging.
2 ini/s

Damage will be calculated on the amount of initiative spent and will significantly increase with it

A sort of Churning Earth

That sounds really cool! Love the idea. Still waiting on thief rifle where the stealth shot uses all ini and does more damage the more ini it uses. =P

Seras.5702:

As a condition thief, I love Death Blossom. I can evade, reposition, and spread bleed on multiple foes in 1 skill. And the dagger auto dishes poison on its 3rd chain skill. But those skills don’t gel with HS and even CnD because BS will hit like a feather as a condition spec. If you could combine the condition skills from D/D & P/D into 1 set I’d be so happy.

I love the retreat/torment of P/D#3, its auto attack bleeds, and its stealth skill stacks bleeds. If you could somehow put DB on P/D I’d be so happy. And make the auto chain bleed>bleed>poison. And then make dagger’s auto 3rd chain dish weakness or vuln instead of poison. And then make the D/D #3 a power-based attack.

Replace pistol#2 with a pistol version of Death Blossom, whereby the thief leaps over the target (just like in DB) and fires a scattergun type spread at up to 3 targets & bleed (just like DB). Lose none of the functionality but just make it a pistol skill. Then we won’t need an immob because we’d have 2 movement skills (#2 & #3).

Yes I totally agree. Death Blossom fits really well into a condition set but unfortunately the whole d/d set is all schizophrenic. It wants to be everything but making a build that uses everything is just, I guess, beyond my reach. I have tried and failed to make some sort of hybrid build with it and just ended up going back to power. Tried a condi build and p/d is just better for it. Uses less ini for more condi and more survivability.

I was actually talking to a friend about something just like this today. What he proposed is change the d/d 3 to something like one of the above suggestions (our favorite is the condi transfer/evade 2 part move) and move the whirl finisher to the p/p set. make Unload a Devil May Cry style whirling thing just like Death Blossom but instead of with daggers, it would be while rapid firing the pistols. So like combining Unload and Death Blossom, keeping the evade even. A lot of people seem to complain about Unload spammers anyways. I really liked the suggestion, sounds really awesome. If you ever equip d/d and p/p at the same time, try using Unload then switching weapons, or maybe use Death Blossom then switch. Either way you have to use the move and switch at almost the exact same time and on your screen it looks sorta like what I’m talking bout here that would be cool.

On a side note, I by no means expect any of this to ever actually happen. I just really enjoy thinking about what might be cool in this game and talking about what you guys think about it. Viable? Silly? Down right awesome? What do you think?

Viable? Yes. Silly? Potentially. Downright awesome? Heck yea!

Shadow Frenzy – Strike your target with 5 lighting quick attacks while evading. The last hit does bonus damage and transfers a condition to your foe. This would sort of be like most multi hit moves except it would move you forward/towards your target at around 0.75(75%) movement speed while evading like mesmer Blurred frenzy. Further more it would be single target. Could maybe even combine it with Daendur.2357 idea where you can charge it and does more damage the longer you charge it. The first 4 attacks would do about the same damage as Double Strike, the last hit doing damage around the same as Wild Strike. the condi transfer on the last hit would be rather hard to land, would most likely require a steal or some sort of shadow step right before to land on someone who knows its coming, which would be neat.

I would personally like to see something that allows D/D to go toe to toe with more melees, like Black Powder currently does as well as providing some much needed AoE/Cleave damage.

First I was thinking – Anticipating Strike – Stand ready and should your enemy attack, you evade his strike him below his armor causing X damage and adding 5 stacks of Vulnerability. It also turns an active boon into a condition for 6 seconds.

So kind of like those Mesmer counter-moves. It would be a fairly new skill for the Thief skill-set but it lacks real AoE. So maybe a copy of Diablo 3’s “7-sided strike” would be cooler.

7-sided strike – lash out at your foe 7 times in a blurred frenzy. Each attack hits a target within 300 range for X. The thief is invulnerable during the 3 second animation.

Problem is, it would be very similar to Pistol Whip in a number of ways….but the same could be said about Death Blossom. The attack would also be quite potent against single targets, which might not be exactly what D/D needs.

