Guild Wars 2

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

DeceiverX.8361:

Stealth isn’t OP.
Thief isn’t OP.

Rangers are not OP, LB#2 is pretty OK.
Kkhxbye.

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Or they could just be genuinely annoyed. These forums are pretty much a testament to stubborn people who will refuse to admit anything once they’ve chosen a position. This isn’t too bad at first, but then the forums get flooded by people who just hate thieves due to their experience fighting them, which leads to plenty of “THIEF OP PLZ NERF” type threads. Coming up with new arguments might convince the less stubborn, but the general progress of events is

1. Someone complains that thief is broken

2. Helpful people offer advice for how to beat thieves, people who disagree offer their arguments(which vary in politeness depending on the OP)

3. If the OP is stubborn/trolling/etc, they reject all help and usually make some flawed argument that has been regurgitated since the beginning of this game.

4. Helpful people leave, all that is left are the people that disagree, who have probably dealt with the exact same type of thread dozens of times prior.

After a certain number of times, it just gets old. “Thieves are OP cause I played a thief once and won”, “All these people are thieves and say thief is OP”, “(Some ramble about stealth and cross class comparisons)”. If everyone could have civil arguments and not spam threads with the same topic, hostile replies would be a lot less frequent.

Necrotize.2974:

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Or they could just be genuinely annoyed. These forums are pretty much a testament to stubborn people who will refuse to admit anything once they’ve chosen a position. This isn’t too bad at first, but then the forums get flooded by people who just hate thieves due to their experience fighting them, which leads to plenty of “THIEF OP PLZ NERF” type threads. Coming up with new arguments might convince the less stubborn, but the general progress of events is

1. Someone complains that thief is broken

2. Helpful people offer advice for how to beat thieves, people who disagree offer their arguments(which vary in politeness depending on the OP)

3. If the OP is stubborn/trolling/etc, they reject all help and usually make some flawed argument that has been regurgitated since the beginning of this game.

4. Helpful people leave, all that is left are the people that disagree, who have probably dealt with the exact same type of thread dozens of times prior.

After a certain number of times, it just gets old. “Thieves are OP cause I played a thief once and won”, “All these people are thieves and say thief is OP”, “(Some ramble about stealth and cross class comparisons)”. If everyone could have civil arguments and not spam threads with the same topic, hostile replies would be a lot less frequent.

Read my post properly. I never said anything about nerfing the thief.

Nephrite.6954:

Necrotize.2974:

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Or they could just be genuinely annoyed. These forums are pretty much a testament to stubborn people who will refuse to admit anything once they’ve chosen a position. This isn’t too bad at first, but then the forums get flooded by people who just hate thieves due to their experience fighting them, which leads to plenty of “THIEF OP PLZ NERF” type threads. Coming up with new arguments might convince the less stubborn, but the general progress of events is

1. Someone complains that thief is broken

2. Helpful people offer advice for how to beat thieves, people who disagree offer their arguments(which vary in politeness depending on the OP)

3. If the OP is stubborn/trolling/etc, they reject all help and usually make some flawed argument that has been regurgitated since the beginning of this game.

4. Helpful people leave, all that is left are the people that disagree, who have probably dealt with the exact same type of thread dozens of times prior.

After a certain number of times, it just gets old. “Thieves are OP cause I played a thief once and won”, “All these people are thieves and say thief is OP”, “(Some ramble about stealth and cross class comparisons)”. If everyone could have civil arguments and not spam threads with the same topic, hostile replies would be a lot less frequent.

Read my post properly. I never said anything about nerfing the thief.

I know, and I wasn’t accusing you of it. I was just saying that people here can get hostile because they have the exact same arguments over and over and make zero progress. They make a well-reasoned argument, only to have it ignored and complained about. So saying that he’s out of arguments because he’s annoyed/shifting the focus isn’t really truthful since even if he did post an argument, chances are it would be ignored or disregarded and the cycle would continue.

Ah. Okay let my proceed with shooting this kitten down then plus it’s kinda fun you know. I just enjoy proving myself right from time to time

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Dude read the thread properly. Look at the sentences below, did it state anything about wvw only?! He clearly stated wvw & pvp, about adding awareness to your surroundings. You know what? I’m just gonna summarise everything for your simple little mind alright? I don’t think thieves are OP, this thread is to prevent unnecessary future nerfs for the thief. Is that clear to you? I’m just kittened off at people like you who don’t pay enough attention to oneself and have some self doubt before you do something. You can’t even write properly! And go wanna,wanna,wanna? Wtf are you stating?!

SilverWF.4789:

DeceiverX.8361:

Stealth isn’t OP.
Thief isn’t OP.

Rangers are not OP, LB#2 is pretty OK.
Kkhxbye.

They’re not, either. Even RF isn’t that amazing. Fire/Air procs are.

Necrotize.2974:

Nephrite.6954:

Necrotize.2974:

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Or they could just be genuinely annoyed. These forums are pretty much a testament to stubborn people who will refuse to admit anything once they’ve chosen a position. This isn’t too bad at first, but then the forums get flooded by people who just hate thieves due to their experience fighting them, which leads to plenty of “THIEF OP PLZ NERF” type threads. Coming up with new arguments might convince the less stubborn, but the general progress of events is

1. Someone complains that thief is broken

2. Helpful people offer advice for how to beat thieves, people who disagree offer their arguments(which vary in politeness depending on the OP)

3. If the OP is stubborn/trolling/etc, they reject all help and usually make some flawed argument that has been regurgitated since the beginning of this game.

4. Helpful people leave, all that is left are the people that disagree, who have probably dealt with the exact same type of thread dozens of times prior.

After a certain number of times, it just gets old. “Thieves are OP cause I played a thief once and won”, “All these people are thieves and say thief is OP”, “(Some ramble about stealth and cross class comparisons)”. If everyone could have civil arguments and not spam threads with the same topic, hostile replies would be a lot less frequent.

Read my post properly. I never said anything about nerfing the thief.

I know, and I wasn’t accusing you of it. I was just saying that people here can get hostile because they have the exact same arguments over and over and make zero progress. They make a well-reasoned argument, only to have it ignored and complained about. So saying that he’s out of arguments because he’s annoyed/shifting the focus isn’t really truthful since even if he did post an argument, chances are it would be ignored or disregarded and the cycle would continue.

