Guild Wars 2

Yolo Swaggins recently posted informing people about backstab and why it’s not as bad as they make it out to be. I’m here today to do the same with stealth. Hopefully I can give you all a different mindset to fighting and thinking about stealth on not only thief but any class that utilizes stealth. Wall of text incoming please do not post a reply unless you have read everything put here so you do not get the wrong idea about what I’m saying. Let’s begin:

1) The first thing we need to tackle is people’s idea that thief stealth (or stealth in general) is op.
The first thing I will say is flat out stealth is not op and here’s why:
Think of it this way: you get a thief low and he retreats to stealth to heal and reset a bit, who has the advantage? The quick answer would be to say the thief but the truth of the matter is you are the one with the advantages when a thief is in stealth. Yes he is healing in stealth, but while he’s doing that you can be healing too so that shouldn’t be a point of arguing stealth is op. You can do whatever the thief is doing in stealth outside of it. And while the thief cannot hit you unless he wants to get revealed and risk being bursted, you can hit him all you want and even kill him while he can’t touch you without exposing himself to more burst. How do you hit him, you can use aoe or simply auto attack and randomly turn around at times to significantly lessen the chances of the thief landing a clean backstab. Remember, the thief relies completely on position when he is stealthed to set up his burst, make it harder for him to position properly and you already have the ability to cut his burst in half just because you’re moving.

2) Second thing that comes up is their ability to burst people down really quick using a good opening combo with backstab while stealthed because you have no idea they are there.
Easy fix here is when in a wvw or pvp setting keep an eye on your surroundings. set a keybind to look behind you while you run forward so you can see when a thief is following you. Constantly be panning around to make sure they don’t get the jump on you. In addition, the thief’ potential to burst a target down in less than 3 seconds also means he is vulnerable to the same thing if he misses his initial burst. If you see a thief looking like he’s gonna burst you need to have some defensive skills you can use to either cc him so he cannot burst you or just use them to soak up his burst without dying and then burst him right away. If someone has the ability to burst you down in 2 seconds it means you can do the same to them. Use that knowledge when fighting a thief and you should be able to come out on top because if you play right stealth won’t help their burst because you’ll be ready to counter it because you saw them and prepared accordingly instead of giving up and whining on the forums.

3) People seem to have created the idea that thief has perma vade and perma stealth all in one build, this is absolutely ridiculous.
Thief is really limited to one defense in each build. They either use evades to survive or they use stealth. There are plenty of counters to each one but you need to figure out which ones to use in which situation. The best way to do that is research thief and learn what each of their specs do and how they are normally played. Counter accordingly. Stealth is not op if you know how to fight it so when a thief runs d/p or d/d you need to learn the signs that they are gonna stealth and either dodge the CnD or interrupt the combo. If you do that they lose a ton of initiative and either need to blow a defensive cooldown or you get to kill them.

General stealth fighting tips and how to deal with it:
Thieves who rely on stealth also rely very heavily on initiative and, in the case of an offhand dagger, rely on stealth targets. Learning the telegraphing of the skills or the combos can significantly increase your chances of winning the fight. Even with stealth, a thief with no initiative is a dead thief and with no targets to stealth on the thief is easily killed through a smart burst. Biggest thing to remember is that you have the advantage while the thief is in stealth. It’s a mindgame that tends to screw most people over because it forces them to over react and blow all their defensive CD’s while they prepare for a backstab then when they are left defenseless, the thief moves in for the kill. Just learn to manage cooldowns effectively and to remain calm in a situation where you fight a stealthed thief and you will be fine. Stealth will no longer feel like it is OP and you will realize that you have an easier time playing this game.

Thanks for your time and if I left something out or you have questions please let me know and I’ll do my best to answer them.

it is indeed not the stealth that makes the thief a bugger but their mobility.
A good thief can stay out of range indefinately even without stealth and teleport in and out for big burst damage and all that without cooldowns.

But if it was just that it wouldn’t be so annoying.

What is most annoying is a thief/mesmer combination. Especially when it is a PU mesmer.

They do not only teleport, they stealth, do huge damage and basically I haven’t been able to see all that they can do because they kill me in seconds.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

it is indeed not the stealth that makes the thief a bugger but their mobility.
A good thief can stay out of range indefinately even without stealth and teleport in and out for big burst damage and all that without cooldowns.

But if it was just that it wouldn’t be so annoying.

What is most annoying is a thief/mesmer combination. Especially when it is a PU mesmer.

They do not only teleport, they stealth, do huge damage and basically I haven’t been able to see all that they can do because they kill me in seconds.

Go read about the profession then. Every class has it’s weakness, learn them and make it your advantage.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

it is indeed not the stealth that makes the thief a bugger but their mobility.
A good thief can stay out of range indefinately even without stealth and teleport in and out for big burst damage and all that without cooldowns.

But if it was just that it wouldn’t be so annoying.

What is most annoying is a thief/mesmer combination. Especially when it is a PU mesmer.

They do not only teleport, they stealth, do huge damage and basically I haven’t been able to see all that they can do because they kill me in seconds.

So… About which kind of build you are talking here exactly? stealth every build has access to stealth (more or less) and mobility (more or less). D/D has easier access to stealth and less costly when you are constantly able to land you C&D —→ blind, block, dodge and 6 initiative are gone for nothing. And D/D has together with P/P the worst moblitity of all weapon sets. D/P and P/D have more mobility. D/P with the shadowshot and 5+2-combo, and P/D with the 3 and kiting-ability becouse being a ranged setup. the highest mobilty has S/D which normally plays with a lot less stealth (played once S/D 20606, whcih was nice, but not really usefull in pvp. in that case its not that mobil like S/D acro). For stealth you need either land you C&D or use shadow refuge. The told about the Pros and Cons of C&D above (lower initiative than the 5+2 combo of D/P, but it depends how good you are with it) and shadow refuge grants a lot of stealth but is like shouting the enemy to thow everything into that circle with a house. Mesmer learned alot and use their GS 5, warriors the CCs and damage, etc.
So now you think that its the mobility that make thiefs “annoying”? Well, they are thiefs, what do you expect? That they come along to ask about your money and add a “please” at the end?
Beside that mobility is arguable the only reason thiefs have their place in pvp… You really want to take that? Its like to take the support a guard have access to and makes him so good to make the bunker. Just that you can paly a guard as damage dealer, too.
You know that builds using acrobatic were treated as useless because af the lack of burst and power it provided? The reason we have S/D acrobatic today are because of the sigills of air/fire whcih provide the needed burst and rune of strength or pack which provide more damage. And every single on of that things were demanded to nerf them. That is were your burst damage comes from…
ANd that about “all that without cooldowns”…
You know that every single thing we do from our weaponset, from 2-5 gives as kind of a global cooldown on both sets? If I blow all my iniciative with the first one I can´t just swap to the other one and get new initiative (unless traited, then 3) we have 12 Initiative untraited and some skills use half of that. Its like every skill add seconds to a big cooldown that goes down a little bit with time or traited skills to give some back for example treited steal (class mechanice) which gives 2 back (nerfed btw) —> 1 initiatve every 1,33sec
Initiative
And you cant use 2 on sword to go in and out all the time and expect to win the fight, we have to use it as one of hour only reliable condition removal. And for you information, the port on sword was nerfed a long time ago… It was once insta-cast and stunbreaker, think about how good you have it today :P

Another great post! Personally I’ve been in love with stealth mechanics ever since I played Star Wars Battlefront 2. So maybe I’m a bit biased. But I’ve never seen anything wrong with stealth. Yeah, it can be frustrating when I hop on my Ele and thieves just keep coming in, failing, and pulling out again and there’s nothing I can do about it. But that’s just the way it goes.

