Guild Wars 2

What are some changes we can expect for thiefs in the next balance patch?
Just listened to the whole latest SoTG podcast, thief wasn’t even
mentioned,kinda disheartning
Because there are so many issues with it currently, and the devs just seem to ignore us.
The prolonged revealed duration( 4s instead of 3s), uselessness of offhand dagger, dual daggers,mainhand pistol,p/p, awful utilities like traps…
Going a little more into details,starting with d/d:
4s revealed feels very clunky to play with,especially with d/d as your rotaion is cnd > bs > auto attack chain >cnd > rinse and repeat.
3s was PERFECT for it, it gave you just enough time for a whole auto attCk chain and then you could immediately cast cnd and go into stealth again, which gives theif tremendous amounts of fluidity, which is so missed in pvp currently!
Offhand pistol alreDy has major advantages over OH dagger, and with the reveal nerf, there’s no room for consideration.
I mean,come on! We’re supposed to be an assassin class, d/d should be our trademark!
It should the most burst,or at least reward you for the risk of fighting from zero range,but it’s honestly as of now a hindrance compared to d/p!
D/D is very close to laughable in its current state.
Deathblosslm? For the considerable amount of int it costs it brings nothing to the table, awfully low direct dmg (even as GC), awful evade time, and very medicore bleeding dmg.
Dancing Dagger? While a cripple on demand sounds good on paper, it doesn’t do anything for the thief that’s worth wasting time and int using this skill (except for the occasional runner,but even then you have heartseeker…or IS,or shadow shot, which are all better for catching running foes).
CnD? Currently the sole reason a thief may consider taking an OH dagger, a stealth on demand that does dmg and inflicts vulnerability, however the prolonged revealed just ruins the viability of this gameplay…4s takes away all the fluidity from the comBo, as mentioned above.
Add to it the fact the dmg was nerfed by what? 10% or 30%…
Not viable…our trademark is a joke, it’s so frustrating! You’ll never see a d/d assassin in Tpvp for those exact reasons.

Mainhand Pistol:
Slow auto attack, body shot is completely and utterly a useless skill, no mobility or stealth for p/p which equals dead thief…that’s just how it is.

Traps:
I don’t even know what to write, other than the fact they’re so lacklaster and not worth a spot in my utility bar.

Can any dev throw us Thiefs a bone? Something to let us know these issues are being looked at…

another “state of the x” thread? its getting ridiculous, dont these kind of threads belong in the profession specific subforum?

Not if they’re specifically pvp oriented threads.

MightyMe.1356:

Not if they’re specifically pvp oriented threads.

if you’re asking for changes to skill then its not specifically pvp oriented at all.

They might as well be posted here if for no other reason that the thief forum most certainly goes neglected. Last time devs were there other than I believe to try and qualm pve complaints about 4s reveal was so Roberta Honda could talk about how she is able to kill thieves on her Ranger. With the community there being pleased that they can be killed.
Lol wot. Other then that it was Jon Peters talking about making headway for Pistol/Pistol back in December.
Good luck OP.

ahuba.6430:

MightyMe.1356:

Not if they’re specifically pvp oriented threads.

if you’re asking for changes to skill then its not specifically pvp oriented at all.

Well the PvP devs rarely ever post in the class forums. And these skills need changes towards sPvP.

Or you can always roll a necromancer or a warrior they are definitely way better

I might be wrong but… D/D rotation wasn’t truly “viable” in tPvP. dancing around a target trying to finish an auto attack chain without dodges/blinds at melee range was suicide in most cases.

the D/D rotation that used to be popular was CnD > BS > 222222. the one you’re talking about is a PvE rotation used against mobs who won’t properly react to most attacks.

the falling on d/d on PvP had nothing to do with the 4s revealed. it simply doesn’t bring anything to the table.

D/D: needs to be close and hit to stealth, no cc, mobility

D/P
-Perma Stealth
-Lots of Regen
-Condi removal
-Gap Closers
-Dazes
-Blind finishers

S/D
- Unlimited Evades
- Tele in/out
-Condi Removal
-Stun breaker
- Immobalize
- Daze
- Stealth

google.3709:

I might be wrong but… D/D rotation wasn’t truly “viable” in tPvP. dancing around a target trying to finish an auto attack chain without dodges/blinds at melee range was suicide in most cases.

the D/D rotation that used to be popular was CnD > BS > 222222. the one you’re talking about is a PvE rotation used against mobs who won’t properly react to most attacks.

the falling on d/d on PvP had nothing to do with the 4s revealed. it simply doesn’t bring anything to the table.

