Guild Wars 2

So, a little background to set this post up.

In every MMO I’ve ever played, I’ve been a spec kitten. I get bored easily, and I like switching up my specs constantly – trying out new things, seeing what works and what doesn’t, and playing those specs until I get bored and switch to another functional spec. This has worked in WoW, WAR and Rift.

For perspective, this has always been from a PvP perspective- when I ran PvE, I used whatever worked best – its boring (IMO) anyway, and I just ran whatever made things progress the quickest.

Playing a thief in PvP has grown stagnant over the past few months. As far as I can tell, we have 2 effective specs that can work in TPvP.

S/D – it comes in many flavors, but it does only 1 thing – it infuriates people. The mobility granted due to the general lack of stealth (most effective S/D specs have little reason to go into stealth unless a daze can prevent a stomp/res/long cast) really frustrates kittenty players, and makes them do dumb things. The spec is fairly solid overall, even with how UP Dagger OH is (in SPvP), but there are tons of counters the community refuses to acknowledge because putting in any sort of effort is apparently taxing.

D/P – This only comes in 1 flavor – Burst. There are a few ways to get to that burst, but regardless of spec, they always focus on one thing – taking a target down ASAP, and bailing if that plan doesn’t pan out. I’m not knocking the spec (it can certainly work well), but it’s just boring to me.

There may be other specs that work in hotjoin, but who cares? The game is being designed around 5v5 organized teams – any spec that doesn’t work in that format is a waste of time.

Throughout the changes to thief, the class has remained mostly static – Anet would have us believe we’re still the stealthy/bursty class regardless of multiple nerfs to stealth and burst.

When they gave us a non-stealth, non-burst option, the community came up in arms – it’s apparently too difficult to attempt to properly time attacks against a thief who uses his mobility as a survival mechanic rather than stealth.

I just want thief to have some options.

P/D needs a little bit of updating (5->1 shouldn’t still be the best option in most cases).

P/P needs major fixing, and has needed such since the games basic meta has stabilized almost a year ago. Whoever put a direct damage attack in the middle of a set full of condition abilities and utility style weapon skills needs a serious talking to. Also, giving a class that relies on mobility and stealth for survivability NO access to stealth or mobility just seems short-sighted and insulting.

D/D needs some addressing – like P/P, its mind-boggling to see a condition based attack in the middle of a set so obviously dedicated to direct damage. D/P so completely trumps this set in such a majority of TPvP situations – It’s a wonder no one has addressed the design issue yet.

S/P needs some attention – PW has been poorly designed since the game was released. Haste made it seem appealing, but it’s never been a well designed skill. After a damage nerf, a general haste change, and the changes that made S/D playable (effective, even), S/P has been pushed to the sidelines for fairly obvious reasons.

Being a class with the narrowest weaponset choices (Ele and Engi have narrower choices, but class options that make them more versatile), it’s disappointing to see so many weapon set choices pushed to the sidelines due to bad design.

Anet, can thieves get some attention so they’re not pigeonholed into a very narrow role only supported by 2 weaponsets?

devs

No. Thief class can go die. :3

I answered them for you. Now if only they could prove me wrong… >.> <.<

I foresee S/D will get nerfed, what means all weapon sets will be equally bad, so no more dilemma for you which one you should pick. Aways look on the bright side of life!

Also, if you came from WoW, you should know one thing – nerfing rogues/thieves is a long tradition in MMOs, and traditions are what defines us.

I agree with you (having played thief since beta weekends) completely.

But the problem is not only lack of build variety. Except for some cases (redic single burst damage of the past for 18k+ with the press of 3 buttons, either with backstab or pistol whip+haste), the thing that irritates me the most is the fact that, contrary to the average perception of this class (from people who are too lazy to understand it, or, better, play it to just see what it does and how), it’s one of the most punitive when not played well.

We have a really low margin of error during a fight, if we screw ini management, or the timing of a shadowstep, or the use of the condition cleanse with basi venom+lyssa, etc., we’re done, whereas a good bunch of other classes have a much higher available margin of error.