It would help to stall these discussions, if ANet would take a stand on the individual arguments. But since there is only silence emenating from the sacred halls it’s up to the users to “discuss” these issues.

It’s been a long time but I feel that class balance issues were way better discussed in GW 1 and while I almost never agreed with Izzy’s point of view it was at least … understandable and the direction the game was taking was transparent.

GW 2 is much more murky

Nephrite.6954:

HtFde.3856:

Nephrite.6954:

Stupid whiners should really shut up and play the profession long enough to find out if it’s really OP or not. PM me as a thief and I’ll get on my engi to show you if thieves are OP or not. I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK. All I had to do was spam bombs, stack might, plant turrets spam some more and my opponent will either be close to dead or retreating. I wipe the floor with thieves on my engi…

Hostile wording and shifting of focus are usually a sign that one has run out of arguments – in addition to that calling pretty well worded critique “whining” without providing any more agruments is a tad … childish? Stomp your foor and go wanna, wanna, wanna play thieeeeeeef as is!!!

And – just for your information – the discussion is about WvW. Almost noone in this thread ever complained about thieves being OP in sPvP.

Sometimes it really helps to read a few posts before ranting …

Dude read the thread properly. Look at the sentences below, did it state anything about wvw only?! He clearly stated wvw & pvp, about adding awareness to your surroundings. You know what? I’m just gonna summarise everything for your simple little mind alright? I don’t think thieves are OP, this thread is to prevent unnecessary future nerfs for the thief. Is that clear to you? I’m just kittened off at people like you who don’t pay enough attention to oneself and have some self doubt before you do something. You can’t even write properly! And go wanna,wanna,wanna? Wtf are you stating?!

Not getting less aggressive, are you? About not being able to write properly … I have to ask for forgiveness that English is my second langauge only – would you prefer to handle the rest of the conversation in German to substitute for my poor English?

I was also referring to your reply and it strikes me as a bit odd that you refer to yourself as “he” now … In your rant, er – excuse me – exquisitely formulated chain of arguments – may I offer an extract:

• I’ve main a thief for almost a year now and still get my kitten wiped when ever I make a single mistake in duels but once I get on my engi… kitten I rarely lost a duel unless if they were really good players(which was rare).Spvp ranked,unranked and hotjoin pfffffff no problem and I’ve only played that class for LESS THAN A WEEK.*

sPVP, ranked, unranked and hotjoin … now, excuse me if I still feel justified to point out that this does not include WvW – and – I still feel justified – I pointed out that most of the complaints in this thread were not against thief in sPvP but in WvW.

A thief in sPvP is at a disadvantage – maps are more narrow, cannot decap or cap in stealth – tiny cap circles. None of this is of relevance in WvW + ascended weapons, applied fortitude and strenght + buff food makes for more damage on all classes and burst classes benefit from this more because health + toughness doesn’t scale up that much. One of the reasons why longbow 2 on a ranger in PvP is a joke but is pretty powerful in WvW. What helps the thief is a bit of a handicap for the Engineer you mention – a very powerful class in sPvP because of its ability of area denial and the tiny capping circles … WvW has way more room and much bigger capping circles so they’re less effective in WvW than in sPvP.

We’re still going on about thieves and WvW and stealth, though …

@DarkSyze.8627
Take a deep look into the “Nerd-wish-list” and see how rediculous most of them (wishes) are, which is one of the reasons the thread exists…

@HtFde.3856
You talked about to “get a visit from a well coordinated group” of good players. You don´t think that 3 good players which coordinate ad play together SHOULD excel against some average wvw-players?
And to prove that its not only possible with thieves I have a video for you…
You´re welcome
Its one year old, so remember that there was still more damage possible, onto them and made by them, you see a thief with them? Thieves can provide some help in wvw-fights by cahsing eles, necros, rangers, other thiefs and mesmers around zergs or in smallscale-fights, but other classes provide MUCH better teamsupport so they get a hell of buffs and interesting combos together.

One thief against 3 players? Either the three players are terrible or upleveled. You know that an ele can outheal a lot damage, too? A good player can fight 3 bad player everytime. "Against 3 people who know how to evade " isn´t enough, they should know their classes, too. But I think we presuppose that. Even without that… Had an interesting case today. Saw a thief fighting to people in front of our keep (both bad, I know them more or less), I interferred and he stealthed. So I thought he would retreat (attacking 3 players in front of a keep in primetime is suicide and there were more people visible) so I continued my way dodging a little bit randomly being bored and then it happened that I RANDOMLY,without knowing that he was there, evaded his backstab, saw the “evade” appearing, turned around asap and dodged again, second later he revealed, I bursted him, interrupted his heal and killed him. I that case other classes could have been with aegis, more armor/health, ports, invuln, (random-dodge xD), automatic-fear, whatever, result, thief dead, me alive.
And don´t tell me he could have escaped easily, I don´t care, every ingi, ele, or warri could have, they have their ways. Even guards can walk miles before dropping while taking damage.

You don´t think there is enough time to burst down a thief or kill him before he escapes? Here comes another video:
You´re welcome again

“ascended weapons, applied fortitude and strenght + buff food makes for more damage on all classes and burst classes benefit from this more”

on ALL classes…
on burst classes more? What about perplexity, condition-bufffood, dire-gear, even more health, etc etc. Toughness doesn´t scale that good after 2500 armor, yes. You don´t get extra toughness via guardstacks, you get vita, everyone get it. Engineers are very powerfull in roaming or smallscale in wvw, too.

You know that stealth isn´t the main defense of mesmers, right? it is the combining of stealth + clones + buffs + conditions
Thieves defence comes from stealth (stronger) + mobility + buffs + conditions
I know that thieves are very strong against mesmers and there has to be done something, but I think guards are worse for thieves than thieves for mesmers ^^

And when there is a thief is going for blackpowder + heartseeker como, where does he usually stand then? Right in front/side/back, so make him feel your swords/hammer/bows whateve, he can´t and will not stand there forever.
And I don´t remember of reading about rendering-porblems in combination with thiefs since 2013, maybe its just your (and your friends) problem?

