Guild Wars 2

Something’s changed with one of the Haloween updates. As a Pistol/Dagger condition Thief I used to be able to

Vital Shot > Vital Shot > Cloak and Dagger > Unload > Repeat

But now I can’t do that, I need a third Vital Shot in there before I can CnD again, aka:

Vital Shot > Vital Shot > Vital Shot > Cloak and Dagger > Unload > Repeat

Either the Revealed debuff is longer or they increased the speed of Vital Shot…

I can confirm that…
“Something is rotten in the state of Danmark”.
Maybe some “stealth” Stealth nerf.
Edit:Yesterday i was thinking that i am sort of lagging because of all that Halloween stuff.
But i experience exactly the same as the OP.To me it feels like “revealed” debuff was increased with 0.5 sec.

I can’t confirm this and to me it doesn’t feel that way but if there was a nerf to the thief profession not stated it the patch notes it wouldn’t surprise me.

I’m going to chime in and say I’ve noticed a longer “feeling” revealed debuff than before… I don’t know what to think of it honestly besides I’m glad I’m not the only one who thought so. I doubt we’ll get a confirmation about it though.

I have noticed this as well. It seems the revealed debuff lasts slightly longer. Hard to confirm though since it cannot be tested but it does feel that way in my rotations.

I thought it was just me, but maybe not. It’s actually okay by me, but I wish it was easier to tell when “revealed” is still on you.

Foosnark.1784:

I thought it was just me, but maybe not. It’s actually okay by me, but I wish it was easier to tell when “revealed” is still on you.

Would be great if the entire frame of our game had a pulsing white edge or something when relieved is on us. Just something besides looking at the boon icon. Still just “feel” will always be the best way, even if they gave us a .5 second nerf we will get used to it.

Stiv.1820:

Foosnark.1784:

I thought it was just me, but maybe not. It’s actually okay by me, but I wish it was easier to tell when “revealed” is still on you.

Would be great if the entire frame of our game had a pulsing white edge or something when relieved is on us. Just something besides looking at the boon icon. Still just “feel” will always be the best way, even if they gave us a .5 second nerf we will get used to it.

And then what happens when they make another .5 second nerf? And another? I really hope they didn’t stealth nerf it. Its bad enough that if it was done, its worst if they did it secretly.

Can anyone with a macro timing mouse check to see if this is true? Until then, I think further comments on anyone’s part are just conjecture.

also going to speculate, based on limited anecdotal experience, that the Revealed condition was tweaked and feels like it lasts fractionally longer than it did previously.

not sure if this is true of course.

I also thought that things seemed off after the Halloween update, I had to hold back my instincts on cloak and dagger timing because the revealed wasn’t dropping when I expected it to.

I’m at work so I can’t do this right now, but a simple way to check is to use fraps and review the video to get accurate timing on the debuff icon.

Like I said, before the patch I could use 2 vital shots and then immediately use cloak and dagger to stealth RELIABLY every time, this is experience from 30+ hours as P/D Thief, now I can’t do it at all, I NEED a third vital shot in there before I can stealth with CnD, and while it’s enough, looking at the revealed debuff it’s only BARELY enough.

There was definitely a stealth stealth nerf

I think they increased the Reveal debuff with 10% from 3 sec to to 3.3 sec.
I made some simple test ,i will link the other topic where i posted it:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Request-for-Developer-Clarification/first#post525124

Here is the video alone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtqzkuldqz0

I just frapsed and viewed the resulting video. I see no change. My revealed debuff comes on at 2.91 seconds, and goes away at 5.91 seconds in my video.

Yep, I came here to say the same, now you need 3 vital shots befor stealthing again, making it a 3rd set nerfed now (this one just a bit, but the 0,3 seconds mean 1 more second before we can use Sneak Attack again, which is big when trying to stack blees).

i haven’t see any changes:my rotation with backstab it’s always the same,full sequence of autoattack—->cloack—->backstab,maybe they buff vital shot speed (i hope that xD)

@Adein,i don’t know about the visual graphic,but i do a macro,which presses 5(C&D for stealth),then 1 after 3000 ms(it executes sneak attack and reveals),and at the end,after exactly 3300ms again 5 for Cloak&Dagger.Well it fails every time.With 3400 ms delay it doesn’t.That’s why i put the reveal to 3,3 sec.

If it’s really a longer revealed debuff then Anet seriously has to start putting these things in the patch notes… stealth nerfs are really shady

I can confirm, I used to C&D, sneak attack, auto fire x2, C&D repeat infinity. I did this all the way leveling up from like 40 or 50, and primarily play p/d now at 80. It is a rhythm that is second nature to me by this point, so I noticed it immediately after logging in after the Halloween patch.

