Guild Wars 2

This is a sub topic for the state of the thief. you can get to the main overview by clicking one of the links below.
This Topic is used to discuss about a specific skill or trait and to make suggestions on how to improve it.

• General
• Traits – weak
• Traits – strong
• Skills – weak
• Skills – strong
• Wild Ideas

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Venoms:
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I will make this sub topic special because it’s not about a single trait or skill but about a skilltype with designated traits. So changes would affect not only the single trait or skill but everything that is linked to it. Keep in mind that venom share can make some stuff extremely powerful.

All venoms have the same cooldown and duration.

Cooldown: 45 seconds
Duration: 30 seconds
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Skills:
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Devourer Venom:
Your next two attacks Immobilize. (2 seconds)

Ice Drake Venom:
Chill foes with the next three attacks. (1 second)

Skale Venom:
Apply Skale Venom to your attacks. (10 seconds vulnerability, 5 seconds torment)

Spider Venom:
Poison foes with your next five attacks. (6 seconds)
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Elite Skill:
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Basilisk Venom:
Your next attack turns your foe to stone. (1.5 seconds stun, 1 second activation time)

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Traits: Deadly Arts
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IV Venomous Strength
When applied, venoms grant 2 stacks of might for 20 seconds.

VIII Quick Venoms
Venom skills recharge 20% faster.

XII Residual Venom
Applied venoms last one extra strike.
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Traits: Shadow Arts
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IX Leeching Venoms
Steal health when triggering a venom. This can only occur once per strike.

XII Venomous Aura
When you use a venom skill, you apply the effects to all nearby allies as well.
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Ideas :
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PopeUrban.2578:

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Skills:
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Devourer Venom:
add cripple and bleed

Ice Drake Venom:
Add debuff on each hit. 3 stacks of debuff freezes enemy

Skale Venom:
Increase torment duration

Spider Venom:
Add a 1s immobilze in addition to poison. (Canyon spiders!)

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Elite Skill:
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Basilisk Venom:
Remove activation time or make the stun unbreakable

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Traits:
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Merge quick/residual venoms in to slot XII

Replace VII with:
Potent venoms – Gain 50 (100?) conditon damage for 15 seconds each time you use a venom.

Black Teagan.9215:

General
Reduce CD’s of Venoms to 35 Secs, except BV.
Poison duration of Spider Venom: 5 secs per hit. 5 Attacks.
+
Improved Venoms (Potent Poison merged into Quick Venoms)
Venom skills recharge 20% faster and (poison) have a higher duration of 25%.

Basilisk Venom
CD 50-60 Sec
Your next attack turns your foe to stone and remove all buffs for 1,5 secs.

Devourer Venom:
Add 5s cripple and 2 stacks of 5s bleed.

Ice Drake Venom:
Chill foes with the next three attacks. (1 second) and add freeze counters on each hit. These counters persist for ten seconds and can not be removed. If a target acquires three freeze counters, that target is frozen in a block of ice, stunning it for three seconds.

Skale Venom:
Apply Skale Venom to your attacks. (10 seconds vulnerability, 10 seconds torment)

Spider Venom:
Add a 1s immobilze in addition to poison. (Canyon spiders!)

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Elite Skill:
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Basilisk Venom:
Your next attack turns your foe to stone. (1.5 seconds stun, 1 second activation time) Make this instacast, OR return it’s old functionality (the only unbreakable stun in the game)

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Traits:
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Merge quick/residual venoms in to slot XII

Replace VII with:
Potent venoms – Gain 50 (100?) conditon damage for 15 seconds each time you use a venom.

Venoms have a classic design problem. They are balanced so that thieves with all the venom traits are not overpowered, however this means that venom skills themselves are poor. Instead the venom skills should be worth a slot without any traits and then given a reasonable boost by better designed traits.

This essentially means that the existing venom traits are too strong. Clearly though the venom skills have to be improved before making the venom traits weaker.