First off, I must admit that I like the current dual skill. Weapon sets should be focused, but every skill needs a reason to be used. Another vanilla direct damage skill would be pointless. Besides, variety is the spice of life, right?

With that in mind, however, I present several alternatives!

• Death’s Passage – Distract your opponent with an offhand strike, then whirl around your target and stabbing them in the back. (Like a BAMF. Imagine that skritt!)
  1/4 Second, 5 Initiative
  - First Strike Damage: 201 (1.2)
  - Second Strike Damage: 544 (2.14)
  - Blind: 1/2 Seconds
  - Finisher: Whirl

• Assassin’s Escape – Stab your target in the shoulders, flipping over them and double kicking to launch both you and your target apart. (Parkour, anyone?)
  _5 Initiative
  - Damage (2x): 501 (1.5)
  - Kick Damage: 188 (1.0)
  - Knockback: 600
  - Finisher: Leap

Take these as you will. I, at least, had fun coming up with them.

Dee Jay.2460:

I would personally like to see something that allows D/D to go toe to toe with more melees, like Black Powder currently does as well as providing some much needed AoE/Cleave damage.

First I was thinking – Anticipating Strike – Stand ready and should your enemy attack, you evade his strike him below his armor causing X damage and adding 5 stacks of Vulnerability. It also turns an active boon into a condition for 6 seconds.

So kind of like those Mesmer counter-moves. It would be a fairly new skill for the Thief skill-set but it lacks real AoE. So maybe a copy of Diablo 3’s “7-sided strike” would be cooler.

7-sided strike – lash out at your foe 7 times in a blurred frenzy. Each attack hits a target within 300 range for X. The thief is invulnerable during the 3 second animation.

Problem is, it would be very similar to Pistol Whip in a number of ways….but the same could be said about Death Blossom. The attack would also be quite potent against single targets, which might not be exactly what D/D needs.

I love both idea’s. I actually was thinking about something like the 7-side strike the other day. Kinda like Feora’s ult in LoL. would be pretty neat.

Diak Atoli.2085:

First off, I must admit that I like the current dual skill. Weapon sets should be focused, but every skill needs a reason to be used. Another vanilla direct damage skill would be pointless. Besides, variety is the spice of life, right?

With that in mind, however, I present several alternatives!

• Death’s Passage – Distract your opponent with an offhand strike, then whirl around your target and stabbing them in the back. (Like a BAMF. Imagine that skritt!)
  1/4 Second, 5 Initiative
  - First Strike Damage: 201 (1.2)
  - Second Strike Damage: 544 (2.14)
  - Blind: 1/2 Seconds
  - Finisher: Whirl

• Assassin’s Escape – Stab your target in the shoulders, flipping over them and double kicking to launch both you and your target apart. (Parkour, anyone?)
  _5 Initiative
  - Damage (2x): 501 (1.5)
  - Kick Damage: 188 (1.0)
  - Knockback: 600
  - Finisher: Leap

Take these as you will. I, at least, had fun coming up with them.

Haha very creative to say the least. Like them both. I like variety and as you can see by most of these suggestions, no one would want another “vanilla” direct damage move either. =P Just kinda feel “spam 3” should never be a build design, or even a viable strategy in the least bit.
On a side note, adding a CC to ANY of thieves weapon skills would be way too easy to abuse so keep that in mind.

I don’t have much to say against Death Blossom, but I while reading through this I suddenly had the crazy idea to swap DB with Unload for the P/P build, with some minor variations.

D/D’s version of Unload would be several dagger strikes in a row for flat damage (think of a warrior’s 100 Blades but less overall damage to account for the fact you can cast it while moving around a target).

P/P’s version of Death Blossom would have the same animation/evasion as the D/D skill, but its attack ranged would be about equal to the range of the auto attack. As well, it would shoot up to three targets three times each (unless something gets in the way), but come with a higher initiative cost to prevent it from being used as a core skill and spammed. Physical Projectile finisher makes more logical sense for this skill, but since you’re still spinning around, whirl isn’t too much of a stretch.

Keyce.8137:

I don’t have much to say against Death Blossom, but I while reading through this I suddenly had the crazy idea to swap DB with Unload for the P/P build, with some minor variations.