Thief seems pretty fine in 1on1s, but in teams i think it lacks, but it has it’s niche roll in taking out important backline / targets in general, just pressure alone by thieves in the backline is huge support.

The thieves I know and practice with are some of the best in the game , namely Triggerless, etc and I will say he has no issues beating people in duels/1on1 roaming combat. There’s no reason why any other thief shouldn’t either.

The thief skill ceiling is ridiculous and people just whine about the class being underpowered but it’s actually really good albeit lacking in terms of team support in ways.

Ryan.8367:

Thief seems pretty fine in 1on1s, but in teams i think it lacks, but it has it’s niche roll in taking out important backline / targets in general, just pressure alone by thieves in the backline is huge support.

The thieves I know and practice with are some of the best in the game , namely Triggerless, etc and I will say he has no issues beating people in duels/1on1 roaming combat. There’s no reason why any other thief shouldn’t either.

The thief skill ceiling is ridiculous and people just whine about the class being underpowered but it’s actually really good albeit lacking in terms of team support in ways.

The title of the post is “Stagnation”.

The point of the post is how stagnated the class is, with the majority of our already narrow weapon choices being poorly designed.

The weapons that work, work fine – the problem is how few of them work.

@OP
There is a flaw in your post and this is the main issue why some weapon set are horrible: weapon combination.

Do you honestly use P/P just by itself? Or do you use a weapon off-set that complements P/P?

I know that P/D complements SB and by perfecting the weapons switching through practice, it is a powerful condition damage set.

D/D + P/P is also a powerful weapon set combination for hybrids with access to burst after perfecting weapon switching through practice. SoM is OP with these sets. This is like having D/D, P/P, P/D, and D/P within your grasp.

My point is, if we are to address any issue, we need to look at the big picture and not focus on individual weapon set or build. Looking them individually will really make you sad, but that is not all what they can do.

Nevertheless, I still want to see D/D and P/P have their own 5-skill dual wield set, instead of just the dual wield #3 skill.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

@OP
There is a flaw in your post and this is the main issue why some weapon set are horrible: weapon combination.

Do you honestly use P/P just by itself? Or do you use a weapon off-set that complements P/P?

What compliments a bi-polar weapon set where the only 2 skills designed to do damage (AA and Unload) use entirely different stats to deal damage? There’s no secondary weaponset that suddenly makes P/P well designed – it’s still very, very kittentily designed.

I know that P/D complements SB and by perfecting the weapons switching through practice, it is a powerful condition damage set.

Same as above. How does equipping a ShBow suddenly make it so that P/D isn’t at it’s strongest hitting 5->1 as often as possible in most situations? Once every 20s you might hit Shadow Stab to build range, then switch to ShBow I guess? The change to Shadow Stab was a good one, but the set still needs a little attention.

D/D + P/P is also a powerful weapon set combination for hybrids with access to burst after perfecting weapon switching through practice. SoM is OP with these sets. This is like having D/D, P/P, P/D, and D/P within your grasp.

Do you see alot of thieves running hybrids with access to burst that don’t make at least one of those sets worthless? If you’re running a condition focus (With access to burst, somehow), D/P is entirely useless and D/D is mostly useless. If you’re running a direct damage focus (with access to burst, believably), P/D is entirely useless, and P/P is mostly useless. You’re not gaining that much in versatility, and you’ve sacrificed Shadow Shot (a Strong skill) and Shadow Stab (a useful skill, buffed enough to finally break the 5->1 P/D monotony, if only a little). You also only have the opportunity to gain these benefits once every 10 seconds – Don’t get me wrong, if all of our sets were well designed, your point would be solid, unfortunately they are not.

My point is, if we are to address any issue, we need to look at the big picture and not focus on individual weapon set or build. Looking them individually will really make you sad, but that is not all what they can do.

Your big picture mostly crams weapons in to use 1 or 2 of their skills, which is the problem entirely. The weapon set should be well designed enough on its own that you have some reason to use most of the skills in the course of your average fight. Slotting P/P with D/D so you can unload at range, and have occasional use for HS and BP still leaves your basic AA useless, and body shot a waste of init (which may change after the added Immob in patch) which seems silly to me.

