Guild Wars 2

i want stability for thieves!
guardian and warrior have it, why not thieves? we’re melee too

This is perhaps the thief’s biggest weakness. And I hate to say it, but perhaps it should stay that way. For the class to be interesting and distinct from warriors, I’d prefer the Devs build upon our more ‘thiefly’ means of survival (stealth, evades and in-combat mobility).

Oghier.7419:

This is perhaps the thief’s biggest weakness. And I hate to say it, but perhaps it should stay that way. For the class to be interesting and distinct from warriors, I’d prefer the Devs build upon our more ‘thiefly’ means of survival (stealth, evades and in-combat mobility).

I agree to an extent. However, the way they are doing it now is not only unbalanced, but significantly disliked. Instead of triggering stability for a few seconds of crowd control immunity, we get a master tier trait which doesn’t break the disabling effect, doesn’t protect against successive disabling attacks, and can be disorienting, moving us in a random direction 600 range away. Not to mention that random teleport could put us in the middle of an AoE zone (maybe the very AoE zone we were trying to get away from!).

So yes, it’d be nice to see some, as you put it, survival improvements of a ‘thiefly’ nature, but I think if hard to catch was changed to something like 6 seconds of stability, that it would be more widely accepted and maybe even used. I suppose you could ‘thief it up’ a little by adding additional effects such as refill endurance or cool down a random deception skill that you have equipped.

Saikano.7853:

i want stability for thieves!

Use a full set of Lyssa runes, activate Dagger Storm and then evade-cancel the channel animation, so that you can fight normally. That’ll give you 13+ seconds of Stability every 90 seconds, more if you spec Acrobatics or use boon duration food.

That’s the price of stability on Thief.

Saikano.7853:

i want 25% run speed signet or trait for guardians!
thief and warrior have it, why not guardians? they’re melee too

The grass is always greener, mah friend. So sick of having to use Runes of Speed in every single sPvP build…

Guardians can stability, but we get super lame access to mobility and no access to cripple. Only the Warrior can do it all. Come, let us embrace as brothers…in our shared hatred for warriors.

/fist shake

Thief is in deep sheet now, but hopefull new year will bring some senses to balance team. New healing skills are clear failure. No stability for thief becouse they are designed dps assasins. Sadly they are not.

Good change would be skill which gives sth like evade, distortion or inv. Developers think stleath is equivalent of 5 seconds block or 5 seconds invulnerability, which is very silly. Thief as ninja should be able to evade for 3 seconds, not just silly roll back for 0.5 second becouse thief is dead after 0.5 while 3 second evade would help a ton

Ludus Rex.1562:

The grass is always greener, mah friend. So sick of having to use Runes of Speed in every single sPvP build…

Yeah, it must be a huge kitten to have a runeset that addresses two of your biggest class weaknesses in one go. I mean, they added movespeed and vitality, couldn’t they have given you some soft CC on-hit, too? And a pony?

We have plenty of sources of cripple.. Shortbow 3 evade+criple, Sword 3rd attack in auto attack chain cripples, Dagger 4 cripples up to 3 targets, caltrops on dodge, caltrops utility.

Speed on the other hand… no one can logically argue that warrior should have perm swiftness in and out of combat as a class wearing heavy armour, while an acrobatic medium armour supposedly mobile assassin cannot.

Vitality? Pfft. If I want that I’ll get it via armour/weapons, not runes.

Interceptor.2653:

Saikano.7853:

i want stability for thieves!

Use a full set of Lyssa runes, activate Dagger Storm and then evade-cancel the channel animation, so that you can fight normally. That’ll give you 13+ seconds of Stability every 90 seconds, more if you spec Acrobatics or use boon duration food.

That’s the price of stability on Thief.

Sounds highly efficient, even better than Guard’s AoE 10s Hallowed Ground which is a regular utility on a CD that’s 10s shorter and gives a Fire Field, does damage, and increases boon duration. /sarcasm

I don’t think thief really needs stability, but it does put us at a disadvantage in a decent number of situations.

I play thiefs far less, than I m fighting them, however, I think an issue could be, that thiefes usally have such a high amount of evades or stealth, that giving them also stability (in a higher amount than lyssa runes + basilis venom do) might cause imense problems fighting them.

Landing a stun/daze on a thief gives you some kind of control and a chance of putting some damage onto this constantly disappearing or evading thing jumping around you.

Id rather see them re-add immune to fear on dagger storm stability. being chain feared out of an elite is annoying. other then that we don’t need more stability, we have plenty of shadow steps.

Oghier.7419:

This is perhaps the thief’s biggest weakness. And I hate to say it, but perhaps it should stay that way. For the class to be interesting and distinct from warriors, I’d prefer the Devs build upon our more ‘thiefly’ means of survival (stealth, evades and in-combat mobility).

yet they do the opposite

Impact.2780:

We have plenty of sources of cripple.. […] Vitality? Pfft. If I want that I’ll get it via armour/weapons, not runes.