D/D’s version of Unload would be several dagger strikes in a row for flat damage (think of a warrior’s 100 Blades but less overall damage to account for the fact you can cast it while moving around a target).

P/P’s version of Death Blossom would have the same animation/evasion as the D/D skill, but its attack ranged would be about equal to the range of the auto attack. As well, it would shoot up to three targets three times each (unless something gets in the way), but come with a higher initiative cost to prevent it from being used as a core skill and spammed. Physical Projectile finisher makes more logical sense for this skill, but since you’re still spinning around, whirl isn’t too much of a stretch.

Both of these have already been suggested, and I agree it would be an awesome switch that would most likely work really well to synergize both sets with themselves.

Daendur.2357:

d/d 3:
Charge a powerful attack with both daggers.
The more time you charge it the more damage you deal.
Take root at your place while charging.
2 ini/s

Damage will be calculated on the amount of initiative spent and will significantly increase with it

A sort of Churning Earth

Being rooted in place is probably the worst thing for a thief.

reworking death blossom to a completely new attack is silly. Despite the OP’s opinion that D/D condition is a “trash build” it’s actually perfectly viable when played cirrectly with the appropriate gear.

Deathblossom is a toolbox skill that has a single fatal flaw: it doesn’t evade for the full frame.

If you’re playing D/D in a straight up power build, deathblossom is the skill that lets you stick in a fight a little longer, by giving you extra evades… or it used to be before its evade was nerfed.

In a bleed/bunker/steal spec, Deathblossom does the same thing, only you’re playing full defense and getting the majority of your damage from the bleeds.

I actually quit P/D and moved to D/D evasion because I wanted to build a more brawly thief. P/D is a great set for 1v1, but in groupfights it’s pretty limited and really light on damage. The recent change to body shot helps it a lot, but honestly, it’s a build that does less damage than D/D, is more prone to condition cleansing, and falls apart in a zerg fight or point defense/capping scenario. On the upside you can use it to sleep through PvE, and it’s really good in !v! fights, or 1vX against people who aren’t very smart/haven’t played thieves.

Shoehorning thief weapons in to one or the other build type is silly. We’re the only class where the design of an entire rotation doesn’t apply due to initiative, ans as such the only class where it makes sense to have weapons that can be played with multiple build specs, sometimes ignoring or underusing a button (I don’t C&D much on my build, but I use every other attack pretty regularly)

It doesn’t need to be changed to something more direct because D/D already has a fantastic toolset for what it does in power/crit configurations, which is massive backstabs and big burst, and it has a role in those builds as an emergency evade.

What needs to be fixed is that secondary role. The evade on deathblossom was nerfed when condition removal was a lot less prolific/well understood, but when it worked it worked extremely well. Currently, deathblossom’s claim to fame is that it can proc up to 15 activations of signet of malice each hit, with an average heal of 140 that’s 2100 HP per use, while evading in a zerg fight, and that’s not counting any additional healing you might be picking up from assassin’s reward, caltrops ticks, shortbow poison field ticks… etc. That’s powerful, but situational, and it tends to fall apart in smaller scale PvP where humans are smart enough to hammer the last bit of the animation where the evade has worn off and you can’t cancel it. Fix that, and you’ve fixed deathblossom, for both condi and power builds.

Kaizer.7135:

Daendur.2357:

d/d 3:
Charge a powerful attack with both daggers.
The more time you charge it the more damage you deal.
Take root at your place while charging.
2 ini/s

Damage will be calculated on the amount of initiative spent and will significantly increase with it

A sort of Churning Earth

Being rooted in place is probably the worst thing for a thief.

It’s the downside of a big dmg out of stealth… like 100blades.
imagine of it’s possibilities: shadow refuge – charge 12/15 initiative – teleport ….