Stooperdale.3560:

Venoms have a classic design problem. They are balanced so that thieves with all the venom traits are not overpowered, however this means that venom skills themselves are poor. Instead the venom skills should be worth a slot without any traits and then given a reasonable boost by better designed traits.

This essentially means that the existing venom traits are too strong. Clearly though the venom skills have to be improved before making the venom traits weaker.

I agree with you.
Using Venoms without the traits is to weak.
Using Venom traits with only 1 venom is to weak

Traits like Venomous Aura combined with the Basilisk Venom is also a big problem.
Think about what would happen if you allow other classes to share their elite.

I think changing Basilisk Venom to have no activation time like the other venoms would be amazing. It would give you the unique ability in PvE to interrupt bosses even with defiant stacks up. And in PvP the warrior would still be better at stunning.

PopeUrban.2578:

Devourer Venom:
Add 5s cripple and 2 stacks of 5s bleed.

Ice Drake Venom:
Chill foes with the next three attacks. (1 second) and add freeze counters on each hit. These counters persist for ten seconds and can not be removed. If a target acquires three freeze counters, that target is frozen in a block of ice, stunning it for three seconds.

Skale Venom:
Apply Skale Venom to your attacks. (10 seconds vulnerability, 10 seconds torment)

Spider Venom:
Add a 1s immobilze in addition to poison. (Canyon spiders!)

———————————————
Elite Skill:
———————————————
Basilisk Venom:
Your next attack turns your foe to stone. (1.5 seconds stun, 1 second activation time) Make this instacast, OR return it’s old functionality (the only unbreakable stun in the game)

———————————————
Traits:
———————————————
Merge quick/residual venoms in to slot XII

Replace VII with:
Potent venoms – Gain 50 (100?) conditon damage for 15 seconds each time you use a venom.

I like your ideas so far. But your Ice Drake Venom would be overpowered with venom share. You would have to add a damage reduction for the enemy while frozen

The potent venoms trait would be amazing if it works with venom share so the damaging venoms are more effecient on not condition speced allies.

Stooperdale.3560:

Venoms have a classic design problem. They are balanced so that thieves with all the venom traits are not overpowered, however this means that venom skills themselves are poor. Instead the venom skills should be worth a slot without any traits and then given a reasonable boost by better designed traits.

This essentially means that the existing venom traits are too strong. Clearly though the venom skills have to be improved before making the venom traits weaker.

Same with thief signets. They suck overall save for maybe Infiltrator’s Signet (stun break), Signet of Malice (best signet thieves have) and Signet of Agility (endurance refill) but when you trait them with Signet Use and Signets of Power they become viable. Aside from the stat boosts I would not equip most of them…. ever.

Venoms should never have been utility skills to begin with. They should have been Class skills right next to Steal.

Stooperdale.3560:

Venoms have a classic design problem. They are balanced so that thieves with all the venom traits are not overpowered, however this means that venom skills themselves are poor. Instead the venom skills should be worth a slot without any traits and then given a reasonable boost by better designed traits.

This essentially means that the existing venom traits are too strong. Clearly though the venom skills have to be improved before making the venom traits weaker.

This so much. Venoms are pretty underpowered without the traits. If they get buffed, you need to tone down the traits.

My problem with Venom utilities is that the cooldown are entirely too long for what they do.

Venom Cooldowns
My second issue with Venoms are their cooldowns. For what Venoms do (apply a condition to your next attack), their cooldowns seem needlessly long. This is compounded by what I mentioned above. Venoms have a base 45 second cooldown, and 36 seconds traited. For an fairly simple attack modifier, that is a really long time in between uses.

Proposal #1: Lower the base cooldown of the utility Venoms to around 20-25 seconds base and remove Quick Venoms.

Proposal #2: A passive chance to apply the Venom(s) on attack as long as the Venom is equipped to your utility bar. This way, the Venoms being on cooldown doesn’t feel so punishing due to their inherent cooldowns._

Sidenote, across the traitlines for all classes, I feel there are far too many cooldown reduction traits in general and that instead of traiting for lower cooldowns, the skills themselves should be adjusted and the CDR traits removed for more interesting options. That’s a different discussion entirely though.

