Some thoughts on the thief

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: jcavlopes.1736

jcavlopes.1736

I’m a noob at the game as well as to the thief class, so excuse me if i say something ignorant. Perhaps you should take what i will develop here as a perspective that may bring some different(or not) insights on the class. Hopefully, developers of the game read this as well and work towards improving it.

I chose to play Thief as my first char on the game… guess I though it would be cool. And I got to say, really, I have been through a hard time coping with the class features, specially at pvp, because it’s really very differently designed from other games I’ve played a stealthed class so far – for better or worse. I have virtually no experience with other classes yet, but from what i’ve been reading and from the encounters i have experienced with them as a thief, it seems thieves are in a very undeserved spot. This kind of frustrates me quite a lot because to me the thief is a profession that has so much potential to shine just as much as any other but the current design makes it a very crippled class at best (well, at least from what i think what a thief as a stealth class should be featured with). So, I’m hoping to provide some analysis onto how the class game-play could be “fixed” in a general way, not so much as fixing a specific trait or build.

First of all, based on my previous experience with other games, i thought thief stealth mechanics was going work a lot differently. I guess you’ll probably know the type of stealth mechanics that i mean, but i’ll say how i expected it to work anyway.

I thought stealth would be a permanent feature of the class and by that I mean the player could switch on/off at will (only when out of combat, off course) through a special ‘go into stealth’ ability. Once in combat, he would be able to use another ability to stealth again to disengage combat but that would have a relative long cooldown(1 to 2 mins or so), something similar to what shadow refuge is currently, but you would gain indefinite stealth as long you don’t re-engage combat (also, this ability would give no indication as where the thief is stealthed, which is another bad taste feature developers of this game have opted to implement — I can see the point of indication for team mates but definitely not for the enemy team players). Usually, under these stealth mechanics, if you get by any chance hit with any type of damage or AoE action while in this indefinite stealth mode, you would enter combat and become visible.

Well, GW2 surprised me on this like a thief should: you can pop in and out of stealth whenever you like regardless if you are in combat or not. This sounds like a nice feature (and it is) and i really liked it at first. I think the in combat system is working fine where it is now, but having no ability that allows you to go into stealth mode/leave stealth mode out of combat permanently is a major disadvantage. That really is major loss, because, to me, any game that wants to really implement a stealth class to its full and efficiently, that class OUGHT to be able to get into stealth for an indefinite amount of time until it gets into a combat state.

I ask myself what is the main purpose of a stealth class? To surprise, to catch the enemy off-guard. Playing a thief should ALWAYS be about a head start when initiating a combat. Well, you wont surprise anyone if you are spotted far away even if you can briefly stealth before getting near your target. Your enemy will be aware that an attack is bound to happen and that’s enough to break the class game-play because now he is expecting you and can do something about it.

I know, i know. You are probably thinking: “Well, you can get some decent amount of stealth by using smoke field, shadow refuge, other utilities and work around that”. Sure you can, but usually, this is expensive to do (costs a lot of initiative, time to do it) and the thief will be left short handed if you fail to get to the place you want to go in time for setting an ambush.

Take an example: If you want to sneak attack the enemy team home node right from the start, think, for instance, of the time you would lose somewhere blasting a smoke screen with your short bow with smoke screen at the beginning of a sPvP match. You end up losing precious seconds doing that, not to mention that at the end of it you usually wouldn’t have enough initiative to use infiltrator’s arrow to compensate for the time lost. To sum up, it’s really not an effective way to do what real solid out of combat stealth would enable the class to do. The way it now is, it’s clumsy, expensive and unreliable.

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: jcavlopes.1736

jcavlopes.1736

Secondly, it seems to me that thieves lack damage mitigation or more generally speaking, avoidance of effects while in stealth. I don’t really have much of a quarrel with applying AoE effects in itself on a thief while he is stealthed, that seems fair enough. But some situations in the game when this happens are bordering absurdity. I’m ok, for instance, with a Ranger to drop Barrage and burning some of the thief’s health with its damage, but something bothers me for when he uses his sword ability and is still able to cleave damage if the thief is in range. If he cant see me, wouldn’t this attack miss a couple of times at least? It’s a complicated situation and i can see why he would still get his damage done. But the point i am trying to make is that, when you have no target, it should be harder to actually hit it. This wouldn’t bother me as much if you had more stealth time do doge the attack, keep a distance and re-position to do a backstab. But as it is 3 seconds is quite short time to move away and get back to land one of your main source of damage. Usually a way that other games enable a stealth class (actually to other melee classes as well) certain survivability against heavy AoE classes is to give them traits to mitigate AoE damage. This gets even worse if the ability he is using has some sort of effect like a stun or a knockback. And this brings me to a balance between class issue.