@DeceiverX.8361
I don´t think air/fire proccs are OP, but you can always prove me wrong. They are the reason S/D acro started to be a thing (together with strength/pack rune), which is considered beeing lower in meta than D/P.

Ario.8964:

stealth in general) is op.
The first thing I will say is flat out stealth is not op

You’ve failed already, stealth as a mechanic or rather invisibility as it is most times, is OP in nearly every MMO, now you can try to offest that OPness with weaknesses elsewhere, but that doesn’t alter that as a mechanic it is hugely imbalanced in favour of the stealther, is ridiculously strong as both a defensive and offensive mechanic, introduces guesswork on the part of the opponent and is generally a hugely cheesy mechanic, which is why scrubs love it so much…

Which is why a certain game didn’t have stealth, because the devs were honest enough back then to tell the truth, it is so OP, such a bad mechanic, that it is unbalanceable.

Sorry I haven’t responded in a bit, got a little busy with life and didn’t really find a reason to post back as most people are just being ridiculous with their claims.

@zinkz
Ok, you seem to think you know everything there is to know about this game and balance, so tell me:
How is stealth OP? And don’t give me the useless answers that people spam. I want specific evidence, reasons behind it that I haven’t already addressed previously specific to gw2. And don’t create the overused situation of “1 thief keeps stealthing himself and we need 20 people to fight him” because that really has no merit at this point. And, because you claim to know what is OP and what isn’t tell us how you would balance the situation we are in.

Have fun! I look forward to seeing what you have for me.

@DarkSyze
You posted a while back and told me to watch koroshi’s vid on perma stealthing. I have seen it before but there is one huge error you have made with it. At this point, perma stealth is still possible on the D/D spec for thief BUT it requires you to spec in a way that sacrifices too much of your utility for it to be worth using. When I say perma stealth is no longer possible, I mean it is no longer possible for a thief to maintain stealth indefinitely being supplied only by himself with stealth without having to change his spec to do so. I hope that clears up that little miscommunication and adds a little more ground to debate over.

The second source you provided is not really Anet stating that there are issues with the thief. The way I understood it was that they merged multiple complaining threads about the thief so it would 1) Be easier for forum users to locate a place to voice their own concerns and 2) a way for anet to be able to scan over people’s opinions and ideas to find out if there actually was a problem with thief (i.e. they didn’t claim for thief to have a problem but they were checking over the views of players to make sure)

Hope that addresses everything you said. If you have anything else you’d like to put out let me know and I’ll be happy to discuss it with you.

To an experienced player stealth is a get out of jail free card. One class can stealth over and over again, all throughout the fight, none of the other classes can, I have to call that overpowered as in not balanced for competitive play.

Again GW2 is the only PvP I’ve ever seen that allows constant stealth once your in combat. Wonder why people say its OP as in not balanced for a PvP game mode? They must have played just about anything else in the MMO PvP genre.

Coronit.9432:

@HtFde.3856
You talked about to “get a visit from a well coordinated group” of good players. You don´t think that 3 good players which coordinate ad play together SHOULD excel against some average wvw-players?
And to prove that its not only possible with thieves I have a video for you…
You´re welcome

Hm – seems the first reply got eaten up – let’s try again: Nice video but it has nothing to do with the problem I mentioned of having a well coordinated enemy team consisting of 2 thieves + 1 mesmer/engineer camp at Golanta.

Coronit.9432:

And I don´t remember of reading about rendering-porblems in combination with thiefs since 2013, maybe its just your (and your friends) problem?
Nice video though it has nothing to do with my point of “keep Golanta when you have a good enemy 2 thief + 1 mesmer/engi enemy team camping there”.

Well – yesterday we had to flush out a thief from Klovan and there were 3 other players with me and … for the first 2 minutes we never saw him but for the little black cloud. Finally understood his pattern and layed out a bit of AoE and forced him do gain stealth somewhere else and this actually made him appear for a second or so which was enough to get rid of him.

Problem is you never know if people play legit or not – and it is especially hard to tell with thieves. Flying golems and such are pretty obvious as is a stealthing Necro … a stealthing thief, though, … how can you know if he uses a stealth hack or not

Chairface.9036:

To an experienced player stealth is a get out of jail free card. One class can stealth over and over again, all throughout the fight, none of the other classes can, I have to call that overpowered as in not balanced for competitive play.

Again GW2 is the only PvP I’ve ever seen that allows constant stealth once your in combat. Wonder why people say its OP as in not balanced for a PvP game mode? They must have played just about anything else in the MMO PvP genre.

Well – and this is not even what it was at the beginning. You could stack stealth ad infinitum – we had a lot of fun stacking more than a minute and waltz into the enemy base fortress and scare players there … it took ANet a while to cap stealth so that you could no longer gain minutes of it and – sigh – they added the “teleport out of enemy spawn” feature.

In addition to that thieves could cap/decap/cap-freeze while being stealthed. Not that much of a problem in sPvP – you know where the thief is because the capping circle is really tiny but a big problem in WvW.

I admit I did sometimes troll – I loved to climb the ladder in the NW camp, sit up there and prevent recapture – sometimes the group below gave up on recapping because they never figured out where I was …

At the moment I would not say that thief is OP in sPvP – he’s pretty strong in a deathmatch map but when you need to cap … there’s better classes with better team synergy. In WvW though …

I was actually pretty … angry … when I realized that ANet did not have different skill sets for PvP and PvE- It took them ages to finally split the skills depending on game mode in GW 1 and only after endless complaints in the forum because Izzy broke yet again a PvE class for his oh-so-precious PvP balance.

Add to that the scaling problem of ascended gear + buff food – another step ANet took I don’t think much of – and you have a very unbalanced game mode. So PvP is ok – you have the same rules for everyone (bar the runes/skills you need to unlock but, hey, that’s motivation) and WvW remains an unbalanced mess. To start sorting that out I’d apprechiate if ANet would split the skills in PvE. sPvP and WvW versions so that they could tune initiaive cost, damage, cooldown, etc. per game mode. In PvE against high end, upscaling monsters you need more damage than you need in WvW.

HtFde.3856:

Chairface.9036:

To an experienced player stealth is a get out of jail free card. One class can stealth over and over again, all throughout the fight, none of the other classes can, I have to call that overpowered as in not balanced for competitive play.