And from a thief perspective, stealth is certainly not op. Your stealth is literally on a timer. All the enemy has to do is count and then counter. And if you drop shadow refuge to gain more than a few seconds, it’s amazing how many enemies appear literally out of nowhere to aoe your shadow refuge. lol

My best tip when you see a thief on the enemy team in PvP:

If you can’t see the enemy thief on the mini map, expect him to be where you are, always.

And if you see a thief stealth near you with dagger main-hand. Don’t stand still or run off in one direction! Move around – a lot! I am still surprised at the number of times I see people just stop whatever they’re doing when I enter stealth. They’re seriously just giving up right there…

I actually agree with all of your points, except your first one. I believe thief DOES have the advantage while in stealth, because a) I cannot see what they are doing, and b) they CAN see what CDs I have popped, in order to prepare for the next fight, and c) I dont even know if they are there anymore. I personally feel that the fact that a thief can retreat into stealth and then run away, and apply pressure without even being there, is very overwhelming. Especially roaming in wvw with my friends, I feel we are inevitably hunted by a thief (which is your right and what you SHOULD be doing!) without the ability to confront our attacker because of the large expanse of space, and easy access to stealthed mobility. I will come out and say that my experience on thief is limited to a level 37 Labyrinth farmed char- but these are the experiences I have had on ALL the classes I play.

I hope I have maintained the friendly discussion atmosphere that is on this thread so far

I think most people’s problem with stealth really stems from the shadow arts tree and its ability in modes like wvw to heal to full hp very quickly with 0 counter play to it. This trait really should be changed to something that rewards the thief for smart play rather than sucking, getting bopped and stealthing away to then try to re engage 5 seconds later at full hp. As for spvp people just need to stop complaining about stealth lol :P.

Coronit.9432:

And D/D has together with P/P the worst moblitity of all weapon sets.

That is so wrong. D/D has mobility that rivals that of the shortbow and in turn the mobility of d/p, let me brake it down:
heartseeker costs 3 ini and has a range of 450 units.
Infiltrator’s arrow costs 6 ini and has a range of 900 units.
So 2 heartseekers take you as far as 1 i.arrow, BUT they are also affected by swiftness so that 450 range becomes 600. And so 2 heartseekers can move you 1200 units for the same cost as 1 i.arrow.
Now the movement on h.seeker goes both ways and if you have cripple or chill it becomes much worst that i.arrow.
Also keep in mind that you have to angle the camera the correct way so that you don’t stop half way through the leap(don’t pan in down like you do when you stack stealth with black powder).
Ofcourse the disadvantage h.seeker has, in comparison to infiltrator’s strike/ arrow, is that it is not a instant teleport (this is a non issue with d/p since you have shadow shot), but it makes up for it because you can use it whenever you like to close distance or create it (since it has not mechanic like infiltrator’s return and is 3 initiative, thus more affordable for chasing/escaping).

On a side note p/d has next to no chasing power seeing how shadow strike is restricted to making distance, not closing it and no land speed (in my eyes it is the second worst set for mobility after p/p).

Well written op, now we can hope the qq-ers actually reed it, and not just constantly cry about teefs and request nerfs…
one can only hope.

foste.3098:

On a side note p/d has next to no chasing power seeing how shadow strike is restricted to making distance, not closing it and no land speed (in my eyes it is the second worst set for mobility after p/p).

Hey, it got that 1s immobilise and a whole THREE SECONDS of cripple on dancing dagger ;-)

RashanDale.3609:

foste.3098:

On a side note p/d has next to no chasing power seeing how shadow strike is restricted to making distance, not closing it and no land speed (in my eyes it is the second worst set for mobility after p/p).

Hey, it got that 1s immobilise and a whole THREE SECONDS of cripple on dancing dagger ;-)

Hey that’s so true!
THREE kittenING SECONDS (in case the dancing dagger hits and doesnt get distraced by the beautiful weather or decides to go “my people need me [in space]”)

well d/d in fight mobility is pretty terrible since the distance of hs gets shortened if you have crip or chill on you :P

anything with dagger offhand and a healing skill has access to stealth. any thief with a shortbow has as great a mobility as initiative can carry them.
Thief has the most access to blinds too with a pistol off-hand. D/P also has access to stealth and is still quite mobile. Swiftness and might on dodge plus teleport to enemy with signet or sword or steal or jump towards enemy with dagger 2 or 3.

Thieves have a plethera of gap-closers that will nullify any attempt you do at moving around to avoid damage.

Swimsasa Stoon.8936:

anything with dagger offhand and a healing skill has access to stealth. any thief with a shortbow has as great a mobility as initiative can carry them.
Thief has the most access to blinds too with a pistol off-hand. D/P also has access to stealth and is still quite mobile. Swiftness and might on dodge plus teleport to enemy with signet or sword or steal or jump towards enemy with dagger 2 or 3.

Thieves have a plethera of gap-closers that will nullify any attempt you do at moving around to avoid damage.

I agree that D/P has almost everything. Thats why its meta right now and better than S/D. But what you miss here is the fact that the stealth access costs a lt of initative. When you use blackpowder and you get stunned while using heartseeker through it, you wasted ! 9 Initiative ! for a little bit of blind. You have to reset at that point by escaping with shortbow (probelm here because not having a lot of initiative —→ some kind of cooldown) shadowstep or shadow refuge. Shadowstep is 1200 max range what isn´t that much when there is someone with gapcloser or range weapon nearby and refuge is a magic-AOE-creator. Good thiefs can handle that situations, how it should be, bad ones are a snack at that point.
Swiftness and might on dodge isnt something D/P user have access normally, they use DA, CS, SA and trickery, but almost never acrobatic. And even S/D-player are not using power of inertia always.
Healing skill? You mean Hide in Shadows? In PvP its rarely used because of the casting time, far to easy to interrupt it.
Besides that, yeah, we have blinds, other classes have a lot o blocks, invuln or healing. Even eles and guards have access to blinds, not that much, but its there. Its not like only thiefs have mobility, right? A warrior can outrun me in wvw all day and my only chance to get him is to throw everything I have to reach him and then I still have to beat him ^^
Eles have decent mobility, rangers with evades from S/D, even ingis are good roamers in pvp and wvw.