Who are you talking to? I was responding to someone who was talking about their Guardian. A class that has no real access to soft CC.

Arganthium.5638:

Sounds highly efficient […]

I didn’t make a judgment call, I just listed a way to do it. It’s obviously not ideal from an efficiency standpoint, but there are literally (an aside, this is the proper use of that word: take notes) no other options if you want consistent access to Stability on Thief, thus the price you pay.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

Sounds highly efficient […]

I didn’t make a judgment call, I just listed a way to do it. It’s obviously not ideal from an efficiency standpoint, but there are literally (an aside, this is the proper use of that word: take notes) no other options if you want consistent access to Stability on Thief, thus the price you pay.

That’s like saying “well, if you want a house anywhere in the world, the cheapest you’re going to get it for is $10 million”. Might as well not even bother.

It’s honestly not even usable. It’s not that you might be able to use it to get stability- it’s just too demanding. There comes a point when something becomes so inefficient that it might as well not exist, and this is one of those situations.

Arganthium.5638:

That’s like saying […]

No, it’s nothing at all like that bad analogy you just made.

It’s honestly not even usable.

Nonsense. Lyssa by itself is viable on Thief, and is usable with any elite, not just DS. This exists as an option if you’d like to have 13s+ of Stability in a fight: slot DS and burn it early. Otherwise, don’t. Very simple. Almost everyone understands how decision trees work, and if you don’t, I suggest Googling it.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

That’s like saying […]

No, it’s nothing at all like that bad analogy you just made.

It’s honestly not even usable.

Nonsense. Lyssa by itself is viable on Thief, and is usable with any elite, not just DS. This exists as an option if you’d like to have 13s+ of Stability in a fight: slot DS and burn it early. Otherwise, don’t. Very simple. Almost everyone understands how decision trees work, and if you don’t, I suggest Googling it.

You just said that it’s “not ideal from an efficiency standpoint”, and now you’re telling me that it’s actually usable. You’re basically building entirely around just being able to get stability, which is no way to play, to say the least. Perhaps you WvW’ers don’t realize this, but runes are used for much more than giving you a bit more stability just for the heck of it. The decision is almost entirely lopsided; either I can possibly sacrifice the value of my runes and my elite for a relatively small amount of stability given that it only applies to one person, or I can just slot Shadowstep and one or two other stunbreakers/stomp ensurers that work with my build anyways and hope that that’s sufficient. Just because something exists as an option does not in any way make it viable, as you seem to be arguing. Not to mention- Lyssa’s only any good with Basi Venom anyways.

This would be immensely op’d. We have stealth on demand to avoid damage and cc’s. this isnt necessary. All classes must make tradeoffs. we are no different.

bump!
so devs can see this

I agree that we probably shouldn’t have access to a lot of Stability like some other classes.

But the way the game has evolved some aspects are down-right unplayable without Stability. The amount of AoE stuns and CC that are thrown around liberally are seriously frustrating.

I’d like Thieves to have something like Hard to Catch – Gain 3 seconds of Stability after being hit by a control-effect.

At least that way we can avoid chain-CC without being able to exploit it for safely hiding in Shadow Refuge or similar.

Interceptor.2653:

Impact.2780:

We have plenty of sources of cripple.. […] Vitality? Pfft. If I want that I’ll get it via armour/weapons, not runes.

Who are you talking to? I was responding to someone who was talking about their Guardian. A class that has no real access to soft CC.

I was replying to Ludus Rex, but having come back and re-read, it’s clear that I misinterpreted! I read the “we” as thieves.

i dont think we need stability….however i think we need other things. we lose things like IR….and gain 4 sec revealed….and so many other nerfs so i think we need to revert a few things and add thief into the mid HP range rather than being in the 10.8k base HP. i think that would make a major difference in our survivability. we could afford to stop without losing 25% of our HP to attacks from ONE downed player. yes full zerk goes quick. and its bad bc if u dont full zerk or 90% zerk 10% valk or something of that sort you ahve to go full condi/defense. most other classes can PVT or soldiers but not thief…we just dont have the dmg output to keep up with our lack of defense.

Just give us instant 15 seconds stealth on shadow refuge. I hate when enemy push me out from my refuge

Arganthium.5638:

You just said that it’s “not ideal from an efficiency standpoint”, and now you’re telling me that it’s actually usable. You’re basically building entirely around just being able to get stability, which is no way to play, to say the least.

Oh please. The Stability is complete gravy. Lyssa grants a random boon on heal, and removes all conditions + gives all boons for 5+ seconds on elite use. The secondary stats are Precision and 10% condition duration. This runeset would be worth using even if Stability wasn’t included. Basilisk Venom ensures that.