Again GW2 is the only PvP I’ve ever seen that allows constant stealth once your in combat. Wonder why people say its OP as in not balanced for a PvP game mode? They must have played just about anything else in the MMO PvP genre.

Well – and this is not even what it was at the beginning. You could stack stealth ad infinitum – we had a lot of fun stacking more than a minute and waltz into the enemy base fortress and scare players there … it took ANet a while to cap stealth so that you could no longer gain minutes of it and – sigh – they added the “teleport out of enemy spawn” feature.

In addition to that thieves could cap/decap/cap-freeze while being stealthed. Not that much of a problem in sPvP – you know where the thief is because the capping circle is really tiny but a big problem in WvW.

I admit I did sometimes troll – I loved to climb the ladder in the NW camp, sit up there and prevent recapture – sometimes the group below gave up on recapping because they never figured out where I was …

At the moment I would not say that thief is OP in sPvP – he’s pretty strong in a deathmatch map but when you need to cap … there’s better classes with better team synergy. In WvW though …

I was actually pretty … angry … when I realized that ANet did not have different skill sets for PvP and PvE- It took them ages to finally split the skills depending on game mode in GW 1 and only after endless complaints in the forum because Izzy broke yet again a PvE class for his oh-so-precious PvP balance.

Add to that the scaling problem of ascended gear + buff food – another step ANet took I don’t think much of – and you have a very unbalanced game mode. So PvP is ok – you have the same rules for everyone (bar the runes/skills you need to unlock but, hey, that’s motivation) and WvW remains an unbalanced mess. To start sorting that out I’d apprechiate if ANet would split the skills in PvE. sPvP and WvW versions so that they could tune initiaive cost, damage, cooldown, etc. per game mode. In PvE against high end, upscaling monsters you need more damage than you need in WvW.

This video show same problem with thief stealth. Again here is thief show how to Perma-Stealth and take tower; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QVy_C-Z0-k
Thief is a joke profession i ever see and play in mmo. No mmo game company make joke profession like this; even square enix; thief or even ninja and wow;rogue.

This is wow and other game mmo stealth definition and description? (copy/paste website)

Stealth;

“Stealth is a rogue ability that prevents other creatures from detecting the stealthed player unless particularly close.

Attacking and most actions such as looting will cancel Stealth. Taking any damage will cancel Stealth, including direct, AoE and DoT damage, and environmental damage such as fires. However, Stealth does not break from falling damage, unless of course it kills the stealthed unit. You cannot enter Stealth while in combat".

Guild Wars 2 Stealth definition and description is complete opposite and different. Guild Wars 2 stealth don’t care about challenge or suffer consequence for mistake over and over so result; make thief Perfect/God Mode.

Example; in family, child; if parent give child everything and tell child, “everything you do is good”, and not teach child what is good and bad? not teach child discipline or give and teach consequence when child break rule (child do not know if break rule because parent say, :“everything you do is good”) , is good for child life? is good for child present-future?

Thief is example child; i feel sad for thief profession; this is why child thief feel hate and angry. One very important reason is; Perfect child thief have no choice but take everything parent arena net give. Perfect child thief have no Freedom to learn and experience different thing. Perfect child thief do not know what is challenge and fair, just run and hide. Perfect make child thief slave and not have freedom like other children profession for experience different thing and be corrected/discipline for make bad choice like other profession. Again, Perfect child thief do not know what challenge; fun is; because stealth make run away and hide any time want. When choice and freedom is take from you, to be the Perfect child profession, is sad.

HtFde.3856:

Well – yesterday we had to flush out a thief from Klovan and there were 3 other players with me and … for the first 2 minutes we never saw him but for the little black cloud. Finally understood his pattern and layed out a bit of AoE and forced him do gain stealth somewhere else and this actually made him appear for a second or so which was enough to get rid of him.

Congrats you learned how to counter a thief. Do you still want to claim stealth is op or do you realize that you have to figure out a pattern to get to him like with every other class? (Get through Aegis, evade Evicerate, deal with clones and so on).
I was told that it’s rather hard to cheat in this game and I do know of a hacker, I’m pretty sure that I’ve met someone who’s using scripts but other than that; it’s easy to claim someone is cheating – it’s a bit harder to understand the mechanics of the game.

Jana.6831:

HtFde.3856:

Well – yesterday we had to flush out a thief from Klovan and there were 3 other players with me and … for the first 2 minutes we never saw him but for the little black cloud. Finally understood his pattern and layed out a bit of AoE and forced him do gain stealth somewhere else and this actually made him appear for a second or so which was enough to get rid of him.

Congrats you learned how to counter a thief. Do you still want to claim stealth is op or do you realize that you have to figure out a pattern to get to him like with every other class? (Get through Aegis, evade Evicerate, deal with clones and so on).
I was told that it’s rather hard to cheat in this game and I do know of a hacker, I’m pretty sure that I’ve met someone who’s using scripts but other than that; it’s easy to claim someone is cheating – it’s a bit harder to understand the mechanics of the game.

Nobody ever said it was impossible to counter a thief or eventually flush him/her out. Of course you can! All people have said was that in a WvW context stealth can be too advantageous and frustrating at times even despite all the nerf we saw over the course of the game’s life. It just goes to show just how ridiculous that ability used to be initially. It is still a monstrously powerful ability even if you can counter it or learn to cope with it. But implying that being able to counter something = it not being too powerful overall is a fallacious way to frame it. You don’t have to put as much effort and manpower to counter and flush other professions all things being equal is the point.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jana.6831:

HtFde.3856:

Well – yesterday we had to flush out a thief from Klovan and there were 3 other players with me and … for the first 2 minutes we never saw him but for the little black cloud. Finally understood his pattern and layed out a bit of AoE and forced him do gain stealth somewhere else and this actually made him appear for a second or so which was enough to get rid of him.

Congrats you learned how to counter a thief. Do you still want to claim stealth is op or do you realize that you have to figure out a pattern to get to him like with every other class? (Get through Aegis, evade Evicerate, deal with clones and so on).
I was told that it’s rather hard to cheat in this game and I do know of a hacker, I’m pretty sure that I’ve met someone who’s using scripts but other than that; it’s easy to claim someone is cheating – it’s a bit harder to understand the mechanics of the game.