@ tboneking:
I understand exactly why you feel like that and you have good reason too but my big point to this was the fact that you said they “apply pressure without being there”. That was a very good point and I’m glad you brought it up. My counter statement is: They apply pressure only if you allow them too. If they only gained stealth with a CnD count to 2 and dodge or block. If it’s SR let your CD’s reset because if you have a stun break off CD and they try to Basilisk venom you and burst you can break it and dodge therefore avoiding burst. It can also go to something I said later in my post which I believe was along the lines of “Because a thief relies on positioning, moving around and turning randomly in a fight where the thief is stealthed gives you a high chance to cut their burst in half without blowing any defensive cool downs.” Most thieves will only go for the backstab once they are behind you, use that to your advantage and make the thief run out of stealth then in the time they are revealed try to cc them and burst as best as you can. The reason I believe you have the advantage in stealth is because the thief has so many factors and variables he has to work with to have his fight be successful while we, when you think about it, only have a few things to worry about. You will have the advantage while a thief is n stealth if you don’t let their mind games beat you. If you panic, then the thief wins.

Hope I helped with continuing the discussion. If you have any more input I’d really like to hear it

OP made another "blah-blah I’m not IMBA" thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create "5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read" thread - would be interesting to read his excuses.

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

lol what a troll
that guy is the problem in gw2 that thieve have to deal with…

“Everyone knows” best argument ever bro! love it!

In 1v2 well youre talking about WvW and SA now and about 2 players that you probably outskill by quite a bit – because if you know how to counter stealth you shouln have any problems in 2v1 lol

5k range gap closer? yeah lets see… shadowstep (1200) + initiative signet (900) + infiltrator’s strike (was 600 right? or 900?) + steal (900 or 1500 if traited for which no one does) = 4300 and you trait for the steal
So we are talking about S/D that traits for Long Reach (no one does that) and who is on full CD (apart from SR which is crap in a 1v1 with magic AoE*) after that… Shouldnt be too easy to beat eh?

Also wanna point out, once youre talking about a SA Build which probably utilizes D/D or D/P and once you talk about S/D (or S/P) with likely no SA at all…

*talking about a build without SA rn and either
- youre forced to use SR in melee which is a pain
- your opp has quite a bit of AoE (on SR) and/or Condis (on you)

Tarkan.5609:

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

lol what a troll
that guy is the problem in gw2 that thieve have to deal with…

“Everyone knows” best argument ever bro! love it!

In 1v2 well youre talking about WvW and SA now and about 2 players that you probably outskill by quite a bit – because if you know how to counter stealth you shouln have any problems in 2v1 lol

5k range gap closer? yeah lets see… shadowstep (1200) + initiative signet (900) + infiltrator’s strike (was 600 right? or 900?) + steal (900 or 1500 if traited for which no one does) = 4300 and you trait for the steal
So we are talking about S/D that traits for Long Reach (no one does that) and who is on full CD (apart from SR which is crap in a 1v1 with magic AoE*) after that… Shouldnt be too easy to beat eh?

Also wanna point out, once youre talking about a SA Build which probably utilizes D/D or D/P and once you talk about S/D (or S/P) with likely no SA at all…

*talking about a build without SA rn and either
- youre forced to use SR in melee which is a pain
- your opp has quite a bit of AoE (on SR) and/or Condis (on you)

Again lie and excuses.
Shortbow#5 – who need this stupid skill, right?

Dunno who thought it’d be a good idea to burn that many gap closes for such a long engage range lol.

PU mesmer, P/D dire thief, engineers as a class, and terrormancers are extremely potent in 1v1’s. It depends largely on the build and matchup. One can’t assume thieves are the best 1v1’ers as a class. And depending on the format, they actually just aren’t even good at 1v1.

SilverWF.4789:

Tarkan.5609:

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

lol what a troll
that guy is the problem in gw2 that thieve have to deal with…

“Everyone knows” best argument ever bro! love it!

In 1v2 well youre talking about WvW and SA now and about 2 players that you probably outskill by quite a bit – because if you know how to counter stealth you shouln have any problems in 2v1 lol

5k range gap closer? yeah lets see… shadowstep (1200) + initiative signet (900) + infiltrator’s strike (was 600 right? or 900?) + steal (900 or 1500 if traited for which no one does) = 4300 and you trait for the steal
So we are talking about S/D that traits for Long Reach (no one does that) and who is on full CD (apart from SR which is crap in a 1v1 with magic AoE*) after that… Shouldnt be too easy to beat eh?

Also wanna point out, once youre talking about a SA Build which probably utilizes D/D or D/P and once you talk about S/D (or S/P) with likely no SA at all…

*talking about a build without SA rn and either
- youre forced to use SR in melee which is a pain
- your opp has quite a bit of AoE (on SR) and/or Condis (on you)

Again lie and excuses.
Shortbow#5 – who need this stupid skill, right?

I am sorry you tripped on a shadow trap and scraped your knee m8.

Seriously, what are the odds.

Ario.8964:

Yolo Swaggins recently posted informing people about backstab and why it’s not as bad as they make it out to be. I’m here today to do the same with stealth. Hopefully I can give you all a different mindset to fighting and thinking about stealth on not only thief but any class that utilizes stealth. Wall of text incoming please do not post a reply unless you have read everything put here so you do not get the wrong idea about what I’m saying. Let’s begin:

1) The first thing we need to tackle is people’s idea that thief stealth (or stealth in general) is op.
The first thing I will say is flat out stealth is not op and here’s why:
Think of it this way: you get a thief low and he retreats to stealth to heal and reset a bit, who has the advantage? The quick answer would be to say the thief but the truth of the matter is you are the one with the advantages when a thief is in stealth. Yes he is healing in stealth, but while he’s doing that you can be healing too so that shouldn’t be a point of arguing stealth is op. You can do whatever the thief is doing in stealth outside of it.

Stopped reading right there … you might consider a career as spin-doctor for the Mafia.

(a) When a thief stealthes all NPCs stop attackign him (but for the oh-so-few channelled attacks). So if a thief fights you with NPCs around and goes to stealth the NPCs will concentrate on me as the thief is no longer available. That’s just such a minor issue when you are fighting with, say, 10 Skales around you as in Golanta.

(b) Merely going to stealth will heal the thief if traited so. All other classes – unless they have health regen – must use a heal skill which has a cooldown and can be interrupted by the thief because he can see you using the telltale healing skill animation. A thief, though, has multiple ways to enter stealth (unless runing S/P or P/P) and has a healing skill. The same as everyone … yeah, sure …

© Thieves, if traited so, can remove conditions when entering stealth. Now let’s remember how often a thief can stealth …

I am with you that stealth is not overpowered – but thieves are, because they have (a) the highest mobility, (b) one of the highest burst damage chains, © initiative rather than cooldown and (d) stealth available via multiple skills

It’s the combination that makes thieves ridiculously unbalanced. I’ll call them balanced when a thief will not engage in a 3:1 situation because he or she is pretty sure he or she will come out winner.

My thief was my 2nd char I leveled to 80 … but I wouldn’t cry if they reworked that class completely … it’s just broken.

SilverWF.4789:

Tarkan.5609:

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

lol what a troll
that guy is the problem in gw2 that thieve have to deal with…

“Everyone knows” best argument ever bro! love it!

*Cut

Again lie and excuses.
Shortbow#5 – who need this stupid skill, right?