D/D: needs to be close and hit to stealth, no cc, mobility

D/P
-Perma Stealth
-Lots of Regen
-Condi removal
-Gap Closers
-Dazes
-Blind finishers

S/D
- Unlimited Evades
- Tele in/out
-Condi Removal
-Stun breaker
- Immobalize
- Daze
- Stealth

That’s pretty much it. You can choose to be an annoying burster that is immune to conditions and mitigates some damage, or you can choose to be an annoying burster that is immune to damage and removes some conditions.

I would rather see D/P-D/D-S/D builds reworked and weakened to an extent to allow for more builds such as P/P and S/P to shine through.

It’s not D/P or S/D that need rework to make other sets viable.

It’s P/P and S/P that need to be reworked, because as of now both of them rely on spamming either Unload or Pistol Whip over and over. It needs to go.

google.3709:

I might be wrong but… D/D rotation wasn’t truly “viable” in tPvP. dancing around a target trying to finish an auto attack chain without dodges/blinds at melee range was suicide in most cases.

the D/D rotation that used to be popular was CnD > BS > 222222. the one you’re talking about is a PvE rotation used against mobs who won’t properly react to most attacks.

the falling on d/d on PvP had nothing to do with the 4s revealed. it simply doesn’t bring anything to the table.

D/D: needs to be close and hit to stealth, no cc, mobility

D/P
-Perma Stealth
-Lots of Regen
-Condi removal
-Gap Closers
-Dazes
-Blind finishers

S/D
- Unlimited Evades
- Tele in/out
-Condi Removal
-Stun breaker
- Immobalize
- Daze
- Stealth

Are you referring to the WvW build, 10/30/30? That is not viable in tPvP because of perma stealth.

Harrier.9380:

It’s not D/P or S/D that need rework to make other sets viable.

It’s P/P and S/P that need to be reworked, because as of now both of them rely on spamming either Unload or Pistol Whip over and over. It needs to go.

Then you would have to buff P/P and S/P to near gamebreaking levels to bring them in line with D/P and S/D. Unlimited Evades should not be possible on any class. Condition Removal and Regeneration should not be possible to the extent that a Thief has it. I’m not talking about huge nerfs, just changes to discourage the current meta.

I only want what is best for the Thief, since I fell in love with P/P and S/D, but I do have to stand back and take an unbiased approach at this. Key word meaning “Balance”. If you find that S/D and D/P are balanced, then you are severely mistaken. You have to look at it like a scale

Weak : P/P S/P P/D | Balanced : N/A | Strong : S/D D/P D/D

They both have to be moved into the center for overall balance.

I’m not saying P/P and S/P should be BUFFED, but completely REWORKED. Most inportantly, they should not be forced to spam single skill 24/7.

Glass D/P has nearly no condi removal, no regeneration whatsoever and by no means perma stealth. Sure, you can build for it, but what use to the team is a thief who has to spend 90% time stealthed? You can run that build in WvW but not in tPvP.

Also, bunch of other classes still have much better condi removal/regen/heals than permastealth D/P thief.

I agree S/D is way over the top though. L.Strike is too spammable and simply does too much with its boonsteal and being unblockable. And perma-evade (a.k.a. Jumper’s) build is simply broken. Hell, I took it to zergjoin once while wearing no armor, still won 1v1s and got top score easily.

D/P has plenty of condition removal through stealth. It also has plenty of burst. Remember, you also have a secondary weapon set too.

S/D is somewhat broken, but I still prefer it to Backstab/stealth/Heartseeker builds. I like the idea of a Thief using Evades and Teleports to mitigate damage, just not to the extent that it does.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

D/P has plenty of condition removal through stealth. It also has plenty of burst. Remember, you also have a secondary weapon set too.

S/D is somewhat broken, but I still prefer it to Backstab/stealth/Heartseeker builds. I like the idea of a Thief using Evades and Teleports to mitigate damage, just not to the extent that it does.

D/P, has NO condi removal through stealth. Why would you spend 30 trait points to get Shadows Rejuvenation? 10/30/30/0/0 is not viable for tPvP, shadow arts in general is a bad trait line for tPvP. It requires to much stealth spam, and no stealth skills allow to cap.