Nobody ever said it was impossible to counter a thief or eventually flush him/her out. Of course you can! All people have said was that in a WvW context stealth can be too advantageous and frustrating at times even despite all the nerf we saw over the course of the game’s life. It just goes to show just how ridiculous that ability used to be initially. It is still a monstrously powerful ability even if you can counter it or learn to cope with it. But implying that being able to counter something = it not being too powerful overall is a fallacious way to frame it. You don’t have to put as much effort and manpower to counter and flush other professions all things being equal is the point.

Well, maybe I got it wrong but I was pretty certain that the guy I answered to called stealth OP – and he just said that he killed a thief within a second after he figured out where the thief was hiding. Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

HtFde.3856:

You cannot break the class – it is broken. I play one myself …

You also said your server (Dzagonur) is constantly outnumbered (in one of the white sword threads) while Dzagonur was ticking more than of what the other 2 servers had combined. You lost any credibility for me back then and anytime I read your posts, I don’t see a reason to change that.

…Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

A thief that has space can be very hard to catch even with a lot more than 3 people. Glassy or not.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

…Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

A thief that has space can be very hard to catch even with a lot more than 3 people. Glassy or not.

Yeah but the scenario was a thief in a tower – most people don’t waste their time chasing after one enemy anyway, no matter the class.

Jana.6831:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

…Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

A thief that has space can be very hard to catch even with a lot more than 3 people. Glassy or not.

Yeah but the scenario was a thief in a tower – most people don’t waste their time chasing after one enemy anyway, no matter the class.

I have very seldom seen anybody leave an objective without being pretty sure they drove off all enemies. Specially in the case of a tower since the search is pretty easy to make as oppose to a keep or SM

A lone thief can cap a tower solo without any problem. Therefore, many will run all over the place just to make sure he doesn’t have that chance. Also, if only one make that search, chances are he will be back-stabbed while trying to find the thief. It usually end up requiring many just to make sure the tower won’t be a free lunch.

If it’s a mesmer it is even more important for obvious reasons, but a mesmer is far easier to drive out due to the amount and duration of the stealth at their disposal. Still, going back to the original idea, you can’t really leave a thief inside your tower unless you don’t care about defending your objectives and you can’t reliably seek and dispose/drive out a thief alone.

In other word, stealth can be a pain in the kitten for a lot of players. It also probably doesn’t help that so many who play the profession seem to take pleasure in behaving like professional trolls… the behavior of many has certainly tainted the perception associated with that ability.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jana.6831:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

…Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

A thief that has space can be very hard to catch even with a lot more than 3 people. Glassy or not.

Yeah but the scenario was a thief in a tower – most people don’t waste their time chasing after one enemy anyway, no matter the class.

I have very seldom seen anybody leave an objective without being pretty sure they drove off all enemies. Specially in the case of a tower since the search is pretty easy to make as oppose to a keep or SM

A lone thief can cap a tower solo without any problem. Therefore, many will run all over the place just to make sure he doesn’t have that chance. Also, if only one make that search, chances are he will be back-stabbed while trying to find the thief. It usually end up requiring many just to make sure the tower won’t be a free lunch.

If it’s a mesmer it is even more important for obvious reasons, but a mesmer is far easier to drive out due to the amount and duration of the stealth at their disposal. Still, going back to the original idea, you can’t really leave a thief inside your tower unless you don’t care about defending your objectives and you can’t reliably seek and dispose/drive out a thief alone.

In other word, stealth can be a pain in the kitten for a lot of players. It also probably doesn’t help that so many who play the profession seem to take pleasure in behaving like professional trolls… the behavior of many has certainly tainted the perception associated with that ability.

Alright:
“We fought a thief in a tower with three people because we couldn’t figure out where he hid, after a while we got it and killed him”
“You don’t need 3 players to kill a thief”
“You have to have more than 1 player to chase the thief all over the map”
“I was talking about the tower scenario”
“But… stealth op, we need a zerg to capture a thief”
“Buuuttt videolink”

Do you guys realize that you try to prove me wrong without any arguments as I wasn’t talking about that case?

Edit: And you only need me to kill a thief in a tower, because I’m smart and know how to counter them.

Jana.6831:

Alright:
“We fought a thief in a tower with three people because we couldn’t figure out where he hid, after a while we got it and killed him”
“You don’t need 3 players to kill a thief”
“You have to have more than 1 player to chase the thief all over the map”
“I was talking about the tower scenario”
“But… stealth op, we need a zerg to capture a thief”
“Buuuttt videolink”

Do you guys realize that you try to prove me wrong without any arguments as I wasn’t talking about that case?

Edit: And you only need me to kill a thief in a tower, because I’m smart and know how to counter them.

I can’t speak for others but, personally, I was not trying to prove anything so much as share a different POV than yours. Apparently, we didn’t experiment the same WvW and i play since day one…

Beside, where are YOUR arguments? I mean, you accuse others of providing none, which is blatantly false, but just in this post you do nothing more than throw a bunch of affirmations on the screen. Chief among them being that you are sooo much smarter and skillful… good for you.

Nothing you said so far change my perception that in some context stealth is just too strong. Not ALL context, SOME context. There is something unhealthy about that mechanic IMHO.

It’s simple: What I said was true: once you know the thief mechanics you don’t need 3 guys to kill him. Sweeping after a cap is always a good idea and there are all kinds of classes hiding in towers as all of them can solo towers, depending on their skill level.

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.
That a mesmer is easier to catch is your personal opinion.

Want more arguments? Because all we’re doing is running in a circle – you don’t like thieves, we get it, you haven’t figured out their mechanics, we get it, but well.. too bad, I guess.

Jana.6831:

It’s simple: What I said was true: once you know the thief mechanics you don’t need 3 guys to kill him. Sweeping after a cap is always a good idea and there are all kinds of classes hiding in towers as all of them can solo towers, depending on their skill level.

So many problems with the way you present things and read what others say. For one, I never said that you NEED 3+ people to do all that. You CAN do so with just one albeit not RELIABLY. A word I previously bolded and italized. More importantly, your “argument”, " It is simple: what I say is true" is not an argument. It is a statement. The bootstrapping power of your argumentation is pretty strong…

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.
That a mesmer is easier to catch is your personal opinion.