Nevertheless, I still want to see D/D and P/P have their own 5-skill dual wield set, instead of just the dual wield #3 skill.

Well, I can’t argue with you here.

evilapprentice.6379:

What compliments a bi-polar weapon set where the only 2 skills designed to do damage (AA and Unload) use entirely different stats to deal damage? There’s no secondary weaponset that suddenly makes P/P well designed – it’s still very, very kittentily designed.

Not saying that there is one, but I’m simply saying that weapon combination should also be taken into account.

Same as above. How does equipping a ShBow suddenly make it so that P/D isn’t at it’s strongest hitting 5->1 as often as possible in most situations? Once every 20s you might hit Shadow Stab to build range, then switch to ShBow I guess? The change to Shadow Stab was a good one, but the set still needs a little attention.

That’s just one example where there’s a synergy in weapon set combination, mainly due to the conditions and I’ve seen a well played P/D + SB before so I used it as an example here.

I agree that it needs attention, but when attention is given, weapon set combination should be taken into considerations.

Do you see alot of thieves running hybrids with access to burst that don’t make at least one of those sets worthless? If you’re running a condition focus (With access to burst, somehow), D/P is entirely useless and D/D is mostly useless. If you’re running a direct damage focus (with access to burst, believably), P/D is entirely useless, and P/P is mostly useless. You’re not gaining that much in versatility, and you’ve sacrificed Shadow Shot (a Strong skill) and Shadow Stab (a useful skill, buffed enough to finally break the 5->1 P/D monotony, if only a little). You also only have the opportunity to gain these benefits once every 10 seconds – Don’t get me wrong, if all of our sets were well designed, your point would be solid, unfortunately they are not.

That’s actually what I’m getting at. What if they designed them well without considering the weapon set combination? Can you imagine how broken D/D + P/P will be?

One issue that is currently standing out is that any changes to D/D will affect D/P, same with P/P affecting P/D. They need to make a stand and make a decision since the only way to avoid these issues is give D/D and P/P their own unique dual-wield sets.

Your big picture mostly crams weapons in to use 1 or 2 of their skills, which is the problem entirely. The weapon set should be well designed enough on its own that you have some reason to use most of the skills in the course of your average fight. Slotting P/P with D/D so you can unload at range, and have occasional use for HS and BP still leaves your basic AA useless, and body shot a waste of init (which may change after the added Immob in patch) which seems silly to me.

My goal is for you to consider them when none are wasted init and they are well designed. If we are to evaluate the weapon sets, we need to take the weapon set combination to be included into the discussion just to eliminate any wiggle room for Anet’s design team.

So in the end, we can say that, “look Anet, P/P is so horrible that whether we use it in PvE, PvP, WvW, in any weapon set combination, or in any build, it’s crap! And here’s the proof…and here’s the solution: D/D and P/P get their own unique 5-skills weapon set. Here’s the reasons:…”

@Sir Vincent

I don’t really see the problem with D/D / P/P – other classes have well built weaponsets they can switch between, why not thieves? Having weapon sets that compliment each other doesn’t make them broken. This goes for every weaponset I can think of. And if you really think about it, ShBow is currently considered a nigh mandatory weapon in TPvP for team fights and mobility – not taking it might boost your ability in 1on1 (In this hypothetical situation where most or all our weapons were well built) and small skirmishes, but you’re sacrificing things for that power

The initiative system changes the formula just a tad, but I have to imagine they had that in mind when they developed the class – if their intention was to have a bunch of dysfunctional or UP weaponsets due to the init system, I’d imagine they would have dropped it instead. There’s still a 10s weapon swap CD, so it’s not like you can switch to P/P for a quick headshot/BP then immediately switch back to D/D for your big burst damage. Hopefully the design team will notice any OP discrepancies and deal with them… 3 to 6 months after they’re released with inadequate testing, as is Anet’s MO.