PopeUrban.2578:

SNIP

I have talked about this before and tried just about every incarnation of the build, with Venoms with Caltrops, with different stat set ups, with different traits, with different secondary weapons. A condi set with D/D is literally just “spam 3, regen ini, spam 3 more, maybe stealth and run” and most your ini regen will get you closer to your opponent (like Infiltrators Signet with Signet Use or Steal with Kleptomaniac). Which even if you could consider that a viable strategy, the damage is minimal at best. It’s never a threat even in a team fight. Back when condi wasn’t even a meta and people ran minimal condi cleanse you couldn’t stack much bleed on anyone with sense at all even with all bleed duration runes. These days condi cleanse is a must in every build, and I don’t mean passive 3 condi’s every 10 sec like what used to be acceptable, I mean actively being able to burst cleanse in an AoE. You think those bleeds would do ANYTHING to ANY comp that has any sense at all? This is coming from the Thief that has theory crafted the Thief profession in every possible way you could imagine, and some you haven’t. I’m not someone who’s new to Thief, I have over 2k hours on the class. Honestly I’m sure most thieves who are proud of their class have done the same. In fact I’m sure you have as well. Don’t get me wrong, as I have said pretty much every thief has tried it. It’s kinda fun just as it’s usually fun to try something new.

P/D can condi burst as hard as Necro when done right except its single target instead of AoE. A much more viable option either way. I have never seen D/D condi burst. Show me and I will be impressed, intrigued, and astounded.

I REALLY love when people assume that someone has no experience just because. I’m trying to be as civil as possible here and understand there are some people who enjoy the general idea behind the original death blossom. If so, just say so. You don’t need to do it while being insulting or assuming people are lesser than your almighty benevolence.

I do however agree that the current D/D set excluding Death Blossom is a great kit for direct damage. I love the set, I always have. But as I have stated before, blowing initiative on Death Blossom may save you from that one burst when you are immobilized, but directly afterwards you better have something to get out like Shadow Refuge or Shadow Step or you are boned. The rarity of such a perfect situation begs for a move that fits the whole set more cohesively. Something that gives that utility while also contributing to the set as a whole, not a standalone move that can only be used effectively in a build that is overall flawed.

I do enjoy your comments on how the ability is simply flawed and just needs to be tweaked to be useful once again. This is a very good suggestion that could have been presented in a much more constructive manner. No one responds well to aggression, thus why I try to avoid it so much. The last bit of your reply is full of insight that I agree with completely, as I used to zerg dive with Death Blossom and Malice back in the day. Fun times. Having variety on a set with a class based on ini instead of cooldowns makes sense but one move vs four seems a bit stacked. Then conditions got too strong, Death Blossom got it’s evade broken around the same time. Lethal combo for a once fun to use move. Worst part, even after breaking it they made it cost more ini, which was a huge bummer.

Man I just typed so much stuff.

This is a very long post. If you don’t want to read it don’t ask for a TLDR. Just ignore it.

Arki:

I’m sorry you feel that my response was hostile or belittling. It was in very similar tone to your OP. It wasn’t my intent to be either, just and honest selection of my opinions on the subject.

I’ve long been a proponent/user of Signet of Malice based builds, basically ever since mad king runes were released (because MK runes are what make SoM actually useful) and I’ve always approached my thief as a holistic character built to sustain, contain, and stomp.

Both of these are contrary to the normal FOTM or a lot of people’s percieved roles for the thief, but in our group composition, where my thief is constantly attached at the hip to a condi necro and a couple of dps rangers my role as target containment guy works. I power through conditions with passive heals rather than cleanse them because they’re ammo for my necro. I use Deathblossom because it adds not only to my defense, but also supports my teammates via combo interactions while using it. I trait for 30 in to trickery because the support power is good, and because having daze on a 20 second steal is an amazing interrupt I can use without swapping weapons.

I feel that group composition is something people don’t spend a lot of time designing for in GW2, because you can get away without doing so. In our case we’ve organically altered builds for the past year for a specific synergy. When you’re using deathblossom in necro wells and are filling the “sustain and contain” role a lot of teams would use a guardian for, you start to see thief a little differently.