Instant you said
So don’t call me lieer because i thought you knew what instant is

Ario.8964:

@ tboneking:
I understand exactly why you feel like that and you have good reason too but my big point to this was the fact that you said they “apply pressure without being there”. That was a very good point and I’m glad you brought it up. My counter statement is: They apply pressure only if you allow them too. If they only gained stealth with a CnD count to 2 and dodge or block. If it’s SR let your CD’s reset because if you have a stun break off CD and they try to Basilisk venom you and burst you can break it and dodge therefore avoiding burst. It can also go to something I said later in my post which I believe was along the lines of “Because a thief relies on positioning, moving around and turning randomly in a fight where the thief is stealthed gives you a high chance to cut their burst in half without blowing any defensive cool downs.” Most thieves will only go for the backstab once they are behind you, use that to your advantage and make the thief run out of stealth then in the time they are revealed try to cc them and burst as best as you can. The reason I believe you have the advantage in stealth is because the thief has so many factors and variables he has to work with to have his fight be successful while we, when you think about it, only have a few things to worry about. You will have the advantage while a thief is n stealth if you don’t let their mind games beat you. If you panic, then the thief wins.

Hope I helped with continuing the discussion. If you have any more input I’d really like to hear it

Look, I have this gun and you don’t so you think you are disadvantaged but, in reality, it is me who is disadvantaged! See – I only have this tiny little bullet and you’re such a small target compared to the 360° environment … so I’d actually be surprised if – against all odds – I’d actually manage to hit you with that bullet – or – you did panic and do something wrong.

Right … another aspirant for the spin-doctoring 101 silver sward.

HtFde.3856:

Ario.8964:

Yolo Swaggins recently posted informing people about backstab and why it’s not as bad as they make it out to be. I’m here today to do the same with stealth. Hopefully I can give you all a different mindset to fighting and thinking about stealth on not only thief but any class that utilizes stealth. Wall of text incoming please do not post a reply unless you have read everything put here so you do not get the wrong idea about what I’m saying. Let’s begin:

1) The first thing we need to tackle is people’s idea that thief stealth (or stealth in general) is op.
The first thing I will say is flat out stealth is not op and here’s why:
Think of it this way: you get a thief low and he retreats to stealth to heal and reset a bit, who has the advantage? The quick answer would be to say the thief but the truth of the matter is you are the one with the advantages when a thief is in stealth. Yes he is healing in stealth, but while he’s doing that you can be healing too so that shouldn’t be a point of arguing stealth is op. You can do whatever the thief is doing in stealth outside of it.

Stopped reading right there … you might consider a career as spin-doctor for the Mafia.

(a) When a thief stealthes all NPCs stop attackign him (but for the oh-so-few channelled attacks). So if a thief fights you with NPCs around and goes to stealth the NPCs will concentrate on me as the thief is no longer available. That’s just such a minor issue when you are fighting with, say, 10 Skales around you as in Golanta.

(b) Merely going to stealth will heal the thief if traited so. All other classes – unless they have health regen – must use a heal skill which has a cooldown and can be interrupted by the thief because he can see you using the telltale healing skill animation. A thief, though, has multiple ways to enter stealth (unless runing S/P or P/P) and has a healing skill. The same as everyone … yeah, sure …

© Thieves, if traited so, can remove conditions when entering stealth. Now let’s remember how often a thief can stealth …

I am with you that stealth is not overpowered – but thieves are, because they have (a) the highest mobility, (b) one of the highest burst damage chains, © initiative rather than cooldown and (d) stealth available via multiple skills

It’s the combination that makes thieves ridiculously unbalanced. I’ll call them balanced when a thief will not engage in a 3:1 situation because he or she is pretty sure he or she will come out winner.

My thief was my 2nd char I leveled to 80 … but I wouldn’t cry if they reworked that class completely … it’s just broken.

A few things:

Many classes can trait to have secondary healing on skills or mechanics (meditations, mantras, full adrenaline, equipped kits, water attunement, life siphoning, and pet skill healing just to name all other classes)

Many classes can trait for passive condition removal without having to enter stealth.

Initiative is a global cooldown among all skills across both weapons

Is that a 3v1 in Unranked/Ranked PvP where people are actually sorted based on their approximate level of skill or 3v1 in open WvW where a thief can hit a group of people who just hit 80 on their first character.

I’ll give you high burst and mobility, but at the cost of defensive blocks and boons (limited brawler options).

@HtFde
I’m not sure you completely understood what I was saying, again why you have to read EVERYTHING before you post because you missed quite a few critical points I made. There’s this thing called AOE you should try it as nobody should be stupid enough to think that if they spam a ranged weapons AA that they’ll actually hit something. You should know enough to figure out that the AA trick applies to melee sets. I also said you have the advantage because you can hit him without debuffing yourself in any way while he can’t hit you without gaining revealed. That coupled with the fact that movement throws off positioning and allows you to cut out a great chunk of their burst is enough to give you an advantage, sure he can run away but then you aren’t dead so I think that’s a pretty good thing. And if you aren’t packing any sort of small regen skill into your build for roaming then you’re doing it wrong. You can’t expect to only need a heal skill and be set for any sort of fight. Building to cover a lack of sustain might be your solution in that situation (also why I said be smart with your cooldowns). Finally, regarding npc’s you can kite the thief into an area more beneficial to you. Be smart about your engagements and think then maybe you won’t have so many issues with npc’s being used as stealth targets. Heck you can even use them to your advantage. If the thief is stealthing off of npc’s then AoE the npc’s. That at least gives you a pretty good idea of where he will be hanging around

I believe that addressed all of your points. Let me know if you have more, I’ll be happy to discuss them with you

About your 3 point

no, actually, s/d build have both evade and stealth with SR and CnD it’s pretty high up time.

While D/p, it’s more of stealth + blind spam as defensive mechanics instead of stealth alone.

Ario.8964:

@HtFde
There’s this thing called AOE you should try it as nobody should be stupid enough to think that if they spam a ranged weapons AA that they’ll actually hit something. […] I also said you have the advantage because you can hit him without debuffing yourself in any way while he can’t hit you without gaining revealed. That coupled with the fact that movement throws off positioning and allows you to cut out a great chunk of their burst is enough to give you an advantage, sure he can run away but then you aren’t dead so I think that’s a pretty good thing. And if you aren’t packing any sort of small regen skill into your build for roaming then you’re doing it wrong. […] Finally, regarding npc’s you can kite the thief into an area more beneficial to you. […]

I believe that addressed all of your points. Let me know if you have more, I’ll be happy to discuss them with you

(a) Not talking sPvP – talking WvW here

(b) Regen << Healing – especially vs. high burst. Regen is nice at the edge of a zerg fight when you can disengage and heal via regen but when being focused you need heal, not regen. So nice that stealing can be used for even more health gain, hm? ^^

© Manually using your 1 skill works with some classes and weapons and it’s always a sight I can’t stop laughing when playing my thief when you have 4 people swing their weapons at location where I am not. A ranger on a bow can’t use any skill but LB 5 or SB 2 “blindly” and even a badly hurt thief will laugh at LB 5. AoE … might be effective but then we get the cooldown … do you really want to use a skill that may have 10+ seconds cooldown blindly? If you’re fast and see sanctuary pop up it’s a safe bet you will hit – but most of the time you need a bit of time to turn and aim

(d) Revealed is still bugged. I did a few tests with a friend at EoTM where we could “join”. I always vanished from his screen when I stealthed +/- a few tenth of seconds. But I always turned up a lot later than I got visible on my screen. The black cloud did render sometimes but that’s not very obvious. You can actually target even when the thief is not rendering but – if there are NPCs around – that’s next to impossible by using target swapping since nearest target will not aways be he thief but a rather cuddly NPC that likes to see if players taste as well as reported.