I agree with @Rafahil, Venoms, or even traps, probably never should have been utilities they just don’t seem to work well with anything, and a thief hardly can replace them for anything that a thief uses for utilities.

NightmareFiction.5478:

My problem with Venom utilities are two-fold: You have little control over when your Venom is applied to a target and the cooldown on Venoms are entirely too long for what they do.

Venom “Queuing”
This is the primary reason I lost interest in Venoms once I actually used them and figured out how they work. You attack, the debuff is applied, and continued attacks simply refresh the cooldown essentially wasting Venom “charges”. This creates a situation where in order to get the most use out of your Venom’s effect, you have to lag your attacks so not to refresh the debuff but re-apply it, which is counterproductive to not only general combat but how you’d want conditions to work.

If you apply a condition that does not stack in intensity, you naturally want it to tick it’s entire duration; that is simply how you get the most mileage of that condition. In combat, you want to constantly inflict damage on your opponent, as that is simply how you win. You cannot theoretically fulfill both of these basic desires using the Thief’s Venom, making them unsatisfying to use. Basilisk Venom is probably the only exception, as it’s a single “charge” and therefore you fulfill both by default.

If a condition stacks duration then subsequent applications will lengthen the application. I.e if you use Spider Vendom, it goes 6 × 5 = 30 seconds.

1.the only thing the Venoms need is a larger venom aura radius, because not everyone in the party is melee
2.because of the next nerf that comes (conditions can be stacked 5 times max), will make the venoms even more useless than they are now, unless this happens:

Proposal #3: Removing the “per attack” portion in favor of simply adding the individual charges together into a single application. For example, Ice Drake applies 1 sec of Chill on your next 3 attacks becomes Ice Drake applies 3 secs of Chill on your next attack.

Claretta.1742:

If a condition stacks duration then subsequent applications will lengthen the application. I.e if you use Spider Vendom, it goes 6 × 5 = 30 seconds.

Huh. I was always under the impression that the condition was overwritten, never bothered to mouse over the condition icon to see if the duration stacked or not.

NightmareFiction.5478:

Claretta.1742:

If a condition stacks duration then subsequent applications will lengthen the application. I.e if you use Spider Vendom, it goes 6 × 5 = 30 seconds.

Huh. I was always under the impression that the condition was overwritten, never bothered to mouse over the condition icon to see if the duration stacked or not.

its a bit complicated. it depends on the condition and the source of the condition.
caltrops for example is capped at 10s cripple while the caltrops on dodge have no limit.

“1.the only thing the Venoms need is a larger venom aura radius, because not everyone in the party is melee”

This answer suggests that venoms only work well if (1) you are in a group (2) you have a grandmaster trait and (3) the grandmaster trait is improved. That is not satisfactory for a line of utility skills.

Awesome thread

Stooperdale hit the nail on the head. If you buff them to much then residual venoms looks really attractive and could then look overpowered.

Traited the venoms look pretty strong devourer will actually become stronger with the change to immobilize stacking duration like it should now it just overlaps. If you spec duration then you definitely can be looking at 12 seconds of immobilize if you take residual(WvW). Then throw in the main hand pistol change with body shot giving 1 sec immobilize on top of it.

Not many people take residual venoms though maybe for novelty.

I do think the base cd could be brought down. Or different venoms have different recharges they don’t have to be uniform. Ice drake venom could be 20 secs with as weak as it is.

My suggestion:

[General]
Reduce CD’s of Venoms to 35 Secs, except BV.
Poison duration of Spider Venom: 5 secs per hit. 5 Attacks.
+
[Improved Venoms]
Venom skills recharge 20% faster and (poison) have a higher duration of 25%.

^Potent Poison and Quick Venoms are combinate into one T2-Trait.

[Basilisk Venom] CD 50-60 Sec; Effect can’t stack
Your next attack turns your foe to stone and remove all buffs for 1,5 secs.