The standard D/P thief for sPvP (this is the sPvP forum) is 25/30/0/0/15.

Harrier.9380:

It’s not D/P or S/D that need rework to make other sets viable.

It’s P/P and S/P that need to be reworked, because as of now both of them rely on spamming either Unload or Pistol Whip over and over. It needs to go.

Go where? S/P probably needs the smallest tweaks of any thief set to go back into prominence. It was usable all the way until the quickness nerf and utilized all of it’s skills.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Harrier.9380:

It’s not D/P or S/D that need rework to make other sets viable.

It’s P/P and S/P that need to be reworked, because as of now both of them rely on spamming either Unload or Pistol Whip over and over. It needs to go.

Then you would have to buff P/P and S/P to near gamebreaking levels to bring them in line with D/P and S/D. Unlimited Evades should not be possible on any class. Condition Removal and Regeneration should not be possible to the extent that a Thief has it. I’m not talking about huge nerfs, just changes to discourage the current meta.

I only want what is best for the Thief, since I fell in love with P/P and S/D, but I do have to stand back and take an unbiased approach at this. Key word meaning “Balance”. If you find that S/D and D/P are balanced, then you are severely mistaken. You have to look at it like a scale

Weak : P/P S/P P/D | Balanced : N/A | Strong : S/D D/P D/D

They both have to be moved into the center for overall balance.

There aren’t unlimited evades and S/D had more evasion pre-buff. Lazy to check but if I’m remembering correctly S/P has more actual evasion time than S/D but it’s less practical due to the wind up and clunkier since you have to cancel your PW forcibly before you can dodge.

S/P is not in the same tier as P/P in the slightest. S/P only really became problematic to run after the quickness nerf and many thieves still presume that somewhere Venom Share will be useful and S/P is arguably the best at it.

S/P doesn’t even need anything but number changes unless they plan to throw in QOL changes like getting past Stability/retaliation or making PW’s stun come out faster.

The set itself uses all its skills has always used all it’s skills even before it’s first nerf, and likely will continue to use all it’s skills if they give it minor tweaks. Probably the 1st or 2nd most well put kit we have in terms of how the skills are put together if it weren’t for them dropping multiple nerfs to it that added up.
Still better than P/P that thing needs a rework imo.

Oh and D/D is trash. CnD nerf, DD nerf, Mug nerf, Haste nerf, Death blossom not even used, wtf is strong about D/D, Shortbow nerf, P/ not usable, so it struggles to get targets to ~50%. Shadow arts bruising? Other classes are more efficient.

D/D is fine, because it can be used to easily chain CnD into Backstab bursting You simply have to be careful about your survivability like most glass cannons. Shortbow still works quite well as a secondary to D/D.

A Thief acrobatics build works best on S/D, and therefore S/D has a large quantity of evades, more so than any other class in the game.

S/P is still weak without the Quickness.

The list still stands as is. I haven’t seen any reason why D/D is considered unviable, because it isn’t. Berserker S/P is probably the closest to balance any Thief build has ever gotten, but it still needs to be fixed, and therefore it sits in the weak section.

Also, EonX, you cannot go by meta builds for balance. As they are often filled with problems. Experiment for yourself. Try using D/P on a stealth build, focusing more on power, less on crit damage. 37% crit damage, 47%+ Crit chance, and 3,200 attack is a very good target to shoot for on a Thief build, and still allows for a bit of focus for Survivability. 30 in Stealth is incredibly strong and makes Condition Removal hardly a thought.

The easiest fix for S/P would be to just remove the stun from Pistol Whip. You now have a self rooting evade (drop inititative from 5 to 4 to match Disabling Shot).

Very simple change with a very decisive impact.

For /D, it’s rather obvious that Dancing Dagger needs to actually have the cripple duration match the tooltip and secondly add a burning (though I read poison somewhere and I believe this to be another good suggestion by Ensoriki, if I am not mistaken).

I do feel like burning is kind of needed for any condition build of any class. The condition is just too powerful and classes who have no access to it, will always fall short. Poison, however, is very defining for the class, so that it should be present on more than just the main hand dagger.