Most fights against thieves are either burst and dead fights where the thief joins a fight in process makes use of you no longer being at full health and then drops the last 3/4 of your life in one go or it’s a war of attrition where the thief will get close hit, retreat heal and reattack. Once you’re at 50% health you’re as good as dead. And since most classes do not have the ability to outheal the burst damage this won’t take long.

Sole chance is that the thief walks into a trap or an attack and buys the farm but that’s not something you can actually plan – it’s something that happens. And about the only reliable way to kill thieves – “Sic’em” + LB 2 from a ranger – is what most thieves want to see nerfed ….

My kill ratio when going WvW on a thief is 10+ wins vs 1 lost fight and that MUCH higher than I can achieve with any other class. Thief is also the only class I can and will go 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 with (because I know that if things go wrong I can ruuuuuuun).

And the ability (seems to work again) to stealth by hitting doors and walls makes a thief a pest in a tower because it’s not too difficult to solo a tower with a thief and takes a bit of practise to solo a keep (though you need to retrait and rearm to do that) – so you want to flush them out (especially if there’s a dead mesmer in the structure too). I managed to stay hidden in Jerrifer’s for 15+ minutes with up to 10 people hunting me down … not overpowered … no …

Keep perma stealth but remove gap closers or burst damage
Keep gap closers and burst damage but do away with perma stealth

And we haven’t even started talking about the ability to grant stealth to others. Ever been up against 2 thieves + 1 mesmer? Lots of fun … usually takes 10 to 20 people to eradicate the team – depending on how many NPCs are around that interfere with targetting and how “open” the battlefield is. Now take, say, 3 guardians or two warriors and a necro … how many would you need to flush them out? Less than 10, for sure …

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

I suggest you make a thread on why we should even bother listening to you.
Title it:
QQ haters read

Try to put some thought into it… I want to be entertained.

@HtFde (btw, so glad you responded. I am really enjoying being able to debate this stuff with someone who doesn’t spam troll responses)

Figured we were talking wvw the whole time kitten stealth in pvp is not really ever used (save hotjoin matches) AoE still applies in wvw for either use around yourself to make it dangerous for a thief to engage with a backstab or use of AoE over your enemies’ stealth targets. The trick is to not use it blindly, learn how the enemy spec plays and you should be able to predict when it will be a good time to use AoE.

The point of bringing up the regen for me was to show that you don’t really need to pop a heal skill to just get some hp back while the thief sits in stealth. I realize that straight up healing will always be a better result but at the same time if you can get health back without blowing your heal you have a much better chance against the thief. And I figured we were discussing small scale fights, not large zerg fests so I didn’t bring up the zerg focus factor. Sure steal can heal but it also inflicts damage so if they use it while in stealth they are revealed. But yes it does heal so I will give the high healing on thief point to you.

Manually using your 1 skill on a melee weapon still gives you a chance of hitting the thief which is better than no chance at all. There will never be a perfect solution to that but we make due with what we have and really when you play it right it will come in handy more often then not.

If revealed is bugged then that’s a fix anet has to do. Has nothing with stealth being OP just means anet has to start fixing some bugs to ensure that revealed starts working as intended.

Regarding perma stealth: with the normal specs being run perma stealth is no longer achievable. Yes you can chain CnD but that is expensive and without the right trait spread which frankly sacrifices more than it’s worth you will eventually run out of initiative and be left a sitting duck with no way to react to a situation.

The wins in wvw are kinda skewed data because you can’t ensure that those players were on an equal skill level as you. They could have been zerglings who happened to think that they could take you on.

Of course warriors and guards can’t stealth because that would be silly, their defenses rely on things other than stealth whereas a Mesmer and thief combinations is going to be very stealth heavy. That’s just the way it is, I’m not entirely sure I can argue with that point though because I agree it is highly obnoxious to try to hunt down 2 thieves and a mes rotating stealth in a group. At the same time though, if 10+ people are there the small group shouldn’t really kill anyone if they are paying attention so it’s more just trolling then it is being overpowered. Though that may just be a different view on the situation.

Zero Day.2594:

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another "blah-blah I’m not IMBA" thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create "5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read" thread - would be interesting to read his excuses.

I suggest you make a thread on why we should even bother listening to you.
Title it:
QQ haters read

Try to put some thought into it... I want to be entertained.

Lol, made my day.
I can say a lot, even more than previous writer, but:
a) I’m not a native English speaker, so it will be not easy to me - write waaaaalls of text.
b) I don’t see any sense here, since I’m nearly at 100% agree with HtFde.3856
c) Seems like ppl from some countries pretty like to debate some pretty obvious things - something that must not be debated. This is wasting of a time.
d) I wouldn’t be happier if able to prove another not_a_troll some obvious things. This is not a meaning of my life.

Thieves now - OP. At least in the WvW. Crazy high uptime of stealth + Pretty easy to pop stealth + Incredible mobility + Crazy high burst AND sustained + Non-cooldowns mechanic - all of this makes IMBA from thieves. And in some builds (in fact: in most of builds) add here High selfheal + Easy selfcleanse from conditions + Tons of evades.

Now thieves are counter for most of another classes and builds:
Direct damage dealers - you can’t hit something that you can’t see and take in target
Condition specs - your conditions will be cleansed before they can do their job.
Basically, only 1 counter possible: fast, non-target, low-cooldown, AOE, huge and direct damage with non-cleansable controls (stun, daze, etc) - like hammer warriors. And even here thieves have advantage, because they (and only they!) are able just to spam blindness, AOE-blindness!
...
Oh God, just stop it. This is meaningless. This game is 2 years old, all of this stuff was discussed year ago, but anyway every week we have another genius, popped from nowhere, with "another" (but the same) cool story about his vision of balance "classname - nerf!" or "classname - buff!", proved with "another" (readied a tons of times already) wall of text, full of lie, double dealing and/or just moaning.

Are we talking about 2 Thiefs/1 Mesmer that want to fight or trolling the people? Everyone can troll in some way and if they want to fight you never need 10-20 people, you need around 3 that can play, thats it…

Classes having problems to outheal burstdamage? Have you never seen an ele going from 5% fulllive, a guardian healing with meditations, an ingi doing his healcombo or a ranger using his 8k heal? Withdraw is used by most thieves and is very vulnerable to poison, 4500 heal going to 3000k isn´t fun. And are you really crying about Mug having heal? you know that ONE meditaton or shout does the same when traited?