The decision is almost entirely lopsided; either I can possibly sacrifice the value of my runes and my elite for a relatively small amount of stability given that it only applies to one person, or I can just slot Shadowstep and one or two other stunbreakers/stomp ensurers that work with my build anyways and hope that that’s sufficient.

Yeah sure, just Stability. And condition removal. And Aegis, and Regen, and Protection, and Retaliation, and Vigor, and Fury, and Swiftness, and even a stack of Might because Why Not™.

Like I’ve said to you before, this is not Excel Wars. You can run Lyssa + normal things 99% of the time, and then quickly slot in DS and cancel it with a dodge roll for those times when you’re battling a Hammer Warrior and want to smack them around with impunity for 15 seconds. This is the reality of the game, as opposed to the unreality of what you think the game ought to be.

Just because something exists as an option does not in any way make it viable, as you seem to be arguing.

It takes all of a fraction of a second to turn a totally normal build into a specific-case countermeasure. Doesn’t even require a trait toggle. These are the little things that give experienced players an edge in a fight.

And in this case, an answer to the OP’s problem. If he’s really so concerned about Stability access, he can get some on Thief. His choice whether the price is worth paying, naturally, but in the generic case it’s totally defensible as a sometimes-counter, and nowhere have I been dishonest about the costs.

Interceptor.2653:

Arganthium.5638:

You just said that it’s “not ideal from an efficiency standpoint”, and now you’re telling me that it’s actually usable. You’re basically building entirely around just being able to get stability, which is no way to play, to say the least.

Oh please. The Stability is complete gravy. Lyssa grants a random boon on heal, and removes all conditions + gives all boons for 5+ seconds on elite use. The secondary stats are Precision and 10% condition duration. This runeset would be worth using even if Stability wasn’t included. Basilisk Venom ensures that.

The decision is almost entirely lopsided; either I can possibly sacrifice the value of my runes and my elite for a relatively small amount of stability given that it only applies to one person, or I can just slot Shadowstep and one or two other stunbreakers/stomp ensurers that work with my build anyways and hope that that’s sufficient.

Yeah sure, just Stability. And condition removal. And Aegis, and Regen, and Protection, and Retaliation, and Vigor, and Fury, and Swiftness, and even a stack of Might because Why Not™.

Like I’ve said to you before, this is not Excel Wars. You can run Lyssa + normal things 99% of the time, and then quickly slot in DS and cancel it with a dodge roll for those times when you’re battling a Hammer Warrior and want to smack them around with impunity for 15 seconds. This is the reality of the game, as opposed to the unreality of what you think the game ought to be.

Just because something exists as an option does not in any way make it viable, as you seem to be arguing.

It takes all of a fraction of a second to turn a totally normal build into a specific-case countermeasure. Doesn’t even require a trait toggle. These are the little things that give experienced players an edge in a fight.

And in this case, an answer to the OP’s problem. If he’s really so concerned about Stability access, he can get some on Thief. His choice whether the price is worth paying, naturally, but in the generic case it’s totally defensible as a sometimes-counter, and nowhere have I been dishonest about the costs.

lyssa runes are not worth sacrificing a full set of rune stats just for 5 secs on all boons every few mins. or once per 1 v 1 fight. you will get much more use out of the other rune sets that are mroe commonly used. even that 5s most of which is not taken advantage of. u might use aegis and protection…the rest wont add up for anything. if you compare….lets say ogre runes/scholar etc etc or of those quality…. lyssa is giving you atleast half as much productivity. in my personal opinion its giving like 20% max of what you would get from other better runes. lyssa runes are for people that cant add. if u wanna do the math ill do it with you. u prolly get 2-3 hits and might take 2 hits in that 5 secs? prolly 1 hit or none? usually people pop BV in stealth so alot of that time is wasted anyway. then lets add up the dmg or utility of other runes or the summon etc….itll always be more on other runes. wont do the math unless u request it but im sure you will agree.

i dont think we should get stability.. i think putting thieves in the middle tier of HP would be sufficient. right now we have 1 shot at stomping….. shadowstep. in wvw i just down players and move on…. theres no real choice in group/zerg fights. other classes do it with ease. just saying if we had a lil more than 10.8k base hp maybe we could stand there for a few secs and do it….. but right now thieves are not playable in group setting. not when every other class (not gonna put rangers in there) can GROSSLY out produce them…..

go in LA near crafters. go near bank or TP or at world bosses and dungeons and the mystic forge. its about 1/20 . 1 being thieves…19 being any of the other classes. there is a reason for that. they arent a viable class unless you count unproductive roam killing.

fun fact ppl want lyssa to be nerfed and thief stun breakers as well looking at pvp forums… /facepalm