I’m under the impression that thieves lack solid CC abilities whilst other classes have many. Come on… Basilisk Venom for only 1 second, while other classes can knock you back, stun or whatever for much more than that? Having more time to deal your damage while you are required to flank your foes should be a way to compensate.

Well, i’m kind of tired of writing but I’d like continue on another time. I think many of you have thought about these questions and i’d like to hear your feedback.

Cheers

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Skeletor.9360

Skeletor.9360

Basically all thief builds rely on falshoods…

Stealth mitigates damage…it can…but armor does always…I can make you vulnerable by 1% as a thief…oh boy…

You are the high damage class. But I see warriors do equal damage to multiple targets….Rangers do single target damage from range and a single button press with no tell.

You have great mobility except other classes run and I can’t catch them….

You get blinds…woopie…every AOE still hits….armor still mitigates.

Here are the truths about thieves:

They get a low health pool.
They have no damage mitigation.
They have poor healing ability.
Their movement is no better than any other classes.
They can run away via stealth in 1 on 1’s but AOE’s stuns knockbacks fields etc stop that.
If you have lag and are a backstab thief just log off.
You have really crappy snare, dot removal ability….

Sure you can heal or remove conditions if you want to do no damage at all….from the damage class….

Massive lack of CC skills. At least we got a stealthed bow skill…woopie we have 1 now! Basilisk venom.,.,..ya its a joke.

The class really needs a overhaul…
Some useful traps…
Maybe some perma stealth or hide in place skills…
No more hide in your face skills but for blinding powder…So..1 every once in a while.
Removal of stealth needed for backstabs etc.
Stuns
trips
debility
snares
knock downs

Make it the CC and debuff class.
Sigh ….

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: the krytan assassin.9235

the krytan assassin.9235

Wow just lol….
might aswell give the tiefs a skill which makes him invulnerable for 10 minutes and give him wings in wvw so he can just fly in every tower.

Tbh i don’t know any class more tanky then the thief, you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited). You’re complaining about the fact that they lack surviveability, but the primary reason why they lack that surviveability is because you’re most likely going full beserker, what else do you expect then?

Also a permanent stealth button will cause nothing but trouble, since it will result in massive dungeonskipping and sneaking into enemy wvw keeps.

DDD|elementalist| Piken commander|RaW|

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: vincecontix.1264

vincecontix.1264

Wow just lol….
might aswell give the tiefs a skill which makes him invulnerable for 10 minutes and give him wings in wvw so he can just fly in every tower.

Tbh i don’t know any class more tanky then the thief, you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited). You’re complaining about the fact that they lack surviveability, but the primary reason why they lack that surviveability is because you’re most likely going full beserker, what else do you expect then?

Also a permanent stealth button will cause nothing but trouble, since it will result in massive dungeonskipping and sneaking into enemy wvw keeps.

Skeletor was exaggerating a little bit but you are wrong. In MMOs the word tank/tanky means one is able to soak up a lot of damage. The thief survive with active defense eg ports, evades, blinds and stealth.

The don’t tank damage also in group setting thief is probably one of the easier targets to focus down.

Shikamaru X Thief, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi(FT leader)
Highest ranked reached 28 soloq
Isle of Janthir

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

Wow just lol….
might aswell give the tiefs a skill which makes him invulnerable for 10 minutes and give him wings in wvw so he can just fly in every tower.

Tbh i don’t know any class more tanky then the thief, you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited). You’re complaining about the fact that they lack surviveability, but the primary reason why they lack that surviveability is because you’re most likely going full beserker, what else do you expect then?

Also a permanent stealth button will cause nothing but trouble, since it will result in massive dungeonskipping and sneaking into enemy wvw keeps.