“Keep perma stealth but remove gap closers or burst damage
Keep gap closers and burst damage but do away with perma stealth”

Ok, then let guards keep their healing but remove blocks or burstdamage (medi-guard here)
Keep blocks but remove burstdamage or healing…

Or let ele keep burstdamage but remove boons o invuln/blocks

If you think about it you should realize demanding to remove a big part of a class doesn´t work without breaking it.

What do you actually want, dozens thief able to keep at your butt but hitting like a wet noodle?

@SilverWF.4789
Right, it was discussed over and over and over and it should be clear now that there isn´t a specc out there that can have ALL the things you described.
How much I agree that D/P-SA is something that shouldn´t be (saw a duel between a D/P-SA user against a condi-ingi today, never saw such a boring one) and there have something to happen, you kind of need SA for a more balanced D/D-build to work.
and thieves counter to most classes? Ele have good chances, guards have them, warris have them, ingis have them, necro can deal a ton of damage to down people (AOE), rapid fire tracks through stealth, etc etc…

For Guild-raids I use D/P 26006, very high damage and decent survivability through mobility and stealth, but NOT A SINGLE condition removal except shadowstep, which a needed stunbreaker and on 50sec cd. And health is something around 11-13k.

Btw, there is nothing to be ashamed of not being native english speaker, I´m not either but trying is everthing, am I right? ^^

There are a number of assumptions you have to make in order for stealth to “not be too strong”.

1) Your opponents class, amulet/stats and weapon set dictates whether or not they can counter pressure or “burst” the thief back. eg. warriors have some of the most telegraphed skills making it difficult to land large hits and definitely depending on ANY classes spec may not deal much at all in a 3s debuff reveal period.

2) “You can do whatever the thief is doing in stealth” is completely void. If they’re healing the thief better interupt the opponents heal with steal or headshot. And what’s stopping the thief from doing another backstab if their opponent is low enough instead of healing. Once again this is all dependent on the opponents class and build; however, the opening strike still means an advantage none-the-less against opposing squishies/hybrids.

3) So, don’t get hit by CnD and don’t let them blast/leap in a smoke field…? Easier said than done.

I’m not saying your tips are wrong; however, stealth needs a lot of tweaking or even a complete rework to be considered balanced. Coordinating a burst with top tier players or even friends (ie. teef/mes) with voice communication is pretty much guaranteed kills on bunkers without the opponent being able to react in time to invul. Knowing it’s coming isn’t an option either with LoS or stacking stealth. No one likes that unless they’re the ones doing it.

SilverWF.4789:

Zero Day.2594:

SilverWF.4789:

OP made another “blah-blah I’m not IMBA” thread.
Every1 know thieves are OP in 1vs1 fights, even in 1vs2 or more
Suggest him to create “5k range instant close gap + stealth + OMG-DPS haters read” thread – would be interesting to read his excuses.

I suggest you make a thread on why we should even bother listening to you.
Title it:
QQ haters read

Try to put some thought into it… I want to be entertained.

Lol, made my day.
I can say a lot, even more than previous writer, but:
a) I’m not a native English speaker, so it will be not easy to me – write waaaaalls of text.
b) I don’t see any sense here, since I’m nearly at 100% agree with HtFde.3856
c) Seems like ppl from some countries pretty like to debate some pretty obvious things – something that must not be debated. This is wasting of a time.
d) I wouldn’t be happier if able to prove another not_a_troll some obvious things. This is not a meaning of my life.

Thieves now – OP. At least in the WvW. Crazy high uptime of stealth + Pretty easy to pop stealth + Incredible mobility + Crazy high burst AND sustained + Non-cooldowns mechanic – all of this makes IMBA from thieves. And in some builds (in fact: in most of builds) add here High selfheal + Easy selfcleanse from conditions + Tons of evades.

Now thieves are counter for most of another classes and builds:
Direct damage dealers – you can’t hit something that you can’t see and take in target
Condition specs – your conditions will be cleansed before they can do their job.
Basically, only 1 counter possible: fast, non-target, low-cooldown, AOE, huge and direct damage with non-cleansable controls (stun, daze, etc) – like hammer warriors. And even here thieves have advantage, because they (and only they!) are able just to spam blindness, AOE-blindness!
…
Oh God, just stop it. This is meaningless. This game is 2 years old, all of this stuff was discussed year ago, but anyway every week we have another genius, popped from nowhere, with “another” (but the same) cool story about his vision of balance “classname – nerf!” or “classname – buff!”, proved with “another” (readied a tons of times already) wall of text, full of lie, double dealing and/or just moaning.

You know, there’s a circle of people that genuinely believe that thiefs are OP, why not just hang with them? I mean you guys would be so much happier togather, don’t need to prove anything to each other since you’re on the same page…
Like why are you so set out to “I wouldn’t be happier if able to prove another not_a_troll some obvious things.”, why not just forget about them and hang with the crowed that has the same “obvious” ideas as you?
It’s almost like you and your like minded buddies are the ones that are trolls….

Ario.8964:

Regarding perma stealth: with the normal specs being run perma stealth is no longer achievable. Yes you can chain CnD but that is expensive and without the right trait spread which frankly sacrifices more than it’s worth you will eventually run out of initiative and be left a sitting duck with no way to react to a situation.

Add the rendering bug and you can still remain completely invisible for 5+ minutes and if you ever get visible it is for less than a second. And C&D is not the way to go. When I want to stay hidden I switch to D/D D/P – when things look they could get uncomfortable I switch to SB D/P.

With P5 and 3 heartseekers you’re off much safer than with a backstab (unless you’re inside a tower and “hit” a wall, door or NPC) and you get more stealth per initiative. When low on initiative use heal (if you packed the cloak heal) blackpowder (also use SB 2 in the field) and sancturary to regain initiative. If you rely on the render bug and time your stealthes you can remain hidden for a long, long time.

Ario.8964:

Of course warriors and guards can’t stealth because that would be silly, their defenses rely on things other than stealth whereas a Mesmer and thief combinations is going to be very stealth heavy. That’s just the way it is, I’m not entirely sure I can argue with that point though because I agree it is highly obnoxious to try to hunt down 2 thieves and a mes rotating stealth in a group. At the same time though, if 10+ people are there the small group shouldn’t really kill anyone if they are paying attention so it’s more just trolling then it is being overpowered. Though that may just be a different view on the situation.

That’s my point – stealth is supposed to be a safety net for thieves and mesmers to compensate for their low armour. With mesmers stealth is ok because of their cooldowns. They cannot spam it – the stealth is short lived and apart from their personal stealth they have 2 group stealthes with lenghty cooldowns which makes them tactical options. In addition to that mesmers have blink for a gap closer and that’s pretty much it.

With thieves we’re at – you use the right word – trolling territory. ANet simply went overboard with the combination of ways to stealth, ways to grant stealth to others (a second thief, for example), amount of gap closers/openers and burst damage + the initiative system. Reminds me of GW 1 where it took ANet 2+ years to balance the Assassin … and that class didn’t even have stealth.