Cynz.9437:

fun fact ppl want lyssa to be nerfed and thief stun breakers as well looking at pvp forums… /facepalm

really? why. lyssa runes really arent that good. it basically saves a thief one hit with aegis and a a lil extra dmg (possibly) with a hit or two. kinda wasted rune set comparatively. stun breaks? we should have more. no stability no high armor no high hp no blocks no invul no protection no aegis. but people complain about stun breaks. they are dips. they dont know it bc they stink at playing so its hard to get them to accept the facts.

nerovergil.5408:

Just give us instant 15 seconds stealth on shadow refuge. I hate when enemy push me out from my refuge

Enemies knocking you out of it is the whole point. If they do, they have a chance to fight you, If they don’t, you have 15s worth of stealth.

So you’d rather have 15s of stealth every 60s(48s) which cannot be countered by any means because of what? I do not see any reasoning behind your argument apart from wanting things to be easymode because you’re annoyed that other people actually provide Counter Play and using one of their skills in hopes to counter yours.

Please watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

Same thing with people wanting Thief to have stability. What is the reasoning behind this? Warrior and Guardians have it too? That’s not much of an argument. So I can’t help but wonder if the only reasoning is so Thief players can just have another get-out-of-jail-free card to add to their already impressive collection.

So let me say something that I always got thrown in my face when visiting the Thief forums:

L2P

Play with what you have instead of wanting god-mode handed to you on a silver platter.

Sorry op no way thief survives via dodges, teleports, stealth, evades, and blinds. To add stab to thief would then make our class easy mode.

Travlane.5948:

lyssa runes are not worth sacrificing a full set of rune stats just for 5 secs on all boons every few mins.

It’s a good thing that they also give 165 Precision, 10% condi duration, a random boon every time you use a healing skill (works great with Withdraw), and remove every single condition whenever you use your elite. All of the boons except maybe Swiftness and Might are useful. Vigor, Stability, Protection, Aegis, Regen, Fury, Retaliation… all good.

You build power and crit damage via traits and gear when you use Lyssa. It’s not rocket science.

Interceptor.2653:

Travlane.5948:

lyssa runes are not worth sacrificing a full set of rune stats just for 5 secs on all boons every few mins.

It’s a good thing that they also give 165 Precision, 10% condi duration, a random boon every time you use a healing skill (works great with Withdraw), and remove every single condition whenever you use your elite. All of the boons except maybe Swiftness and Might are useful. Vigor, Stability, Protection, Aegis, Regen, Fury, Retaliation… all good.

You build power and crit damage via traits and gear when you use Lyssa. It’s not rocket science.

If only 165 precision was any good… It’s worth (at base) 37 power (actually less, I just decided to round down the value of power vs precision for simplicity’s sake), which is a pretty crappy damage buff unless you’re running some kind of burst D/X build with 100% crit damage, in which case stability isn’t going to help you anyways.10% condi duration is nothing, and has horrible coordination with precision.

The 4 buff is good, but not necessarily better than the buffs on other runes, especially since the prec and condi duration mean practically nothing. The 6 buff is extremely unreliable if you’re using an elite on a CD more than 1 min.

Ogre runes build much better with damage stats than Lyssa runes do.

Also, is “X doesn’t happen on an Excel spreadsheet” your only argument against the mathematics of this game? Because that’s pretty sad.

Arganthium.5638:

If only 165 precision was any good… It’s worth (at base) 37 power […]

Nonsense, as usual. Precision isn’t better than power or crit damage, but you still need some in a lot of builds, and it has non-“damage” effects on gameplay (on-crit effects). It’s ~8% crit chance you don’t need from somewhere else.

in which case stability isn’t going to help you anyways.

Please do your best not to conflate “Lyssa runes are useful” with “Lyssa runes are only used for Stability”. Try hard.

+10% condi duration is nothing, and has horrible coordination with precision.

Nonsense. Condition duration of 0% would be “nothing”. Check your calculator. Condition duration also isn’t just for damaging conditions, it also helps with Blind, Cripple, Immob, Vuln, Weakness, Poison (healing debuff), etc. Stuff that’s found (and used) on builds that aren’t bleed/venom/confusion/torment based.

The 4 buff is good

Yes it is. High chance of a useful boon in combat, lasts a while with a little boon duration.

The 6 buff is extremely unreliable if you’re using an elite on a CD more than 1 min.

I think maybe you don’t know what “unreliable” means. The #6 rune effect is always reliable unless you get interrupted during the 1-second aftercast.

Also, is “X doesn’t happen on an Excel spreadsheet” your only argument against the mathematics of this game? Because that’s pretty sad.

No, just my response to people who don’t understand the practical applications of math in real-world situations. If you want some variety, come up with a different way to miss the point.