To practice to new pacing, and get the old one out of my system, I went into wvwvw… followed an enemy zerg to a supply camp. Then proceeded to chain C&D forever and jump went from target to target for about 15-20 minutes… preventing them from capping it.

They eventually caught me, which is surprisingly easy to do if you stop and think about it. But I did get the new timing down to a t.

They didnt nerf revealed. They buffed vital shot to shoot faster o.O

Yes! I thought I was going mad last night. I started first noticing it in WVW but it was zergy at the time, so I just figured it was lag. Then, I proceeded to hit up orr for some completions and started noticing that my 2nd cnd wasn’t stealthing me. This, coupled with the Assassin’s signet putting me in combat on activation and wasting my 15% dmg on auto attack has soured my taste for this patch. (Unless they actually buffed vital shot, then, yay!)

This nerf maybe isn’t a big deal.But Stealth nerfing IS a big deal.It’s a dangerous path.
I wish developers stand up,like the open men they claim to be and clearly say:"Yes we did this,because we think this and that…

Ravnodaus.5130:

I can confirm, I used to C&D, sneak attack, auto fire x2, C&D repeat infinity. I did this all the way leveling up from like 40 or 50, and primarily play p/d now at 80. It is a rhythm that is second nature to me by this point, so I noticed it immediately after logging in after the Halloween patch.

To practice to new pacing, and get the old one out of my system, I went into wvwvw… followed an enemy zerg to a supply camp. Then proceeded to chain C&D forever and jump went from target to target for about 15-20 minutes… preventing them from capping it.

They eventually caught me, which is surprisingly easy to do if you stop and think about it. But I did get the new timing down to a t.

Haha, was the camp a Tarnished Coast one? I remember that happening to us last night, funny as hell.

In my testing I was S/D spec, since I was just checking the revealed duration. However, I’ll be swapping back to P/D tonight anyway to troll people in WvW, so I’ll check with that weaponset. I’ll try frapsing the entire sequence from C&D->Sneak->Auto x ?->C&D to see if there’s something else that’s changed (e.g., maybe there’s now a delay between sneak attack and the revealed debuff applying).

Hi Karl,

The only problem with your “fix” (I don’t have a problem with fixing the issue with backstab that you were talking about) is with P/D, the stealth ability hits multiple times, and the ‘Revealed’ buff/debuff gets reset with every hit. So we end up waiting longer then the backstab builds do when trying to restealth.

Edit: Maybe if you applied ‘Revealed’ with the first hit that lands from Sneak Attack.

Wilow, Arenanet doesn’t test the stuff they implement after a patch, we have to test it for them. Just look at the necromancer forums after each patch.

I for one am fine with the stealth change, yes sad it causes a bug with P/D setup reapplying the revealed buff thing but still I still am happy with it.

Just apply a check if the revealed buff is already in place, if so, dont rebuff it. If it isnt in place, apply it.

There is no way how you can refresh your revealed debuff anyway since that would mean you can stealth while having the revealed debuff which doesnt make sense.

Wilow.3061:

Hi Karl,

The only problem with your “fix” (I don’t have a problem with fixing the issue with backstab that you were talking about) is with P/D, the stealth ability hits multiple times, and the ‘Revealed’ buff/debuff gets reset with every hit. So we end up waiting longer then the backstab builds do when trying to restealth.

Edit: Maybe if you applied ‘Revealed’ with the first hit that lands from Sneak Attack.

Ah that explains why P/D thieves noticed this and D/D didn’t… I hope they sort this bug out soon!

So this nerf and the stealth stacking nerf both “must not have made it into the patch notes”? That seems very odd that two important changes for the same class based on the same mechanic were somehow both forgotten…

Stealth nerfs for stealth… ironically isnt it? :P

Anyway, the revealed thing for P/D is hopefully more a bug and will get fixed.

“Now, whenever a stealth opener connects with their target, they will receive the revealed buff.”

Fair enough,but Sneak Attack is one Stealth opener,not 5 openers.You get my point.We have too many broken weapon sets and instead of fixing them,you brake more(hopefully unintended).

Karl, you’ve taken thief a bit too literally it seems

The fix is welcome just remember to fix sneak shot please.