Like vince said, thieves cannot tank. No matter how unicorn a thief gets, they cannot tank because their sustain is arguably the worst in this game. It’s overall sustain is poor because a thief’s max sustain is just above the game’s average sustain. So thief is practically a walking lootbag for any more-than-decent player.

Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta

(edited by yolo swaggins.2570)

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: the krytan assassin.9235

the krytan assassin.9235

well, yes maybe i was wrong in saying the word tanky, however whining about the choice of words is just simple minded. Like i explained the abilities the thief has to reduce the incoming amount of damage by evading/porting/stealthing completely takes away the fact that they have poor HP. Apart from that low HP pull it’s all about traiting, every1 who ever played a P/D thief knows that they have immense surviveability because of their traitline. It your own fault if you die if you want to be that guy who roles full zerker. Ever seen/played a zerker ele be4? that’s alot worse then thief (less armor, no stealth and less moveability) and therefore there aren’t alot of persons playing it.

when you complain about your surviveability just roll more defensive LTP by using your moveability+stealth+stuns and slowly work towards zerker again

DDD|elementalist| Piken commander|RaW|

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Jayden Ennok.3687

Jayden Ennok.3687

well, yes maybe i was wrong in saying the word tanky, however whining about the choice of words is just simple minded. Like i explained the abilities the thief has to reduce the incoming amount of damage by evading/porting/stealthing completely takes away the fact that they have poor HP. Apart from that low HP pull it’s all about traiting, every1 who ever played a P/D thief knows that they have immense surviveability because of their traitline. It your own fault if you die if you want to be that guy who roles full zerker. Ever seen/played a zerker ele be4? that’s alot worse then thief (less armor, no stealth and less moveability) and therefore there aren’t alot of persons playing it.

when you complain about your surviveability just roll more defensive LTP by using your moveability+stealth+stuns and slowly work towards zerker again

Yeah sure, lets compare thief survivability cos you played a P/D thief…. that build has insane survability mainly due to dire gear that alone shows your lack of understanding how the class works.

Underworld Vabbi 1.5yr

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: the krytan assassin.9235

the krytan assassin.9235

it’s not about saying all thieves should roll P/D build, i’m just mentioning one of the examples how you can actually manage to pull off some surviveability. that beïng said other thieves still got a decent amount of stealths and shadowsteps going on, just don’t expect anet to give you the highest burst dps, stealth and the highest mobility and still making you tanky as kitten. It’s nothing but logical that the moment you’re only building up your gear to kill your enemies as fast as possible you won’t be able to take alot of hits yourself either.

Oh and btw by saying that P/D isn’t a part of thief at all you seem to disunderstand the class aswell. However it’s not a very beloved part of the thief, you can’t just sweep it out of your mind and don’t care about it at all. When you’re suggesting anet to implement changes to give the thieves more surviveability you’re also implementing the fact that P/D will get an extra surviveability buff aswell.

DDD|elementalist| Piken commander|RaW|

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Cam Ron.4170

Cam Ron.4170

thieves have all of the tools succeed in wvw, they just require more effort than most other classes and builds. For example, a guardian will mitigate damage with passive boon procs and such. Thieves wont have the same boon access, but they have more endurance, allowing you to dodge more. This requires more awareness and timing than just letting protection proc. I find it more rewarding

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: jcavlopes.1736

jcavlopes.1736

Wow just lol….
might aswell give the tiefs a skill which makes him invulnerable for 10 minutes and give him wings in wvw so he can just fly in every tower.

Tbh i don’t know any class more tanky then the thief, you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited). You’re complaining about the fact that they lack surviveability, but the primary reason why they lack that surviveability is because you’re most likely going full beserker, what else do you expect then?

Also a permanent stealth button will cause nothing but trouble, since it will result in massive dungeonskipping and sneaking into enemy wvw keeps.

Probably my skill as a thief is very low as your skill at reading and giving an argument that isn’t just plain bad rethoric is. But let’s not focus on me, because as I said, I am a noob. However, having not mastered the thief yet, doesn’t stop me from seeing bad designs.