Come to think of it, I would probably add burning to Dancing Dagger and change the Lotus Poison trait so that you’d apply poison for 3 seconds everytime you weakened your target rather than applying weakness everytime you poison it.

We could then put weakness on Body Shot as well, for Pistol builds.

There isnt anything wrong with the stun other then it taking forever to come out.

google.3709:

I might be wrong but… D/D rotation wasn’t truly “viable” in tPvP. dancing around a target trying to finish an auto attack chain without dodges/blinds at melee range was suicide in most cases.

the D/D rotation that used to be popular was CnD > BS > 222222. the one you’re talking about is a PvE rotation used against mobs who won’t properly react to most attacks.

the falling on d/d on PvP had nothing to do with the 4s revealed. it simply doesn’t bring anything to the table.

D/D: needs to be close and hit to stealth, no cc, mobility

D/P
-Perma Stealth
-Lots of Regen
-Condi removal
-Gap Closers
-Dazes
-Blind finishers

S/D
- Unlimited Evades
- Tele in/out
-Condi Removal
-Stun breaker
- Immobalize
- Daze
- Stealth

Dagger auto attack chain is very quick and in conjuction with cloacked in shadow +dodge rolls it can be very difficult to melee the thief.
However…revealed at 4s does not allow it in pvp…which is very saddening to me

ahuba.6430:

MightyMe.1356:

Not if they’re specifically pvp oriented threads.

if you’re asking for changes to skill then its not specifically pvp oriented at all.

Your wrong. They keep skill changes separate between spvp and pve/wvw. Most times that is

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

D/P has plenty of condition removal through stealth. It also has plenty of burst. Remember, you also have a secondary weapon set too.

S/D is somewhat broken, but I still prefer it to Backstab/stealth/Heartseeker builds. I like the idea of a Thief using Evades and Teleports to mitigate damage, just not to the extent that it does.

S/D is NOT broken.

Larcenous is too rewarding, but that’s about it.

Remember you have to ALWAYS think at a functional tPvP environment in order to judge balance.

In that environment, any thief built for survivability will drop its damage ridicolously, and since a thief can only bring damage on the table, builds like 10-30-30 are NOT viable.

A thief has 2 effective builds to play: glass cannon and acro S/D thief.

S/D thief is very, VERY overrated mostly due to the fact it’s a very selfish and self sufficient build, perfect for solo roaming, while D/P , while being by far more effective in coordinated teams, requires more coordination and is more reliant to your teammates.

AKA: you can do well with an S/D build without caring about your teammates, while with D/P you need to , well, play as a team in order to maximize its effectiveness ( even suldaris goes back to D/P from times to times).

S/D is, currently, Larcenous strike and nothing else: the set ( and specially OH dagger) need serious buffs, along with better traits in order to make the thief not reliant to certain skills.

In fact, num. 1 reason why thieves are brought in tPvP by competitive teams is SHADOW REFUGE ( in order to coordinate spikes from stealth) and num 2. reason why is MOBILITY ( shortbow).

Anything else sucks. Remove these 2 things and you’re left with a broken class.

This is food for thought.

D/d used to be amazing before dancing dagger nerf. Since then it’s sucked.

Anet said thief was supposed to be “the burst class” and then gave one of thier main burst abilities over 50% damage nerf.

Why run burst thief anymore? Half the time the enemy stun breaks it. The other half they don’t die quick enough and you are left exposed with little defensive tools.

IMO, thief burst got killed with mug nerf. I’d like to see something done for burst thief.

Mesmer and warrior do better burst and thier burst is aoe! Why did thief receive such a big nerf? Cause of noobs…

Either that or id like to see damage improved for 0/30/30 builds.

P/p useless.

S/d infiltrator strike weapon swapping bug needs to be fixed.

4s revealed needs to go. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve come from wvw to spvp only to get myself owned because I try to stealth to early. 4s revealed was the dumbest most unnecessary nerf ever.

Thieves need help in spvp. Wvw they seem fine except for game breaking stealth traps.

Would be really nice if we could get the damage from full zerkers from wvw in spvp…

D/D was played as a quick switch after using sb main during team fights in order to mug combo someone down after choking gas, cluster and trickshot had burned through a few cds and brought them to around 50% hp.

And by D/D was played, I mean I was the last person to run D/D, and that’s how I ran it. D/D, however, sucks gigantic donkeyballs vs team comps with D/P thieves for the following reason: You can’t kittening hit their thieves.

