Vault (staff 5) does far MORE than Backstab (Stealth Dagger 1). Unless the build calculator is really, really far off.
Backstab:
Frontal Damage- 937
Side or Back Damage- 1875
Vault:
Just because I said so Damage- 2,762
Post HoT, how many nerfs do you think Vault will get? I predict 4. First time to Vault (unless they make it cost 7 on release) , second time Staff Master (take away the damage additive), third time to Vault again (damage nerf), and fourth to Vault for final nerf (Cast time increase). Not gonna lie, I’m already sad. I’m still excited for beta weekend, but obviously overtuned numbers are OBVIOUSLY going to get nerfed. So it’s like having a ticket to an amusement park, but knowing you won’t get to use it before the place closes down and your ticket expires.
I’m not sure if I hope the calculator is wrong or not. It’s a bit of warring opinion- enjoy being crazy OP for just one weekend and suck up the nerf incoming sign OR accept them and not have to worry about when I’ll have to be upset.
I would predict a minimum of two Vault nerfs, whether they’re truly needed or not.
A lot of the DD skills/traits actually look APPROPRIATELY strong right now, Vault and Bounding Dodge in particular. I would hate to see a repeat of the earlier days of the game where Thief ate straight nerf after straight nerf. It was part of what caused me to take a two year break from the game in the first place.
Fully decked out in Ascended gear + consumables etc, Vault hits for 4,064 according to that. I tried to find a way to make that number from the tooltip from the PoI (it was 1,957 with Marauder amulet apparently, plus I would guess Power runes like Vampirism) but couldn’t.
Yeah the number definitely seems to high. If I recall, Vault should be doing a bit less than a backstab. In the POI stream, I think Karl said he actually had a Marauder amulet so we can probably take those numbers as a pretty solid representation of the actual damage.
It definitely hits more than a Backstab. Currently in Marauder in HOTM and my Backstab shows 1,897 while Vault was closer to 2,000 on PoI.
The thing that makes that okay is the fact that it has a long-ish cast time and is extremely, extemely obvious to dodge, blind or interrupt. I mean, there’s stabbing someone from invisibility, and then there’s leaping in the air, spinning like a Beyblade, over a second or so. >.> Also the Stealth attack has pretty much zero damage so there needs to be some kitten good damage on the weapon somehow. It’s got S/P and S/D to compete with.
Vault (staff 5) does far MORE than Backstab (Stealth Dagger 1). Unless the build calculator is really, really far off.
Backstab:
Frontal Damage- 937
Side or Back Damage- 1875
Vault:
Just because I said so Damage- 2,762
Post HoT, how many nerfs do you think Vault will get? I predict 4. First time to Vault (unless they make it cost 7 on release) , second time Staff Master (take away the damage additive), third time to Vault again (damage nerf), and fourth to Vault for final nerf (Cast time increase). Not gonna lie, I’m already sad. I’m still excited for beta weekend, but obviously overtuned numbers are OBVIOUSLY going to get nerfed. So it’s like having a ticket to an amusement park, but knowing you won’t get to use it before the place closes down and your ticket expires.
I’m not sure if I hope the calculator is wrong or not. It’s a bit of warring opinion- enjoy being crazy OP for just one weekend and suck up the nerf incoming sign OR accept them and not have to worry about when I’ll have to be upset.
I was going to create a thread regarding staff damage after Daredevil POI but thought I would wait until after Beta weekend but since you already brought it up . Looking at the Staff damage, it is the highest out of any other weapon set we have. I think this is because of the lack of combo fields available to this weapon set to stealth from in order to balance it out. So essential, it is a high risk high reward set, in which its surviver-ability is complemented by the Daredevil trait line which makes it perfect. Thieves have always lacked a set that gives high damage without stealth as a crutch and now we have one.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
Einstein
To those saying backstab is from stealth, vault can be too. No way around it. I can gain the same advantage.