In terms of damage, The condi burst on D/D versus P/D (both sets I’ve used extensively) is as easy and looking at it in terms of stacks/time. You talk about the cleanse, which is an everpresent concern for condi thief builds, but this is also why I feel like D/D has better damage output. Basically, P/D relies on stacking and maintaining bleeds long term, but the spacing of those applications is reliant on your ability to close, hit with CnD, and land bleeds. Stacking condition duration is the normally accepted way to build this, but the problem with the theory vesus the practice is that you’ll never get even half of your bleed duration on the large majority of targets in real PvP situations. In addition, owing simply to its use as a ranged weapon, the white damage component of your bread and butter sneak attack is remarkably reduced.

I look at condi thief damage in terms of the first two or three bleed ticks. Deathblossom has a more compressed set of bleed damage, and that compression leads targets to clearing sooner. In addition, the overall white damage of dagger auto, with a free poison, and deathblossom’s white damage tends to output more reliable real world damage numbers. Basically, you get more upfront burst from the white damage, and more overall bleed damage before it is cleansed due to two build in cover conditions (poison and weakness) that you get for free from the auto.

Finally, you have options when using deathblossom that you just don’t when using P/D. You can get respectable spike damage from heartseeker to help finish targets, you have a plethora of reactionary evades, and most importantly, your entire build doesn’t break when you miss a few CnDs.

You’re absolutely right, playing deathblossom like it’s a burst build doesn’t work as you’re stuck with one and only one condition, and you’ve asted all of your initiative on a stack of bleeds that anyone can cleanse quite easily.

My general attack chain looks like:
auto chain until target uses a CD
Dodge that CD, leaving the target with some dodgetrop bleeds
deathblossom back on to target

sometimes in stead wing them with a danging dagger to screw up their timing if they get clever.

When I know they don’t have any good cooldowns left to smash me out of my evade frames I’ll spam down some deathblossoms then immediately disengage with another dodge.

I’ll steal and use steals to break up combat, but I try to rid myself of stolen items ASAP and I use steal as an interrupt to give me a few free seconds for deathblossom.

I use shadow refuge for the combo effect, not the stealth, as fighting inside of it adds to my passive heals via whirl combos, and using it as a distanced emergency measure allows me to heal about half of my HP with dancing dagger.

I use both shadowstep and roll for initative to maintain mobility, and as a clutch initative reserve for emergencies.

I use the synergy between mad king runes and basilisk venom to have a reliable active heal that doesn’t look like an active heal. This also turns basilisk venom in to a ranged stun without having to use a ranged attack, which is nice. It also generally autotargets to closest enemy with the birds, and that first hit is what stuns. I also like mad king runes because they help to round out damage, giving a solid boost to bleed duration, and a nice bump to white damage, making the build a bit more versatile in damage types.

I use Improvisation because it allows the build to thrive on its moment to moment gameplay, making it a bit more unpredictable and difficult for opponents to read my cooldowns and punish me for them. Also because of the nice passive boosts from having 20 in deadly arts.

For zergs and PvE I use caltrops rather than shadowstep and daggerstorm rather than basilisk venom. Because mobs are stupid, and zergs don’t/can’t pay attention, and in both cases this results in a lot of free HP for me to just go nuts and still have a free out by using (the newly fixed! yay!) RFI>shortbow>infiltrator’s arrowx2 to clear out of the fight.

In Spvp I use lyssa runes in stead of mad king runes, though the build is a bit less effective for the lack of the mad king synergy. Luckily, I don’t like sPvP much and mostly do WvW.

So, yeah, I typed many things, but this is just a single example of why taking skills and turning them in to wholly different skills is generally a bad idea. Rangers still complain about it for good reason. When you say “change this to this totally different thing” you’re going to be fundamentally altering someone’s build somewhere. When you completely gut the functionality of a skill you may very well be destroying a build in the process.

A good example of change is flanking strike. It was a skill that was functionally altered, but in a way that had it keep the role it already had, and made it easier to use. You could accomplish a similar thing by adding the evade back to the end of dancing dagger, and if necessary removing its autotargeting functionality and having it be ground targeted so that it could better function as an escape/positioning mechanism for power builds. This would make it a little harder to use for damage, but not so much that it would destroy the skill, and it would open up new options for bleed builds to also use it as an escape mechanism.

nah, DD is as strong as it is you just know when to use skills, what we need is more damage since we have least impact in zerg fights, more range and damage on that steal without traiting it. if i make a suggestion re make the signet of shadows, movement mix it with signet of infiltrators. and signet of shadows make it stealth duration and refil endurance, and make basilisk venom daze not like ordinary stun for 2 secs.

