Guild Wars 2

Stealth: Attacking consistently while totally 100% stealth….?
Please explain how this is balanced?

-Stealth should break(100% visible, not a slow fade in) when the stealth player does any action.
-Stealth players should have a chance to lose stealth when taking damage while stealth.
-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

Stealth lasts 2 -> 3 seconds unless traited where it lasts 3 -> 4

you can only attack once and then it breaks stealth, although due to ping and what not there is a slight delay from the attack to when the thief/mesmer appears

you take full damage from aoe or cone type attacks when your in stealth.

Stealth in this game is much weaker than most rpgs, stealth is balanced

-Stealth should break(100% visible, not a slow fade in) when the stealth player does any action.

It should when they attack, and it does. However there is currently a player culling bug that delays visibility, and it is already known and being worked on.

-Stealth players should have a chance to lose stealth when taking damage while stealth.

No, they shouldn’t. Mesmers don’t lose their phantasms when taking damage. Engineers don’t lose their kit when taking damage. Warriors don’t lose their adrenaline when taking damage… shall I continue?

-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

This I agree with, that would be perfectly fair.

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

testpig.5018:

Stealth: Attacking consistently while totally 100% stealth….?
Please explain how this is balanced?

If you did a simple forum search. The answers you seek can be found all over the forums. Your welcome!

@Bwillb, thanks for the proper answers, that make it seem like it is an issue that is being worked on.

Wolfe.3097:

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

if a stray bullet hits you, you’re gonna lose some blood on the floor

bwillb.2165:

-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

This I agree with, that would be perfectly fair.

How would this be fair? If you’re in stealth with Burning Poison or Bleeding on you (which are all extremely common), you might as well be visible.

Chakuna.6325:

bwillb.2165:

-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

This I agree with, that would be perfectly fair.

How would this be fair? If you’re in stealth with Burning Poison or Bleeding on you (which are all extremely common), you might as well be visible.

There’s more to stealth than just being hidden. You’ve got stealth attacks that you’d still be able to use and traits that work in stealth, such as regenerating health. But perhaps make it only work on direct damage hits, not condition damage. Or maybe add a skill where we can create a fake bleeding target to hide our true position…

There’s some sort of glitch that some a-holes must be exploiting to do this, about 3 people(including myself) just got killed in the eternal battlegrounds puzzle area by a thief who was constantly re-stealthing every second. I know this shouldn’t be possible because of the Revealed debuff thieves get after coming out of stealth that prevents you from stealthing for 3 seconds.

I am having major issues with this in WvW. I see a Theif constantly stealthing then unsteathing over and over until I am dead. I can’t get get a lock on in time before they do it again, and the backstab almost 1 hitter is insane. I am a hunter with a chance to 3 shot people with my Beast Master high crit damage build with my Raven, however it has to chase down my target, wait for it to stop THEN attack. The only classes I have seen with extreme over damage output for such a simple keystroke is Warrior and Theif. It is ruining the PvP aspect of GW2.

A devastating backstab is harder to set up properly than pretty much any other single skill on any class. It’s not “a simple keystroke”, it’s getting stealth, buffing up with signets and dodge-might, getting proper positioning behind the target, and hoping the target doesn’t move an inch or blind you when you go for the attack. One wrong move and you’re revealed and fairly defenseless for 3 seconds since you just wasted all of your utility skills, half your initiative, and have the 3 second reveled debuff, plus all of your traits are stacked towards that perfect backstab.

Now there may be an exploit going around where thieves can go into stealth again without the revealed buff, but I’ve never seen that and don’t know how it would be done. And if there is, that wouldn’t be a balance issue, it would be a bug to be fixed.

testpig.5018:

Stealth: Attacking consistently while totally 100% stealth….?
Please explain how this is balanced?

-Stealth should break(100% visible, not a slow fade in) when the stealth player does any action.
-Stealth players should have a chance to lose stealth when taking damage while stealth.
-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

-I do think stealth should break a bit faster then it does right now yes, but should still have a small fade in, looks good and feels good when playing.
You got to remember it’s a attack done WHILE stealthed, not done when stealth breaks. Say you’re using Sneak attack with P/P it makes sense that you’re still stealthed when using it and pop out mid attack or at the end of it. At least to me.

-If this was to be implemented that would make all stealth utility really unreliable. Would condition damage count as a stealth breaker? Also channeling abilities right now keeps tracking us in stealth if we stealth while getting hit by it. That would totaly ruin stealth.
I don’t want another “WoW vanish” that doesn’t work half the time.

-Again this would make stealth unreliable, we already take full on damage when you land your melee swing. This would also make Shadow refuge totally worthless since your movement is limited.