Mug, the CnD nerf, and the trickshot nerf all have significantly reduced both the rate at which thieves put pressure onto points during team fights, and reduced the effective window in which they can burst.

More importantly, however, engineers have forced teams to bring walls of reflection and feedbacks, both of which, oddly enough, ruin D/D by severely mitigating shortbow. So instead, now thieves all run D/P or S/D. S/D won’t last a huge amount of time, because the build is rather easy to lock down in a team fight once you learn the animations and understand when the thief is going to be vulnerable. D/P, however, has access both to headshot, shadowshot and blackpowder, all of which are excellent skills which demand respect.

Black Powder, it should be noted, gained a lot from the nerf to frenzy: being able to run warriors and burn frenzies to deal with the blind application of black powder allowed warriors to be a much larger threat than they currently are to D/P thieves. Additionally, trap rangers were quite vulnerable to shortbow pressure during team fights, and their skillset had a lot of synergy with sb + d/d, allowing for cnd backstab into concussive shotted setups for mace skull crack, into dog knockdown into zephyr crossfire. The current D/P + bm setups don’t offer the same amount of residual pressure on guardians, which is just as well, because the currently popular engineer centric team-fights play out completely differently than far point pressure with classes that can disengage + spike pressure on mid.

Ah jeez, I write too much.

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

swinsk.6410:

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

Honestly I’m perfectly fine wih the sb nerf, it’s not what’s bothering me about thief

Bumping for some more opinions perhaps?

I still think dagger/pistol needs to be reworked. The burst is technically balanced in group play, but how easy it is to pull off and how much damage it does presents a number of problems, including making the game less accessible to new players and punishing players way too quickly when a thief decides to jump into an ongoing fight. These aren’t necessarily balance problems, but they do hinder playability, entertainment, and skillful plays.

swinsk.6410:

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

You mean the fact that SB arrows are no longer heat seeking? Seriously, how can a nerf like that impact the thief in some way?

To the OP:

1. 4s revealed is just fine. It is just extremely effective that a Thief can perform an almost instant 6-7k combo every 4 seconds, why on this world do you want revealed to be reverted to 3s? It will hurt WvWvW a lot and it would bring nothing to tPvP.
2. Dagger OH is actually a fair trade for Pistol OH. While Pistol OH doesn’t require you to have a target to have Stealth and costs more initiative, Dagger OH offers longer stealth at lower initiative cost AND a snare, which is something extremely useful against running targets.
3. Death Blossom is actually the only reliable source of bleed to condition thieves. Are you saying that 10s of 3stacks of bleeds on initiative is laughable? Probably compared to Granade Kit, yes, but it is the only exception in this game.
4. I actually use D/D in tPvP. You don’t see any other spec for the main reason that everyone is running S/D in tPvP.
5. I agree on Pisol. The autoattack is not that good, but Unload is useful in some situations.
6. Actually, traps are really useful. Shadow Trap is great to fastly move among nodes and quickly burst down targets. Ambush is pretty much half of Thieves Guild and everybody know how useful that elite is. Needle and Tripwire offerst the snares and the CC the Thief needs. Not to say they are all unblockable and on a low cooldown. I think people need to use traps more before complaining about them.

sorrow.2364:

swinsk.6410:

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

You mean the fact that SB arrows are no longer heat seeking? Seriously, how can a nerf like that impact the thief in some way?

It completely decimated the thief’s ability to provide sustainable levels of pressure from range, entirely crushed the sb as an option to chase someone disengaging and made 15+ points in deadly arts a hell of a lot less valuable because staying in shortbow to apply choking gas’s weakness isn’t as appealing when there’s no sustained damage.

The nerf to trickshot lowers the skill’s sustained damage in team fights by more than 40% on most maps.

You probably won’t notice the difference in hotjoins, because people there will not stutterstep your trickshots intentionally, nor will you notice the difference in ranged pressure because proper rotations aren’t really a thing, and timings are far looser.

Archer Henchman.2534:

sorrow.2364:

swinsk.6410:

Forgot about shortbow nerf. That one hurt a lot in spvp. I still use shortbow tho because its still out best aoe weapon.

You mean the fact that SB arrows are no longer heat seeking? Seriously, how can a nerf like that impact the thief in some way?

