Guild Wars 2

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.

We actually have more ways than any other class to counter our own class.

BP counters Backstab.
Headshot and Tactical Strike counters BP>HS
CnD counters stealth, if you are able to predict the thief
Our high evasion counters CnD and pretty much everything else.
Clusterbomb counters Shadow Refuge
Shadow Refuge counters Shadow Refuge
etc.

The “new” dodge spam build that many thieves started playing with is a
bigger issue when it comes to countering than what stealth builds are.

I burst down another thief in WvW the other day with basilisk venom + backstab before he could react. Thieves OP, pls nerf.

We have the best defense against other Thieves – stealth. Going invisible means no stealth #1 attacks can hit you unless they are very lucky.

I like when I land Cloak and Dagger on stealth Thieves because as a Thief I know he doesn’t magically vanish into pixie dust when he’s invisible.

Ghostwolf.9863:

We actually have more ways than any other class to counter our own class.

BP counters Backstab.
Headshot and Tactical Strike counters BP>HS
CnD counters stealth, if you are able to predict the thief
Our high evasion counters CnD and pretty much everything else.
Clusterbomb counters Shadow Refuge
Shadow Refuge counters Shadow Refuge
etc.

The “new” dodge spam build that many thieves started playing with is a
bigger issue when it comes to countering than what stealth builds are.

if “Counters” = “makes difficult” then yes. but most of those have no way to stop anything . :P

Much the same way a bullet to the head is a counter to a bullet to the head?

But… but… but… Its hard to faceroll when I actually have to use SKILL against them!

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

This is because blindly spamming “quick AoE” has never, ever, been a good stealth counter. The best counter to stealth has always been the ability to anticipate where your opponent is going to be even when you can’t see them, and either avoiding or attacking that spot. Thieves don’t have a problem with stealth since they can simply say “what would I do in this situation?”

People continue to perpetuate the idea that there’s some sort of magical mechanical counter to stealth if you use the right abilities, but all of the mechanical skills are useless if you don’t use player skill to fight stealth.

Tulisin.6945:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

This is because blindly spamming “quick AoE” has never, ever, been a good stealth counter. The best counter to stealth has always been the ability to anticipate where your opponent is going to be even when you can’t see them, and either avoiding or attacking that spot. Thieves don’t have a problem with stealth since they can simply say “what would I do in this situation?”

People continue to perpetuate the idea that there’s some sort of magical mechanical counter to stealth if you use the right abilities, but all of the mechanical skills are useless if you don’t use player skill to fight stealth.

This is very true, and as an extra point I’d like to add that Thieves can do the same thing, so all the Thieves who say “see if you L2P Thieves suck” are talking out of their behind (because someone, somewhere, is going to say this)

As a Thief player who has multiple lv 80s of other classes, I do this a lot:

“What will this Mesmer (for example) do? He has a GS so he must be Phantasm build, so I will dodge immediately after Backstabbing. I won’t use Shadow Refuge unless necessary, and will get ready to dodge the GS #5”

Alternatively “This D/D Elementalist will try to slow me in Stealth so I can’t land the Backstab. I will use D/P #3 to land the Backstab from range. He will also have mist form up so using Basilisk Poison to open from stealth is a bad idea (although I always use Dagger Storm anyway).”

Even though stealth can be countered by skill, a skilled Thief can counter the stealth counters. (That’s why D/P still has no counters).

I’d beg to differ. Countering perma stealth D/P thieves takes patience and anticipatation. To note, perma stealth eats a lot of initiative and requires a lot of micromanagement.

Wait for the thief to run out of initiative, and burst him down while he’s scrambling to retreat and retry the attack. Using a multi hit skill, like hundred blades for example, while the thief uses black powder while he spams dagger 1 on you is enough to cut at least half of his health, even when blinded.

Sunflowers.1729:

We have the best defense against other Thieves – stealth. Going invisible means no stealth #1 attacks can hit you unless they are very lucky.

I’m now imagining two dueling thieves, both running around invisible hammering the #1 key and backstabbing empty air, praying they will hit the other before the other hits them.

Scout Sn.2976:

I’d beg to differ. Countering perma stealth D/P thieves takes patience and anticipatation. To note, perma stealth eats a lot of initiative and requires a lot of micromanagement.

Wait for the thief to run out of initiative, and burst him down while he’s scrambling to retreat and retry the attack. Using a multi hit skill, like hundred blades for example, while the thief uses black powder while he spams dagger 1 on you is enough to cut at least half of his health, even when blinded.

The amount of out-playing that you have to do to beat the D/P Thief is quite ridiculous. A similarly skilled D/P Thief:

1) Won’t run out of initiative, because she takes stealth on utility slots.
2) Will use the same anticipation that the warrior uses, and predict the only thing possible – if the Warrior doesn’t die to the backstab, he’s gonna turn around and kill you (or heal, which doesn’t really threaten the Thief).
3) If, unluckily, I forsee myself running out of both utility stealths and initiative, I will retreat preemptively before the enemy realizes that. By the time they go “oh look she has no more stealth” I’m about 1200 distance away.

Yet again, I’d beg to differ.

1. even with all these extra utility stealths, one can only do so much to waiting for that initiative comes back. already, bear in mind that the thief already takes 8 initiative on his stealth approach, maybe and extra 8 to jump around before strike. this already gives him less options in taking the warrior out without much of a fight.

2. A well experienced warrior can simply shake off the initial Backstab, cc to trap the thief down, burst with a large aoe attack like Combustive arrow and finish off the remainder of the thiefs health with it.