It is not an opinion it is a fact based on the numbers of stealth sources, the average duration and mobility. FACT, not opinion. There are no ways for a solo mesmer to perma stealth that I know of.

Beside, I main an ele and I solo towers all the time and I really don’t see what it has to do with the topic at end. Unless, of course, you genuinely think my ele would be just as hard to find and kill than a profession that can make itself invisible possibly indefinitely. I don’t know for you but from my experience, and pure basic logic, it is pretty counter intuitive to entertain that kind of belief. Unless the thief in the tower is a total noob of course…

Want more arguments? Because all we’re doing is running in a circle – you don’t like thieves, we get it, you haven’t figured out their mechanics, we get it, but well.. too bad, I guess.

More argument you say? How about you provide just one to begin with. So far your argument is pretty close to “its true because I say so”. From where I come from it’s a logical fallacy.

I don’t see a problem at all, especially since I initially didn’t refer to anything of what you wrote and had no interest to do so anyway, but I seem to be bored.

Mesmers have clones and a lot of people have their troubles with mesmers because of that. I have no problem with either of them, so it’s your personal opinion and not a fact.

And, to you as well: have fun.

Jana.6831:

Alright:
“We fought a thief in a tower with three people because we couldn’t figure out where he hid, after a while we got it and killed him”
“You don’t need 3 players to kill a thief”
“You have to have more than 1 player to chase the thief all over the map”
“I was talking about the tower scenario”
“But… stealth op, we need a zerg to capture a thief”
“Buuuttt videolink”

Do you guys realize that you try to prove me wrong without any arguments as I wasn’t talking about that case?

Edit: And you only need me to kill a thief in a tower, because I’m smart and know how to counter them.

It seems like, you need exactly 2 players to chase/kill a thief. That or any number over 1 but not 3 – that just seems silly… why not 3?

That is tricky, I agree.
You didn’t read the zerg part though and one of my favourite wvw scenarios was the following: I was running alone on the western side of SM (I was a worse noob than now, btw) and a zerg came running towards me. So I popped my shadow refuge and they ran over me, I was downed. So I warned in map chat that there was a zerg running towards Quentin’s Lake and tried to heal myself. Well, stealth didn’t last that long, a single thief came a long, spanked me and then stood there and waited – for his whole zerg to come back to finish me off. In the meantime “my” zerg arrived and finished the enemy zerg – all because of a single thief.
So, sorry, I don’t know the exact numbers you need to kill a thief.

Jana.6831:

It’s simple: What I said was true: once you know the thief mechanics you don’t need 3 guys to kill him. Sweeping after a cap is always a good idea and there are all kinds of classes hiding in towers as all of them can solo towers, depending on their skill level.

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.
That a mesmer is easier to catch is your personal opinion.

Want more arguments? Because all we’re doing is running in a circle – you don’t like thieves, we get it, you haven’t figured out their mechanics, we get it, but well.. too bad, I guess.

Jana, i want challenge your argument.
Jana, have you seen this thread? this thread been here long than you; yes 2 years include beta tester player.

1. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Stealth-Attacking-consistently-while-totally-100-stealth

2. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Im-done-playing-a-thief-and-most-likely-GW2/first#post270109

3. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/it-is-possible-thief-can-stealth-almost-2-min-in-WvWvW/first#post400497

4. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Thief-overpowered

So can you say all player include thief player who post in forum don’t know what they talk about? Or do not know their thief class? Or make up problem?

Last question; Is everything player include thief player say from 2 years+beta in forum is here today for thief class?

I want to know just know if they are make up complain and story of thief class stealth, that’s all.

Jana.6831:

That is tricky, I agree.
You didn’t read the zerg part though and one of my favourite wvw scenarios was the following: I was running alone on the western side of SM (I was a worse noob than now, btw) and a zerg came running towards me. So I popped my shadow refuge and they ran over me, I was downed. So I warned in map chat that there was a zerg running towards Quentin’s Lake and tried to heal myself. Well, stealth didn’t last that long, a single thief came a long, spanked me and then stood there and waited – for his whole zerg to come back to finish me off. In the meantime “my” zerg arrived and finished the enemy zerg – all because of a single thief.
So, sorry, I don’t know the exact numbers you need to kill a thief.

So… the enemy zerg wasted their time on you (for w/e reason), and then got wiped out by your zerg…

What kind of a mickey mouse operation were they running…

O.O holly molly, I was reading through your conv. with sirb, and the guy just kept getting angrier and angrier… I wanted to write something to him but I’m afraid of him lashing out on me… Take a chill pill man, it’s a game, relaxe, breath in and out… I fear there’s a bigger issue than GW2 Thief’s stealth for you. Nerves can’t recover you know..

DarkSyze,
I’m not supposed to tell you this, it’s top-secret-insider-information from within ANet’s development team back from 6 years ago when they were still developing the game. In early testing phases, stealth didn’t have a timer and it lasted infinitely, worse yet it was never removed! And at that time the modifier for back-stab was x500 (not x2.4 as it is now)… Many developers where complain at each other that they were constantly getting back-stabbed for 1,000,000 damage while they were testing classes.
True story.
I believe it’s still relevant to today.
Please use this information in your crusade for justice.

Zero Day.2594:

DarkSyze,
I’m not supposed to tell you this, it’s top-secret-insider-information from within ANet’s development team back from 6 years ago when they were still developing the game. In early testing phases, stealth didn’t have a timer and it lasted infinitely, worse yet it was never removed! And at that time the modifier for back-stab was x500 (not x2.4 as it is now)… Many developers where complain at each other that they were constantly getting back-stabbed for 1,000,000 damage while they were testing classes.
True story.
I believe it’s still relevant to today.
Please use this information in your crusade for justice.

The good ol’ days, when stabbing someone in the back crashed servers and overloaded combat logs.

So many saying thief is balanced simple because its not impossible to catch/kill them.

That’s not the point, the point is they are not balanced with the other classes in many different scenarios, especially WvW.