It completely decimated the thief’s ability to provide sustainable levels of pressure from range, entirely crushed the sb as an option to chase someone disengaging and made 15+ points in deadly arts a hell of a lot less valuable because staying in shortbow to apply choking gas’s weakness isn’t as appealing when there’s no sustained damage.

The nerf to trickshot lowers the skill’s sustained damage in team fights by more than 40% on most maps.

You probably won’t notice the difference in hotjoins, because people there will not stutterstep your trickshots intentionally, nor will you notice the difference in ranged pressure because proper rotations aren’t really a thing, and timings are far looser.

I bet they’ll increase arrow speed like they did with the ranger, in order to avoid the random “obstructed” or “miss” we face anytime we use the shortbow.

Still thief problems are other, and more serious, ones.

Like jumper said, we need MORE than 2 good skills we can spam freely ( when people complain about S/D) : we need versatility, something that only D/P and, to a certain degree, S/P have (also pre-nerf D/D, if we remove death blossom).

1. Death blossom should be reworked, and aNet need to get their mind clear with daggers ( condi ? direct damage ? control/support ? )

2. OH dagger should become a support weapon like OH pistol, there’re tons of ways to do so ( make dancing dagger and C&D able to spread poison/weakness or similar, reduce ini cost while not making C&D able to gain benefits from Infusion of Shadow).
Like this it could be used by condition sets like P/D.

3. Pistol whip needs to be reworked.

4. Sword traits, please

5. Overall better traits: we need more sinergies, the thief is the class with absolutely worst sinergies in the whole game, and with arguably one of the worst set of traits.

( a good example of a good sinergy is Lotus Poison trait).

A thief has overall no ways to be played if not stacking damage or ini regen.

Rehaul stealth tree, stealth has no use both in PvP and PvE: you should reward players to actively use stealth, not to sit passively in it while gaining health and initiative.

We need support options, and overall we need MORE DAMAGE and LESS DAMAGE TRAITS STACKING.

6. You need to revaluate the trade off between certain u-skills.

traps are horribad ( mostly due to having no traits related, not being AoEs and not being persistent), Shadow refuge is borderline OP and n.1 reason why the thief is brought into competitive play, Roll for Ini is horrible, smoke screen, venoms, blinding powder and such are all terrible choices if you compare them to other stuff like signets ( aside signet of shadows) and shadow refuge.

With some of them you can cover the issue wirh traits ( like venoms and , maybe, deceptions), other ones ( like tricks, especially scorpionwire, and traps) need overhaul.

Thanks anet, pls.

Mrbig.8019:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

D/P has plenty of condition removal through stealth. It also has plenty of burst. Remember, you also have a secondary weapon set too.

S/D is somewhat broken, but I still prefer it to Backstab/stealth/Heartseeker builds. I like the idea of a Thief using Evades and Teleports to mitigate damage, just not to the extent that it does.

S/D is NOT broken.

Larcenous is too rewarding, but that’s about it.

Remember you have to ALWAYS think at a functional tPvP environment in order to judge balance.

In that environment, any thief built for survivability will drop its damage ridicolously, and since a thief can only bring damage on the table, builds like 10-30-30 are NOT viable.

A thief has 2 effective builds to play: glass cannon and acro S/D thief.

S/D thief is very, VERY overrated mostly due to the fact it’s a very selfish and self sufficient build, perfect for solo roaming, while D/P , while being by far more effective in coordinated teams, requires more coordination and is more reliant to your teammates.

AKA: you can do well with an S/D build without caring about your teammates, while with D/P you need to , well, play as a team in order to maximize its effectiveness ( even suldaris goes back to D/P from times to times).

S/D is, currently, Larcenous strike and nothing else: the set ( and specially OH dagger) need serious buffs, along with better traits in order to make the thief not reliant to certain skills.

In fact, num. 1 reason why thieves are brought in tPvP by competitive teams is SHADOW REFUGE ( in order to coordinate spikes from stealth) and num 2. reason why is MOBILITY ( shortbow).

Anything else sucks. Remove these 2 things and you’re left with a broken class.

This is food for thought.

I agree with pretty much everything just one thing i have to say,

S/D is not overrated, it’s currently by far the best roamer you can have because of the insane mobility. No class can jump between nodes as fast as a double S/D thief. Also Inf strike probably the best skill we have but thats on S/P too.