Fact. I’ve seen too many thieves being overly confident that the warrior wouldn’t be much of a challenge after the initial strike, and they go straight for heartseekers, which would be their demise.

3. I give this one to you in that a warrior wouldn’t be able to chase the thief. however, a thief with long ranged shadowstepping capabilities can, and will chase down the retreating thief with relative ease.

1. All of this means you have a hypothetical knoweldge of how to play stealth from playing stealth.

2. Alot of people don’t play stealth.

3. You can learn how to counter everyone else by watching and learning. You can’t watch invisible people.

4. A properly skilled thief that is well built will not die. The reason they do not control sPVP is because of the control point based nature of it makes stealth ill-suited for point control when stealth does not contest.

5. In WW without restrictions a single thief that is good is deadly, annoying, and near impossible to kill. A coordinated group of thieves however is a threat to even zergs, regularly picking off any member who is not within the main blob. A small group of thieves can mercilessly harry and considerably slow down a zerg unless they are willing to sacrifice members on a regular basis. No I do not mean glass cannon thieves unless they are REALLY GOOD.

Scout Sn.2976:

Yet again, I’d beg to differ.

1. even with all these extra utility stealths, one can only do so much to waiting for that initiative comes back. already, bear in mind that the thief already takes 8 initiative on his stealth approach, maybe and extra 8 to jump around before strike. this already gives him less options in taking the warrior out without much of a fight.

2. A well experienced warrior can simply shake off the initial Backstab, cc to trap the thief down, burst with a large aoe attack like Combustive arrow and finish off the remainder of the thiefs health with it.

Fact. I’ve seen too many thieves being overly confident that the warrior wouldn’t be much of a challenge after the initial strike, and they go straight for heartseekers, which would be their demise.

3. I give this one to you in that a warrior wouldn’t be able to chase the thief. however, a thief with long ranged shadowstepping capabilities can, and will chase down the retreating thief with relative ease.

These are definitely valid tactics so maybe I should revise my post not to say ‘D/P has no counters’ but rather ‘much less’.

Compare D/D to D/P – it has all of these weaknesses, plus some. CnD can be avoided (and if it is avoided, it costs 5 initiative, almost the same as BP+HS combo, which effectively always costs 7 initiative), and it has no on-demand blind, or interrupt. Long duration stealth is hard to achieve. All of the ‘burst him down’ tactics are still the same.

For your last point, by the time the Thief has caught up to me, I’ll have enough initiative to enter stealth again, restarting the process, most likely with either HiS or Blinding Powder up. In any case, most other classes can’t do that (Thieves have very high mobility) so I can usually get away.

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.

I hope you are kidding. Do you know what people mean by counter stealthing ? :P

I like when I land Cloak and Dagger on stealth Thieves because as a Thief I know he doesn’t magically vanish into pixie dust when he’s invisible.

No, shhh! People out there still believe in magic, don’t ruin it for them.

Master of Timespace.2548:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.

I hope you are kidding. Do you know what people mean by counter stealthing ? :P

:O Amg I totally get it now! They don’t want balance. They want a “true easy-mode”. It almost proves all of the claims I made against the more recent generation of videogamers.

Sunflowers.1729:

Tulisin.6945:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

This is because blindly spamming “quick AoE” has never, ever, been a good stealth counter. The best counter to stealth has always been the ability to anticipate where your opponent is going to be even when you can’t see them, and either avoiding or attacking that spot. Thieves don’t have a problem with stealth since they can simply say “what would I do in this situation?”

People continue to perpetuate the idea that there’s some sort of magical mechanical counter to stealth if you use the right abilities, but all of the mechanical skills are useless if you don’t use player skill to fight stealth.

This is very true, and as an extra point I’d like to add that Thieves can do the same thing, so all the Thieves who say “see if you L2P Thieves suck” are talking out of their behind (because someone, somewhere, is going to say this)

As a Thief player who has multiple lv 80s of other classes, I do this a lot:

“What will this Mesmer (for example) do? He has a GS so he must be Phantasm build, so I will dodge immediately after Backstabbing. I won’t use Shadow Refuge unless necessary, and will get ready to dodge the GS #5”

Alternatively “This D/D Elementalist will try to slow me in Stealth so I can’t land the Backstab. I will use D/P #3 to land the Backstab from range. He will also have mist form up so using Basilisk Poison to open from stealth is a bad idea (although I always use Dagger Storm anyway).”

Even though stealth can be countered by skill, a skilled Thief can counter the stealth counters. (That’s why D/P still has no counters).

knock downs….push backs…..pulls…..immobilize….. get any of these off whhen a thief uses back powder shot. or eve better yet….use them after the first heartseeker….then what happens is he just use all but 2 or 3 initiative and is knocked down or immobilized for his entire 2 secs of stealth…preventing him from stacking it. …takes practice tho. you ccan also stand near black powder shot and get hit with the 2nd/3rd HS and him losing all his intiative and invis and geting revealed for like 1200 dmg. either one of these are devastating to the build.

Zacchary.6183:

Master of Timespace.2548:

PearlGore.7419:

We have to fight Thieves that Stealth too, we have no real special tools to deal with it infact we have less then say a class with a ton of quick AoE, yet no Thief complains about Stealth.

Just a random thought as I sit here and drink this cup of tears.

I hope you are kidding. Do you know what people mean by counter stealthing ? :P

:O Amg I totally get it now! They don’t want balance. They want a “true easy-mode”. It almost proves all of the claims I made against the more recent generation of videogamers.

stealth countering stealth is about equivalent to a guardian using aegis/block/pusbacks or a mesmer dodging and running in between clones to avoid BS. i have plenty of video of me backstabbing other thieves while they are invis :P