For every single person who is complaining about stealth being broken or too powerful: go play a thief for 40 levels then come back with greater understanding of how it works. It has strengths and weaknesses, and is in no way overpowered in it’s current form.

You just don’t understand it, and are looking for some excuse for why you got beaten by a better player. This is NOT the fault of stealth or the thief class. It is your own fault for not taking the time to understand your enemy.

So please. Stop with these posts already. Stealth is fine as is. If you think there is an exploit or actual bug going on, then use the /BUG command in-game.

(written by a thief who regularly beats thieves at their own game by knowing how and what to look for)

So just our of curiosity, how do you counter it?

Ive seen a few times in WvW what seems like (almost) permanent invisi with some serious dmg output with a grp of (seemingly) capable people being unable to take the thief down.

What about the free stealth given to massive enemy troops in WvW when the game doesn’t want to load the enemy character models?

plz nerf

So just our of curiosity, how do you counter it?
Ive seen a few times in WvW what seems like (almost) permanent invisi with some serious dmg output with a grp of (seemingly) capable people being unable to take the thief down.

There is no direct counter. Just like you can’t counter a warrior gaining adrenaline, or a mesmer from using illusions/phantasms. Stealth is as much of a class mechanic for thief as initiative is.

But what you can do is play smart, and understand how stealth works, and how a thief can use it.

The first thing you need to understand is that stealth is NOT invulnerability. The thief is still there to be hit, you just can’t see him. AOE works well. Ground effects like engineer mines, or necro wells can limit a stealthed thief’s mobility. Even melee attacks with large area effects can hit. Greatsword warriors hit my thief all the time after I stealth just by swinging around randomly.

Pets also work well against a thief who’s constantly in and out of stealth, since pet AI will auto-target and attack the thief the second he’s comes out of it. You can watch where the pet attacks or starts to move towards as a sign of where the thief is, sometimes.

Limiting the directions a thief can attack you from can also be a useful tool for predicting what direction he’ll come at you from. Although a good thief will try to attack from unexpected directions, sometimes you can limit his options with stairs, hallways, or even a wall or pillar if you place your back to it.

And any combination of those can help. But mostly if you REALLY want to learn how to fight a thief, you should try playing one for a little while. Get into the mind of a thief and learn how they think. See what kinds of problems we face, and how we like to fight.

Because just sitting there and letting yourself be defeated because you’re too focused on “OMGZ STEALTHZ!” being a gamebreaker for you is YOUR problem. You’re letting yourself get psyched out instead of staying calm and calculating.

But even then, if you play your best you might still get beaten by a thief who’s just outplaying you. That isn’t because of stealth. It’s because any highly skilled player is going to beat a lesser one with their favorite class, no matter what that class is.

So stop trying to use stealth as an excuse, and start getting better at the class you like.

Eliteseraph,

I suggest you go and check your facts on that. In PvE – which you likely are more used to then sure, this issue is a non-factor. In WvW where the rendering of a player instantly is pretty much never happening – especially under high load the ability of a thief increases tenfold.

Thiefs are able to get off at least 3 skills before they become fully visible, even to tabbing (not just visually but to your client) this has all been tested and confirmed countless times from many people who understand a thief far better than you I am sure.

There is nothing an individual can do to counter/fix this issue due to the mechanical nature of it, so in essence it is the fault of stealth that this is occuring because it is mechanically broken within the system right now due to the culling/rendering problem the client/engine has.

Do some more research before you go berating people for not knowing what they are talking about when you show the same lack of knowledge.

IomegadriveOne.5291:

I am having major issues with this in WvW. I see a Theif constantly stealthing then unsteathing over and over until I am dead. I can’t get get a lock on in time before they do it again, and the backstab almost 1 hitter is insane. I am a hunter with a chance to 3 shot people with my Beast Master high crit damage build with my Raven, however it has to chase down my target, wait for it to stop THEN attack. The only classes I have seen with extreme over damage output for such a simple keystroke is Warrior and Theif. It is ruining the PvP aspect of GW2.

So you’re a glass cannon complaining about another glass cannon class that kill you in as many hit as it takes for you to kill someone? Hypocritical much?

MrRightclick.4769:

What about the free stealth given to massive enemy troops in WvW when the game doesn’t want to load the enemy character models?

plz nerf

this is a whole other issue and happens even on high end systems… very irritating

The only change to make to stealth would be to have after it ends in combat add revealed effect since it doesn’t when it expires naturally. This will hurt some players but it would be better in the long run.