Zero Day.2594:

So… the enemy zerg wasted their time on you (for w/e reason), and then got wiped out by your zerg…

What kind of a mickey mouse operation were they running…

Yeah, Quentin’s Lake would’ve been lost for us if they hadn’t come back. I laughed pretty hard

Edit: And I do wonder why your thread has been closed as the only reason I can think of would be “whining about classes without a reason” and that’s actually what people do in this thread – not that I want it to be closed.

Chairface.9036:

So many saying thief is balanced simple because its not impossible to catch/kill them.

That’s not the point, the point is they are not balanced with the other classes in many different scenarios, especially WvW.

Neither is every other class. Why is that even a point?

Jana.6831:

Zero Day.2594:

So… the enemy zerg wasted their time on you (for w/e reason), and then got wiped out by your zerg…

What kind of a mickey mouse operation were they running…

Yeah, Quentin’s Lake would’ve been lost for us if they hadn’t come back. I laughed pretty hard

Edit: And I do wonder why your thread has been closed as the only reason I can think of would be “whining about classes without a reason” and that’s actually what people do in this thread – not that I want it to be closed.

Well it might also be because it was an organized movement as opposed to just a bunch of random people (some though are always) complaining.

yolo swaggins.2570:

Chairface.9036:

So many saying thief is balanced simple because its not impossible to catch/kill them.

That’s not the point, the point is they are not balanced with the other classes in many different scenarios, especially WvW.

Neither is every other class. Why is that even a point?

Because, they’re unbalanced in killing noobs and giving bum rashes – hence they’re the most unbalanced.

@DarkSyze.8627
Have you really linked 4 ! 2 YEARS old ! threads there? I mean…. REALLY?
I think you should take a deep breath and think about the situation back there. And what happened since then. I was the golden time of thieves with heartseeker spam beeing efficient, D/D beeing played in pvp by top-players, ele, guards, ingis, all of them were stronger, Mug could crit, etc etc…
And btw, I have always, always a stealth trap in my inventory… on each class… Anet gave them to us so I have them ready. Used them once on two D/P-thiefs outside of sn, poor guys :/
You are not obligerated to use them, but they exist, together with everything else working wonders against thieves. And talking about direct counters to stealth, they actually exist, too.
Utility Goggles
Sic ’Em

to that…
you know that he speaks about timing C&D coorectly so you chain it for constant stealth. First in that case you can´t use backstab/sneak attack because that gives you revealed. Then you should know when you use that mechanic on kittenual build you inititative will drain at some point. No initiative = no weapon attacks ecxept AA. And there is something else, something very very important… what happens when a guard has block up? Or a mesmer plays smart and doesn´t give you the opportunity to stealth on their clones (that mesmers really exist). Or you have strong AOE around you. Or makes space between the thief and him. Or blind him…
You should know that the thief will loose initiative regardless. 2 time that and he doesn´t have initiative. Maybe he casts Shadow refuge or Shadowstep? AOE or maybe autoattack like a ranger longbow or chasing him with warri GS 3+5…

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Jana.6831:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

…Of course it can be frustrating, every class can be frustrating. And you don’t need 3 guys to catch a glassy thief.

A thief that has space can be very hard to catch even with a lot more than 3 people. Glassy or not.

Yeah but the scenario was a thief in a tower – most people don’t waste their time chasing after one enemy anyway, no matter the class.

I have very seldom seen anybody leave an objective without being pretty sure they drove off all enemies. Specially in the case of a tower since the search is pretty easy to make as oppose to a keep or SM

A lone thief can cap a tower solo without any problem. Therefore, many will run all over the place just to make sure he doesn’t have that chance. Also, if only one make that search, chances are he will be back-stabbed while trying to find the thief. It usually end up requiring many just to make sure the tower won’t be a free lunch.

If it’s a mesmer it is even more important for obvious reasons, but a mesmer is far easier to drive out due to the amount and duration of the stealth at their disposal. Still, going back to the original idea, you can’t really leave a thief inside your tower unless you don’t care about defending your objectives and you can’t reliably seek and dispose/drive out a thief alone.

In other word, stealth can be a pain in the kitten for a lot of players. It also probably doesn’t help that so many who play the profession seem to take pleasure in behaving like professional trolls… the behavior of many has certainly tainted the perception associated with that ability.

Bahahahahaha so we faced the same problem the last time I roamed what my friend(a glass cannon thief) did was awesome lol he freakin used trip wired on the thief lol landed a solid backstab! The thief wasn’t even mad when he got downed. Just carry a reveal debuff trap if you roam a lot, that’s why the trap exist. You don’t even need a fancy utility like traps. It’s really worth it once you get the thief

Jana.6831:

HtFde.3856:

Well – yesterday we had to flush out a thief from Klovan and there were 3 other players with me and … for the first 2 minutes we never saw him but for the little black cloud. Finally understood his pattern and layed out a bit of AoE and forced him do gain stealth somewhere else and this actually made him appear for a second or so which was enough to get rid of him.

Congrats you learned how to counter a thief. Do you still want to claim stealth is op or do you realize that you have to figure out a pattern to get to him like with every other class? (Get through Aegis, evade Evicerate, deal with clones and so on).
I was told that it’s rather hard to cheat in this game and I do know of a hacker, I’m pretty sure that I’ve met someone who’s using scripts but other than that; it’s easy to claim someone is cheating – it’s a bit harder to understand the mechanics of the game.

You didn’t read my post, hm? Imagine a mesmer in a keep … imagine any other class than thief … 2 minutes in there? Hardly! And then in a keep you need many people with untargeted AoE to get him down and … Aegis doesn’t work on doors and walls which provide stealth when hit.

So, sorry – yes: Thief in a keep/tower is nothing but a troll class and the perma stealth allows that stealth and, yes, it is OP compared to any other class – including a mesmer – who you want to flush out of a tower/keep.

Ario.8964:

Sorry I haven’t responded in a bit, got a little busy with life and didn’t really find a reason to post back as most people are just being ridiculous with their claims.

@zinkz
Ok, you seem to think you know everything there is to know about this game and balance, so tell me:
How is stealth OP? And don’t give me the useless answers that people spam. I want specific evidence, reasons behind it that I haven’t already addressed previously specific to gw2. And don’t create the overused situation of “1 thief keeps stealthing himself and we need 20 people to fight him” because that really has no merit at this point. And, because you claim to know what is OP and what isn’t tell us how you would balance the situation we are in.