I imagine the following conversation:
Community:Some people think,that P/D and P/P are the red haired children of the Thief Family.
ANet:Not at all.We love all our children,even the adopted ones.
Community:OK,then.Let us see…Compared to P/D, the big brothers D/D,S/P and S/D have at least as good(if not better) stealth 1 slot skills,better by far 1 skill chains,and one million times better 2 slot skills.P/D doesn’t have any gap closer and this makes the Sneak Attack-C&D combo pain in the a**.Skill 3 is crap.Skill 2 is the joke of the year.
Do you intend to do anything about the setup?
ANet:We already did.We fixed Backstab,so some players will not be able to restealth after executing it.
Community:But this only “fixed” a bug to BS,which nobody but you ever saw and only made P/D worse…
ANet: Well… that’s why we forgot to include it in patch notes…But thanks for noticing.

We can’t time the Stealth buff to backstab without being revealed, and this is a great fix. It was really imbalance to be able to perma stealth+backstab.

Pryda.8257:

We can’t time the Stealth buff to backstab without being revealed, and this is a great fix. It was really imbalance to be able to perma stealth+backstab.

What fix?Do you even know what are you talking about?Show me a video of that bug .
I have lvl-ed my thief with BS build and i have never heard or seen a bug,that allows you to execute stealth skill and not get revealed.You say"it was really imbalance",like you experienced it every day.Prove me wrong,show a video.As i check your posts,you are kinda WvW freak.Again i ask you,do you know what you are talking about.Do you mistake culling with perma-stealt?

Human beings have a hard time with repeatedly hitting near-exact timings. Macro/Programmable keyboards do not.

I would argue that in a game focused around the skill of the player, using macros makes you a tool…but Anet doesn’t say macro keyboards are illegal or violate the EULA.

Long story short, if you don’t use macros, you probably didn’t pull this off too often.

As it happens i have such keyboard.But i will not be able to test it ,cuz it’s “fixed”,won’t i?
So you are basically tell me,that someone will ignore every opportunity to press BS himself when he is sertain it will land,but instead has macroed his keyboard to hit 1 exactly 3.9 sec after C&D no matter positioning,CC,opponent dodging e.t.c and by this he will reliably achieve perma-stealth? DUDE,seriously???

Redscope.6215:

Human beings have a hard time with repeatedly hitting near-exact timings. Macro/Programmable keyboards do not.

I would argue that in a game focused around the skill of the player, using macros makes you a tool…but Anet doesn’t say macro keyboards are illegal or violate the EULA.

Long story short, if you don’t use macros, you probably didn’t pull this off too often.

Anet has said that anything that changes how you interact with the game is illegal and bannable. This includes anything that lets you do more than 1 action per keystroke.

ZLE.8293:

As it happens i have such keyboard.But i will not be able to test it ,cuz it’s “fixed”,won’t i?
So you are basically tell me,that someone will ignore every opportunity to press BS himself when he is sertain it will land,but instead has macroed his keyboard to hit 1 exactly 3.9 sec after C&D no matter positioning,CC,opponent dodging e.t.c and by this he will reliably achieve perma-stealth? DUDE,seriously???

If I’m reading this bug right, you’d macro CnD, not backstab.

I’d rather not be banned for “attempting to explain exploits” on the forums even if they’re fixed now.

Suffice it to say, you’ve not been using your macros to exploit the game. It’s still a handicapper’s keyboard though and people will use it for timing things perfectly instead of relying on their own abilities. Probably because their own abilities aren’t good enough lol.

Silvermink.1456:

Redscope.6215:

Human beings have a hard time with repeatedly hitting near-exact timings. Macro/Programmable keyboards do not.

I would argue that in a game focused around the skill of the player, using macros makes you a tool…but Anet doesn’t say macro keyboards are illegal or violate the EULA.

Long story short, if you don’t use macros, you probably didn’t pull this off too often.

Anet has said that anything that changes how you interact with the game is illegal and bannable. This includes anything that lets you do more than 1 action per keystroke.

Yeah but was it specifically referring to software and 3rd party programs or even using hardware to manipulate gameplay?

I must have read something wrong if I missed it…

They categorize the software/drivers that runs these as 3rd party programs and they are. I have a G15 keyboard and I have to run the macro program if I want to use the G keys as anything but F keys. I rarely have it running, I find little in GW2 that I would even try to macro with it. ANYTHING that allows you to do more than 1 command per keystroke is against the EULA.

I’m sure ArenaNet’s aware, but I wanted to +1 that this is sort of a big deal for pistol/dagger thieves.

That’s almost an extra half-second out of stealth for us, which can be a not-insignificant reduction in survivability.