Instead of intelligently discuss the points I tried to make, you go on kittenbag mode and completely misrepresent what I was trying to say and suggest that thieves should have a ridiculous 10 min invulnerability. I never implied that in any way and you just made an kitten out of yourself.

You only got one thing right: I do have power builds on my mind more than anything, what you would called zerker. I do think that thieves need SOME survivability on that gameplay choice because it is inviable the way it is. They got none. I get quite perplexed with a game that says they will put an end to the holy trinity and you be able to play whatever way you want but later on, the game forces you to not play all the builds. And it can’t be denied that’s what it does. I can’t possibly imagine why anyone in their right mind would chose to play d/d power build at pvp. They would be a sitting duck waiting just to be slaughtered.

This game is full of inconsistencies (or just plain contradictions) of that kind, and that needs to be addressed ASAP. Either change the game slogan or start doing things to actually implement what it is said to be. On a side note on this point but totally unrelated topic: think on how thieves don’t count to protect a point while stealthed at pvp and then think how engineer’s turrets do, even if he isn’t even there. That’s just completely absurd. Again, bad design.

Now let me analyze what you implied. You’re saying that just because someone in a power build (and i’m not talking only about thieves now) chose to trait for the maximum dps output they shouldn’t be granted no way to protect themselves? Are you insane? I’m not asking for some dumb god mode invulnerability as you suggest, but something they can do to not lose half their HP in one blow before they can even land their damage. Every decently balanced mmo i’ve played wouldn’t allow that.

Just as about 99% of your reply, your remark on my “stealth button” was just blurted out without even thinking about it. Massive dungeonskipping? First of all, that button would only steath the thief himself, it’s not an AoE steath. The only way you could remotely do that was if the whole party was made of thieves and that’s mostly improbable, and if this happens, so what? About sneaking, that’s whats thieves should be able to do, so again you are just being silly or just plain ignorant.

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: jcavlopes.1736

jcavlopes.1736

I’m going to suggest some changes to the thief’s steal ability now. It really bothers me that i can’t see steal cooldown when you got a stealed item. It also bothers me that i can’t just dump the ability if i want to. Why don’t the developers go and implement this: one separate ability to use the item (lets say, F2) while, steal would able you to see the cooldown and one other to dump it in case you don’t want to use it(F3)?

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: nickxnickx.5401

nickxnickx.5401

Basically all thief builds rely on falshoods…

Stealth mitigates damage…it can…but armor does always…I can make you vulnerable by 1% as a thief…oh boy…

You are the high damage class. But I see warriors do equal damage to multiple targets….Rangers do single target damage from range and a single button press with no tell.

You have great mobility except other classes run and I can’t catch them….

You get blinds…woopie…every AOE still hits….armor still mitigates.

Here are the truths about thieves:

They get a low health pool.
They have no damage mitigation.
They have poor healing ability.
Their movement is no better than any other classes.
They can run away via stealth in 1 on 1’s but AOE’s stuns knockbacks fields etc stop that.
If you have lag and are a backstab thief just log off.
You have really crappy snare, dot removal ability….

Sure you can heal or remove conditions if you want to do no damage at all….from the damage class….

Massive lack of CC skills. At least we got a stealthed bow skill…woopie we have 1 now! Basilisk venom.,.,..ya its a joke.

The class really needs a overhaul…
Some useful traps…
Maybe some perma stealth or hide in place skills…
No more hide in your face skills but for blinding powder…So..1 every once in a while.
Removal of stealth needed for backstabs etc.
Stuns
trips
debility
snares
knock downs

Make it the CC and debuff class.
Sigh ….

on spot with whats wrong

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594


You have great mobility except other classes run and I can’t catch them….

Only thing that I kind of didn’t like.

Treating “mobility” for traveling across greater distances I believe we’re marginally better (somewhere around a Warrior) than most classes. You can chain a few HS, then dodge roll for speed, run the speed buff, dodge roll again, run, dodge, HS a few times, maybe throw in a shadow step.

The other way to treat “mobility” is mobility in combat, say either 1v1 or some small scale. Again, probably a bit better than most, and similar to mesmer (using clones, to trick around).

Still the mobility in combat will most likely be dedicated to avoiding damage all together, stalling, “resetting”, and general confusion (whether it be for defensive or offensive purposes).