One last thing: When you say a thief will be revealed when he attacks … not so … one very nice combo is P5 and D2. The stealth is not applied when you jump through the smoke field but after the damage – so you can use smokescreen heartseek the enemy and remain stealthed despite having done damage. Quite effective if the enemy is already below 75% and you don’t backstab but roll-evade after heartseeker lands. Attrition without risk …

Coronit.9432:

Are we talking about 2 Thiefs/1 Mesmer that want to fight or trolling the people? Everyone can troll in some way and if they want to fight you never need 10-20 people, you need around 3 that can play, thats it…

Er .. no! I whish you get a visit from a well coordinated group at Golanta one day. You’d be amazed how many people it takes to keep that camp …

Coronit.9432:

Classes having problems to outheal burstdamage? Have you never seen an ele going from 5% fulllive, a guardian healing with meditations, an ingi doing his healcombo or a ranger using his 8k heal? Withdraw is used by most thieves and is very vulnerable to poison, 4500 heal going to 3000k isn´t fun. And are you really crying about Mug having heal? you know that ONE meditaton or shout does the same when traited?

Allt he while though, said classes are plainly visible and are being attacked + cooldown on shouts/blocks/meditations. A guardian/warrior if forced to go against 3 people who know how to evade will be down rather fast, despite all those blocks/heals. A thief, however, can – if things go wrong – stop attacking and concentrate on remaining hidden until things look ok again which will usually be less than 10 seconds.

Coronit.9432:

“Keep perma stealth but remove gap closers or burst damage
Keep gap closers and burst damage but do away with perma stealth”

Ok, then let guards keep their healing but remove blocks or burstdamage (medi-guard here)
Keep blocks but remove burstdamage or healing…

Or let ele keep burstdamage but remove boons o invuln/blocks

If you think about it you should realize demanding to remove a big part of a class doesn´t work without breaking it.

All of those classes you mention melt when in a 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 situation against opponents who know those classes and who can evade the bursts. Thieves, on the other hand, come out of these fights quite often as winner.

You cannot break the class – it is broken. I play one myself …
]

Coronit.9432:

What do you actually want, dozens thief able to keep at your butt but hitting like a wet noodle?

No – but I don’t want them to be able to hit like a truck and then disengage and come back for more. Have them use stealth to apporach, let them have a bonus when attacking from stealth, let them have high burst damage – but when they start to hit, deny stealth for 10+ seconds to them and remove most gap openers so that they – like most classes – will have to duke it out and win or die instead of their current … ooops – let me be 3000+ away … mechanism.

I’m honestly shocked at how many people are still talking about thieves being op. In any aspect of the game. As a multi class player, and someone who’s spent about 90% of my total game time in sPvP and WvW I can say that thieves are not op. I can be just as successful (sometimes more so) on my Ele, or especially my warrior, or even my mesmer.

The only reason they appear op is because they’re able to weave in and out of groups due to good stealth and mobility. But does that make them op? No! That makes them a profession. It’s what thieves do. The minute a thief can be more successful in outnumbered fights or perhaps 1v1 scenarios is the moment you can call them op. But they are not. Take anyone of equal skill level and put them against each other, one playing thief and the other playing another profession, and the match will be even.

And I’m so dang tired of people wining and wining about thieves as we get nerfed into the ground. I can remember the same thing happening to ele back in 2013 and it wasn’t fun. If you people would just shut your mouths and actually try playing thief for yourself, you’d be genuinely surprised at how difficult it is to do crap in any game mode. Especially with all these condition bunker builds going around.

MightyMicah.7451:

The minute a thief can be more successful in outnumbered fights or perhaps 1v1 scenarios is the moment you can call them op. But they are not. Take anyone of equal skill level and put them against each other, one playing thief and the other playing another profession, and the match will be even.

I was 1 vs 3 yesterday and won. Include “equal skill level” in that one as well as I won against guys from my former server who I know are bad – but I had no idea they were that bad.
Anyway, my friend and I are about equal skill level and I don’t stand a chance against his medi guard.

Jana.6831:

MightyMicah.7451:

The minute a thief can be more successful in outnumbered fights or perhaps 1v1 scenarios is the moment you can call them op. But they are not. Take anyone of equal skill level and put them against each other, one playing thief and the other playing another profession, and the match will be even.

I was 1 vs 3 yesterday and won. Include “equal skill level” in that one as well as I won against guys from my former server who I know are bad – but I had no idea they were that bad.
Anyway, my friend and I are about equal skill level and I don’t stand a chance against his medi guard.

I did two 1v3 on D/P 60206 in wvw with no uplevels a few days ago (with one opponent being distracted by a kata or a camp at first, thats what made it possible in the first place) and i dont hope anyone claims 60206 D/P is op…
And given equal skill level, a power thief should rarely have a chance against a medi guard, just as a mesmer rarely has a chance against a thief and an engi rarely beats a necro
Given equal skill level, dont forget that, and at some duels this may change because of mistakes or really good play/tactics, but its like that – everything has a counter or can be countered

In what context does the thread operate? PvP, WvW, PvE, duels?

Depending on context stealth can at the very least be extremely annoying as kitten. OP? Some times yes it is, sorry, but that is true IMO.

It is true that stealth also let the opponent a respite but it is not what makes the ability extremely advantageous. It is the fact it grant control of when a fight start and end until the thief succeed what he is trying or safely go away because he knows it can’t be achieved. No other profession has so many emergency back doors as this one mainly because of stealth and mobility. Sure others have stealth and great mobility too but the scope and abundance of it is nowhere near the thief.

In PVP stealth is not that great, I agree. I discard my mist form as an ele main for the same reason stealth is no so good in that context: capping.

In WvW, that same ability becomes an entirely different beast and the bane of so many squishy builds. It is more than likely the reason why so many play more on the bunkerish side more often than not IMHO.

tboneking.2531:

I actually agree with all of your points, except your first one. I believe thief DOES have the advantage while in stealth, because a) I cannot see what they are doing, and b) they CAN see what CDs I have popped, in order to prepare for the next fight, and c) I dont even know if they are there anymore. I personally feel that the fact that a thief can retreat into stealth and then run away, and apply pressure without even being there, is very overwhelming. Especially roaming in wvw with my friends, I feel we are inevitably hunted by a thief (which is your right and what you SHOULD be doing!) without the ability to confront our attacker because of the large expanse of space, and easy access to stealthed mobility. I will come out and say that my experience on thief is limited to a level 37 Labyrinth farmed char- but these are the experiences I have had on ALL the classes I play.

I hope I have maintained the friendly discussion atmosphere that is on this thread so far

You suck.

Jana.6831:

MightyMicah.7451:

The minute a thief can be more successful in outnumbered fights or perhaps 1v1 scenarios is the moment you can call them op. But they are not. Take anyone of equal skill level and put them against each other, one playing thief and the other playing another profession, and the match will be even.

I was 1 vs 3 yesterday and won. Include “equal skill level” in that one as well as I won against guys from my former server who I know are bad – but I had no idea they were that bad.
Anyway, my friend and I are about equal skill level and I don’t stand a chance against his medi guard.