Edit:
Not having any wasted Init doesn’t automatically translate to every skill being amazingly useful in every situation. D/P is a very well built set, but berserker stance shuts it’s non-stealth mitigation options down hard – combined with any form of stability, and your only option is to hide in stealth/dodge away until 1 or both those effects fade. This doesn’t make D/P OP or UP, just a well designed set.

You can already go S/D – D/P with a handful of specs, and it isn’t considered broken. Heck, it isn’t even considered particularly strong, because you’re giving up too much by not taking ShBow (which could be part of the problem, tbh).

evilapprentice.6379:

@Sir Vincent

I don’t really see the problem with D/D / P/P – other classes have well built weaponsets they can switch between, why not thieves? Having weapon sets that compliment each other doesn’t make them broken. This goes for every weaponset I can think of.

All I’m asking is that we also explore the weapon set combinations, in action if we can. This way it gives us better perspective when making a suggestion for change.

Basically, put yourself in Anet’s shoes. Someone made a suggestion. How would you go about on verifying the claim? What data would you need to justify the change? And based on those data, is the claim justified? If so, what changes needs to be made?

If we leave the judgement to Anet, we’ll get “boon hate” and “torment”.

And if you really think about it, ShBow is currently considered a nigh mandatory weapon in TPvP for team fights and mobility – not taking it might boost your ability in 1on1 (In this hypothetical situation where most or all our weapons were well built) and small skirmishes, but you’re sacrificing things for that power

Can you make that case more stronger by adding supporting evidence? Can you show the loss of power and the increase in mobility in using Sb?

As Thief players, we all know this like the back of our enemies, but Anet don’t have devs playing Thief so they have no idea. So can you explain your claim that someone who has not played Thief will understand?

The initiative system changes the formula just a tad, but I have to imagine they had that in mind when they developed the class – if their intention was to have a bunch of dysfunctional or UP weaponsets due to the init system, I’d imagine they would have dropped it instead.

I’m sure that we both know that the Thief profession doesn’t flow very well. It seems that the Devs doesn’t know what to make of this profession. If you recall during the development, each class used to have energy similar to GW1, then they trashed that but left it for the Thief and call it Initiative. While other profession enjoys the limitless use of skills, Thieve has to settle with bursting. So our problem is beyond just the weapon sets.

Part of the problem also is the regeneration of Initiative, I believe 1init/1.33s is too slow. If the minor trait “Preparedness” makes the regen rate 3init/1.33s, then I believe that it will solve a lot of the problems we are facing with our current weapon set.

There’s still a 10s weapon swap CD, so it’s not like you can switch to P/P for a quick headshot/BP then immediately switch back to D/D for your big burst damage.

Yes I agree that the swap cooldown is a limit, no different than profession’s skill cooldown. However, we both know that if we want to burst someone down, we start with a Backstab then pepper them with Unload interrupting heals with Headshots. Then if we really have to, we can finish them off with Heartseeker — but we know that when a Thief burst someone down, the fight ends sooner than 10s.

Hopefully the design team will notice any OP discrepancies and deal with them… 3 to 6 months after they’re released with inadequate testing, as is Anet’s MO.

Well I think it is obvious that they have no idea how to fix our profession and I really doubt that they are willing to fix it. So far, the “boon hate” and “torment” is blowing up in their faces.

You can already go S/D – D/P with a handful of specs, and it isn’t considered broken.

That’s a very good example on what I’m talking about. Just look at that weapon set combination; it has control, interrupt, burst, stealth, blind, condition removal, gap closer, etc. If it’s not broken, it is super strong. The power level of that combination even goes further up when used with the right utility skills, traits, and runes.

These things we need to consider, because if we don’t, we’ll get the change we wanted then we’ll get nerfed back to the ground again.

I think all our problems would eventually be solved if anet played the thief.

Zacchary.6183:

I think all our problems would eventually be solved if anet played the thief.

Won’t happen, they’re all too busy playing warriors.

Galandil.9641:

Zacchary.6183:

I think all our problems would eventually be solved if anet played the thief.