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Faeyd.5094

Faeyd.5094

Wow just lol….
might aswell give the tiefs a skill which makes him invulnerable for 10 minutes and give him wings in wvw so he can just fly in every tower.

Tbh i don’t know any class more tanky then the thief, you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited). You’re complaining about the fact that they lack surviveability, but the primary reason why they lack that surviveability is because you’re most likely going full beserker, what else do you expect then?

Also a permanent stealth button will cause nothing but trouble, since it will result in massive dungeonskipping and sneaking into enemy wvw keeps.

What stuns?

For me to survive no matter what armor I wear I have to twitch like hell on evades and ports. Stealth is too unreliable now.

Tiger

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: LouDrew.1340

LouDrew.1340

Wow just lol….
you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited).

What stun are you talking about exactly?

Our TERRIBLE 1 second elite on a 45 second cooldown?

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

Wow just lol….
you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited).

What stun are you talking about exactly?

Our TERRIBLE 1 second elite on a 45 second cooldown?

Pfft, shows what you know. It’s 1.5 seconds. Makes a huge difference you know!

“Be like water” – Bruce Lee

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: LouDrew.1340

LouDrew.1340

Wow just lol….
you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited).

What stun are you talking about exactly?

Our TERRIBLE 1 second elite on a 45 second cooldown?

Pfft, shows what you know. It’s 1.5 seconds. Makes a huge difference you know!

Yeah silly me, I must have caught something when I read his post.

The travesty is that the application time is 1 second, for a 1.5 second stun, on a 45 second cd, on an elite skill.

If the application time was instant, then we could actually use it to interrupt, and disable an opponent at key times. As it is now you apply it and hope for the best because it takes a full second to put on your weapon. Better hope it doesn’t just get blocked or evaded and then you hit the pet instead.

The only thing worse than that is that our other elites are just as bad. Thieves guild is useful, but only for going mongo.

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: yolo swaggins.2570

yolo swaggins.2570

I think the krytan assassin was talking about headshot spam, which is only one 1/4s daze.

Liaison for [Teef]
“Please stop complaining about stuff you don’t even know about.” ~Nocta

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Lonewolf Kai.3682

Lonewolf Kai.3682

Wow just lol….
you’ve got loads of shadowsteps, stuns, stealth and regen(if traited).

What stun are you talking about exactly?

Our TERRIBLE 1 second elite on a 45 second cooldown?

Pfft, shows what you know. It’s 1.5 seconds. Makes a huge difference you know!

Yeah silly me, I must have caught something when I read his post.

The travesty is that the application time is 1 second, for a 1.5 second stun, on a 45 second cd, on an elite skill.

If the application time was instant, then we could actually use it to interrupt, and disable an opponent at key times. As it is now you apply it and hope for the best because it takes a full second to put on your weapon. Better hope it doesn’t just get blocked or evaded and then you hit the pet instead.

The only thing worse than that is that our other elites are just as bad. Thieves guild is useful, but only for going mongo.

Yeah I agree. I never understood when they nerfed the skill that they at least didn’t make it instant cast. Would make more sense to me.

“Be like water” – Bruce Lee

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Narkodx.1472

Narkodx.1472

I’m a noob at the game as well as to the thief class

Thief is not for you my friend – try Warr or Guard

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Skeletor.9360

Skeletor.9360

I’m a noob at the game as well as to the thief class

Thief is not for you my friend – try Warr or Guard

Best response of the thread…I actually laughed.

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: Zero Day.2594

Zero Day.2594

I’m a noob at the game as well as to the thief class

Thief is not for you my friend – try Warr or Guard

Best response of the thread…I actually laughed.

So true too.

Thief Nerf/Change Wish List. Advice List
Join the TEEFs!

Some thoughts on the thief

in Thief

Posted by: jcavlopes.1736

jcavlopes.1736

I’m a noob at the game as well as to the thief class

Thief is not for you my friend – try Warr or Guard

Best response of the thread…I actually laughed.

So true too.

I really wished people would try and discuss the matters that I raised. But maybe the nerf bat has left you guys with cynicism as the only resort to be used when talking about thief changes. I don’t blame you, Anet is the one to blame.