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

@Pope Urban
That actually sounds like a really interesting build. Seeing as the game is balanced around team play and not 1v1 it makes a lot of sense. Too bad Mad King Runes aren’t in sPvP but still it’s definitely a cool build, I’ll have to try it out. I agree that simply tweaking the move itself to work well for both build types would probably be good for everyone who likes the weapon set. With that said I still feel that something really should be done to “fix” the ability as it is fundamentally flawed at the moment in my opinion.

infantrydiv.1620:

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Charges-instead-of-Chance-on-Crit-Hit/

is how I feel about that.

Arkitech.9158:

infantrydiv.1620:

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Charges-instead-of-Chance-on-Crit-Hit/

is how I feel about that.

What of “Every X hits”? For example, for one of the trait, gain 1 initiative every 10th Crit. It would’ve have your idea implemented and works for traits too.

@OP, if you compare d/d 3 with other dual skills, it seems really balanced. D/d 3 can hit multiple targets, grants dodges, does roughly the same damages as any other dual skills with the exception of s/p. But I’m not justifying that d/d 3 is good as it is. I do think that all dual skills needs a rework of some sort

Sesundar.3501:

Arkitech.9158:

infantrydiv.1620:

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Charges-instead-of-Chance-on-Crit-Hit/

is how I feel about that.

What of “Every X hits”? For example, for one of the trait, gain 1 initiative every 10th Crit. It would’ve have your idea implemented and works for traits too.

@OP, if you compare d/d 3 with other dual skills, it seems really balanced. D/d 3 can hit multiple targets, grants dodges, does roughly the same damages as any other dual skills with the exception of s/p. But I’m not justifying that d/d 3 is good as it is. I do think that all dual skills needs a rework of some sort

It is mentioned in the thread. The charges thing would be better as it would allow you to know when it would happen, same concept just with a way to see where it is. It would also allow for counter play.

also you should post things related to that thread in that thread and not here, thanks. =]

Yeah I agree that the idea of the skill itself is good, just right now its a bit lacking. Back when it costed 3 initiative it worked well in a rotation for both condi and power. Now it seems it got nerfed in 3 different ways and is almost unusable in power builds and moderately useful in condi. But as Pope has stated, it still has its uses in team scenarios when using combo fields and having condi classes in your comp. I still feel its unfortunate if you get caught alone your only option with that build is to run, or at least it seems that way.

Arkitech.9158:

infantrydiv.1620:

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Charges-instead-of-Chance-on-Crit-Hit/

is how I feel about that.

well, perhaps it could add stack of torment to the second skill in the dagger chain, and 1 stack of torment to the third. that would make it so that people wanting to use dagger for condi application would have to try and stick on a target maybe synergizing with dagger #4

infantrydiv.1620:

Arkitech.9158:

infantrydiv.1620:

How about putting a grandmaster trait in Deadly Arts that gave dagger autoattacks a chance to proc either torment or bleeding?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Charges-instead-of-Chance-on-Crit-Hit/

is how I feel about that.

well, perhaps it could add stack of torment to the second skill in the dagger chain, and 1 stack of torment to the third. that would make it so that people wanting to use dagger for condi application would have to try and stick on a target maybe synergizing with dagger #4

Not to sound harsh, but that would be entirely ridiculous. The set is 4/5 abilities that support a power build and 1 that supports condi anyways. The whole point I’m really trying to make here is D/D isn’t a condi set, but Death Blossom is a condi move. It would be nice if they either made Death blossom a viable tool in a power kit or change it to a move that would work in a power kit. If they can do so while also bolstering it for condi builds that would be nice as well. Such as for Pope who swears up and down that its viable. I still feel its lacking as a move in both departments, though. Although he is honestly the first Thief i have ever heard of who seriously considers D/D condi a viable build. I know every Thief has tried it, and dismissed it. Except Pope I guess.