Won’t happen, they’re all too busy playing warriors.

Did i do this right?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Can you make that case more stronger by adding supporting evidence? Can you show the loss of power and the increase in mobility in using Sb?

As Thief players, we all know this like the back of our enemies, but Anet don’t have devs playing Thief so they have no idea. So can you explain your claim that someone who has not played Thief will understand?

I wont say I completely disagree with you, but I’m not a paid employee of Anet – if I have to explain why Sb is more mobile, less powerful secondary weaponset then say D/P, I just don’t have the time. Some more complicated interactions could probably benefit from having an experienced thief explain them, but if Anet really needs me to explain the above, all I can offer is “Read the weapon skill descriptions, and look at the damage numbers”.

I’m sure that we both know that the Thief profession doesn’t flow very well. It seems that the Devs doesn’t know what to make of this profession. If you recall during the development, each class used to have energy similar to GW1, then they trashed that but left it for the Thief and call it Initiative. While other profession enjoys the limitless use of skills, Thieve has to settle with bursting. So our problem is beyond just the weapon sets.

Part of the problem also is the regeneration of Initiative, I believe 1init/1.33s is too slow. If the minor trait “Preparedness” makes the regen rate 3init/1.33s, then I believe that it will solve a lot of the problems we are facing with our current weapon set.

I agree that our base Init regen makes the class nigh unplayable – I’ve made posts about it before. I personally feel the gap between base Init regen and traited init regen should be narrowed, but that overall init regen shouldn’t be any higher than it is now for a player who has traited heavily for init regen.

Yes I agree that the swap cooldown is a limit, no different than profession’s skill cooldown. However, we both know that if we want to burst someone down, we start with a Backstab then pepper them with Unload interrupting heals with Headshots. Then if we really have to, we can finish them off with Heartseeker — but we know that when a Thief burst someone down, the fight ends sooner than 10s.

You’re spending an awful lot of initiative there in 10s – a single attempt at mitigation by your opponent (dodge, block, immunity, applied blind, etc…) will render that burst largely ineffective and leave you scrambling for the Init to finish them off before they heal/escape/down you. P/P in it’s current form is a big risk, seeing as all your damage is highly Init dependent. Even if we considered a well designed P/P (which for sake of argument is Direct damage based), it’s not like AA will fulfill the “burst” role.

Well I think it is obvious that they have no idea how to fix our profession and I really doubt that they are willing to fix it. So far, the “boon hate” and “torment” is blowing up in their faces.

They also don’t seem to take any thief related advice from the boards – I see them caving to “Wah, stealth is OP” pressure slowly but surely. I see them considering nerfing S/D because players don’t want to learn to time things. P/P has been abysmal since the basic meta stabilized back in Sept 2012, and it’s yet to be addressed, or even acknowledged (AFAIK)

(in reference to S/D – D/P)
That’s a very good example on what I’m talking about. Just look at that weapon set combination; it has control, interrupt, burst, stealth, blind, condition removal, gap closer, etc. If it’s not broken, it is super strong. The power level of that combination even goes further up when used with the right utility skills, traits, and runes.

These things we need to consider, because if we don’t, we’ll get the change we wanted then we’ll get nerfed back to the ground again.

If it is was so strong, I think we’d be seeing alot more of it. In the recent tourney, we saw 3 S/D SB thieves, but not a single S/D D/P thief. Again, this might be due to how necessary SB is for team fights/mobility, but even if in the future that changes, you’re talking about having those 2 different skill sets available to you for 10s at a time. HS is useless if you need it with 5s still on your swap CD. Your opponent has 10-12s to spam their boons and take advantage of them when they see you swap from S/D to D/P. I still don’t really see what’s wrong with 2 sets that follow the same basic damage philosophy (Direct damage, Condition damage) that each have their own strengths and weaknesses. That sounds to me like a way of playing the class that relies on a lot of skill and planning.

Zacchary.6183:

Galandil.9641:

Zacchary.6183:

I think all our problems would eventually be solved if anet played the thief.