I haven’t play tested a ton since the Halloween change, but what I’ve noticed is that, before the change, after a sneak attack I could get 2 vital shots in (pistol 1), wait a short moment, and the cast cloak and dagger to stealth. This is consistent with what I think the previous times were:

Sneak attack (~0.3s revealed eaten)> vital shot (1s) > vital shot (1s) > ~.2s wait/evade > Cloak and Dagger (.5s cast)

This worked out well, it was an easy decision to wait that 0.2s and CaD if things weren’t in my favor since stealth >> 1x vital shot.

Now, the ~.3s delay makes this a little weird:

Sneak attack (0s revealed eaten) > vital shot (1s) > vital shot (1s) > ~.5s wait/evade > Cloak and Dagger (.5s cast)

The decision is weird now. Not only is the required wait after the second vital shot now 150% longer, but I’m half way to a 3rd vital shot, which maybe my animal instincts will go for sometimes since I’m just wasting time out of stealth any ways (and the vital shots are good cues). But if I go for that third VS, I’m now out of stealth a full 0.8s longer than I was pre-“nerf.” Ooch.

Either way, .3s or .8s in PvP is a big deal, even .3s is at least twice as many CC’s getting thrown on me, based on what I’ve seen so far it might be much more than that.

Big deal.

Please Arenanet, thank you for making such an awesome game that I love to play (and thanks for replying to this thread), but please, assuming you guys agree this is a regression, prioritize this to get fixed sooner than later.

Well with the latest patch they haven’t managed to fix the vital shot/revealed bug… it looks like this is gonna be one of the thing they just sweep under the rug.

While I very much support removing the potential to exploit mechanics to chain stealth back to back, I am also concerned about the change uniquely affecting pistol/dagger builds.

Pistol/dagger as a weapon set is already a bit of a marginal set as it trades burst and some of the things other players hate about facing thieves for just consistent damage and range flexibility. It can work pretty well in “fair” situations where the player has lots of time and space to methodically burn down opponents, but even in its most advantageous situations it can be difficult to argue it actually being superior to other builds. And then there’s a lot of other situations where it’s clearly less favorable, particularly in many WvW settings. Overall, it was probably pretty much a “balanced” weapon set that is neither OP or UP overall – before this mechanics change.

The set even being able to be that effective largely centers around the player being able to execute their CnD→SA→VS→VS→[repeat] sequence tightly for both maximum damage/pressure and maximum survivability by minimizing time exposed out of stealth. If the sequence is not tight, performance is pretty lackluster because overall dps is low and vulnerability is high.

The new change with Sneak Attack refreshing the stealth debuff essentially forces the player into a loose sequence with literally zero opportunity to play it tight. You either inflate your sequence with low value Vital Shots or possibly even worse just play with extra dead time. Compared to previously optimal play (no exploiting) the new rotations present substantial reductions in both offensive capability and survivability for the weapon set.

I was already feeling pressure to drop the weapon set before the change even though I enjoy it, and now I definitely feel forced to drop it to stay competitive as it is currently.

Hello! There was actually a subtle change that went in, which was intended to be in our patch notes but seems to have been lost in compiling:
Stealth skills now always apply the ‘Revealed’ buff when they hit their target. We were finding that some players were waiting until the revealed buff was almost off, then executing a stealth opener like Backstab. The Revealed buff would be removed naturally from timing out and the Backstab would connect, without applying the revealed buff. This allowed players to execute their stealth opener combos and then immediately return to stealth for another assault without becoming revealed. Now, whenever a stealth opener connects with their target, they will receive the revealed buff.
We’ll be including the patch note in a future update. Thanks much for noticing
-Karl

Wait, what? I can’t speak for pistol builds, but that’s how backstab already worked. revealed debuff shows up when you attack from stealth. If you’re out of stealth, you can’t backstab until you stealth again. So what do you mean people were waiting out revealed before backstabbing? That wasn’t possible. There are not and were not any situations where you would have stealth AND revealed. What am I missing here? Something smells fishy, and it isn’t my dinner.

Thread suddenly went blank after I replied…

What the dev said was definitely the case. Before patch I remarked to several guild mates “Oh man I found a crazy bug…” and went on to describe exactly what he details. If you waited for your stealth timer to read “0 s” on the buff and THEN used your stealth skill you wouldn’t get revealed, since stealth “naturally” dropped.

After patch you can’t do this. Unfortunately there were code bugs both ways (using stealth skills when stealth expired? Re-applying revealed debuff when not in stealth? Logic checks people!).

Ohh okay after stealth wears off. That makes a bit more sense. The dev said people were waiting for revealed to wear off and I was like, “whaaat”

But in this case, it sounds more like a bandaid nerf to the actual issue of stealth attacks being able to go off after stealth ends.