Revert Pistol #2 functionality to pre-Oct 15. Then swap Death Blossom’s functionality with Pistol #2. Adjust initiative costs for balance. Viola! You now have vulnerability stacking on D/D (power builds) and you have an aoe bleed/evade on pistol (condition builds).

Seras.5702:

Revert Pistol #2 functionality to pre-Oct 15. Then swap Death Blossom’s functionality with Pistol #2. Adjust initiative costs for balance. Viola! You now have vulnerability stacking on D/D (power builds) and you have an aoe bleed/evade on pistol (condition builds).

I think the addition of immobilize on pistol is really nice and makes 2 actually usable where it used to be completely useless/waste of initiative. It was a good change. Also pistol already has the ability to bleed so it would be a weird addition. It can even AoE bleed with ricochet trait. Although adding more vuln to D/D would make sense I agree, even though it already has vuln on CnD, adding it to a move you can only use ever 3(4 in sPvP) would be neat. But I assume its there for a reason.

A friend of mine suggested an ability something like Katarina’s shunpo from LoL. Like a shadow step behind your opponent at the cost of ini. Seems a bit much but just another idea.

A few things that came to mind when I read through this thread:

• Death Blossom is capable of stacking over 20 bleeds on it’s own. That is enough incentive for people to play D/D as a condition weapon. It may not be the strongest way to play this weapon, it is certainly possible. (Personally I like to stack 20 bleeds on monsters in PvE and then run away to heal up while my bleeds do all the work from there)

• Plenty of players like this skill and love their condi-thief. If the skill gets changed to do something else entirely… many of these thieves will not only lose their pet build, but also have outrageously expensive condition gear that is now much less useful or even useless. (Ascended trinkets/daggers even)

• Does the D/D set need anything else in particular? Is the weaponset currently not viable?

Basically: what is the cost of changing this skill to have better synergy with the power approach?

The Lost Witch.7601:

A few things that came to mind when I read through this thread:

• Death Blossom is capable of stacking over 20 bleeds on it’s own. That is enough incentive for people to play D/D as a condition weapon. It may not be the strongest way to play this weapon, it is certainly possible. (Personally I like to stack 20 bleeds on monsters in PvE and then run away to heal up while my bleeds do all the work from there)

• Plenty of players like this skill and love their condi-thief. If the skill gets changed to do something else entirely… many of these thieves will not only lose their pet build, but also have outrageously expensive condition gear that is now much less useful or even useless. (Ascended trinkets/daggers even)

• Does the D/D set need anything else in particular? Is the weaponset currently not viable?

Basically: what is the cost of changing this skill to have better synergy with the power approach?

The point is it feels wrong to make a build all around a single move. I understand people have builds that work this way, but hardly any Thief that takes themselves seriously actually runs it. Maybe for fun, maybe for lol’s, but realistically it just makes for a miss matched weapon set. Ask any Thief and D/P is more viable in every manner. D/D does more damage and takes less ini but has much less utility and is much harder to use. I feel like the best part about D/D is the high risk high reward. Death Blossom offers no reward at the cost of a lot of ini. I don’t mind keeping Death Blossom’s current mechanic, it just needs some work either way. Just trying to get some attention on it.

Actually been getting really good at using Death Blossom in my regular rotation with the latest buff to ini regen. Kinda annoying how it only dodges for half the animation but meh, It’s actually an effective move in a rotation now. =D

Personally, I would hate for Death Blossom to be replaced with a single target attack. Weapon sets need some degree of versatility. Having only single target attacks would make it a lot less usable in most PvE content, including just solo leveling/farming.

Arkitech.9158:

Actually been getting really good at using Death Blossom in my regular rotation with the latest buff to ini regen. Kinda annoying how it only dodges for half the animation but meh, It’s actually an effective move in a rotation now. =D

Yea, I’ve found the same. It’s a very niche skill, but it’s a helpful extra evade that does a decent AoE that helps against things like mesmer clones.

Dahkeus.8243:

Arkitech.9158:

Actually been getting really good at using Death Blossom in my regular rotation with the latest buff to ini regen. Kinda annoying how it only dodges for half the animation but meh, It’s actually an effective move in a rotation now. =D

Yea, I’ve found the same. It’s a very niche skill, but it’s a helpful extra evade that does a decent AoE that helps against things like mesmer clones.