Ikr they are such a pain in the kitten . Any type of good guard will give you a bad day, unless if you go condi(don’t)

HtFde.3856:

Coronit.9432:

Are we talking about 2 Thiefs/1 Mesmer that want to fight or trolling the people? Everyone can troll in some way and if they want to fight you never need 10-20 people, you need around 3 that can play, thats it…

Er .. no! I whish you get a visit from a well coordinated group at Golanta one day. You’d be amazed how many people it takes to keep that camp …

Coronit.9432:

Classes having problems to outheal burstdamage? Have you never seen an ele going from 5% fulllive, a guardian healing with meditations, an ingi doing his healcombo or a ranger using his 8k heal? Withdraw is used by most thieves and is very vulnerable to poison, 4500 heal going to 3000k isn´t fun. And are you really crying about Mug having heal? you know that ONE meditaton or shout does the same when traited?

Allt he while though, said classes are plainly visible and are being attacked + cooldown on shouts/blocks/meditations. A guardian/warrior if forced to go against 3 people who know how to evade will be down rather fast, despite all those blocks/heals. A thief, however, can – if things go wrong – stop attacking and concentrate on remaining hidden until things look ok again which will usually be less than 10 seconds.

Coronit.9432:

“Keep perma stealth but remove gap closers or burst damage
Keep gap closers and burst damage but do away with perma stealth”

Ok, then let guards keep their healing but remove blocks or burstdamage (medi-guard here)
Keep blocks but remove burstdamage or healing…

Or let ele keep burstdamage but remove boons o invuln/blocks

If you think about it you should realize demanding to remove a big part of a class doesn´t work without breaking it.

All of those classes you mention melt when in a 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 situation against opponents who know those classes and who can evade the bursts. Thieves, on the other hand, come out of these fights quite often as winner.

You cannot break the class – it is broken. I play one myself …
]

Coronit.9432:

What do you actually want, dozens thief able to keep at your butt but hitting like a wet noodle?

No – but I don’t want them to be able to hit like a truck and then disengage and come back for more. Have them use stealth to apporach, let them have a bonus when attacking from stealth, let them have high burst damage – but when they start to hit, deny stealth for 10+ seconds to them and remove most gap openers so that they – like most classes – will have to duke it out and win or die instead of their current … ooops – let me be 3000+ away … mechanism.

You suck as a person too.

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Ario; read https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/first You are wrong about thief class not be OP, you are wrong for thief stealth not problem, you call other not stealth player name " stealth hater", 2 year+ beta before you join guild wars 2; many player and thief say thief is Op and stealth same. Even arena net create own thread of thief class concern…. so here is chance to call arena net same name “stealth hater”. Arena net create thief class and know thief class better than you and all player. You Lose! Arena net Win!

DarkSyze.8627:

Ario; read https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/first You are wrong about thief class not be OP, you are wrong for thief stealth not problem, you call other not stealth player name " stealth hater", 2 year+ beta before you join guild wars 2; many player and thief say thief is Op and stealth same. Even arena net create own thread of thief class concern…. so here is chance to call arena net same name “stealth hater”. Arena net create thief class and know thief class better than you and all player. You Lose! Arena net Win!

If you read the opening post in the thread you linked, you’d know they made that thread so they’d have an excuse to merge/delete all the whining threads, Anet doesn’t ever actually say that they have a problem with thief, they just acknowledge that there are tons of threads about more or less the same thing. I can say I play any class I want, doesn’t mean I’m good at it or that my opinion is worth a kitten though. Some people that have been playing since beta say stealth is broken, some say those people are wrong. It really is just a he said she said situation using testimonials that are hardly justifiable. I mean, someone could say they’ve played GW2 for year, doesn’t mean they’re an expert, nor does it mean they mained a thief at any point in those years. They could’ve mained warrior that entire period, does that make them an expert on balance then?

Stealth isn’t OP.
Thief isn’t OP.

6 Points in Shadow Arts is just ridiculously strong but border-line necessary because the rest of the class is relatively bad.

Necrotize.2974:

DarkSyze.8627:

Ario; read https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k and https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/The-thief-and-its-gameplay-Your-feedback-Merged/first You are wrong about thief class not be OP, you are wrong for thief stealth not problem, you call other not stealth player name " stealth hater", 2 year+ beta before you join guild wars 2; many player and thief say thief is Op and stealth same. Even arena net create own thread of thief class concern…. so here is chance to call arena net same name “stealth hater”. Arena net create thief class and know thief class better than you and all player. You Lose! Arena net Win!

If you read the opening post in the thread you linked, you’d know they made that thread so they’d have an excuse to merge/delete all the whining threads, Anet doesn’t ever actually say that they have a problem with thief, they just acknowledge that there are tons of threads about more or less the same thing. I can say I play any class I want, doesn’t mean I’m good at it or that my opinion is worth a kitten though. Some people that have been playing since beta say stealth is broken, some say those people are wrong. It really is just a he said she said situation using testimonials that are hardly justifiable. I mean, someone could say they’ve played GW2 for year, doesn’t mean they’re an expert, nor does it mean they mained a thief at any point in those years. They could’ve mained warrior that entire period, does that make them an expert on balance then?

Thread is in thief forum not other class! or other forum. Many thief player who post, still write and still play thief; I check. Ok here is another thread in thief forum of thief nerf list by a thief player still write and still play thief class: Zero Day

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Nerf-Wish-list/first

Here is thread with article of thief player who still play.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mesmer-s-and-Thieves-the-cause-of-PvP-s-Meta/first

stealth thread from thief player
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-Suggestions-and-Changes

want more evidence?

The fact that you linked Zero’s “Nerf Wish list” thread leads me to believe you’re just trolling, or really don’t read, possibly both. But I guess since the word “Thief” is in a thread title, they must be OP right?

Necrotize.2974:

The fact that you linked Zero’s “Nerf Wish list” thread leads me to believe you’re just trolling, or really don’t read, possibly both. But I guess since the word “Thief” is in a thread title, they must be OP right?

Troll? I did research and say Zero Day still write and still play; still troll? Do same research and ask Zero Day if still write and play? Also, write to every thief player in all thread that he/she is troll; even to arena net who write thread of thief class for concern.

DarkSyze.8627:

Necrotize.2974:

The fact that you linked Zero’s “Nerf Wish list” thread leads me to believe you’re just trolling, or really don’t read, possibly both. But I guess since the word “Thief” is in a thread title, they must be OP right?

Troll? I did research and say Zero Day still write and still play; still troll? Do same research and ask Zero Day if still write and play? Also, write to every thief player in all thread that he/she is troll; even arena net who write thread of thief class.

“still write”
Yes

“still play”
Not really – I flip TP every day for 10 minutes… past couple of days i played some spvp as p/d condi/bleed You know the one that people QQ about and call cheese and easy, yup, that’s the one.

“still troll”
Very much so. Even when I don’t mean to.

As for the two threads you keep mentioning, the one that ANet opened up was to merge the dozens of QQ posts that we got on daily basis… Are those QQ posts right? Not really, there’s just a massive amount of people that like to whine, kitten, and be vocal about their bum rashes. My nerf wish list? Call it the wall of shame/QQ’s (those that are originally by someone…).