Won’t happen, they’re all too busy playing warriors.

Did i do this right?

That explain the lack of Devs playing Thief. lol

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Can you make that case more stronger by adding supporting evidence? Can you show the loss of power and the increase in mobility in using Sb?

As Thief players, we all know this like the back of our enemies, but Anet don’t have devs playing Thief so they have no idea. So can you explain your claim that someone who has not played Thief will understand?

I wont say I completely disagree with you, but I’m not a paid employee of Anet – if I have to explain why Sb is more mobile, less powerful secondary weaponset then say D/P, I just don’t have the time. Some more complicated interactions could probably benefit from having an experienced thief explain them, but if Anet really needs me to explain the above, all I can offer is “Read the weapon skill descriptions, and look at the damage numbers”.

lol. That only works if you’re talking about Warriors.

With Thieves, we have to run a thousand miles, jump a hundred hoops, and swim across the Grand Canyon before they even bother looking our way.

I agree that our base Init regen makes the class nigh unplayable – I’ve made posts about it before. I personally feel the gap between base Init regen and traited init regen should be narrowed, but that overall init regen shouldn’t be any higher than it is now for a player who has traited heavily for init regen.

Yup, I remember that thread. To me, the down time after a burst leaves a bad taste in my mouth a lot of times specially with the ridiculous Revealed debuff.

You’re spending an awful lot of initiative there in 10s – a single attempt at mitigation by your opponent (dodge, block, immunity, applied blind, etc…) will render that burst largely ineffective and leave you scrambling for the Init to finish them off before they heal/escape/down you. P/P in it’s current form is a big risk, seeing as all your damage is highly Init dependent. Even if we considered a well designed P/P (which for sake of argument is Direct damage based), it’s not like AA will fulfill the “burst” role.

Often times I see my target panic at the sight of burst and they commit in making mistakes. But I agree that against a seasoned opponents, a better way is needed. So I guess, that’s another factor we need to consider.

Will the weapon set combination too punishing to unseasoned players and at the same time trivial against seasoned players?

I think we already know the answer to that.

They also don’t seem to take any thief related advice from the boards – I see them caving to “Wah, stealth is OP” pressure slowly but surely. I see them considering nerfing S/D because players don’t want to learn to time things. P/P has been abysmal since the basic meta stabilized back in Sept 2012, and it’s yet to be addressed, or even acknowledged (AFAIK)

I can’t even begin to understand their development process. We got “boon hate” and “torment” out of the blue. We got a lot of unexplained nerfs and “bug fixes”.

But as far as the upcoming update (Oct 15), they are focusing that update on support role. However I am anxious on what they are doing with the traits, moving them around.

If it is was so strong, I think we’d be seeing alot more of it. In the recent tourney, we saw 3 S/D SB thieves, but not a single S/D D/P thief. Again, this might be due to how necessary SB is for team fights/mobility, but even if in the future that changes, you’re talking about having those 2 different skill sets available to you for 10s at a time. HS is useless if you need it with 5s still on your swap CD. Your opponent has 10-12s to spam their boons and take advantage of them when they see you swap from S/D to D/P. I still don’t really see what’s wrong with 2 sets that follow the same basic damage philosophy (Direct damage, Condition damage) that each have their own strengths and weaknesses. That sounds to me like a way of playing the class that relies on a lot of skill and planning.

Using the tourney is really not a good sample when discussing about weapon set combination only because the choice is based on team composition and team strategy. If you remember in GW1, the build changes if the team will split or stay together. In a split, you’ll choose a more well rounded build, but if you stick together, you may choose to go all glassy.

Now if we look at the synergy of the weapon sets, we can see that D/P + Sb has no synergy — Sb in this combination is just a utility set. S/D + D/P on the other hand, you can combine the two set to practically evolve a new set. If your swap is in CD and your opponent is spamming boon and you’re stuck with S/d for 10s, then why aren’t you stripping the boons? By the time you strip the boons off of them, I’m sure they’re either dead or wide open for your Heartseeker.

It’s really is a strong weapon set combination.