And those saying it’s gotta be wrong- I think so too. If these kinds of numbers go live, I can one shot the same way as my backstab. Except bigger, better, more frequently, with the same advantages, and in a very powerful and deadly aoe. I made a build and the build calculator thread focused for single target nuking, but with this and the numbers I pulled (final calculation in a 3.4 second span was just barely under 70k) I think I’d wreck full teams. It was highly reliant on vault’s damage, so will see? If live, I will get tears. Tears that my salt bank is sorely short of.
How about the staff autoattack chain vs the sword one. The final attack has the same dps, but the first two strikes are almost double the sword’s.
Or staff 3 vs sword/dagger 3. The same initative cost, the same cast time, but around four times as much damage as flanking strike, can be used repeatedly due to not turning into another attack, breaks immobilising effects, and allows you to reposition.
Staff damage just seems severely overtuned in general compared to the other weapon sets, especially since, unlike the sword, it can be traited for even further increased damage.
Did we watch the same stream? The Autoattack chain was lower than dagger and sword iirc. The first two hits critted for 1.5k each, while the final 4-hit chainskill critted for 3.2k (4/4 crits). Numbers from the cluster of golems, which are Heavies. Since i´m at work right now i can’t check back on actual sword and dagger AA chain damage, but i am under the impression that those are higher, with dagger hitting 1.5k on the first double strike and 3.2k each on the second and third strike, while sword is sth like 3.2k, 3.2k and 4.5k. Or am i mixing up numbers vs Lights and Heavies now?
Vault critted for about the same amount a frontstab does. At a cost of 6 initiative and with an overly visible and long flying arc this isnt overtuned, and while you won’t see it coming from stealth, you have to enter stealth first, which on staff isn’t as easy as on x/P or x/D.
Staff #2 indeed seems like a deadly attack and seems to behave much like Warrior’s GS#3. If you manage to catch an enemy right at a wall, you can reliably get all hits of the whirl to connect, e.g in PvE. In pvP this may be less consistent to pull of.
Thieves have already realized the staffs incredible potential, but our jobs isn’t to take care of balance, the Dev’s will take care of that. The best we can do is show PvP’ers on September 4th the terror that is the Staff wielding Daredevil, and watch the PvP forums explode, as the cries of anguish balance our profession for us. In the PvP community we thieves may never be seen as Heroes, but now we can be the perfect Villains. Finally it’s our turn to be God tier however short it is.
@Fenda Vault crit for 7K plus on light armor and 5K on heavy
Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
Einstein
It’s cuz the Build Editor seems to have the wrong coefficients and is making staff skills ridiculously stronger. Not to worry though, BWE should clear things up. And if these skills really are this strong…. then may Dwayna help us because we will be in for some nerfs.
Staff is garbage. Why do people even think it’s any good? Because you can deal 5k damage with one of the most telegraphed skills in the game on the most squishy profession? Try using vault against a mesmer, I dare you. WATCH OUT FOR THE PINK MEN.
Did we watch the same stream? The Autoattack chain was lower than dagger and sword iirc. The first two hits critted for 1.5k each, while the final 4-hit chainskill critted for 3.2k (4/4 crits).
Do you know what equipment they were using? I was basing it on the numbers listed for the skills on the wiki
Vault has a HUGE spin up animation and is highly visible and easy to dodge or interrupt. Sure, you could use it from stealth, but staff (on purpose) doesn’t have internal stealth access for this reason (and also to prevent easily chaining the 2s knockdown sneak attack) and you’d be leaving stealth at -5 init.
Its counterability does a lot to balance its damage, just like warrior’s killshot, hundred blades, and a number of other slow and big hitting attacks with easy to recognize animations.
Well, according to the health points and the amount of critical hits we’ve seen its most likely the marauder amulet. The rune is not so easily to identify, but i´m certain its nothing which adds vitality. I´d wager Karl McLain was using marauder’s with Vampirism Runes. When i´m back home i can dive into the recording again and compare it to ingame numbers. kitten you, brain, why dont you remember the stuff i need to when i need to :P
It hits for more than Backstab, sure, but the windup animation is also one of the biggest tells in the game. I think the damage is appropriate – there isn’t even an evade frame on the leap, which leaves you vulnerable. Any thief running offhand pistol or Distracting Daggers will have the ability to shut you down mid-vault, and a necro can flash Shroud and instantly fear you out of it – that’s just one example among many, many other class options to counter it. With Backstab, the counterplay is much lower. Vault is a higher risk skill mid-combat and the damage should scale accordingly.