Melphina i don’t this is right.Stealth expiring naturally means that the thief didn’t benefit from his stealth skill(backstab,sneak attack e.t.c).I think ANnet in purpose made it like that: either you get nice stealth skill+ short debuff or you don’t get any.

@ZLE
True, however, if you let it expire you could technically stay stealthed “forever” if you are good at avoiding people until you have to put it up again. While its a more difficult play style it is something i see people will complain about and could lead to more nerfs than necessary for our class. I really do like the way stealth is done in this game, and though frustrating at points to fight against, giving it a revealed when it wears off in combat still allows for stacking but would give us a strong platform to tell people stealth is balanced.

I very much applaud the people who play that way it is far more difficult than many other builds and the payoffs seem very solid. It is def something i am going to look into for solo play.

Exactly, let your stealth expire and use indirect damage while in stealth only then try to put some out while out of it and enter again. Extremely funny seeing a group of people trying to hit you and running around on your caltrops.

@Melphina I have tried what you are trying to explain.
It’s kinda chain C&D when you hit like 1/2 second before the stealth expires.
While its doable on golem or npc(cuz they tend to stay at place when no target),
i find it mere impossible on human player who isn’tkitten Furthermore one hit in 3-4 sec is laughable damage,you will never kill anyone.You apply no bleads and one miss can cost yuo everything.In my opinion this cannot be more than exotic “build”,just for showing that is somehow possible to do it.

Eliteseraph,
I suggest you go and check your facts on that. In PvE – which you likely are more used to then sure, this issue is a non-factor. In WvW where the rendering of a player instantly is pretty much never happening – especially under high load the ability of a thief increases tenfold.
Thiefs are able to get off at least 3 skills before they become fully visible, even to tabbing (not just visually but to your client) this has all been tested and confirmed countless times from many people who understand a thief far better than you I am sure.
There is nothing an individual can do to counter/fix this issue due to the mechanical nature of it, so in essence it is the fault of stealth that this is occuring because it is mechanically broken within the system right now due to the culling/rendering problem the client/engine has.
Do some more research before you go berating people for not knowing what they are talking about when you show the same lack of knowledge.

And an entire zerg can roflstomp a defensive position before they’re visible, even without any sort of thief or mesmer to stealth them in the first place. It’s an issue that affects everything, and I think we can all agree that it needs to be fixed, no need to even argue about that one. Heck it’s even a pain in PvE. I logged on right outside Arah last night and the defend Arah event was happening but I couldn’t see any enemies or any friendly players. went down and got back up twice before everything loaded.

If you’re very good at timing, there’s more than 1 build where you can re-stealth almost immediately after stealthing. The “fade-in” time covers a lot of gap, so you can be off-screen for like 95% of the fight.

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

if a stray bullet hits you, you’re gonna lose some blood on the floor

ah the realism argument, in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades

magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people

etc

Not so much realism as common sense. If someone’s spraying projectiles in an area and one hits something invisible, they’re probably going to notice that. If we were going to go with a realism argument, you could just say that if someone looks directly at the thief they lose stealth. especially if they’re in spiky, colorful armor.

in this case they are the same, common sense a warrior cant swing a weapon that fast, common sense magic doesnt exist, etc…

my point was, trying to use common sense and/or realism in a game that has to be balanced is rediculous and shouldnt even be mentioned.

the game is never gonna be balanced around WvWvW so why bother bringing it up?

EasymodeX.4062:

If you’re very good at timing, there’s more than 1 build where you can re-stealth almost immediately after stealthing. The “fade-in” time covers a lot of gap, so you can be off-screen for like 95% of the fight.

So there is a bug with the fade in mechanic which allows the player to be stealth for 95% of the fight.

that might be a problem that should be looked into.

bwillb.2165:

Eliteseraph,
I suggest you go and check your facts on that. In PvE – which you likely are more used to then sure, this issue is a non-factor. In WvW where the rendering of a player instantly is pretty much never happening – especially under high load the ability of a thief increases tenfold.
Thiefs are able to get off at least 3 skills before they become fully visible, even to tabbing (not just visually but to your client) this has all been tested and confirmed countless times from many people who understand a thief far better than you I am sure.
There is nothing an individual can do to counter/fix this issue due to the mechanical nature of it, so in essence it is the fault of stealth that this is occuring because it is mechanically broken within the system right now due to the culling/rendering problem the client/engine has.
Do some more research before you go berating people for not knowing what they are talking about when you show the same lack of knowledge.

And an entire zerg can roflstomp a defensive position before they’re visible, even without any sort of thief or mesmer to stealth them in the first place. It’s an issue that affects everything, and I think we can all agree that it needs to be fixed, no need to even argue about that one. Heck it’s even a pain in PvE. I logged on right outside Arah last night and the defend Arah event was happening but I couldn’t see any enemies or any friendly players. went down and got back up twice before everything loaded.