The culprit is mostly Venomous Aura, which is easily an overpowered trait when considering what the baseline is and how it affects it. What they need to do is balance Venoms around not having Venomous Aura, then have Venomous Aura weaken them in some way while spreading them to the party.

I would advocate something like increasing the number of attacks the Venom is active by 1 on each Venom, then having Venomous Aura reduce them by 1 when spread to other folks.

However, all durations stacking has been a bit of an indirect buff to Venoms, so that should help some.

Einlanzer.1627:

The culprit is mostly Venomous Aura, which is easily an overpowered trait when considering what the baseline is and how it affects it. What they need to do is balance Venoms around not having Venomous Aura, then have Venomous Aura weaken them in some way while spreading them to the party.

I would advocate something like increasing the number of attacks the Venom is active by 1 on each Venom, then having Venomous Aura reduce them by 1 when spread to other folks.

However, all durations stacking has been a bit of an indirect buff to Venoms, so that should help some.

Why is VA OP?

The effect of the venoms are really weak, also if 5 people use them together.

Black Teagan.9215:

Einlanzer.1627:

The culprit is mostly Venomous Aura, which is easily an overpowered trait when considering what the baseline is and how it affects it. What they need to do is balance Venoms around not having Venomous Aura, then have Venomous Aura weaken them in some way while spreading them to the party.

I would advocate something like increasing the number of attacks the Venom is active by 1 on each Venom, then having Venomous Aura reduce them by 1 when spread to other folks.

However, all durations stacking has been a bit of an indirect buff to Venoms, so that should help some.

Why is VA OP?

The effect of the venoms are really weak, also if 5 people use them together.

I’m not saying a Thief with VA is OP. I’m saying that the trait itself is OP because it single-handedly takes something that’s extremely lackluster on its own and makes something extremely effective.

The other Venom traits are good, but they aren’t mind-blowing. Venoms need to be made a little better at the baseline and then have the efficacy of the traits affecting them (including Venomous Aura) reduced a bit.

Einlanzer.1627:

The culprit is mostly Venomous Aura, which is easily an overpowered trait when considering what the baseline is and how it affects it. What they need to do is balance Venoms around not having Venomous Aura, then have Venomous Aura weaken them in some way while spreading them to the party.

I would advocate something like increasing the number of attacks the Venom is active by 1 on each Venom, then having Venomous Aura reduce them by 1 when spread to other folks.

However, all durations stacking has been a bit of an indirect buff to Venoms, so that should help some.

Yea I agree they should look at the venoms without VA then rebalance from their. I kind of think they have the fear that it would take the best non stealth support thief has if they scrapped the trait all together. I think the trait can stay even if you do something with the baseline venoms to make them more attractive.

I still don’t know if that would really do it. Venoms suffer from the same issue that conjures for elementalists have(though those are probably worse) in theory they seem good but then when you see the other utility skills you give up its like you would like to have them but its just not better overall than your other options.

It seems kind of odd to do but I think the only real hope for venoms(or any other class utilites that aren’t appealing at all) is to put stun breakers on them or some ability to use it defensively.

Across the classes I am most familiar with the most common utilities that are taken are ones that can be used offensively and defensively(PvP/WvW).

Across most builds those are the most common utilities and most popular ones.

ok then, buff venoms, nerf VA sources to 2 (you and a friend)
problem solved

DanH.5879:

ok then, buff venoms, nerf VA sources to 2 (you and a friend)
problem solved

Actually not a bad idea, but i think that the nerf to VA could be to apply just 1 stack of the venoms to allys (incluiding any other benefit from them) instead the full stacks. So some traiths like Residual Venoms could just be moved to lower tiers and the overall CD of all venoms get down for be more useful.

Also, no matter what, Basilisk Venom should be instant cast in PvE, in the current state is very good in theory but very bad in parctice, you can´t use it for anything important (like an boss interrup) because the 1seg casting time + (the time cast of the skill to aply it) make it too long to used. And prepare it before a fights is usseless because bosses rarely use their powerfull attacks at the begining of the fight, and the fights last for long time anyway, so the BV is just a random petrification.