Have fun! I look forward to seeing what you have for me.

I’m not the one you wrote to but I’ll jump on the train anyway. Stealth is especially op in a tower/keep as the thief is able to stealth off walls and gates allowing him to stealth far away from enemy players so you need a lot of players with untargeted AoE skills to get rid of one.

We can discuss stealth being OP or not with a thief who wants to fight. But it is a completely different story with a thief who just wants to remain hidden. Add the infernally bad downed state and resurrection mechanism this game has and you’ll know why a living thief poses a threat until the last enemy corpse has finally been force respawned.

Well, the possibility to gain stealth via C&D+walls/doors was removed with a patch someday last year and somehow (sneaky sneaky) came back. Maybe anet thought thieves need to have that ability? I took that change back then like any other change before. I adapted to it. More difficult to survive with D/D in towers, easier for D/P. It provides some interesting map-awareness. But I don’t really care about that because my main goal in wvw are fun fights. And in that fights surprise, awareness and retreat are all important when fighting outnumbered. And when playing with friend there is everything with me, even necros, which retreat with me, maybe by providing short duration via shadow refuge to engage again after regroup.

Jana.6831:

It’s simple: What I said was true: once you know the thief mechanics you don’t need 3 guys to kill him. Sweeping after a cap is always a good idea and there are all kinds of classes hiding in towers as all of them can solo towers, depending on their skill level.

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.
That a mesmer is easier to catch is your personal opinion.

Want more arguments? Because all we’re doing is running in a circle – you don’t like thieves, we get it, you haven’t figured out their mechanics, we get it, but well.. too bad, I guess.

The “mechanics” is to hit a door or wall or heartseeker through their smoke field or backstab those silly NPCs …with a big enough structure they do it as far away from a player as possible. And that’s why you need either a ranger with Sic’em or a nicely placed stealth trap or … lots of people.

Your claim that “once you know the mechanics” is just a strawman’s argument. The argument about mesmer is perfectly valid as a mesmer – depending on build – has 3 main options to stealth (veil, decoy and mass invisibility + torch if carried) and one teleport (blink). All skiles have cooldowns which means the mesmer has one chance to get away and hide until his cooldowns are gone or he is dead.

A thief can stealth much longer by much more means and has way more gap openers.

Some people will now say “Oh, yes – but that requires a build for that that is not combat viable” … another strawman’s argument. When I enter a keep when things look shaky at best I usually hide from the very beginning, retrait and change weapons and play the hiding game if things go wrong because my main focus is to hide and possibly revive a memser and not to fight so my build is perfectly viable for what I am doing.

HtFde.3856:

Jana.6831:

I am a thief myself and have capped around 30 towers solo, I hid in few of them, I usually used a cata to open them, sometimes a treb.

The “mechanics” is to hit a door or wall or heartseeker through their smoke field or backstab those silly NPCs …with a big enough structure they do it as far away from a player as possible. And that’s why you need either a ranger with Sic’em or a nicely placed stealth trap or … lots of people.

Your claim that “once you know the mechanics” is just a strawman’s argument. The argument about mesmer is perfectly valid as a mesmer – depending on build – has 3 main options to stealth (veil, decoy and mass invisibility + torch if carried) and one teleport (blink). All skiles have cooldowns which means the mesmer has one chance to get away and hide until his cooldowns are gone or he is dead.

A thief can stealth much longer by much more means and has way more gap openers.

Some people will now say “Oh, yes – but that requires a build for that that is not combat viable” … another strawman’s argument. When I enter a keep when things look shaky at best I usually hide from the very beginning, retrait and change weapons and play the hiding game if things go wrong because my main focus is to hide and possibly revive a memser and not to fight so my build is perfectly viable for what I am doing.

I know, you don’t need to tell me anything about thief mechanics. And in fact I also have a mesmer – a stealth build.

Edit, because I got you wrong the first time around:
What people meant is that a perma stealth build sacrifices the survivability of thieves, we can be invisible for a pretty long time without speccing into it, true, but as I said, we aren’t invulnerable in that time, so you’ve got to use your brain to catch a thief – that goes for mesmers as well.

Edit² and the mesmers also have the advantage that they can portal, so once the mesmer is discovered he can put a portal down, jump out and port the zerg in, happened more than once.

The “no other class can [something ]” arguments really fall flat. Every class in this game can do something unique. Also, considering they removed the ability to CnD off walls in keeps, and now it is back, either it’s a bug that you should report, or they thought there was enough counterplay with stealth disruptor traps, arrow carts, sic em, and utility goggles.

Maugetarr.6823:

The “no other class can [something ]” arguments really fall flat. Every class in this game can do something unique. Also, considering they removed the ability to CnD off walls in keeps, and now it is back, either it’s a bug that you should report, or they thought there was enough counterplay with stealth disruptor traps, arrow carts, sic em, and utility goggles.

No it doesn’t fall flat because not all unique feature are equally problematic. It is yet another logical fallacy to entertain the illusion every problems are equal. Wall exploit or not, that ability has contexts in which it is at the very least extremely powerful (more so than pretty much any other ability if you ask me) even if it is definitely not OP in spvp.

Jana.6831:

What people meant is that a perma stealth build sacrifices the survivability of thieves, we can be invisible for a pretty long time without speccing into it, true, but as I said, we aren’t invulnerable in that time, so you’ve got to use your brain to catch a thief – that goes for mesmers as well.

You lose a lot of damage, yes, but when your main intention is to remain hidden in the keep/tower to solo-cap it when empty or to revive teammates then stealth and not damage is your priority. Since we can now retrait “on the fly” all you need is a few moments out of combat. I actually preferred the old way of talking to the class trainer (cost removal is ok, though) because some classes prefer benefit more from this and on-the-fly retraiting has made dungeons even less appealing than before.

Jana.6831:

Edit² and the mesmers also have the advantage that they can portal, so once the mesmer is discovered he can put a portal down, jump out and port the zerg in, happened more than once.

Portal is a very powerful thing and I guess there’s at least half as many posts about mesmer portals as there’s about thieves and stealth. Catch is, though, portals are visible, make a sound and can be a very bad experience for people using it because your enemies will know exactly where your zerg will appear …