The rendering issue is one that Anet is aware of.

This is not a problem that’s specific to stealth, and the complaint doesn’t belong in the thief forums. It’s a problem with the game engine and needs to be dealt with or complained about in the tech support area.

Also, WvW is not the only place you might fight Thieves, and thieves are not the only ones who can make their character disappear from the screen(I’m looking at you Mesmers).

But thank you Aneu.1748 for clarifying the problem in WvW, as I’m sure the OPs complaint was directed towards constructive improvement rather than just QQ about being beaten by a thief.

I was complaining about this on my ele two weeks ago. But i wasnt complaining for long before I made a theif of my own. Best class ever. I played on my two days off and got to 80.. it took me over a week on my ele.

In wvw thief is so powerful too, two-shotting people in the middle of enemy zergs, stealthing, finishing them off in stealth, then two-shotting more of them.

Wolfe.3097:

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

bwillb.2165:

Wolfe.3097:

that would not be fair! are you high? the entier point of stealth is being unseen, damage numbers above your head? you mine as well be targetable too

if a stray bullet hits you, you’re gonna lose some blood on the floor

ah the realism argument, in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades

magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people

etc

Not so much realism as common sense. If someone’s spraying projectiles in an area and one hits something invisible, they’re probably going to notice that. If we were going to go with a realism argument, you could just say that if someone looks directly at the thief they lose stealth. especially if they’re in spiky, colorful armor.

in this case they are the same, common sense a warrior cant swing a weapon that fast, common sense magic doesnt exist, etc…

my point was, trying to use common sense and/or realism in a game that has to be balanced is rediculous and shouldnt even be mentioned.

common sense dictates that magic is not real nor is the ability to be 100 precent stealthed walking around people..atleast the stealth part hasint happend yet..and idk about you but ive never seen someone shoot magic out of there hands nor people raise the dead so the guy who said "in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades
magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people" is indeed right and you just failed to show common sense.

I have also been fighting players with 100% stealth up-time where there are very few if any other players in the area. Thief attacks in stealth and never becomes visible, or holds a control point endlessly without coming out of stealth.

I am aware of the rendering issues but have only experienced this in areas with a high concentration of players.

testpig.5018:

Stealth: Attacking consistently while totally 100% stealth….?
Please explain how this is balanced?

-Stealth should break(100% visible, not a slow fade in) when the stealth player does any action.
-Stealth players should have a chance to lose stealth when taking damage while stealth.
-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

-u cant be 100% in stealth and deal damage. its a server issue i suppose.
-no kitten way. (i actually censored it myself lol)
-no.
u can just wait a few seconds for shadow refuge to end and cut him like a wet paper-towel.

thieves would be as good as dead in WvW. not that they dont get AoE’d by accident as it is.

Trikittenistos.3046:

testpig.5018:

-Attacking a stealth player, should still display the damage in the area that the stealth player was hit in.

-no.

It already does that.

common sense dictates that magic is not real nor is the ability to be 100 precent stealthed walking around people..atleast the stealth part hasint happend yet..and idk about you but ive never seen someone shoot magic out of there hands nor people raise the dead so the guy who said "in that case a warrior cannot swing a greatsword as fast as 100 blades
magic isnt real therefore necros/elementals shouldnt exist outright

my skill headshot should probably oneshot people" is indeed right and you just failed to show common sense.

do you enjoy ignoring my replies and continuing on as if you heard me say something else?

ill keep it short this time

common sense/realism in a fantasy game that tries to have balanced/competitive pvp is absolutly stupid. the common sense and realism will repeatedly interfere with the balance aspects.

Wolfe’s point is a good one. don’t misinterpet him.

he is saying that good, fun, balanced game mechanics take precedence over other concerns (such as “lore”, or some notion of fantasy realism). he is also saying that WvW is not balanced, which is true. PvE and sPvP are balanced (or should be anyway).

if there are balance issues related to Stealth examine how they effect PvE and sPvP. balancing for WvW is totally impossible and isn’t even attempted by ArenaNet anyway.

I dont see any reason to reveal thieves when they take damage considering how short stealth lasts. I’ve had several times where a thief tried to pop stealth to escape but I kept swinging anyway and they came out of stealth in the downed state. Some of the longer duration stealths can be anoying but most of the time you can predict where the thief is somewhat reliably and still hit them. I still find the whole shadow refuge thing funny considering how many folks dont realize its limitation, AOE the refuge, you’ve got 10s to kill them before they can run without revealing themselves, plenty of time to down them.