Did we watch the same stream? The Autoattack chain was lower than dagger and sword iirc.
I ripped the VOD and timed it. The auto chain takes about 2.05-2.15 seconds (can’t tell exactly when it will cycle but aftercasts seem tiny so I think the sequence might be around 2.2-2.3 per second).
So comparing all 3 melee weapon auto chains, we have (all using Vampirism + Marauder like Karl presumably was):
With Staff Master the damage will exceed Sword, else it’s probably a little bit lower than Dagger’s auto DPS when you’re doing nothing but attacking constantly. However, in a PvP situation, that’s never going to happen.
Did we watch the same stream? The Autoattack chain was lower than dagger and sword iirc.
I ripped the VOD and timed it. The auto chain takes about 2.10-2.15 seconds (can’t tell exactly when it will cycle but aftercasts seem tiny so I think the sequence might be around 2.2-2.3 per second).
So comparing all 3 melee weapon auto chains, we have (all using Vampirism + Marauder like Karl presumably was):
That puts the auto attack damage pretty much right in the middle of Dagger and Sword when you consider the possibility of having 10% more damage on Staff with Staff Master, else it’s probably a little bit lower than Dagger’s auto DPS when you’re doing nothing but attacking constantly. However, in a PvP situation, that’s never going to happen.
Also Dagger applies Poison (and weakness with the traits) and restores Endurance. Sword applies Weakness and Cripple on top of hitting like a truck. And Staff auto also reks you with Retaliation.
Thanks for this in-depth analysis. So i puzzled numbers between heavy and light armor targets and was wrong on them as well, my bad.
Thats not so bad as it looks then. Maybe i was distracted from the multihit on the third chainskill, it makes the complete chain look like lower DPS than it is. Actually if it is on the same level or just lower than Dagger, its fine – with staff comes way more utility than just #1ing enemies down in a smoke field.
I guess we`ll see deep dives regarding testing on the second BWE. I know i will, just to try and contribute my part to make (or keep) the Daredevil what the Thief currently needs and deserves.
Ok, let’s back up on this comparison for a second and look what really happens with these skills:
Backstab usually isn’t just by itself. You tend to get additional damage from a heartseeker on D/P as part of the stealth. On D/D, you also need to consider CnD damage.
Backstab isn’t apples to apples with vault since it’s a stealthed attack that’s hard to avoid and instantly re-castable if blocked or blinded.
Vault on the other hand has a massively obvious attack animation and burns your ini if you get blocked/evaded.
To me this says that you have two situations:
1) Vault and BS combos do roughly equal damage. In this case, BS combos are simply superior since they are easier to land and don’t cost ini to re-cast.
2) Vault does more damage to offset the higher risk of it vs BS combo. In this case, the high damage of this skill becomes so high that it may just be considered a cheesy 1-shot skill.
When I first saw vault crit for 7k i thought maybe it was a bit much, then i realized that it is actually necessary, not only is it necessary but if it is nerfed it would be incredibly foolish.
Backstab is a stealth executioner but there really was never one for people who fight revealed like the S/D SB for example. Now that there is now another weapon that doesnt have stealth on it as well as a new skill category that doesnt give stealth, it is definitely a must for there to be non-stealth executioner.
Sometimes Anet pulls moves that are really uncalled for but considering how much thought they have put into HoT, they seemed to have learned one or two things about how the classes interact with each other and how the players interact with the classes. I think they see how necessary it is to leave Vault as a high damage skill.
. Looking at the Staff damage, it is the highest out of any other weapon set we have. I think this is because of the lack of combo fields available to this weapon set to stealth from in order to balance it out. So essential, it is a high risk high reward set, in which its surviver-ability is complemented by the Daredevil trait line which makes it perfect. Thieves have always lacked a set that gives high damage without stealth as a crutch and now we have one.