Yeah exactly, its particularly useful against mesmer clones. And having to dodge while immobilized.

Still wish they would improve the dodge though.

Death Blossom is the cornerstone of my Apothecary build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYEQRAoY8Ylcm6OXcy5E+5EBPDnaUPFgtr6MoZLB-jECBYiDimkO0UBBKNtIas12FRjVPjIqWfEzcrIa1SB4nwK-w

I would like, however, a gear set that has Healing Power (primary) and Power/Condition Damage (rather than Toughness/Condition Damage) – my main defense comes from Healing Power, not Toughness, and a little more DPS from swapping out Toughness for more Power would be nice.

(Also, while I’m on the subject – gear with Healing Power/Condition Damage/Crit Dmg – Healing Power/Power/Crit Dmg – Healing Power/Precision/Condition Dmg – Healing Power/Power/Condition Dmg)

I like DB, but I think it can be improved:

1) Perhaps lower the Initiative cost by 1

2) The animation starts with a pause on launch, and then a pause at the end (stumble on dismount). I think it would be a massive improvement if the entire animation could be done while continuing to move fluidly in whatever direction you were already moving (much like the direction of a dodge roll can be controlled by pushing a movement key in the desired direction – DB should also work this way, instead of always attacking in the direction of the target – in addition to having a fluid movement that doesn’t break forward momentum). These changes would make ‘strafing’ runs with DB much easier to pull off.

3) Slightly increase the white damage on DB – or make it scale better with Power. Maybe give DB crits a slight bonus in damage as well, so that Precision helps out some. This would make it a true hybrid skill – if you put points into Condition Damage, then that portion of the skill will be strong – but if you put points into Power or Precision, then that portion of the skill will be stronger – as it is, only the Condition Damage portion is any good. Balance it so that it is strong wherever you put points – that’s the definition of an actual ‘hybrid’ skill.

The only thing Death Blossom needs is its evade frame back. The skill is simply too unreliable; far too often you’ll start your Death Blossom, spending your initiative, only to get hit (and often stunned, cancelling the Death Blossom) anyway; it’s infuriating when it happens. If the skill could be used as a reliable evasion that just happens to deal solid damage in a large AoE, it would be an outstanding tool for the weapon set.

Want to buff it a bit more? Use the same technology that has certain actions cancel your current action on activation (heals, dodge rolls) to allow Death Blossom to cancel your current action upon use; this would allow its use as a reactive dodge when already attacking. Many other skills would benefit from this immensely (in particular Pistol #4 and Sword #2).

I think the bleeding on Death Blossom is an essential component of the skill, especially for power builds. Since D/D is such a power focused set, it is very difficult to spec a significant investment in condition damage without severely limiting your build; as a result, the skill can inflict tons of long lasting conditions without being a balance problem. It gives the skill a clear niche in the set – as a skill to soften up foes with under-priced bleeds while evading – that you simply could not reproduce with a version of the skill without the bleeds.

Skill 3 is weak. The evade is 1/4 and the damage of it is AoE but too weak.
Either they make the evade 1 second or increase the damage.

Deathblossom is not weak in a Condition build. It a core of many builds that switch between d/d and p/d.

I think it would be wrong to force all condition users into using ranged weapons. DB is the only melee type attack that can inflict damaging conditions to any great degree. As AOE it also acts as a sort of cleave and is very effective at inflicting area effect damage on a thief that is near dead and dropped into Shadow refuge or taking out a mesmer that went inivso and sent up his clones.

As a Condi thief I also use dagger dagger to get my poison up rather then slot it on the bar. While this can be done with the poison on steal trait, the dagger helps to ensure it stays on until the next steal cycle. This slows heals and inflicts significant additional condition damage. In Combo with the bleeds a dagger dagger build using conditions can put up over 3k damage per tick using just those two if not cleansed. Flip between that and p/d with a sigil that does damage on weapon swap (ie hyrdomancy) and you can add on torments and chill as covers.

It simply incorrect to state it a direct damage set and would be wrong to convert DB from a condition attack to a direct damage.